War arc Guy and kakashi vs Kisame and itachi

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Kakashi and Guy, with medium difficulty at maximum. As much as people want to cry about it, Kakashi and Itachi is a high difficulty fight either way, with either character full capable of winning. Guy and Kisame, not so much. Guy will wreck Kisame like he did in canon, and support Kakashi in defeating Itachi.

 

[LustyLover]

Holy eyes. When you say things like:



Despite:
A) guy was ordered to kill not capture
B)hirudora was shot from underwater
C)hirudora had to go through gsb before hitting kisame
D)kisame recovered completely

You're talking out your ass.

A) Gai was ordered to capture not kill, but that doesn't change the fact that his strongest attack from Gates 1-7 is Hirudora.
B) That didn't affect it in the slightest
C) Hirudora went through GSB with ease. It retained its full strength because Daikodan is a chakra absorbing technique, but Hirudora has no chakra; Hirudora was unaffected; Hirudora retained the same power as it would always possess when it hit Kisame. We have no reason to believe otherwise, no proof nor implications allow use to make that inference.

 

[Haizaki]

- Kisame didn't die. It was a clone.

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- Still doesn't change the fact that he tanked his strongest 7th Gated attack.

- No where does it say the unleashes Hirudora dehabilitates its power. It being fired underwater changes nothing. Hirudora didn't kill him, which is quite sad, seeing as how Kisame was already at the weakest point of his life prior to making impact with Hirudora. He'll suffer from no such restraints in this battle.

- His chakra is stated to be around three times the likes of Naruto.

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Absorbing a feeble amount of chakra from Bee (who has less chakra than Naruto) isn't going to replenish someone who has over triple the amount of chakra.

- He left the battle that occurred days before in a condition where he possessed low chakra reserves and remained that way. I addressed his chakra concerns above.

- Samehada can change alot in this battle. Kisame possessing thirty percent of his original chakra was stated to be equal to Naruto (who houses Kurama). Kisame can have Samehada take 1/3 of his chakra and convert it to stamina to consistently heal Kisame whenever the need arises. When he does this, not only will he be healed, but he'll still have Bijuu-level chakra reserves to fight with. Btw, just because Gai doesn't use Ninjutsu doesn't mean he doesn't possess chakra; Samehada can still steal Gai's chakra if need be.

- You just said Kisame won't be able to touch Gai with Samehada to steal chakra but show me a scan of Samehada hitting him in the same sentence. What?

- Hirudora would knock him down? Well, yes, obviously, lol. But seeing as how a weakened Kisame was able to talk and move after being hit by Hirudora, I'm sure a fully-healed, fully-Samehada-merged Kisame would be able to move away from him after he's hit. Besides, this is when Samehada's skill comes into play. When merged, he'll, like I said above, take Kisame's own chakra and heal him by converting it to stamina. Hirudora can't do shit at that point.

- I think it would be an interesting fight.

- You missed the point and jumped to something Irrelevant. You said the aim was to delay them but Kisame still got beat. Plain simple. Trying to make an excuse for Kisame is pointless. Having more Chakra does not improve your reflexes. Kisame could not react to 6TH gates Gai

-He tanked the attack but could have been easily killed after that. It knocked him down. Nothing more to it. Trying to bring up something about Kisame somehow winning because of Samehada is funny when it only absorbs an opponents chakra and convert it into stamina as said by Sabu.

- At the weakest point of his life? Lol no. The impact underwater would obviously be reduced. Hirudora would put him down and if he's still alive, Gai would kill him like he could have done afterwards. You're trying to look for an excuse for Kisame. He absorbed Bee's chakra and the other guy. Trying bring up something about chakra somehow giving him enough durability to survive that attack is funny.

-Doesn't matter how many times. Kisame has more chakra than Pain and the others

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. Let me guess, he beats them as well? That would make him stronger than them? Neji even managed to take down Naruto with his chakra even if he deactivated his byakugan which led to his loss.

-Do you know about B's chakra? A jinchuriki as well? This chakra talk won't change.

