Hiruzen vs 3T Kakashi

[LuckyMan]

It's not an excuse it's the truth. Seeing the gap in power between edo madara and madara's rebirth is proof enough.
What's even worse is the fact that the first time it was showcased it was nowhere near perfect. As it stands its like:
Living full power>part 2 oro edo> kabuto edo>part 1 oro edo>tobirama edo. In terms of the actual body's natural ability.

Edo Madara didn't have sage mode, he also wasn't a Juubi Jin. That whole point is invalid.

Nowhere near perfect?! Perfect enough that Oro used it. If it was as you said then it wouldn't have been a viable option to use against Hiruzen altogether.

 

[Demonic.]

No. It applies to everyone. The only reason edo itachi is seemingly stronger than living itavhi is because edo itachi isn't sick. Just like how edo nagato isn't crippled.

War arc kakashi takes a colossal dump on part 1 oro while tobirama and hashirama spend eternity in kamuiland

All the revived kages didn't seem any weaker. Neither did Zabuza and Haku if anything they seemed stronger. And war arc Kakashi improved but Sanin Level? I don't think so.

 

[Black Wolf]

You're comparing a Jonin, that was scared to death at Orochimaru to the third hokage? [

Yeah, we are.

Since that moment, Kakashi has taken on guys that would eat Orochimaru for breakfast, like Obito, Pain, Itachi, and a V2 Sharingan / Rinnegan Jinchuuriki.

Of course, if you are adamant on getting hung on something that happened 600 chapters ago, then Kakashi is the strongest person in the manga for defeating Naruto and Sasuke, the two strongest characters in history, without his Sharingan active and while reading a novel.

You guys saying Kakashi stands a chance forget that Hiruzen took on Orochimaru+ Tobirama + Hashirama. He defeated Tobirama and Hashirama and would've defeated Orochimaru had he not been exhausted. He did manage to seal his arms. Kakashi wouldn't have done sh*t to Orochimaru not to mention Hashirama and Tobirama edos. Hiruzen> Kakashi

Please stop pretending that the performance of those Edo's is relevant in Part II. Tobirama using a sourceless Suiton was a big deal, yet you see Darui, Kakashi, and a group of nameless shinobi emulated the same thing. Yamato, who by all intent and purposes is an above average Jonin, outperformed the "God of Shinobi" in Mokuton based on Part I feats.

Furthermore, Orochimaru stood there taunting Hiruzen for the entire battle and commanded the Edo's to toy with him all the same, further hampering their performance (if being brought weaker wasn't enough of a handicap).

So yeah, Kakashi is stronger than an Orochimaru who stands there and does nothing and two barely Jonin fighters.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Edo Madara didn't have sage mode, he also wasn't a Juubi Jin. That whole point is invalid.

edo maddy had mukton and double rinne yet couldn't use limbo. Rebirth maddy had the same things yet solo'd sasuke, tobirama, and all 9 biju.

Nowhere near perfect?! Perfect enough that Oro used it. If it was as you said then it wouldn't have been a viable option to use against Hiruzen altogether.

Yamato, obito, and spiral zetsu have shown better mukton than part 1 hashirama. That's how imperfect the tech was back then yet when revived again the scale of his techniques went up by a factor of 10. That's how bad it was .

@an awesome senju they were. Hence no large scale water techs, or haku not using all of the mirrors.

Kakashi was already considered for the hokage spot multiple times and for a short time held the kage spot. And if you didn't know kage>sannin.

 

[Black Wolf]

I'm pretty sure the whole "Edo is weaker" argument only pertains to shinobi of a certain caliber, ala Madara, Tobirama, and Hashirama, people who can bend people over just by "flexing" their chakra alone. There hasn't been much emphasis on this fact for any other individuals except those 3. Hashirama and Tobirama outright said they were weaker, while Hashirama noted "Madara's strength has returned" the moment he was brought back to life via Rinne Tensei.

