Tobirama vs Edo Hokages

Brother Numpsay

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-Lets say Tobirama did Edo Tensei Rikudou Madara. Tobirama has full control, and Madara cannot resist his bind.

-Tobirama has his anime feats. He has a prep FTG seal in the middle of the ocean.Alive Tobirama has his sword, and a prep ninja pouch that carries basic ninja tools, via Kunai, Shirukens, etc. Tobirama can summon 1 fodder edo, which carries ninja pouch and same equipment, which are prepped tagged.

-Each Kage has a sealing tag, to seal Edo's at a vulnerable state.

Location: SA vs Juubito

Intel: Manga
 

Touken

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It wouldn't be Rikudou Madara. Once a host dies, the Bijuu (or Juubi in this case) is set free, but in the manga it was absorbed by Kaguya, who actually is the Juubi itself (I think). It'd be double Rinnegan SM Madara but he'd still be fodder level considering Tobirama's ET is weak.
 

KidGamer65

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If Tobirama revives him, then he won't have the Juubi, he'll just have Rinnegan, Mokuton, and EMS....so the Edo Hokage would god stomp these two.

-As described above, if Madara was revived, he'd pretty much be the exact same as he was when revived by Kabuto. Rinnegan, EMS, Mokuton and the inability to use the full power of his Rinnegan. He'd also lack Hashirama's Sage Mode.

-Hashirama solos Edo Madara and clones from Minato seal him away.

-BM Minato fodderizes Tobirama. Base Minato is already faster than Tobirama, BM Minato is much faster than he is, so in any battle of speed, Tobirama would get wrecked. Tobirama's strongest move is Gojo Kibakufuda, but Minato can easily tank that as the Kurama Avatar took the Juubi's Laser, and lost 6 tails, still functional and Minato himself was unharmed. A Bijuu Dama would atomize Tobirama, or he could just use the speed boost from BM to slap him around in CQC.

Not to mention I completely ignored the fact that Tobirama's Edo Tensei was terrible when it came to power.
 

ARGUS

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Hokages win rather easily

--Madara is defeated by hashirama, not to mention that hashirama would be boosted by minato,, therefore he can use his technqiues such as SS to a much higher extent and proceeds to overwhelm madaras PS rather easily which is still his fulll power in his edo form

--BM Minato alongside hiruzen would beat Tobirama rather easily,, he is faster than Tobirama and has the durability to tank all of tobiramas attacks on top of that minato can mark tobirama and procced to land all of his TBBs right at tobirama,, as his use of FTG is more adept and with him having full BM means that tobirama doesnt stand a chance

--and as KG said, Tobiramas Edo tensei is likely to be worse than orochimarus, meaning that madara when revived wont even be close to his full power, let alone his enhanced edo form which was modified by kabuto
 

Brother Numpsay

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If Tobirama revives him, then he won't have the Juubi, he'll just have Rinnegan, Mokuton, and EMS....so the Edo Hokage would god stomp these two.

-As described above, if Madara was revived, he'd pretty much be the exact same as he was when revived by Kabuto. Rinnegan, EMS, Mokuton and the inability to use the full power of his Rinnegan. He'd also lack Hashirama's Sage Mode.

-Hashirama solos Edo Madara and clones from Minato seal him away.

-BM Minato fodderizes Tobirama. Base Minato is already faster than Tobirama, BM Minato is much faster than he is, so in any battle of speed, Tobirama would get wrecked. Tobirama's strongest move is Gojo Kibakufuda, but Minato can easily tank that as the Kurama Avatar took the Juubi's Laser, and lost 6 tails, still functional and Minato himself was unharmed. A Bijuu Dama would atomize Tobirama, or he could just use the speed boost from BM to slap him around in CQC.

Not to mention I completely ignored the fact that Tobirama's Edo Tensei was terrible when it came to power.

This thread obviously backfired lel. But i got a bone to pick stating

=Minato speed boost by Kurama, when manga didnt show a significant boost differance.

=Using bad ABC logic to determine Minato tanking Goto, when , canonicaly was told to avoid twice on top of that.
 

KidGamer65

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This thread obviously backfired lel. But i got a bone to pick stating

=Minato speed boost by Kurama, when manga didnt show a significant boost differance.

