Orachimaru vs Kisame

[Benjamin King]

Kisame shits.

 

[blazekev90]

with samehadas healing powers poison wouldn't be much good, however kisame will still be absorbing oros chakra which is an advantage for obvious reasons.....I didn't think about him swimming to the bottom of the dome and merging with the environment but this is assuming he can out swim kisame in the water, I greatly doubt he can. Hand to hand combat oro wins due to speed? are you kidding me? his grass long blade would be against samehada......I really can't see him having an advantage in this scenario.

You haven't given a way for oro to actually take kisame down....

Healing doesn't cure poison, it heals wounds. If the was the Sakura wouldn't have needed an antidote. Poison enters the blood stream and would need to be removed.

Orochimaru wouldn't be able to out swim his without distractions to occupy Kisame. As I stated, he has snakes at his disposal.

The sword varies in size, as shown against the 3rd Hokage. Also, Orochimaru has shown faster hand speed while wielding his weapon than Kisame has.

I mentioned ways he'd defeat Kisame:
1) poison
2) stab/behead
3) swallow him (summoning)

If it was desperate attempt to takes over his body. Not my personal choice, but an option.

 

[LustyLover]

Like I said, show me a scan of a clone summoning and then I'll agree with you. The scroll and blood of the original is required. You're saying the clone is going to summon Manda to a location despite Manda being in that location and already being summoned by the original. You're ignoring Manda's size as well

Orochimaru already possesses the markings necessary to summon Manda on his body at all times [

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]. Orochimaru has the ability to produce Kisei Bunshin due to his Zetsu body. These Bunshin are flawless in their making and will copy Orochimaru perfectly [

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]. The clone will possess the seal required to perform summonings from the Ryuchi Cave. Orochimaru simply supplies the clone his own blood before he sends it underground. Manda's size is irrelevant when the crater they reside in is the size of the moon. I doubt Manda is that big. And, yes, he can summon his summoning wherever he so seeks to. Nothing suggests otherwise.​

Kisame can sense and can travel underground with high speed

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He would kill the clone himself or have his clones do the job considering they can even use techniques like the little water dome. So that entire point about the clone summoning Manda is irrelevant even if they could.

Kisame can sense with Samehada. Where's this disbelief coming from?

Kisame would be able to sense Oro's clone and he'll know he hasn't retreated. Oro goes to ryuchi cave, then he loses since he left the battlefield.

Kisame can only sense if he merges with Samehada. Regardless, once Orochimaru witnesses Kisame sending a clone after his own, Orochimaru has his own clone activate Kagero to entirely negate any and all sensing capabilities [

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]. Kisame will have no idea where Orochimaru's clone is located, so there's really nothing he could do at all.​

Edit: I apologize then. I probably didn't realize I was.

Thanks.​

 

[Blackdeath667]

i might debate later....this battle is quite hard to think about

 

[RicardoA]

Generally the same thing kunais are used for. Doesnt make them useful

Except this isn't a kunai nor a simple sword and Kisame isn't immune to cuts.

Ok so? Current Orochimaru does have access to Manda. I would say the same thing about Sasuke.

Huh, what? >_>
First you claim Manda is dead therefore he doesn't count, now you claim current Oro has access to Manda? That didn't make any sense.
Sasuke has Aoda.

It can steal chakra. Doesnt have to harm it. 8 branches is just a transformation jutsu. All it can do is ram things.

No. That jutsu grows stronger by absorbing ninjutsu, making most attempts at stopping it futile and making the Suiton stronger, that's why that jutsu is a great weapon. The effect remains the same as every other shark related jutsu.
I didn't know Kisame and his sharks were immune to getting smashed, torn appart or eaten alive either. Just because we never saw for example, the Konoha elders jumping from tree to tree (like every other ninja), doesn't mean they can't do it.
Claiming Hydra can only ram things, only because it didn't have the opportunity to show anything else, is denying its physiology and everything that jutsu stands for.

Just like Hiruzen is "canonically" stronger than Ay and Onoki. This is a versus colosseum as you said. Its a big hydra that rams.

A vs colosseum doesn't invalidate Hiruzen's superiority over Onoki, Ay, Mei and the 4th Kazekage. When we know who's stronger there's no point in guessing. A vs colosseum is (or should be) used to assess who'd win a determined match up.
Kisame was never said to be stronger than Oro. What's your point?

The sharks can confront them though and its not hard to see where Orochimaru is launching his snakes. Theres no plausible way to you can even say how 1000 fodder snakes > 1000 water sharks.