Purely speculation on my part, but my guess is those three were too powerful for their strength to be emulated by reanimation jutsu. Those three fighters were given specific notice and their weakness in Edo form was emphasized at least once in their appearances.

But how does any of this pertain to this thread? Tobirama and Hashirama fall under the category of people weakened by Edo Tensei. It still does not change the fact that Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama were significantly weaker in Part I than they were in Part II as Edo's; they themselves took note of this.

The feats that Tobirama and Hashirama were pulling off in Part I would hardly qualify as Jonin level, and trying to push that under the carpet by saying "they are Hokages" is nonsensical.

 

[Demonic.]

Yeah, we are.

Since that moment, Kakashi has taken on guys that would eat Orochimaru for breakfast, like Obito, Pain, Itachi, and a V2 Sharingan / Rinnegan Jinchuuriki.

Of course, if you are adamant on getting hung on something that happened 600 chapters ago, then Kakashi is the strongest person in the manga for defeating Naruto and Sasuke, the two strongest characters in history, without his Sharingan active and while reading a novel.



Please stop pretending that the performance of those Edo's is relevant in Part II. Tobirama using a sourceless Suiton was a big deal, yet you see Darui, Kakashi, and a group of nameless shinobi emulated the same thing. Yamato, who by all intent and purposes is an above average Jonin, outperformed the "God of Shinobi" in Mokuton based on Part I feats.

Furthermore, Orochimaru stood there taunting Hiruzen for the entire battle and commanded the Edo's to toy with him all the same, further hampering their performance (if being brought weaker wasn't enough of a handicap).

So yeah, Kakashi is stronger than an Orochimaru who stands there and does nothing and two barely Jonin fighters.

Kakashi has Kamui so Obito lost his strongest defense. It was an even fight. I'd like to see Orochimaru vs Obito without Obito using his Kamui. Kakashi VS Pain? You mean when Pain killed Kakashi low difficult? Itachi one shotted Kakashi in Part 1 and in Part 2 he kept up with an Itachi that had 30% strength and couldn't use MS.. He had Might Guy, Killer Bee, and Naruto as back up when he took on the Jubito. Id like to see Kakashi take on 4 tailed Naruto BY HIMSELF while enjoying himself. Kakashi is not stronger than Orochimaru.

 

[Black Wolf]

Kakashi has Kamui so Obito lost his strongest defense.

This was never your argument.

Your argument was "Kakashi shit his pants against Orochimaru in Part I, thus he stands no chance against Hiruzen, who matched Orochimaru."

I replied by telling you that Kakashi has fought people stronger than Orochimaru without shitting his pants, and holding something against him that happened 600 chapters ago is just about as nonsensical as me saying Kakashi is still strong enough to beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, while reading a novel.

Kakashi lost his best defense / offense too, so I'm not sure what you're getting at regardless.

I'd like to see Orochimaru vs Obito without Obito using his Kamui.

Orochimaru has fallen to Sharingan Genjutsu on more than one occasion, and nothing indicates it will take anything more than that here.

Kakashi VS Pain? You mean when Pain killed Kakashi low difficult?

Again, this was never your argument. Your argument was that Kakashi being scared to fight Orochimaru in Part I reflects how current Kakashi would perform against Hiruzen, which as I've said before, is nonsensical.

But I'll humor you anyway. Kakashi was inches away from killing Pain. Nearly dying against Kakashi and praising him to the point that Pain expressed concern getting too close to Kakashi =/= low difficulty, and that was a weaker version of the Kakashi we are dealing with here.

Itachi one shotted Kakashi in Part 1

Kakashi beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, the former while reading a novel in Part I.

In Part 2 he kept up with an Itachi that had 30% strength and couldn't use MS.

For the third time, Kakashi's performance has no bearing on what your initial point was, which was Kakashi being scared by Orochimaru reflecting Kakashi's performance against Hiruzen.

Itachi's physical stats were the same, only his chakra pool was affected, not to mention the fact that Kakashi didn't use Mangekyou either.

