Hiruzen vs 3T Kakashi

BenjerminGaye

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Basic Sharingan Kakashi is not Kage Level, he's an elite Jonin. That's my argument.

3t sharingan fought and defeated many s-rank ninja, and was considered for the position of kage before the ppl in power caught wind/knowledge of his ms. Thus he is kage lvl.
Debunked your argument.
 

Demonic.

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3t sharingan fought and defeated many s-rank ninja, and was considered for the position of kage before the ppl in power caught wind/knowledge of his ms. Thus he is kage lvl.
Debunked your argument.
We don't know how many S Rank Ninja Hiruzen defeated. Just because none are listed in the manga you think he actually defeated none? Sometimes you need to take the hype into account see. Kakashi was considered for Kage, but Hiruzen actually became Kage.
 

BenjerminGaye

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We don't know how many S Rank Ninja Hiruzen defeated. Just because none are listed in the manga you think he actually defeated none? Sometimes you need to take the hype into account see. Kakashi was considered for Kage, but Hiruzen actually became Kage.

It doesn't matter how many s-rank hiruzen defeated. The fact that both defeated s-rank means both are comparable in skill.

And no. Kakashi was kage before danzo worked his way into the spot and after danzo died.
 

Demonic.

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It doesn't matter how many s-rank hiruzen defeated. The fact that both defeated s-rank means both are comparable in skill.

And no. Kakashi was kage before danzo worked his way into the spot and after danzo died.

That was in the anime only. In the manga Kakashi was never proclaimed Kage. Tsunade awakened before that. And I'm not saying Kakashi can't hang with Hiruzen. I'm saying he can't defeat Hiruzen.
 

BenjerminGaye

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That was in the anime only. In the manga Kakashi was never proclaimed Kage. Tsunade awakened before that. And I'm not saying Kakashi can't hang with Hiruzen. I'm saying he can't defeat Hiruzen.

Kakashi was proclaimed/considered kage by tsunade(a kage herself) garra(a kage himself) jman(considered for kage spot) and the fire Lord/damiyo. The only reason he wasn't inaugurated was because tsunade woke up.
 

makosheva7

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It's speed versus versatility here. Kakashi also has sharingan genjutsu and basic genjutsu but it wouldn't be a stretch to say the Third Hokage is an expert in genjutsu himself. I say he's versatile because of the range of elemental jutsu he has. This way he can cancel out any elemental jutsu kakashi has (his raiton, suiton, doton). It's also not a stretch to say Hiruzen is more intelligent than Kakashi. With 1 pro to Kakashi and 3 pros to Hiruzen, Hiruzen wins mid diff.
 

BenjerminGaye

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It's speed versus versatility here. Kakashi also has sharingan genjutsu and basic genjutsu but it wouldn't be a stretch to say the Third Hokage is an expert in genjutsu himself. I say he's versatile because of the range of elemental jutsu he has. This way he can cancel out any elemental jutsu kakashi has (his raiton, suiton, doton). It's also not a stretch to say Hiruzen is more intelligent than Kakashi. With 1 pro to Kakashi and 3 pros to Hiruzen, Hiruzen wins mid diff.

Kakashi has superior speed strength and stamina. Their genjutsu by is equal.their intel by data book is equal. Ninjutsu is equal as well since they counter each other. So the pro's you gave hiruzen are actually ties. Leaving kakashi up by 3.
 

Black Wolf

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I'm not a fan of Hiruzen or Kakashi. But I can't accept Basic Sharingan Kakashi > Hiruzen. Hiruzen does lack feats in the manga, but seriously sometimes the hype speaks for itself.

This is basically hot air to compromise for your lack of argument. Constantly quoting me and repeating "Hiruzen > Kakashi" is not an argument. You've said it numerous times, and not once have you backed it.

We don't know how many S Rank Ninja Hiruzen defeated. Just because none are listed in the manga you think he actually defeated none? Sometimes you need to take the hype into account see. Kakashi was considered for Kage, but Hiruzen actually became Kage.

And with this lovely logic, Naruto, Sasuke, and Obito are all weaker than Hiruzen by mere virtue of being Genin and Chunin respectively, am I correct? Madara failed to become a Kage as well, as did Gai . . . they are weaker than Hiruzen as well, I take it? How about Nagato? Some of these guys didn't even have ranks, so I guess Hiruzen would have a field day with them.
 