I don't see your point... Why would Oro have to hide to launch his snakes? And why are you twisting my words? When did i claim Oro's snakes would overpower the sharks? You completely ignored the possibility i brought to the table.
The snakes don't have to bother with the sharks, they can slip through them and go for Kisame. Oro can also go underground, avoid Kisame's incoming jutsus and go straight for the source.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Still don't see what could be Kisame's answer to a Boss Summon like Manda.
He can also be temporarily restrained by Oro's juinjutsu.

 

[Oblivionx]

orochimaru might pull this off but it'll be a tough match.... they are probably on same level without edo tensei...

 

[Haizaki]

Didn't expect Oro to have all these. All I see is Zetsu in all the scans even though Oro can't use his abilities as he has never shown them at all. Well that's a complete different story but Kisame should win still.

Orochimaru already possesses the markings necessary to summon Manda on his body at all times [

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].​

What does this mean? That his clone would have the same and summon Manda as well? This at all doesn't show anything when that's the original.

Orochimaru has the ability to produce Kisei Bunshin due to his Zetsu body. These Bunshin are flawless in their making and will copy Orochimaru perfectly [

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]. The clone will possess the seal required to perform summonings from the Ryuchi Cave. Orochimaru simply supplies the clone his own blood before he sends it underground. Manda's size is irrelevant when the crater they reside in is the size of the moon. I doubt Manda is that big. And, yes, he can summon his summoning wherever he so seeks to. Nothing suggests otherwise.

This is not Zetsu and Orochimaru vs Kisame. He can make perfect duplicate of people he touches. Not himself since it is a process that allows him to duplicate when he absorbs another's chakra. He's not doing that to himself. Besides you're looking at it from the point of view that Kisame has no intel.

What I don't understand is the process itself. Oro is going to create a clone, summon Manda, give the clone his own blood, do all of that before Kisame can act? This is too unrealistic Lol

Kisame can only sense if he merges with Samehada. Regardless, once Orochimaru witnesses Kisame sending a clone after his own, Orochimaru has his own clone activate Kagero to entirely negate any and all sensing capabilities [

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]. Kisame will have no idea where Orochimaru's clone is located, so there's really nothing he could do at all.​

Doesn't matter. Samehada can also sense and can give Kisame his position.

Again this is unrealistic.

- Oro can't give his clone his blood while in water.

- Even if he does create clones outside, Kisame creates clones. There's no way Oro would witness Kisame's clones going after his clones when he won't be seeing a thing

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- I don't know what Kagero is as it doesn't even show on google Lol. As soon as he infuses chakra for any technique, Samehada would sense the chakra meanwhile Oro cannot sense .

 

[DMT]

orochimaru eats this shark for breakfast

 

[blazekev90]

@Evani

You aren't required to draw blood when summoning, you can use hand seals.

Also, in making a Zetsu clone, they'll already have Orochimaru's chakra as he's the one making the clones.

Clones share intel
"A characteristic that is unique to the Shadow Clone Technique is that any experience the clones gain during their existence is transferred to the user once they are dispersed. This makes the technique ideal for spying, since the user can simply send a clone to spy on a target, then have the clone disperse itself without returning, to pass the information back to the user.[8] Similarly, because they are clones of the original, any chakra that the clone possesses will return to the original after being dispelled.[9] Conversely, the reverse is also true and the original is still able to manipulate the chakra of the clones."

 

[LustyLover]

What does this mean? That his clone would have the same and summon Manda as well? This at all doesn't show anything when that's the original.

As long as the clone has the correct seal he has the ability to summon the intended target, and since the Bunshin would be an exact replica of Orochimaru it'll be the right seal. It doesn't matter that it's not the original so long as the seal is drawn correctly, which it will be seeing as the clone is copying everything about Orochimaru flawlessly.​

Didn't expect Oro to have all these. All I see is Zetsu in all the scans even though Oro can't use his abilities as he has never shown them at all. Well that's a complete different story but Kisame should win still.

This is not Zetsu and Orochimaru vs Kisame. He can make perfect duplicate of people he touches. Not himself since it is a process that allows him to duplicate when he absorbs another's chakra. He's not doing that to himself. Besides you're looking at it from the point of view that Kisame has no intel.

Since you seem to misunderstand, I'll leave this here:

The Rebirth Jutsu gives him the ability to access to the arsenal of the victims he swallows. Further, evident as he wanted Itachi's, Kimimaro's, and Sasuke's bodies in order to access to their powers. He swallowed Zetsu, and the latter is genetic clone created from Hashirama's tissues. It's proven, possessing the DNA of Hashirama gives access to his Mokuton. Orochimaru is in possession of Zetsu's body, allowing him to use Mokuton and Zetsu's arsenal.