- LOOOOL. He left the battle days after, during that battle he absorbed B's chakra and had enough stamina. How he ended up in that state isn't too known. You're coming with an assumption that doesn't even make sense. He never left the battle with low chakra reserves. Never. You made that up without proving it with scans.

If Samehada converts his own chakra, it still won't help. Gai can just cover the distance and use asakujaku again from close range. He can decide to finish him off easily with a kunai because he can easily blitz. Not to mention there's no proof of Kisame having enough chakra to fully heal himself when it was said he steals from the opponents and converts it to stamina. He kept stealing from a tank who had more chakra than him.
Samehada steals when it comes in contact as shown with how it stole B's cloak. It doesn't steal when you're not surrounded with a chakra cloak.

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B noticed his chakra was drained when Kisame hit him and as seen with the blade in that scan I posted. B was in contact with samehada before that

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. Gai doesn't have chakra surrounding him so samehada can't absorb his chakra without touching him. Samehada isn't stealing chakra from Gai who specializes in strictly Taijutsu and hardly even uses chakra

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Obito pretty much confirms physical techniques are used when conserving chakra. Samehada encountered 6 gates Gai but got smacked

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. Gai held samehada here

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but was his chakra absorbed?

- I showed you a scan of samehada hitting B. Kisame can't hit or touch Gai in the 6th gates as shown in the manga.

What? Move away? Did you forget how fast Gai is? Even if he merges, he'll be blitzed.

Did you see how 7G Gai was striking and moving soo fast against Madara despite him being heavily weakened before the fight? Gai uses hirudora and covers the distance soo fast to kill Kisame.

 

[KidGamer65]

Instantaneously? Very. Minato even managed to question it and instruct Kakashi on the matter, while there was nothing to compare to when Kakashi was warping it... heightening speed? Can you show scans of Kakashi being able to do so, because firstly, I don't see why the plan would be screwed, and secondly, I can hardly imagine Kakashi being able to manipulate the execution speed of the Kamui. But if you can prove that with scans, I might shut up​

Yeah, Minato questioned him AFTER it had been warped away. Minato also asked him if he can do it, BEFORE Kakashi used Kamui. And yes, Instantaneously. Summoning Jutsu brings the target to the summoner, instantaneously.

1. Kakashi uses Kamui, and the barrier forms on the Mazo.

2. Mazo is warped away with Summoning Jutsu.

3. It loses its arm in the process.

Despite it being warped away instantaneously, Kakashi still managed to rip off its arm. If the barrier is successfully formed on Itachi's body, there isn't anything he can do about it. Its GG no re.

Already have proved it with scans. If you want to deny the obvious based on your invalid argument, I'll either have to crush your invalid argument, or wait for you to realize how invalid it is.

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More proof.

VS BM Naruto

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VS Obito

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The speeds in these scans are different. If you can't see it, then there is clearly something wrong. Hardcore proof that he can manipulate its warping speed.

Surprisingly, Shunshin is an extremely well method to end the fight before it even starts... people still doubt it, for what reason? I wonder.

You don't know what you are talking about, that's why. Shunshin is only going to end the battle before it starts unless Itachi can hit Kakashi and Gai before they can react. When you can get the scans that imply Itachi's fast enough to blitz kill Kakashi or Gai, then we can talk.

Not only Kakashi has been trapped in Genjutsu before, he also has no counter to Finger Genjutsu.

​

In Tsukuyomi. No other Sharingan Genjutsu is going to work due his own Sharingan, nor did Itachi catch him in any Sharingan Genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi, that wasn't immediately broken. Scans?

@bold: Manga already showed that Sharingan is a counter to Ocular Genjutsu. Unless its Tsukuyomi, Itachi's Genjutsu aren't doing anything. At all.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Instantaneously? Very. Minato even managed to question it and instruct Kakashi on the matter, while there was nothing to compare to when Kakashi was warping it... heightening speed? Can you show scans of Kakashi being able to do so, because firstly, I don't see why the plan would be screwed, and secondly, I can hardly imagine Kakashi being able to manipulate the execution speed of the Kamui. But if you can prove that with scans, I might shut up.

Surprisingly, Shunshin is an extremely well method to end the fight before it even starts... people still doubt it, for what reason? I wonder.

