[Discussion] Would you mind the dynamic of the M3 being destroyed?

[Love Cook]

If it was the case, Oda would not have created the supernova and worse generation system to seperate Luffy and Zoro from Sanji, as well as calling Zoro vice-captain by a fellow supernova(Urouge) and a strawhat fanboy(Bartolomeo), would not have given Luffy and Zoro better trainings and so on. When will people finally acknowledge Zoro is the stronger of the two? No one is saying Zoro will roflstomp him, but Sanji is clearly weaker. Zoro will win after a high diff fight

Nah, but a fanboy can dream

 

[Bogard]

Nah, but a fanboy can dream

What do you mean?

 

[Punk Hazard]

If it was the case, Oda would not have created the supernova and worse generation system to seperate Luffy and Zoro from Sanji, as well as calling Zoro vice-captain by a fellow supernova(Urouge) and a strawhat fanboy(Bartolomeo), would not have given Luffy and Zoro better trainings and so on. When will people finally acknowledge Zoro is the stronger of the two? No one is saying Zoro will roflstomp him, but Sanji is clearly weaker. Zoro will win after a high diff fight

That's....exactly what he said. Third strongest, and a bit weaker than Zoro, aka, a high diff fight. Why did you get so defensive?

BTW, bounties don't accurately reflect strength like that, unless you wanna say Doffy is weaker than Luffy and Law.

Also, there has also been cases where people thought Zoro was the captain. That shows outside opinion of the crew isn't always right, so just because Urouge called him first mate, doesn't mean he's first mate. The WG, who are more knowledgable than Urouge, call Chopper their pet. I suppose he's not really their doctor then.

But I genuinely don't recall Barto calling Zoro the first mate/vice-captain, could you show me a scan of this please?

Besides, first mate is whoever will take charge should something happen to Luffy, which Luffy has declared to be Usopp actually. Usopp being vice-captain is actually more canon than anyone else being vice-captain xD

And I honestly don't see Luffy having a ranking order like that. We've seen different people have a voice of authority before, Sanji has authority over the crewmembers he was with against Big Mom. Zoro had a voice of authority when it came to the incident with Usopp, where everyone agreed not to take him back unless he apologized. The Strawhats seem to have a system where Luffy is number one authority, and the rest are equal. I don't think Luffy is the type to have a "first mate" per se.

 

[Bogard]

That's....exactly what he said. Third strongest, and a bit weaker than Zoro, aka, a high diff fight. Why did you get so defensive?

BTW, bounties don't accurately reflect strength like that, unless you wanna say Doffy is weaker than Luffy and Law.

Also, there has also been cases where people thought Zoro was the captain. That shows outside opinion of the crew isn't always right, so just because Urouge called him first mate, doesn't mean he's first mate. The WG, who are more knowledgable than Urouge, call Chopper their pet. I suppose he's not their doctor really, then.

Besides, first mate is whoever will take charge should something happen to Luffy, which Luffy has declared to be Usopp actually.

A bit weaker to me is extreme difficulty fight. I don't see a fight between Zoro and Sanji going to extreme

I went defensive because it's not the first time he makes the statement, so i wanted to argue with him on his view on it

Bounty has nothing to do with my statement. I'm talking about the title itself(supernova/worse generation). It's clearly a title that holds weight in the new world at the moment with worse generations occuring on the greatest events in the NW according to Brownbeard or representing the future pirates that would surpass previous generations gears according to Law

It's about portrayal here. Oda put Zoro a supernova from the worse generation as well as calling him a vice-captain by a fellow one as well as a fanboy(so admiring the crew more than anyone else) to put it in our face that Zoro is the stronger one

 

[Punk Hazard]

A bit weaker to me is extreme difficulty fight. I don't see a fight between Zoro and Sanji going to extreme

I went defensive because it's not the first time he makes the statement, so i wanted to argue with him on his view on it

Bounty has nothing to do with my statement. I'm talking about the title itself(supernova/worse generation). It's clearly a title that holds weight in the new world at the moment with worse generations occuring on the greatest events in the NW according to Brownbeard or representing the future pirates that would surpass previous generations gears according to Law

It's about portrayal here. Oda put Zoro a supernova from the worse generation as well as calling him a vice-captain by a fellow one as well as a fanboy(so admiring the crew more than anyone else) to put it in our face that Zoro is the stronger one

Dooo you not know being a Supernova is determined by bounty? Any rookie with a bounty over 100,000,000. The World Government hasn't seen much of Sanji yet. While Zoro and Luffy has had their exploits notable, Sanji's were more in the dark because of his habit of splitting off from the group and going and doing other things, like tricking Crocodile, opening the Gates of Justice, etc. Sanji is def Supernova worthy, the WG just underrated him.