He was either in CQC or using Hiraishin. He never used Shunshin so of course you wouldn't see a speed boost. Doesn't mean that Kurama's Chakra doesn't boost speed

=Using bad ABC logic to determine Minato tanking Goto, when , canonicaly was told to avoid twice on top of that.

He was told to avoid by Tobirama, who knows nothing about the Kurama Avatar considering he hadn't seen it until Chapter 645 where Minato and Naruto used it to fight against Obito. So that isn't an argument. And Juubilaser outputs more energy, thus deals more damage than Gojo, so Naruto tanks it. That simple.
 

Bogard

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Tobirama's ET is weaker than part1 Orochimaru's that brought up fodder versions of Hashirama and Madara. It's not for nothing he created the jutsu only for the edos to explode, so i don't think the edo's strength itself would make a difference regardless who he summons
He was either in CQC or using Hiraishin. He never used Shunshin so of course you wouldn't see a speed boost. Doesn't mean that Kurama's Chakra doesn't boost speed
Actually he did used shunshin [ ]
 

KidGamer65

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Tobirama's ET is weaker than part1 Orochimaru's that brought up fodder versions of Hashirama and Madara. It's not for nothing he created the jutsu only for the edos to explode, so i don't think the edo's strength itself would make a difference regardless who he summons

Actually he did used shunshin [ ]

I always thought that it was Hiraishin.
 

WolfHaley

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You all have zero idea on Tobirama's ET capability, and basing it on part one feats is foolish for obvious reasons. This is part two naruto people, the shit naruto, it's clearly not going to be inferior to fodder part one orochimaru.

That being said, of it was double Rinnegan Madara revived as of now, he would be able to use Sage Mode, and considering this would give Madara access to Shimsusenju in all it's glory, as well as PS, Madara probably soloes. Tobirama gets made redundant pretty easily.
 

KidGamer65

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You all have zero idea on Tobirama's ET capability, and basing it on part one feats is foolish for obvious reasons. This is part two naruto people, the shit naruto, it's clearly not going to be inferior to fodder part one orochimaru.

That being said, of it was double Rinnegan Madara revived as of now, he would be able to use Sage Mode, and considering this would give Madara access to Shimsusenju in all it's glory, as well as PS, Madara probably soloes. Tobirama gets made redundant pretty easily.

Its worse or equal to Orochimaru's at the best. Looking at part 1 feats themselves isn't needed at all, only common sense and manga statements are needed. Hiruzen was taking on the Senju Brothers when Orochimaru revived them, that is a massive power drop. A power drop Madara will suffer, but worse, if revived by Tobirama, considering it was stated Orochimaru perfected ET, meaning he must have improved Tobirama's version.

Even if it was equal to Kabuto's ET (Which is BS) then he wouldn't be able to use Sage Mode as its only temporary. Once the Senjutsu chakra runs out, no more Sage Mode. Unless you are sitting here and telling us that the Senjutsu chakra he stole from Hashirama lasted this long, even after Madara was dead, then he doesn't have Sage Mode nor does he have Hashirama's Shinsuusenju. Only Perfect Susanoo, which means he gets beaten by the Edo Hokage, badly.

Not to mention its lolworthy to believe he can solo with Shinsuusenju in the first place considering Hashirama can use it, and he has Minato for backup. Who can use Bijuu Mode.
 

Ababeel

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Tobirama's ET is weaker than part1 Orochimaru's that brought up fodder versions of Hashirama and Madara. It's not for nothing he created the jutsu only for the edos to explode, so i don't think the edo's strength itself would make a difference regardless who he summons

Actually he did used shunshin [ ]

this. U_U

anyone of the Hokages should when by himself. Tobirama is the weakest out of the first 4 Hokages. U_U
(if we included Hiruzen's hype)
 

Brother Numpsay

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He was either in CQC or using Hiraishin. He never used Shunshin so of course you wouldn't see a speed boost. Doesn't mean that Kurama's Chakra doesn't boost speed



He was told to avoid by Tobirama, who knows nothing about the Kurama Avatar considering he hadn't seen it until Chapter 645 where Minato and Naruto used it to fight against Obito. So that isn't an argument. And Juubilaser outputs more energy, thus deals more damage than Gojo, so Naruto tanks it. That simple.

1.Kurama chakra only shown to boost specific stats that was in lacking. Juubito fight is a good example.