Not only Kakashi has been trapped in Genjutsu before, he also has no counter to Finger Genjutsu.​

I'm not gonna get into you when it comes to the speed of kamui/ama but itachi isn't shunshin blitzing anyone. Kakashi already proved he has the reaction feats necessary to combat itachi.

The only genjutsu kakashi on screen has been trapped in was tsukuyomi. Standard genjutsu(finger gen included) isn't doing anything here.

 

[Rιver]

Yeah, Minato questioned him AFTER it had been warped away. Minato also asked him if he can do it, BEFORE Kakashi used Kamui. And yes, Instantaneously. Summoning Jutsu brings the target to the summoner, instantaneously.

1. Kakashi uses Kamui, and the barrier forms on the Mazo.

2. Mazo is warped away with Summoning Jutsu.

3. It loses its arm in the process.

Despite it being warped away instantaneously, Kakashi still managed to rip off its arm. If the barrier is successfully formed on Itachi's body, there isn't anything he can do about it. Its GG no re.

Already have proved it with scans. If you want to deny the obvious based on your invalid argument, I'll either have to crush your invalid argument, or wait for you to realize how invalid it is.

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More proof.

VS BM Naruto

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VS Obito

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The speeds in these scans are different. If you can't see it, then there is clearly something wrong. Hardcore proof that he can manipulate its warping speed.

You don't know what you are talking about, that's why. Shunshin is only going to end the battle before it starts unless Itachi can hit Kakashi and Gai before they can react. When you can get the scans that imply Itachi's fast enough to blitz kill Kakashi or Gai, then we can talk.

In Tsukuyomi. No other Sharingan Genjutsu is going to work due his own Sharingan, nor did Itachi catch him in any Sharingan Genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi, that wasn't immediately broken. Scans?

@bold: Manga already showed that Sharingan is a counter to Ocular Genjutsu. Unless its Tsukuyomi, Itachi's Genjutsu aren't doing anything. At all.

Haha... funny how you're trying to prove without any waterproof evidence at all that Kamui is faster than an instant?

So if the Kuchiyose moves at instant speed, I wonder how Kakashi and Minato can discuss about the Mazō in questionable matter and then execute the technique, and even partly succeed? Kamui is much faster than anyone in the verse than, and logically faster than Hiraishin. If you want to believe Kamui > instant that is.

There's nothing fishy - in fact, it's nearly the same. You can firstly see Obito doubting the Rasengan and even realizing it's being warped. In the second scan, since he thought the stake 'hit' him and labeling it as a clone, Obito moved on, but later realized he warped the entire body. What you proved is that people can talk and do action to certain degree before being warped. That's most certainly enough time for a Finger Genjutsu, which Kakashi won't see coming and won't possibly even know being possible.

What's only possible is that he can break it after a few seconds. And that's all the time Itachi's Shunshin or Amaterasu needs. Sharingan can also only break them, they're not immune..
​

 

[KidGamer65]

Haha... funny how you're trying to prove without any waterproof evidence at all that Kamui is faster than an instant?​

What in the world are you talking about? I said Kamui was fast enough to take off the Mazo's arm before it was warped away instantaneously, not that Kamui is faster than instant, which isn't even possible to begin with. All which is in the manga.

So if the Kuchiyose moves at instant speed, I wonder if Kakashi and Minato can discuss about the Mazō in questionable matter and then execute the technique, and even partly succeed? Kamui is much faster than anyone in the verse than, and logically faster than Hiraishin. If you want to believe Kamui > instant that is.

Again, what are you talking about? Gedo Mazo was idle, that is when they were talking. They weren't talking while it was being teleported to Madara. Its going to be hard to debate this if you can't understand the words in my post.

And again, if you read properly before replying. You would know that I never said Kamui is faster than instant, which is impossible.

Like I said, it moved faster here than it did against Obito. Not debatable.

There's nothing fishy - in fact, it's nearly the same. You can firstly see Obito doubting the Rasengan and even realizing it's being warped. In the second scan, since he thought the stake 'hit' him and labeling it as a clone, Obito moved on, but later realized he warped the entire body. What you proved is that people can talk and do action to certain degree before being warped. That's most certainly enough time for a Finger Genjutsu, which Kakashi won't see coming and won't possibly even know being possible.