Like I said before, outside opinions on crew doesn't always reflect truth. Uruoge's guess that Zoro is first mate is just as good as someone else guessing Brook is the first mate. One guy saying "I think he's first mate" doesn't mean he's first mate, especially since he's not in a position to determine the first mate of the Strawhat crew.

Kaku was a bit weaker than Zoro, and they're fight was high diff.

An extreme diff fight comes when you and your opponent are neck and neck, aka, Luffy vs Lucci.

 

[Bogard]

Dooo you not know being a Supernova is determined by bounty? Any rookie with a bounty over 100,000,000. The World Government hasn't seen much of Sanji yet. While Zoro and Luffy has had their exploits notable, Sanji's were more in the dark because of his habit of splitting off from the group and going and doing other things, like tricking Crocodile, opening the Gates of Justice, etc. Sanji is def Supernova worthy, the WG just underrated him.

It's the bounty that gives the supernova status, but it's not the bounty that makes you more relevant to the story. Supernovas(especially from the worse generation) are made more and more relevant to the story especially since the timeskip. Once again, it's about portrayal here. The strawhats bounty rised after enies lobby(including Sanji's). There was more than 2 arcs after that including another fight against a Shichibukai, yet Oda never opted in increasing Sanji's bounty to make him a supernova.

The 100million thing to be considered a supernova is a rule Oda arbitrarily created. If he really wanted Sanji to be a supernova, he could have easily created another rule, yet he didn't, simply because it was better for the story(to his opinion) that only Luffy and Zoro possess that title most likely because they have greater ambitions

Like I said before, outside opinions on crew doesn't always reflect truth. Uruoge's guess that Zoro is first mate is just as good as someone else guessing Brook is the first mate. One guy saying "I think he's first mate" doesn't mean he's first mate, especially since he's not in a position to determine the first mate of the Strawhat crew.

I know that, but you ignore the importance of portrayal here once again. A fellow supernova calling Zoro a vice-captain was to emphasise Zoro's strength/place in the crew. Bartolomeo is a strawhat fanboy, so know them better than anyone, yet he called Zoro vice-captain again to emphasize his place in the crew

 

[Punk Hazard]

It's the bounty that gives the supernova status, but it's not the bounty that makes you more relevant to the story. Supernovas(especially from the worse generation) are made more and more relevant to the story especially since the timeskip. Once again, it's about portrayal here. The strawhats bounty rised after enies lobby(including Sanji's). There was more than 2 arcs after that including another fight against a Shichibukai, yet Oda never opted in increasing Sanji's bounty to make him a supernova.

The 100million thing to be considered a supernova is a rule Oda arbitrarily created. If he really wanted Sanji to be a supernova, he could have easily created another rule, yet he didn't, simply because it was better for the story(to his opinion) that only Luffy and Zoro possess that title most likely because they have greater ambitions

I know that, but you ignore the importance of portrayal here once again. A fellow supernova calling Zoro a vice-captain was to emphasise Zoro's strength/place in the crew. Bartolomeo is a strawhat fanboy, so know them better than anyone, yet he called Zoro vice-captain again to emphasize his place in the crew

Oda has always portrayed Sanji as more in the shadows than Zoro and Luffy. Sanji not being a Supernova isn't saying he's less relevant to the story than the Supernovas, unless you really think Apoo and Capone are more relevant in their two arc appearances than one the main characters :| Sanji not being a Supernova isn't Oda saying he's weak or not as relevant, but keeping up with Sanji's in the dark theme he's had for practically the entire story. Even when Sanji got a bounty, he didn't even have a proper picture, once again keeping up with his in-the-dark theme.
Luffy and Zoro got to Supernovas because Luffy directly took down both Shichibukai they fought, as well as being Dragon's son, while Zoro has been on the frontlines and stood out more to the WG than Sanji, once again, because Sanji has an undercover thing to him. I personally think Oda did this to have Sanji do something epic against Big Mom. It always stood out to me that it's kinda strange that Sanji, who can't attack women, is in charge of standing up to the only female Yonko, and the first Yonko to have a direct interaction with the crew, and not just Luffy. But that's slightly besides the point.