What is so hard to grasp of this?

He CAN use Zetsu's abilities. @Bold, that's exactly what I mean. So long as Orochimaru has the chakra of the individual he wishes to replicate via Kisei Bunshin he can do so. Orochimaru simply uses his own chakra to create an exact copy of himself. Odds are that his normal clones are Kisei either way. There's not much to look into with this.​

What I don't understand is the process itself. Oro is going to create a clone, summon Manda, give the clone his own blood, do all of that before Kisame can act? This is too unrealistic

Orochimaru cutting himself in order to give his clone blood (a clone that doesn't even require hand seals to make) would approximately take two seconds of his time at most. Unless Kisame becomes Minato, he's simply not going to be able to stop Orochimaru before he does this. Manda is only summoned once inside the Water Dome. Everything else will be prepared immediately.​

Doesn't matter. Samehada can also sense and can give Kisame his position.

Again this is unrealistic.

Both Orochimaru and his clones are utterly, completely, undeniably unable to be sensed. The only way he's been able to be sensed before is by Naruto sensing his malevolent intent. Unless Samehada possesses that ability, Oro and his clones simply will NOT be sensed. His chakra is hidden completely, just like Karin. He's not getting sensed. Until we actually see Orochimaru/a Zetsu get sensed the way Samehada senses people, it's not happening. Zetsu has already been attempted to be sensed the way Samehada senses and it didn't work. I see no reason for Samehada to work if its way of sensing already failed in the past.​

Oro can't give his clone his blood while in water.

That's why I said he does it before the dome's up.​

Even if he does create clones outside, Kisame creates clones. There's no way Oro would witness Kisame's clones going after his clones when he won't be seeing a thing

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Irrelevant, because he'll have no idea just where to send his clones. Orochimaru's clone will be unable to be sensed. Besides, when Bee said that he was clearly referring to the fact that beyond the water he couldn't see anything because the quantity of it. If what he said was true and he truly couldn't see then how did he fight the entire time, knowing exactly where Kisame was each time, while "seeing nothing?" Regardless, Orochimaru gained the ability of sensory through Zetsu [

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]. He'll be able to know where his clones go and when he uses them.​

I don't know what Kagero is as it doesn't even show on google . As soon as he infuses chakra for any technique, Samehada would sense the chakra meanwhile Oro cannot sense .

The English term is Mayfly. It allows Orochimaru and or his clone(s) to move at high speeds while completely merged with the Earth. When his clone uses chakra it'll be too late. All that's required once he does is to slam his palm on the ground. That'll be faster than the time it takes for Kisame's clone to swim out of a lake-sized dome and search for his clone.​

I'd also like to add that with Mayfly all that's necessary to escape it is for Orochimaru to initiate Mayfly and move downwards until he enters the Earth. There's literally nothing Kisame can do about that.​

 

[Haizaki]

@Evani

You aren't required to draw blood when summoning, you can use hand seals.

Yes you do. Only Nagato while alive didn't do that. The rest were Edos like Itachi, Hanzo. Oro used blood while summoning Manda with Kabuto. He used blood while summoning Rashoumon. Nothing supports that.

Also, in making a Zetsu clone, they'll already have Orochimaru's chakra as he's the one making the clones.

I know but this doesn't change anything I said though.

Clones share intel
"A characteristic that is unique to the Shadow Clone Technique is that any experience the clones gain during their existence is transferred to the user once they are dispersed. This makes the technique ideal for spying, since the user can simply send a clone to spy on a target, then have the clone disperse itself without returning, to pass the information back to the user.[8] Similarly, because they are clones of the original, any chakra that the clone possesses will return to the original after being dispelled.[9] Conversely, the reverse is also true and the original is still able to manipulate the chakra of the clones."

They do and I never said they didn't. I'm pretty sure you got this from the wiki.

How is it you guys use the wiki and the wiki itself supports the fact that Oro cannot use Zetsu's ablities.

 

[blazekev90]

Yes you do. Only Nagato while alive didn't do that. The rest were Edos like Itachi, Hanzo. Oro used blood while summoning Manda with Kabuto. He used blood while summoning Rashoumon. Nothing supports that.


I know but this doesn't change anything I said though.



They do and I never said they didn't. I'm pretty sure you got this from the wiki.

How is it you guys use the wiki and the wiki itself supports the fact that Oro cannot use Zetsu's ablities.