Lol are you serious with this? He started Kamui on Naruto, and then a second later (Probably even less considering the speed Obito can shoot things out at) the clone was gone. Obito even stated faster than

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, the same stake that was shot out via Kamui.

Obito started to get warped

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. Even after Minato got his arm chopped off, and kicked backwards. Obito still wasn't warped. Yet you are telling me that they were the same?

What's only possible is that he can break it after a few seconds. And that's all the time Itachi's Shunshin or Amaterasu needs. Sharingan can also only break them, they're not immune..

​

Sharingan sees through Genjutsu. He'll know its a Genjutsu from the start, allowing to break it right then and there. B needs to rely on his Bijuu to break Genjutsu,

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from Itachi's Genjutsu. Kakashi can see that its a Genjutsu from the start. He'll easily break it, no reason to even bother.

Or he can use his own Genjutsu to counter. [

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] Leaving them both at a standstill.

Due to Kakashi's Sharingan, Itachi

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didn't

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to use any Genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi on him because there would be no merit. Why would there be merit here when there was nothing of the sort, in the manga? Kakashi got farther than a "Genjutsu+Shunshin" combo, in the manga. Why would it happen here?

Your little Genjutsu+Finisher combo isn't going to happen here. So I suggest you drop it.

 

[Rιver]

What in the world are you talking about? I said Kamui was fast enough to take off the Mazo's arm before it was warped away instantaneously, not that Kamui is faster than instant, which isn't even possible to begin with. All which is in the manga.


Again, what are you talking about? Gedo Mazo was idle, that is when they were talking. They weren't talking while it was being teleported to Madara. Its going to be hard to debate this if you can't understand the words in my post.

And again, if you read properly before replying. You would know that I never said Kamui is faster than instant, which is impossible.

Like I said, it moved faster here than it did against Obito. Not debatable.



Lol are you serious with this? He started Kamui on Naruto, and then a second later (Probably even less considering the speed Obito can shoot things out at) the clone was gone. Obito even stated faster than

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, the same stake that was shot out via Kamui.

Obito started to get warped

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. Even after Minato got his arm chopped off, and kicked backwards. Obito still wasn't warped. Yet you are telling me that they were the same?




Sharingan sees through Genjutsu. He'll know its a Genjutsu from the start, allowing to break it right then and there. B needs to rely on his Bijuu to break Genjutsu,

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from Itachi's Genjutsu. Kakashi can see that its a Genjutsu from the start. He'll easily break it, no reason to even bother.

Or he can use his own Genjutsu to counter. [

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] Leaving them both at a standstill.

Due to Kakashi's Sharingan, Itachi

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didn't

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to use any Genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi on him because there would be no merit. Why would there be merit here when there was nothing of the sort, in the manga? Kakashi got farther than a "Genjutsu+Shunshin" combo, in the manga. Why would it happen here?

Your little Genjutsu+Finisher combo isn't going to happen here. So I suggest you drop it.

I'm pretty certain you said Kuchiyose moves instantaneously. Or at least - brings the summon to the user in an instant?

And yes, Instantaneously. Summoning Jutsu brings the target to the summoner, instantaneously.

So, unless I am hallucinating, I believe these are your words? While instantaneous is an 'adjective' of the word instant, which means - occurring with no delay; immediate? Glad you bolded that for me saved me time.

While in this scan, he does the Kuchiyose, which means by your words, the events occurring between the transport are faster than immediate (...?), while in that scan Kakashi used Kamui as well as had a little chat with his sensei... I suppose Kamui is therefore faster than instant.

Obito clearly tracked down the Kamui, realized the jutsu and also executed his own Kamui nearly in time. That's not less than a second, not even less than 5.

While I won't deny at all that Kakashi can break through it (though it takes quite some time, probably few seconds until he even realizes it's a Genjutsu), nothing suggests that Kakashi can notice if he is in a Genjutsu or not immediately and then break off before Itachi can even move few feets... but I don't even see how Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, so Genjutsu wouldn't be needed.
​

 

[Braiyan]

- Still doesn't change the fact that he tanked his strongest 7th Gated attack.