Just being a Supernova doesn't mean anything. The WG themselves think Chopper is a mere pet ,does that mean his role as a doctor is now non-existent? If the WG, which is superior to one mere Supernova btw, can be wrong, why does this Supernova get to be right? Just because it's convenient to what you're saying? You really think the circumstance that makes the former Fleet Admiral, the current Fleet Admiral, the WG Commander Kong, the Celestial Dragons, the Admirals, the Vice-Admirals, and all the thousands and thousands of marines wrong doesn't make Urouge wrong because he's a Supernova?

 

[Angelic.]

i see law as being rogers(luffy) whitebeard. shiki might be kidd. or law joining luffys army of allies for when they take on the world. jinbei might overshadow the m3 abit if he joins, especialy since sanjis dissapeared lol. hopefully he does something to stand out.

 

[Bogard]

Oda has always portrayed Sanji as more in the shadows than Zoro and Luffy. Sanji not being a Supernova isn't saying he's less relevant to the story than the Supernovas, unless you really think Apoo and Capone are more relevant in their two arc appearances than one the main characters :|

Well Sanji is in the shadow because Zoro and Luffy have strength-related dreams when Sanji doesn't. Relevant isn't the term i should have used though. I should have used "strength-wise relevant". I don't know about Capone, but yes i think Apoo is actually stronger than Sanji. Infact, i think he is stronger than Zoro as well. He is most like Luffy level because Kidd judge him strong enough to ally with him in a fight against a yonkou. But Brownbeard did say all the worse generation pirates occured in greatest events in the NW when they entered it, so they have a great influence in the manga. They are Luffy's rivals after all

Sanji not being a Supernova isn't Oda saying he's weak or not as relevant, but keeping up with Sanji's in the dark theme he's had for practically the entire story. Even when Sanji got a bounty, he didn't even have a proper picture, once again keeping up with his in-the-dark theme.

No one said he is weak. He is strong and would give Zoro a high diff fight like i've said, but i'm saying he isn't as strong as the 2 people above him in the crew

Luffy and Zoro got to Supernovas because Luffy directly took down both Shichibukai they fought, as well as being Dragon's son, while Zoro has been on the frontlines and stood out more to the WG than Sanji, once again, because Sanji has an undercover thing to him. I personally think Oda did this to have Sanji do something epic against Big Mom. It always stood out to me that it's kinda strange that Sanji, who can't attack women, is in charge of standing up to the only female Yonko, and the first Yonko to have a direct interaction with the crew, and not just Luffy. But that's slightly besides the point.

Their bounty got a rise only on one shichibukai. Against moria, no one in the crew received a bounty. And against Crocodile, the WG didn't even know Baroque works, let alone Crocodile's subordinates to accurately evaluate their danger/strength. Well like i've said Oda doesn't want Sanji to be known that much because his dream isn't strength related to begin with. As for the Big Mom thing, if she actually is in the ship, i think he will get captured as well as the rest of the crew. If not, he has his chance

 

[Punk Hazard]

Well Sanji is in the shadow because Zoro and Luffy have strength-related dreams when Sanji doesn't. Relevant isn't the term i should have used though. I should have used "strength-wise relevant". I don't know about Capone, but yes i think Apoo is actually stronger than Sanji. Infact, i think he is stronger than Zoro as well. He is most like Luffy level because Kidd judge him strong enough to ally with him in a fight against a yonkou. But Brownbeard did say all the worse generation pirates occured in greatest events in the NW when they entered it, so they have a great influence in the manga. They are Luffy's rivals after all

No one said he is weak. He is strong and would give Zoro a high diff fight like i've said, but i'm saying he isn't as strong as the 2 people above him in the crew

Their bounty got a rise only on one shichibukai. Against moria, no one in the crew received a bounty. And against Crocodile, the WG didn't even know Baroque works, let alone Crocodile's subordinates to accurately evaluate their danger/strength. Well like i've said Oda doesn't want Sanji to be known that much because his dream isn't strength related to begin with. As for the Big Mom thing, if she actually is in the ship, i think he will get captured as well as the rest of the crew. If not, he has his chance