He had Might Guy, Killer Bee, and Naruto as back up when he took on the Jubito. Id like to see Kakashi take on 4 tailed Naruto BY HIMSELF while enjoying himself.

I am talking about the V2 Sharingan / Rinnegan Jinchuuriki Kakashi fought. Kakashi never fought Juubi Obito.

Orochimaru "enjoying himself" has no bearing on how much effort he put into the battle, as that is his general mindset in any battle he partakes in.

Kakashi is not stronger than Orochimaru.

Of course he is.

It isn't my problem that you are still living in the past, though and using grossly outdated feats for the basis of your argument.

 

[Demonic.]

This was never your argument.

Your argument was "Kakashi shit his pants against Orochimaru in Part I, thus he stands no chance against Hiruzen, who matched Orochimaru."

I replied by telling you that Kakashi has fought people stronger than Orochimaru without shitting his pants, and holding something against him that happened 600 chapters ago is just about as nonsensical as me saying Kakashi is still strong enough to beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, while reading a novel.

Kakashi lost his best defense / offense too, so I'm not sure what you're getting at regardless.



Orochimaru has fallen to Sharingan Genjutsu on more than one occasion, and nothing indicates it will take anything more than that here.



Again, this was never your argument. Your argument was that Kakashi being scared to fight Orochimaru in Part I reflects how current Kakashi would perform against Hiruzen, which as I've said before, is nonsensical.

But I'll humor you anyway. Kakashi was inches away from killing Pain. Nearly dying against Kakashi and praising him to the point that Pain expressed concern getting too close to Kakashi =/= low difficulty, and that was a weaker version of the Kakashi we are dealing with here.



Kakashi beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, the former while reading a novel in Part I.



For the third time, Kakashi's performance has no bearing on what your initial point was, which was Kakashi being scared by Orochimaru reflecting Kakashi's performance against Hiruzen.

Itachi's physical stats were the same, only his chakra pool was affected, not to mention the fact that Kakashi didn't use Mangekyou either.



I am talking about the V2 Sharingan / Rinnegan Jinchuuriki Kakashi fought. Kakashi never fought Juubi Obito.

Orochimaru "enjoying himself" has no bearing on how much effort he put into the battle, as that is his general mindset in any battle he partakes in.



Of course he is.

It isn't my problem that you are still living in the past, though and using grossly outdated feats for the basis of your argument.

Kakashi indeed has gotten stronger but I think you're overhyping him just a little bit saying he's become more powerful than Orochimaru. In a 1 VS 1 fight, really? Kakashi wins? First off, not counting the fact that he lost his sharingan and Orochimaru easily defeats him, when he still had his sharingan in the war arc he was going blind already. How is he beating Orochimaru that recovered his arms? Don't forget the only reason Kakashi did as much as he did in the war was because the 9 tails recharged his chakra TWICE.

 

[Hagoromo Reanimation]

This was never your argument.

Your argument was "Kakashi shit his pants against Orochimaru in Part I, thus he stands no chance against Hiruzen, who matched Orochimaru."

I replied by telling you that Kakashi has fought people stronger than Orochimaru without shitting his pants, and holding something against him that happened 600 chapters ago is just about as nonsensical as me saying Kakashi is still strong enough to beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, while reading a novel.

Kakashi lost his best defense / offense too, so I'm not sure what you're getting at regardless.



Orochimaru has fallen to Sharingan Genjutsu on more than one occasion, and nothing indicates it will take anything more than that here.



Again, this was never your argument. Your argument was that Kakashi being scared to fight Orochimaru in Part I reflects how current Kakashi would perform against Hiruzen, which as I've said before, is nonsensical.

But I'll humor you anyway. Kakashi was inches away from killing Pain. Nearly dying against Kakashi and praising him to the point that Pain expressed concern getting too close to Kakashi =/= low difficulty, and that was a weaker version of the Kakashi we are dealing with here.



Kakashi beat Naruto and Sasuke without his Sharingan, the former while reading a novel in Part I.