Kisame was rendered helpless and barely able to move. How in the world does that equate to "tanking"?

- No where does it say the unleashes Hirudora dehabilitates its power. It being fired underwater changes nothing.

It went through a

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. It was barely around Kisame's size by the time it got to him. Compare that to the

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two

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it was used, where no shrinking occurred. And then there's also the fact that Guy was ordered to capture Kisame, not kill him. It's as clear as day that the Hirudora shot at Kisame was significantly weakened.

- Hirudora didn't kill him,

It wasn't supposed to. Guy's orders were to capture Kisame and retrieve the scroll. Therefore he used enough force to accomplish that.

- which is quite sad, seeing as how Kisame was already at the weakest point of his life prior to making impact with Hirudora. He'll suffer from no such restraints in this battle.

He just came from absorbing Bee's chakras and was using far larger scale Suitons than what his 30% chakra clone is capable of. If Kisame can vastly outperform a clone with a third of his chakra, then he was not at the weakest point of his life.

- His chakra is stated to be around three times the likes of Naruto.

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This observation was made by Neji, who could only be using Part 1 Naruto's chakra as a comparison, seeing that up to that point, he has not yet seen Naruto use Kyuubi chakra again since the Chunin Exams. So basically, Neji's saying that Kisame had the same amount of chakra Part 1 Naruto had during the Chunin Exam Finals where

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. Now unless you're trying to argue that Part 1 Naruto, who couldn't even form a full fledged chakra cloak, was outputting more chakra than Bee, who pulls out

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, I don't see what is the point of using Neji's observation.

- Absorbing a feeble amount of chakra from Bee (who has less chakra than Naruto) isn't going to replenish someone who has over triple the amount of chakra.

He absorbed so much chakra from Bee that

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, and then

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after launching Guy to the sky. It's even stated that Bee lost a ton of chakra in that last scan. That's a heck of a lot more than a "feeble amount of chakra".

- Samehada can change alot in this battle. Kisame possessing thirty percent of his original chakra was stated to be equal to Naruto (who houses Kurama). Kisame can have Samehada take 1/3 of his chakra and convert it to stamina to consistently heal Kisame whenever the need arises.

And then Guy knocks

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and torches him with Asa Kujaku.

- Hirudora would knock him down? Well, yes, obviously, lol. But seeing as how a weakened Kisame was able to talk and move after being hit by Hirudora,

*a significantly rejuvenated Kisame was able to talk and twitch a finger after being hit by a shrunken Hirudora from a Guy trying to capture but not kill him.

- I'm sure a fully-healed, fully-Samehada-merged Kisame would be able to move away from him after he's hit.

Having all of his chakra does nothing for Kisame's durability to attacks. Neither has Samehada fusion been implied to greatly increase his durability. Not to the point that he will be able to casually move away after being hit by a stronger version of the attack that left him barely able to twitch a finger.

Even if Hirudora fails to kill him, Guy could just throw another one. He has the stamina for it seeing that he used it twice in the war and then went on to use the 8th Gate, all whilst in an exhausted state. Or he can use the more appropriate Asa Kujaku.

The mere fact that Samehada

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when it was used to absorb a fire attack (to the point that Bee didn't use it again when

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), heavily implies that it will not only fail to protect Kisame against the much stronger (and un-absorbable) Asa Kujaku, but it would be rendered unusable, whether via being burnt to a crisp, or separating from Kisame to get away from the heat. And then Kisame gets finished off by Guy's next attack, assuming he's not simply torched by Asa Kujaku, much like his 30% chakra clone did.

 

[Kamui Sama]

While I won't deny at all that Kakashi can break through it (though it takes quite some time, probably few seconds until he even realizes it's a Genjutsu), nothing suggests that Kakashi can notice if he is in a Genjutsu or not immediately and then break off before Itachi can even move few feets...
​

In the Kamui dimension fight vs. Obito, Kakashi fought against Obito's 3t genjutsu. There was no indication to the readers that it was even a genjutsu until they decided to mutually break it. That genjutsu fight doesn't seem much different at all to the passive genjutsu that Itachi uses.