1. No one said Sanji is as strong as them.

2. That makes sense with Appoo, plus he nailed an Admiral pre-timeskip xD

3. Oh yeah I forgot they covered up that shit with Moriah

 

[TheHokage]

If it was the case, Oda would not have created the supernova and worse generation system to seperate Luffy and Zoro from Sanji, as well as calling Zoro vice-captain by a fellow supernova(Urouge) and a strawhat fanboy(Bartolomeo), would not have given Luffy and Zoro better trainings and so on. When will people finally acknowledge Zoro is the stronger of the two? No one is saying Zoro will roflstomp him, but Sanji is clearly weaker. Zoro will win after a high diff fight

Did you not read my post? I said Zoro was stronger but there's not this massive gap in their power if they battled it would be an extreme difficult win for Zoro, not to mention the Supernova are ranked on bounties not strength or are you saying Bonney>Sanji? or that Law was weaker than Luffy pre-timeskip?

You have no evidence what so ever that Zoro could defeat Sanji as easy as you say, nothing but pure hype. Sanji and Zoro have always been portrayed as rivals in the crew and also as Luffy's left and right arms so them being relatively close in strength makes perfect sense.

I think Thriller Bark showed that the M3 Ranking is meaningless now, seeing as how Sanji and Zoro both remained after attacks that packed more damage than Luffy could deliver. I think that was Oda's way of saying "Stop worrying about their rank, they're all beasts."

The fact that they have followed the Luffy-1st strongest villain, Zoro-2nd, Sanji-3rd since Enies Lobby would support that.

Well there's no disputing their all beasts but I mean there's clearly a ranking order in regards to strength in the crew even if the gaps are small.

 

[Bogard]

Did you not read my post? I said Zoro was stronger but there's not this massive gap in their power if they battled it would be an extreme difficult win for Zoro, not to mention the Supernova are ranked on bounties not strength or are you saying Bonney>Sanji? or that Law was weaker than Luffy pre-timeskip?

Re-read the discussion with Riker concerning the portrayal around Supernovas. It's not bounty related

You have no evidence what so ever that Zoro could defeat Sanji as easy as you say, nothing but pure hype. Sanji and Zoro have always been portrayed as rivals in the crew and also as Luffy's left and right arms so them being relatively close in strength makes perfect sense.

High difficulty isn't easy. Rivals aren't always equals. Kiba isn't close to Naruto despite being a rival. Same goes for Konohamaru. Not saying it's the case with Sanji and Zoro though but Zoro and Sanji are like Kidd and Apoo, Marco and Jozu, Mr1 and Mr2, rivals but with the former being the superior one over the latter

 

[ToshiZO]

Why would Law join someone arguably weaker than him?

 

[Bogard]

Why would Law join someone arguably weaker than him?

Law is equal if not weaker than Luffy. Luffy has speed advantage, observation and armament haki advantage, DC advantage. Only advantage Law has is his hax, that i agree could trump an IC Luffy. Though you must also take into consideration the fact that Luffy lacks feats at the moment. I'm sure by the end of this arc, Luffy's superiority will be more visible

 

[Punk Hazard]

Law is equal if not weaker than Luffy. Luffy has speed advantage, observation and armament haki advantage, DC advantage. Only advantage Law has is his hax, that i agree could trump an IC Luffy. Though you must also take into consideration the fact that Luffy lacks feats at the moment. I'm sure by the end of this arc, Luffy's superiority will be more visible

Luffy hasn't shown any speed higher than Vergo's, so he has no speed advantage.
Vergo has shown higher Haki than Luffy, he has no Haki advantage. And we haven't seen Law's Haki yet. Let's not forget Law managed to nail a hit on Doffy, and Luffy couldn't.
We also haven't seen Law go all out either.

 

[Bogard]

Luffy hasn't shown any speed higher than Vergo's, so he has no speed advantage.
Vergo has shown higher Haki than Luffy, he has no Haki advantage. And we haven't seen Law's Haki yet. Let's not forget Law managed to nail a hit on Doffy, and Luffy couldn't.
We also haven't seen Law go all out either.