2. What makes you think he knows nothing about kuramas chakra? Even with that statement, he is smart enough to easily analyze his stats with observation. Just as much as Hiruzen did to Juubito. Plus TBB does not produce the same heat explosions do. Kurama chakra was shown to be burned by Lava Release. Also Goto output as a dramatic explosion output which is also much different then a laser beam.
 

WolfHaley

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Its worse or equal to Orochimaru's at the best. Looking at part 1 feats themselves isn't needed at all, only common sense and manga statements are needed. Hiruzen was taking on the Senju Brothers when Orochimaru revived them, that is a massive power drop. A power drop Madara will suffer, but worse, if revived by Tobirama, considering it was stated Orochimaru perfected ET, meaning he must have improved Tobirama's version.

Even if it was equal to Kabuto's ET (Which is BS) then he wouldn't be able to use Sage Mode as its only temporary. Once the Senjutsu chakra runs out, no more Sage Mode. Unless you are sitting here and telling us that the Senjutsu chakra he stole from Hashirama lasted this long, even after Madara was dead, then he doesn't have Sage Mode nor does he have Hashirama's Shinsuusenju. Only Perfect Susanoo, which means he gets beaten by the Edo Hokage, badly.

Not to mention its lolworthy to believe he can solo with Shinsuusenju in the first place considering Hashirama can use it, and he has Minato for backup. Who can use Bijuu Mode.

There's a clear retcon from part one to part two naruto (for example, Tobirama not using Hirashin in part one) Going by the logic that Orochimaru 'perfected' ET, then you would assume that Kabuto's best ET couldn't possibly be stronger, yet it was. Mū stated this Jutsu gave him and the Mizukage some degree of bother during their reign. Would this make any sense if it was at the dismal level of part one Oro? No, obviously not. It is a retcon, and Tobirama should be inferior to part one by logic, but that's not the way Kishi rolls, and the fact that Tobirama is unfazed by Orochimaru's improved ET implies to me that he's capable of higher level summoning.

Don't jump to conclusions. Madara used Senjutsu both in his revived state and the Rikudo state, this means that he is now able to sense Senjutsu chakra and by extension, gather it by himself.

I fail to see how he doesn't have Shinsusenju, when even Zetsu did. Add the strengthening ability of adding Susano'o as an armor and you have something even stronger than Shinsusenju, and a weaker Kurama isn't going to faze Susano'o's durability when it casually shrugged off a Bijuu Dama in a weaker state from a stronger Kurama.

Not to mention Madara can surpress the Kyuubi's power, or summon the mazou and tear it away from him. Or encase it in a 'true' Chibaku Tensei.
 

KidGamer65

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1.Kurama chakra only shown to boost specific stats that was in lacking. Juubito fight is a good example.

Wrong. It boosts all physical stats. No reason to believe otherwise.


2. What makes you think he knows nothing about kuramas chakra? Even with that statement, he is smart enough to easily analyze his stats with observation. Just as much as Hiruzen did to Juubito. Plus TBB does not produce the same heat explosions do. Kurama chakra was shown to be burned by Lava Release. Also Goto output as a dramatic explosion output which is also much different then a laser beam.

Never said that he doesn't know about Kurama's Chakra. He simply doesn't know about the Kurama Avatar itself, or its limits. Nothing implies that he does. Nothing at all. Saying he'll analyze it like Hiruzen did to Juubito makes no sense since he can't analyze what he can't see, and he hadn't seen the Avatar when he told Minato to get away. So again, you have no point here.

KCM Naruto was burned while using the standard cloak. I'm talking about a much stronger cloak, so it doesn't even apply here.

Not to mention him not wanting Minato to get hit by the attack, doesn't mean that he won't tell him to get away.

The properties of the jutsu is what is different, the energy is all the same. At the end of the day, some attacks are weaker than others. Gojo is weaker than the Juubi's laser, so Minato tanks it. Its overall stronger, and it focuses that strength on a point more than Gojo does since Gojo is an explosion while the laser is a laser.

No matter how you cut it, Gojo is too weak to be a factor here.