 

[KidGamer65]

I'm pretty certain you said Kuchiyose moves instantaneously. Or at least - brings the summon to the user in an instant?



So, unless I am hallucinating, I believe these are your words? While instantaneous is an 'adjective' of the word instant, which means - occurring with no delay; immediate? Glad you bolded that for me saved me time​

Actually you are wasting it, and my time with your inability to comprehend my post. Kamui isn't instant. Summoning is. That is what I said. Kamui was simply fast enough to tear off its arm before it could completely warp. If Kamui was as fast as instant then it would have warped off the head completely, as that is where Kakashi was aiming for. The teleportation screwed up his warp, but it doesn't change the fact that after the warp barrier was placed on the Mazo, not even instantaneously teleporting away was enough to stop it from getting a limb ripped off.

How hard is this for you to understand? Summoning being instant doesn't mean Kamui is. Not that hard to comprehend.

While in this scan, he does the Kuchiyose, which means by your words, the events occurring between the transport are faster than immediate (...?), while in that scan Kakashi used Kamui as well as had a little chat with his sensei... I suppose Kamui is therefore faster than instant.

Read above. This is getting annoying now. I've explained what happened now twice. If you can't comprehend it, then there's nothing I can do to help you at this point. If Kamui was faster than instant, then it would have taken off its head, not its arm. Gedo Mazo was idle before it was teleported to Madara, giving him the window to use Kamui.

Obito clearly tracked down the Kamui, realized the jutsu and also executed his own Kamui nearly in time. That's not less than a second, not even less than 5.

Lol, So it takes Obito 5 seconds to fire his stake with his Kamui? He already stated "FASTER THAN THE STAKE" Meaning Kakashi warped Naruto faster than the stake could hit him. That isn't 5 seconds. I'm not going to bother trying to count time here, I'll just go with Obito's clear cut statement.

While I won't deny at all that Kakashi can break through it (though it takes quite some time, probably few seconds until he even realizes it's a Genjutsu), nothing suggests that Kakashi can notice if he is in a Genjutsu or not immediately and then break off before Itachi can even move few feets... but I don't even see how Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, so Genjutsu wouldn't be needed.

​

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Sharingan recognizes Genjutsu. From the get go he'll know its Genjutsu, because that is how Sharingan works. There are no few seconds of delay. He knows its a Genjutsu due to Sharingan and he breaks free immediately.

Genjutsu was useless in canon. Itachi didn't attempt it (bar Tsukuyomi) in canon. You saying he'll blitz kill Kakashi with GENJUTSU goes against CANON. An argument that goes against canon shouldn't be entertained at all.


@underlined: Kamui warped the Mazo's arm off before it could be summoned to Madara. Ay avoided Amaterasu. I wonder which is faster? Lets be serious here.

 

[Rιver]

Actually you are wasting it, and my time with your inability to comprehend my post. Kamui isn't instant. Summoning is. That is what I said. Kamui was simply fast enough to tear off its arm before it could completely warp. If Kamui was as fast as instant then it would have warped off the head completely, as that is where Kakashi was aiming for. The teleportation screwed up his warp, but it doesn't change the fact that after the warp barrier was placed on the Mazo, not even instantaneously teleporting away was enough to stop it from getting a limb ripped off.

How hard is this for you to understand? Summoning being instant doesn't mean Kamui is. Not that hard to comprehend.


Read above. This is getting annoying now. I've explained what happened now twice. If you can't comprehend it, then there's nothing I can do to help yiou at this point. If Kamui was faster than instant, then it would have taken off its head, not its arm.


Lol, So it takes Obito 5 seconds to fire his stake with his Kamui? He already stated "FASTER THAN THE STAKE" Meaning Kakashi warped Naruto faster than the stake could hit him. That isn't 5 seconds. I'm not going to bother trying to count time here, I'll just go with Obito's clear cut statement.

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Sharingan recognizes Genjutsu. From the get go he'll know its Genjutsu, because that is how Sharingan works. There are no few seconds of delay. He knows its a Genjutsu due to Sharingan and he breaks free immediately.