For the third time, Kakashi's performance has no bearing on what your initial point was, which was Kakashi being scared by Orochimaru reflecting Kakashi's performance against Hiruzen.

Itachi's physical stats were the same, only his chakra pool was affected, not to mention the fact that Kakashi didn't use Mangekyou either.



I am talking about the V2 Sharingan / Rinnegan Jinchuuriki Kakashi fought. Kakashi never fought Juubi Obito.

Orochimaru "enjoying himself" has no bearing on how much effort he put into the battle, as that is his general mindset in any battle he partakes in.



Of course he is.

It isn't my problem that you are still living in the past, though and using grossly outdated feats for the basis of your argument.

You really think Kakashi stronger then OroChimaru lmao

 

[Black Wolf]

In a 1 VS 1 fight, really? Kakashi wins? First off, not counting the fact that he lost his sharingan and Orochimaru easily defeats him, when he still had his sharingan in the war arc he was going blind already.

We don't use handicapped versions of a character as the baseline for aforementioned character in Versus threads, unless the OP specifically mentions it. Otherwise, Itachi is a decaying corpse lying six feet under, and Jiraiya is a dead body at the bottom of the ocean.

I guess Kakashi beats Hiruzen due to the mere fact he is still breathing while Hiruzen is dead, if you want to use "current" forms of the character.

How is he beating Orochimaru that recovered his arms?

Because Kakashi is better than Orochimaru at literally every ninja field. He is better at Genjutsu thanks to Sharingan, faster, more reflexive (thanks to Sharingan), better at Taijutsu (furthered by speed and reflexive superiority), has a superior, more versatile ninjutsu arsenal, top tier tactical capabilities, and has a trump card in the form of Kamui that Orochimaru cannot hope to counter, as do most people lacking top tier speed.

Don't forget the only reason Kakashi did as much as he did in the war was because the 9 tails recharged his chakra TWICE.

False.

Kakashi used two Kage Bunshin, eight Raikiri variants, Doton wall, and five Kamui's prior to getting recharged, and this is not taking into account off panel fighting with the Sharingan active, which is a passive drain that undoubtedly adds up over the span Kakashi was fighting.

 

[Demonic.]

We don't use handicapped versions of a character as the basis for aforementioned character in Versus threads, unless the OP specifically mentions it. Otherwise, Itachi is a decaying corpse lying six feet under, Jiraiya is a corpse at the bottom of the ocean, and even


Because Kakashi is better than Orochimaru at literally everything. He is better at Genjutsu thanks to Sharingan, faster, more reflexive (thanks to Sharingan), has a superior ninjutsu arsenal, and has a trump card in the form of Kamui that Orochimaru cannot hope to counter, as do most people lacking top tier speed.



False.

Kakashi used two Kage Bunshin, eight Raikiri variants, Doton wall, and five Kamui's prior to getting recharged, and this is not taking into account off panel fighting with the Sharingan active.

Orochimaru is not harmed by physical attacks. His true nature is a giant snake composed of thousands of small snakes. As long as a single snake survives, he survives. He's been cut in half, stabbed, dismembered, beaten to death by Kabuto and it didn't even leave a mark on him . Kakashi is not going to be defeating Orochimaru. Not to mention Orochimarus trump card edo tensei.

 

[Black Wolf]

Orochimaru is harmed by physical attacks; he just barfs out a new body when he is damaged, just like what he did against KN4 and just like what Hebi Sasuke did against Amaterasu.

Orochimaru has a chakra pool; he cannot indefinitely barf out new bodies. Kakashi continues to bisect and carve him up with Raikiri until Orochimaru runs out of juice thanks to superior physical stats. That, or he Genjutsu's Orochimaru and prevents him from using jutsu, and kills him prior to using Oral Rebirth.

Kakashi can warp Orochimaru prior to the latter releasing Edo Tensei, and can warp the coffins as well prior to their release, give Hiruzen was able to shower them with shuriken during that time.