Vergo is at most equal to Sanji in speed who himself is slower than Luffy, yet Vergo could blitz Law. I'm not sure why you think Vergo's haki is stronger than Luffy's though. Because he can cover his entire body in haki doesn't make the strength of his haki stronger than someone who didn't displayed it yet for one or another reason. I'm pretty sure Sabo's haki is stronger than Vergo's despite himself having not imbued his haki on his entire body yet. Armament users do that only convenience-wise. Luffy was protecting someone else during his mini-clash with Doffy, yet he could dodge 2 color strings from Doflamingo and his clone and Doflamingo had to use his clone(that Viola said to have never seen before) to actually manage to land a hit. Law went all out against Doffy and got raped. Luffy is about to beat the one who raped Law

 

[Punk Hazard]

Vergo is at most equal to Sanji in speed who himself is slower than Luffy, yet Vergo could blitz Law. I'm not sure why you think Vergo's haki is stronger than Luffy's though. Because he can cover his entire body in haki doesn't make the strength of his haki stronger than someone who didn't displayed it yet for one or another reason. I'm pretty sure Sabo's haki is stronger than Vergo's despite himself having not imbued his haki on his entire body yet. Armament users do that only convenience-wise. Luffy was protecting someone else during his mini-clash with Doffy, yet he could dodge 2 color strings from Doflamingo and his clone and Doflamingo had to use his clone(that Viola said to have never seen before) to actually manage to land a hit. Law went all out against Doffy and got raped. Luffy is about to beat the one who raped Law

Sanji being slower than Luffy is speculation.
Luffy got raped against Doffy too. You're fanboying Luffy hard right now.
Vergo can't blitz Law, seeing as how in his strongest form, Law trumped his speed. Vergo hit law before not because of speed, but because Law was distracted. lol please get your facts straight.

 

[Bogard]

Sanji being slower than Luffy is speculation.
Luffy got raped against Doffy too. You're fanboying Luffy hard right now.
Vergo can't blitz Law, seeing as how in his strongest form, Law trumped his speed. Vergo hit law before not because of speed, but because Law was distracted. lol please get your facts straight.

Luffy is faster than Sanji because Sanji couldn't dodge color strings, yet base Luffy could. Not to mention Luffy learnt the speed of soru(that's CP9's fastest speed skillset) as well as gear second, when Sanji only learnt a form of gepou(that it's mobility skillset). Law didn't actually trumped Vergo there in speed. It's just that Vergo was fully confident Law's hax was still useless against him, so he went there carelessly. If he knew Law's hax was already strong enough to bypass his haki, he would have acted differently because like Doffy said, Vergo beats him physically(in strength and speed) just like we've seen at the beginning. How can you be distracted when someone is just infront of you? He got blitzed dude and Vergo was far away from him at the start, so he had more than enough time to see him coming

 

[sravan]

i dont mind others joining SH's now law,jimbei,bartholomeo are good editions to crew if they join that will make SH's atleast 10-15 times stronger.but M3 will always shine and is permanent.luffy>zorro>sanji.i dont care if sanji looses to zorro or not but yes he is doing everything he can dda will give him some major title or fights now

 

[Punk Hazard]

Luffy is faster than Sanji because Sanji couldn't dodge color strings, yet base Luffy could. Not to mention Luffy learnt the speed of soru(that's CP9's fastest speed skillset) as well as gear second, when Sanji only learnt a form of gepou(that it's mobility skillset). Law didn't actually trumped Vergo there in speed. It's just that Vergo was fully confident Law's hax was still useless against him, so he went there carelessly. If he knew Law's hax was already strong enough to bypass his haki, he would have acted differently because like Doffy said, Vergo beats him physically(in strength and speed) just like we've seen at the beginning. How can you be distracted when someone is just infront of you? He got blitzed dude and Vergo was far away from him at the start, so he had more than enough time to see him coming

Proof that Vergo went in carelessly? Once again, speculation.
Law was distracted because Vergo was crushing his heart and his focus wasn't on countering or attacking an attack from Vergo, but on his heart.

Luffy also got nailed by Five Color String, and he didn't dodge it, he pushed someone out of the way and barely avoided it. When he was in Sanji's position panels later, he got the same treatment as Sanji.