Genjutsu was useless in canon. Itachi didn't attempt it (bar Tsukuyomi) in canon. You saying he'll blitz kill Kakashi with GENJUTSU goes against CANON. An argument that goes against canon shouldn't be entertained at all.


@underlined: Kamui warped the Mazo's arm off before it could be summoned to Madara. Ay avoided Amaterasu. I wonder which is faster? Lets be serious here.

Indeed, it is very hard for me to comprehend. You say that a transportation technique, is instant (which has no proof). After this, you claim a technique, executed mid-way the transportation, is not as fast (which is not only a contradiction, but also has no proof). What you're asking me is to refuse to believe a chair exists, while it is in front of me. Can you do that? I wonder.

I don't believe there is anything faster than instant - while also, if the Kakashi started using the Kamui before Obito could even activate his Kamui, that statement of yours you borrowed... it's quite a contradiction?

The only reason it didn't work on Kakashi... was because he used a Kage Bunshin as a substitute.​

 

[KidGamer65]

Indeed, it is very hard for me to comprehend. You say that a transportation technique, is instant (which has no proof).

After this, you claim a technique, executed mid-way the transportation, is not as fast (which is not only a contradiction, but also has no proof). What you're asking me is to refuse to believe a chair exists, while it is in front of me. Can you do that? I wonder.​

Hiraishin no Jutsu

User(s): Yondaime Hokage
Rank: S
TNG: Ninjutsu
Range: Close, Mid, Far
Type: Supplementary

Description:
"Flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant!!"
"Swiftness that surpasses Shunshin!"
Yondaime Hokage's jutsu, the reason for his alias "Yellow Flash"! His high-speed
movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement".
To activate the jutsu, he needs a "jutsu-shiki" to mark the destination.
Yondaime applies a "jutsu-shiki" to weapons such as kunai in advance. It is also
possible to leave it in a touched area, and when it is engraved on an enemy's
body, it becomes a curse seal with a sentence of death!

Picture text:
Top: He saves Kakashi and at the same time leaves a "jutsu-shiki" on the enemy's
leg.
Bottom: It is not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin. The principle is
similar to that of Kuchiyose.

Hiraishin is instant. Databook states that instead of being comparable to the speed of Shunshin, its more comparable to Summoning. Meaning Summonings are instant.

Kamui doesn't need to be faster than instant to hit the Mazo before it can teleport, don't know where you are getting this from. It only needs to be close to instantaneous speeds, as the manga itself CLEARLY SHOWS.

1. Mazo is standing still.

2. Kakashi uses Kamui on its head.

3. Mazo teleports away, but it has no arm.

These 3 steps aren't debatable, Pure manga fact no matter how much you try and argue against it. If Kamui successfully landed before the warp, then the Mazo's head would be gone. So that is out. After is obviously out of the question. So the split second before it was teleported to Madara, Kamui's barrier manifested on its head, but the teleportation caused Kakashi to rip off its arm.

What you are doing is denying manga fact, and its getting pretty sad.

I don't believe there is anything faster than instant - while also, if the Kakashi started using the Kamui before Obito could even activate his Kamui, that statement of yours you borrowed... it's quite a contradiction?

No, its not. Cause I never said Obito used Kamui before Kakashi, nor did the manga show that.

The only reason it didn't work on Kakashi... was because he used a Kage Bunshin as a substitute.

​

How is that relevant? I'm not even talking about that encounter. I'm talking about their first encounter. No Genjutsu was attempted bar Tsukuyomi, because as Itachi stated himself. You can't fool the same eye with Genjutsu.

 

[Lana Del Taka]

Itachi and Kisame stomp.

 

[Rιver]

Hiraishin is instant. Databook states that instead of being comparable to the speed of Shunshin, its more comparable to Summoning. Meaning Summonings are instant.

Kamui doesn't need to be faster than instant to hit the Mazo before it can teleport, don't know where you are getting this from. It only needs to be close to instantaneous speeds, as the manga itself CLEARLY SHOWS.