EDIT: Hilarious thing is that this is Hiruzen vs. Kakashi, not Orochimaru vs. Kakashi. You've taken this thread off-topic a good deal, and failed to answer anything pertaining to this particular match-up.

 

[Demonic.]

Orochimaru is harmed by physical attacks; he just barfs out a new body when he is damaged, just like what he did against KN4 and just like what Hebi Sasuke did against Amaterasu.

Orochimaru has a chakra pool; he cannot indefinitely barf out new bodies. Kakashi continues to bisect and carve him up with Raikiri until Orochimaru runs out of juice thanks to superior physical stats. That, or he Genjutsu's Orochimaru and prevents him from using jutsu, and kills him prior to using Oral Rebirth.

Kakashi can warp Orochimaru prior to the latter releasing Edo Tensei, and can warp the coffins as well prior to their release, give Hiruzen was able to shower them with shuriken during that time.

You're just speculating Kakashi will be able to counter all of Orochimarus attacks. When has that ever been the case in an epic fight? Kakashi having better stamina than Orochimaru is debatable. Kakashi kills him prior to using Oral Rebirth? Kabuto killed Orochimaru. He was a corpse for a while until a new body came out. Remember when Itachi sealed Orochimaru, but a single snake escaped? If just one snake escapes then Orochimaru lives. The only times he has ever been defeated was when Sasuke absorbed him and when Itachi sealed him. He's never actually been killed. They say he's immortal for a reason.

 

[Minato namikaze123]

Without MS Kakashi is not a kage lvl ninja..!!
So hiruzen stomps..

 

[Black Wolf]

You're just speculating Kakashi will be able to counter all of Orochimarus attacks.

Arm snakes are his main style of attack, and are chopped right through with Raikiri / Raikiri kunai. Snake waves are avoided with Doton tunneling. Snake summons are either Genjutsu'd or Raiden'd / have a Raikiri projectile thrown at their skull. There is nothing that Orochimaru has that Kakashi cannot counter.

When has that ever been the case in an epic fight?

We are dealing with what we know, and what we know is limited. For the same reason, we don't speculate on Kakashi's 1000 jutsu, which holds a lot more water than whatever implication you are trying to make here.

Kakashi having better stamina than Orochimaru is debatable.

Pretty sure a Raikiri costs Kakashi less than what an Oral Rebirth costs Orochimaru. Oral Rebirth has been explicitly stated to be a tasking jutsu, while Kakashi has been casually using Raikiri like standard punches.

Kakashi kills him prior to using Oral Rebirth? Kabuto killed Orochimaru. He was a corpse for a while until a new body came out. Remember when Itachi sealed Orochimaru, but a single snake escaped? If just one snake escapes then Orochimaru lives.

Yeah, you didn't read what I just wrote. While trapped in a Genjutsu, Orochimaru cannot perform / excute jutsu, just like what happened to Zabuza being unable to complete his Suiton when Kakashi Genjutsu'd him. Oral Rebirth is a jutsu, and Orochimaru has to be in control of his body for it to be used; it is not a passive jutsu.

As I've said already, this thread is Hiruzen vs. Kakashi, and you have yet to make a single point in Hiruzen's favor except "lolHokage > Jonin," which is not an argument.

 

[Demonic.]

Arm snakes are his main style of attack, and are chopped right through with Raikiri / Raikiri kunai. Snake waves are avoided with Doton tunneling. Snake summons are either Genjutsu'd or Raiden'd / have a Raikiri projectile thrown at their skull. There is nothing that Orochimaru has that Kakashi cannot counter.



We are dealing with what we know, and what we know is limited. For the same reason, we don't speculate on Kakashi's 1000 jutsu, which holds a lot more water than whatever implication you are trying to make here.



Pretty sure a Raikiri costs Kakashi less than what an Oral Rebirth costs Orochimaru. Oral Rebirth has been explicitly stated to be a tasking jutsu, while Kakashi has been casually using Raikiri like standard punches.