There's a clear retcon from part one to part two naruto (for example, Tobirama not using Hirashin in part one) Going by the logic that Orochimaru 'perfected' ET, then you would assume that Kabuto's best ET couldn't possibly be stronger, yet it was. Mū stated this Jutsu gave him and the Mizukage some degree of bother during their reign. Would this make any sense if it was at the dismal level of part one Oro? No, obviously not. It is a retcon, and Tobirama should be inferior to part one by logic, but that's not the way Kishi rolls, and the fact that Tobirama is unfazed by Orochimaru's improved ET implies to me that he's capable of higher level summoning.

Lol, there is no retcon from Part 1 to Part 2 involved here considering , that Orochimaru perfected Edo Tensei. So this retcon argument gets flushed down the toilet. All this means is that he didn't mean perfect in the sense that it couldn't get any better, but more like perfect in the sense that its fully functional. All I know is, that its a fact that Kabuto's Edo Tensei is better than Orochimaru's, and Orochimaru's is better than Tobirama's. That's a fact you'll have to deal with.


@bold: You can't be serious. So now we are using "retcon" as counterarguments to established facts? And on top of it, you are using the bold as some kind of evidence for your claim, when it makes no sense to do so. Tobirama wasn't fazed because him being revived at full power means that he can break Orochimaru's binding. Don't know where your idea came from, but its baseless.

Don't jump to conclusions. Madara used Senjutsu both in his revived state and the Rikudo state, this means that he is now able to sense Senjutsu chakra and by extension, gather it by himself.
I should be saying this to you, especially since your conclusion makes no sense based on evidence.

1. Madara used Senjutsu in his revived state because he stole it from Hashirama. If he could gather Nature Energy by himself, then why would he go through the trouble of taking Hashirama's? Where is the proof that he can even do so? Cause I'm pretty sure that the manga explicitly stated that you need to train for Sage Mode to be able to gather Nature Energy. He can only sense Nature Energy while in Sage Mode. He can't gather it.

2. He used Senjutsu when he had the Juubi because the Juubi is nothing but Nature Energy. Not because he stole Hashirama's Sage Mode, which should have long worn off by that time.

I fail to see how he doesn't have Shinsusenju, when even Zetsu did. Add the strengthening ability of adding Susano'o as an armor and you have something even stronger than Shinsusenju, and a weaker Kurama isn't going to faze Susano'o's durability when it casually shrugged off a Bijuu Dama in a weaker state from a stronger Kurama.
Its fodder compared to Hashirama without Sage Mode, which he does not have, Susanoo isn't going to put it above Hashirama's SS. It'd just result in a force weaker than PS Kurama.

Not to mention Madara can surprise the Kyuubi's power, or summon the mazou and tear it away from him.

Edo Tensei=Fake Rinnegan. Fake Rinnnegan means no Gedo Summoning. So no, he can't do that.
 
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WolfHaley

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-reserved-

All this means is that he didn't mean perfect in the sense that it couldn't get any better, but more like perfect in the sense that its fully functional.

Lol? Isn't being fully functional and being better [than crappy part ones] the same thing? Proof that it wasn't functional before?

Didn't realise about the fake Rinnegan. And lel, *surpress, not surprise.

Will make an actual rebuttal later.
 
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KidGamer65

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-reserved-



Lol? Isn't being fully functional and being better [than crappy part ones] the same thing? Proof that it wasn't functional before?

Didn't realise about the fake Rinnegan. And lel, *surpress, not surprise.

Will make an actual rebuttal later.

Never said it wasn't functional.

I'm not going to bother arguing what Kabuto meant when he said "perfect", not when its clear that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei is superior to Tobirama's, which is my point. You can break down Kabuto's words later, on your own.
 

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Hashirama solos Minato solos Hiruzen solos

ejblack must have really thought tobirama could win lmao
 

WolfHaley

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Hmm, I've actually changed my mind. Because Hiruzen and Hashirama are there Tobirama probably loses. I stand by what I said though, not much point going into details :shrugs and Tobirama using Zombies that could give Kage level opponents bother, when someone as unstoppable as Hashirama revived in part one wouldn't even get by Sakura is enough for me to say, with confidence, Tobirama's ET isn't/shouldn't be beneath Oro's.

But I never did assert Tobirama was superior to Oro based on him not being surprised on the improvements :? I only said it implied it, and this is the guy that proudly boasts he created the Jutsu and acknowledges that being brought back stronger was a possibility.
 
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