1. Mazo is standing still.

2. Kakashi uses Kamui on its head.

3. Mazo teleports away, but it has no arm.

These 3 steps aren't debatable, Pure manga fact no matter how much you try and argue against it. If Kamui successfully landed before the warp, then the Mazo's head would be gone. So that is out. After is obviously out of the question. So the split second before it was teleported to Madara, Kamui's barrier manifested on its head, but the teleportation caused Kakashi to rip off its arm.

What you are doing is denying manga fact, and its getting pretty sad.



No, its not. Cause I never said Obito used Kamui before Kakashi, nor did the manga show that.




How is that relevant? I'm not even talking about that encounter. I'm talking about their first encounter. No Genjutsu was attempted bar Tsukuyomi, because as Itachi stated himself. You can't fool the same eye with Genjutsu.

... Jesus Christ.

Spoiler

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''Same principle as Kuchiyose''. Not even the same... not that it matters. I'm done.​

 

[KidGamer65]

... Jesus Christ.

Spoiler

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''Same principle as Kuchiyose''. Not even the same... not that it matters. I'm done.​

Those sentences talk about the SPEED of the jutsu. As they are both for the same section on the actual page itself. (Bottom)

It is not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin.

As you can clearly see. Its not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin.

The principle is
similar to that of Kuchiyose.

Its similar to that of the Summoning Jutsu, meaning that its speed is similar. Again, how hard is it for you to comprehend this? Two simple sentences.

@bold: Thank God. This lack of ability to properly comprehend information was getting on my nerves.

 

[Braiyan]

Pretty sure that Itachi's Amaterasu is faster than

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, that was slower than a Kunai throw, Gaara's Sabaku Taisō (started forming it mid-way and worked) and Madara's Taijutsu that not did only beat Minato, but also cost his arm.​

The implication there is that Kakashi used Kamui after Gaara and Minato made their moves, as the whole point of that scene was an attempt to distract Madara so Kakashi could

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. There's no point in advocating that as Kamui's slowness when Kakashi wanted the sand wall up and Minato keeping Madara distracted before attempting to warp Obito. Not to mention the fact that we also have Kakashi

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from him

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right afterwards, a feat which contradicts any claims of Kamui being as slow as you imply it is.

So unless you believe that while Itachi shoots his Amaterasu, this all can happen before it even lands, I won't bother further.

If we are going to argue about all the things that can happen between Amaterasu/Kamui being cast, and making contact with the opponent, then Ama's track record is worse.

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just before Amaterasu is cast.

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. Sasuke was able to

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Not to mention...

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, lml.

Because Obito nullified it with Kamui seeing that

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the next time we see him.

Kakashi can't also use it from short-range, so it only may work if he's at short,

Since when did war arc Kakashi = an exhausted Kakashi near blind from spamming Kamui for the duration of the war? Should I also assume that we are using the near-blind and sick Itachi at the end of his fight with Sasuke who couldn't maintain Susano'o for more than a couple minutes? Or the emaciated Kisame who was cooped up in a sword for weeks? Let's be serious here.

but Itachi can always kill him with a simple Shunshin or place them both in Genjutsu...

​

Itachi has never blitzed Kakashi in the past and he's not about to do so now against a significantly stronger Kakashi. Nor is he putting a man who stalemated with Obito (who is able to put a perfect jinchuriki under a Genjutsu so powerful it makes

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) in a Genjutsu battle, under any Genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi. Guy is not falling for Genjutsu either, seeing that he developed an entire fighting style around avoiding Sharingan Genjutsu.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

A) Gai was ordered to capture not kill, but that doesn't change the fact that his strongest attack from Gates 1-7 is Hirudora.
B) That didn't affect it in the slightest
C) Hirudora went through GSB with ease. It retained its full strength because Daikodan is a chakra absorbing technique, but Hirudora has no chakra; Hirudora was unaffected; Hirudora retained the same power as it would always possess when it hit Kisame. We have no reason to believe otherwise, no proof nor implications allow use to make that inference.

A) since he was ordered to capture he weakened it so it wouldn't kill him
B)a air canon being shot through a medium heavier than air isn't going to be effected said medium? Dafuq?
C) it got smaller as it went through gsb.