Yeah, you didn't read what I just wrote. While trapped in a Genjutsu, Orochimaru cannot perform / excute jutsu, just like what happened to Zabuza being unable to complete his Suiton when Kakashi Genjutsu'd him. Oral Rebirth is a jutsu, and Orochimaru has to be in control of his body for it to be used; it is not a passive jutsu.

As I've said already, this thread is Hiruzen vs. Kakashi, and you have yet to make a single point in Hiruzen's favor except "lolHokage > Jonin," which is not an argument.

Orochimaru's arm snakes are his main style of attack? Dude he only used his arm snakes a lot because his arms were sealed in the death god. He couldn't use any jutsu. He was handicapped when he took on Naruto 4 Tails. He got his arms back from the Death God and brought back the Kages after. Kakashi Genjutsu on Orochimaru? Itachi a master of Genjutsu a places Orochimaru in a paralysis Genjutsu and it couldn't even hold him, he moved his hands to make a hand sign while still under paralysis. What makes you think Kakashi will fair better at Genjutsu?

With regard to the thread, the thread is Hiruzen versus 3 Tomoe Kakashi. No MS. Hiruzen beats Kakashi without MS not even debatable.

 

[Black Wolf]

Orochimaru's arm snakes are his main style of attack? Dude he only used his arm snakes a lot because his arms were sealed in the death god. He couldn't use any jutsu. He was handicapped when he took on Naruto 4 Tails. He got his arms back from the Death God and brought back the Kages after.

What jutsu has Orochimaru used, other than summons, arm snakes, gathering of thousand snakes (i.e. snake waves), and a low-tier Futon? Has he displayed anything else for you to be so sure he has a vast arsenal he hasn't shown us? We aren't taking into account the hypothetical jutsu that Orochimaru might have; we are dealing with what we know and what we have seen.

And even if he does have a vast arsenal, so does Kakashi; he has 1000 unshown jutsu, and has actually been hyped for it on multiple occasions; we have a strong basis to assume he knows more than we have been shown. Are we going to speculate on that as well?

Kakashi Genjutsu on Orochimaru? Itachi a master of Genjutsu a places Orochimaru in a paralysis Genjutsu and it couldn't even hold him, he moved his hands to make a hand sign while still under paralysis. What makes you think Kakashi will fair better at Genjutsu?

Part I Kakashi beat Zabuza with Genjutsu. Part II Kakashi kept up with Obito's Genjutsu, whom was able to hold down a perfect Jinchuuriki under his control for years. Gai created an entire fighting style to counter Kakashi's Genjutsu. Itachi immediately resorted to Tsukuyomi when facing even Part I Kakashi. Orochimaru was beaten with base 3-tomoe Genjutsu.

Being able to Kai out of a Genjutsu =/= immunity. You must first realize you are in the Genjutsu and then take the time and gather the chakra to Kai out. It is a process, and during the time you are Kai'ing out / attempting to Kai out, you are literally a sitting duck to the Genjutsu caster (unless you have a Sharingan and can put up resistance / counter offense, which Hiruzen does not have).

Being rendered immobile for a second during a match-up of this caliber is enough to cost you the match. Gai knew how to Kai out of Genjutsu; hell, he Kai'd out of an A-ranked Genjutsu on panel, yet he still found it necessary to develop a fighting style just to cope with Kakashi's Genjutsu. Even if he could potentially Kai out of Kakashi's Genjutsu, being rendered immobile for even a second against someone like Kakashi would cost him the match.

With regard to the thread, the thread is Hiruzen versus 3 Tomoe Kakashi. No MS. Hiruzen beats Kakashi without MS not even debatable.

Get off your high-horse; of course it's debatable. That is why there is a thread on it, and that is why a large number of people agree that Kakashi defeats Hiruzen.

Kakashi has superior stamina, superior speed and reflexes, Genjutsu, and combined with his trademark tactical Kage Bunshin + Doton feints, he shouldn't have much difficulty tagging and bagging Hiruzen. He literally is better than Hiruzen at everything, barring less elements at his disposal.