Black Wolf

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Kakashi has superior speed strength and stamina. Their genjutsu by is equal.their intel by data book is equal. Ninjutsu is equal as well since they counter each other. So the pro's you gave hiruzen are actually ties. Leaving kakashi up by 3.

Hiruzen has a higher Genjutsu stat, but he has never utilize a single Genjutsu in the manga and also failed to break out of the only Genjutsu he was placed in, instead actually grabbing onto the Genjutsu caster (who was toying with him) rather than release the Genjutsu wit Kai or chakra control, so the stat is overall meaningless. This is furthered by the fact that Sharingan is not factored into the DB score, given Hebi Sasuke, with only a 4, managed to subdue Orochimaru, who had a 5.

Their intelligence is equal in the DB, but Kakashi's superiority in intelligence has been highlighted on numerous occasions. No other character in the manga has had their intelligence and in-battle tactics praised as much as Kakashi, barring Shikimaru, whose plans usually took more time and were not generated on the fly. People like Itachi and even Sasuke have far better feats of coming up with tactics while in battle, despite having a lower on-paper IQ than Shikimaru.

Having an equal stat when both are roof-tier (i.e. cannot go any higher) diminishes value of said stat, as numerous characters have 5's in intelligence (Orochimaru, Tsunade, etc). While this is not to say that they don't deserve that 5, the fact that that is the highest stat one can achieve makes it "worth less" to characters with superiority in that specific field.

Regarding Ninjutsu, I'm not sure why people have this idea that they will stand there shooting elemental attacks at each other. Kakashi's speed will come into play here, allowing him to flank Hiruzen from behind / from the side and put the pressure on him. Having more elements is great, but it is meaningless if your opponent does not allow you to execute them. Asuma have Futon does not automatically make him stronger than the Raikage, as his Futon elemental superiority will never come into play when he is being constantly flanked.

Elemental superiority will only help if the person with the elemental advantage can actually apply the aforementioned elemental advantage. When they are tiers slower and less reflexive than their opponent, it won't even come into play to begin with.
 
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Demonic.

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This is basically hot air to compromise for your lack of argument. Constantly quoting me and repeating "Hiruzen > Kakashi" is not an argument. You've said it numerous times, and not once have you backed it.



And with this lovely logic, Naruto, Sasuke, and Obito are all weaker than Hiruzen by mere virtue of being Genin and Chunin respectively, am I correct? Madara failed to become a Kage as well, as did Gai . . . they are weaker than Hiruzen as well, I take it? How about Nagato? Some of these guys didn't even have ranks, so I guess Hiruzen would have a field day with them.
By feats Kakashi, by Hype Hiruzen. Hiruzen isn't any weakling either. If Kakashi beats him it's not going to be easy.
 

DarkStar1

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Basic Sharingan Kakashi is not Kage Level, he's an elite Jonin. That's my argument.

What's the basis for this assumption? Base/3T Kakashi had worldwide notoriety for being a genius and incredible ninja as well as defeating several Kage level shinobi without using his Mangekyou Sharingan. How exactly is that not Kage level?

On topic, I'm taking Kakashi for the fight. It'll be a scrap, but he can pull it off with medium difficulty.
 
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shelke

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Which Kage level ninja has Kakashi defeated on his own and without MS? I would love to see that list.
 
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Selan

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Without MS Kakashi is not a kage lvl ninja..!!

LOL

Read , it will help to understand a little bit more this manga.

And I agree with everything that Black Wolf said. This guy is giving you a free lesson on manga facts and feats, you should thank him.

Kakashi dodges everything Hiruzen tries to do, then tricks him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin or speedblitzes him. Either way Raikiri pierces the Hokage's heart or Raiden bisects his body in two.
 

Demonic.

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What's the basis for this assumption? Base/3T Kakashi had worldwide notoriety for being a genius and incredible ninja as well as defeating several Kage level shinobi without using his Mangekyou Sharingan. How exactly is that not Kage level?

On topic, I'm taking Kakashi for the fight. It'll be a scrap, but he can pull it off with medium difficulty.

What is the list of Kage Level Ninja Kakashi without MS has defeated? I don't recall anyone. And if you're using worldwide notoriety in your argument Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of the 5 Kage.

Has Kamui ever even killed anyone? Ever? Kakashi is being overrated.
 
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