Sorry bro, but you don't. As explained here:

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Jman never stated it as a requirement. Edo using summon should already be proof of that. Orochi was handicap most if the series and couldn't wield hand seals, his tattoo was convenient.

As Jman is someone who normally draws blood to summon toads, he used hand seals here:

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I only read one of your post and you claimed Orochimaru wouldn't know what transpired through his clones.

I didn't feel like putting it in my own words. That's too much typing on a cell phone. Wiki has Orochimaru listed as Mokuton user. Though that is irrelevant to my post.

 

[Haizaki]

@Holyeyes I'll reply with my PC soon.

Sorry bro, but you don't. As explained here:

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Jman never stated it as a requirement. Edo using summon should already be proof of that. Orochi was handicap most if the series and couldn't wield hand seals, his tattoo was convenient.

As Jman is someone who normally draws blood to summon toads, he used hand seals here:

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I only read one of your post and you claimed Orochimaru wouldn't know what transpired through his clones.

I didn't feel like putting it in my own words. That's too much typing on a cell phone. Wiki has Orochimaru listed as Mokuton user. Though that is irrelevant to my post.

You made your point. Though this further shows a clone isn't summoning Manda.


Then you didn't understand what I meant. He said if oro witnesses his clones and I was saying he's not witnessing in water since he won't be seeing them.

Good. This then shows he can use Mokutun but not Zetsu's abilities like Mayfly. Not to mention he hasn't shown them at all and he's not listed as a user.

 

[LustyLover]

Good. This then shows he can use Mokutun but not Zetsu's abilities like Mayfly. Not to mention he hasn't shown them at all and he's not listed as a user.

You made your point. Though this further shows a clone isn't summoning Manda.

How do you figure that?​

 

[blazekev90]

@Holyeyes I'll reply with my PC soon.


You made your point. Though this further shows a clone isn't summoning Manda.


Then you didn't understand what I meant. He said if oro witnesses his clones and I was saying he's not witnessing in water since he won't be seeing them.

Good. This then shows he can use Mokutun but not Zetsu's abilities like Mayfly. Not to mention he hasn't shown them at all and he's not listed as a user.

Idk you came to that conclusion. Summoning requires chakra, clones consist of chakra and blood (though them having blood still confuses me). Therefore, a clone would have no issue performing this ability.

The fodder has his eyes closed, he's no shinobi lol

I'm too tired to address the Zetsu/Orochi argument. I've been doing that too much lately lol

 

[Haizaki]

How do you figure that?​

"Place down the hand you signed the contract with" which required the users blood with his finger print.

Simply because Oro isn't listed as a user so I choose not to believe since he hasn't shown any of his techniques. Not even one to indicate he can at least use it alongside with the fact that he couldn't escape IT even with that body.

 

[Haizaki]

Idk you came to that conclusion. Summoning requires chakra, clones consist of chakra and blood (though them having blood still confuses me). Therefore, a clone would have no issue performing this ability.

The fodder has his eyes closed, he's no shinobi lol

I'm too tired to address the Zetsu/Orochi argument. I've been doing that too much lately lol

That first scan proves clones can't summon.

Lol he couldn't see cuz of the water.

Eh I doubt he can use Zetsu's ability. The guy hasn't shown one at all. I used to think so but I've been doubting it cuz of this arc.

 

[LustyLover]

"Place down the hand you signed the contract with" which required the users blood with his finger print.

Simply because Oro isn't listed as a user so I choose not to believe since he hasn't shown any of his techniques. Not even one to indicate he can at least use it alongside with the fact that he couldn't escape IT even with that body.

That's because not the entirety of his body is made up of Zetsu. There's Hashirama's cells in there as well.

@Bold, what are you trying to say?

 

[blazekev90]

That first scan proves clones can't summon.

Lol he couldn't see cuz of the water.

Eh I doubt he can use Zetsu's ability. The guy hasn't shown one at all. I used to think so but I've been doubting it cuz of this arc.

The scan proves nothing as such. If your focused on the "same hand" statement, there's two issues. 1) a clone is technically using the same hand. 2) we've seen others summon Manda for Orochimaru as long as they use his blood, since they neither had his chakra or snake contract. Clones possess both the users blood and chakra, therefore they can summon.

There's nothing hinting that the water itself hindered his eyesight. Nevertheless, he'd have snake to sense for him.

Your doubt goes against the purpose of his jutsu. He takes a host for their abilities, not just their body. Itachi's body sucked but his power was great. You can obviously disagree if you wish

 

[Haizaki]

That's because not the entirety of his body is made up of Zetsu. There's Hashirama's cells in there as well.

@Bold, what are you trying to say?

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