You haven't posted a solid argument other than "lolHokage > Jonin," and posting irrelevant statements about Part I Kakashi being scared of Orochimaru, as if that has any bearing on this match-up or on this much more powerful version of Kakashi.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Orochimaru's arm snakes are his main style of attack? Dude he only used his arm snakes a lot because his arms were sealed in the death god. He couldn't use any jutsu. He was handicapped when he took on Naruto 4 Tails. He got his arms back from the Death God and brought back the Kages after. Kakashi Genjutsu on Orochimaru? Itachi a master of Genjutsu a places Orochimaru in a paralysis Genjutsu and it couldn't even hold him, he moved his hands to make a hand sign while still under paralysis. What makes you think Kakashi will fair better at Genjutsu?

With regard to the thread, the thread is Hiruzen versus 3 Tomoe Kakashi. No MS. Hiruzen beats Kakashi without MS not even debatable.

You haven't posted a good reason as to why hiruzen wins other than "hurr durr hiruzen is kage lvl while kakashi is jounin lvl" the only person here that put up a reasonable argument was mick nerks and well.. that already got debunked.

 

[Demonic.]

You haven't posted a good reason as to why hiruzen wins other than "hurr durr hiruzen is kage lvl while kakashi is jounin lvl" the only person here that put up a reasonable argument was mick nerks and well.. that already got debunked.

Basic Sharingan Kakashi is not Kage Level, he's an elite Jonin. That's my argument.

 

[Demonic.]

What jutsu has Orochimaru used, other than summons, arm snakes, gathering of thousand snakes (i.e. snake waves), and a low-tier Futon? Has he displayed anything else for you to be so sure he has a vast arsenal he hasn't shown us? We aren't taking into account the hypothetical jutsu that Orochimaru might have; we are dealing with what we know and what we have seen.

And even if he does have a vast arsenal, so does Kakashi; he has 1000 unshown jutsu, and has actually been hyped for it on multiple occasions; we have a strong basis to assume he knows more than we have been shown. Are we going to speculate on that as well?



Part I Kakashi beat Zabuza with Genjutsu. Part II Kakashi kept up with Obito's Genjutsu, whom was able to hold down a perfect Jinchuuriki under his control for years. Gai created an entire fighting style to counter Kakashi's Genjutsu. Itachi immediately resorted to Tsukuyomi when facing even Part I Kakashi. Orochimaru was beaten with base 3-tomoe Genjutsu.

Being able to Kai out of a Genjutsu =/= immunity. You must first realize you are in the Genjutsu and then take the time and gather the chakra to Kai out. It is a process, and during the time you are Kai'ing out / attempting to Kai out, you are literally a sitting duck to the Genjutsu caster (unless you have a Sharingan and can put up resistance / counter offense, which Hiruzen does not have).

Being rendered immobile for a second during a match-up of this caliber is enough to cost you the match. Gai knew how to Kai out of Genjutsu; hell, he Kai'd out of an A-ranked Genjutsu on panel, yet he still found it necessary to develop a fighting style just to cope with Kakashi's Genjutsu. Even if he could potentially Kai out of Kakashi's Genjutsu, being rendered immobile for even a second against someone like Kakashi would cost him the match.



Get off your high-horse; of course it's debatable. That is why there is a thread on it, and that is why a large number of people agree that Kakashi defeats Hiruzen.

Kakashi has superior stamina, superior speed and reflexes, Genjutsu, and combined with his trademark tactical Kage Bunshin + Doton feints, he shouldn't have much difficulty tagging and bagging Hiruzen. He literally is better than Hiruzen at everything, barring less elements at his disposal.

You haven't posted a solid argument other than "lolHokage > Jonin," and posting irrelevant statements about Part I Kakashi being scared of Orochimaru, as if that has any bearing on this match-up or on this much more powerful version of Kakashi.

I'm not a fan of Hiruzen or Kakashi. But I can't accept Basic Sharingan Kakashi > Hiruzen. Hiruzen does lack feats in the manga, but seriously sometimes the hype speaks for itself.