Hiruzen vs 3T Kakashi

[GokuEn]

Conditions: This is old Hiruzen, He has Enma summoned, Kakashi has his dogs summoned, Kakashi has 3T feats (NO MS)

Location: Forest of Death

Intent: To Kill

Intel: Full on both sides

Restrictions: Death Seal, Neutralizer bs

 

[Gein]

Hiruzen comfortably.

 

[GokuEn]

Hiruzen comfortably.

Can you explain how?

 

[Black Wolf]

Kakashi is literally better than Hiruzen at everything barring the strength of his summons. He is faster, more reflexive thanks to Sharingan, and can hamper his opponent with Genjutsu to slow him down. His Doton tunneling and Kage Bunshin tactical feats have never failed to work against Dojutsu users, so I see no reason why they wouldn't work here.

Hiruzen has the advantage of firepower mainly due to his Edo feats, but nothing indicates he could do that multiple times when living. For all we know, if he tries to do KB / elemental spam while alive, he would deplete his chakra. We have every reason to believe Hiruzen would be more conservative with his chakra than as an Edo. Furthermore, with Kakashi's speed as well as full knowledge, dodging shouldn't be too big of an issue.

The location caters to Kakashi's fighting style. He has summons that can track, has a technique that can conceal him (Doton), and has shown the ability to move silently, as displayed when he back stabbed Kakuzu. All Hiruzen has is his nose, which isn't as good as Kakashi's dogs, not to mention Kakashi has shown the ability to sniff out enemies himself as well as a child (and has hype from Naruto for having a nose on par with Kiba's).

 

[Gein]

Can you explain how?

Kakashi's dogs won't help much. Enma is a much more combat oriented summon.
Has stronger chakra and chakra control.
Comparable to Kakashi's intelligence
Taijutsu able to compete with Orochimaru and edo Senju bros.
Able to use five elements.
Most likely knows Kakashi in and out.

 

[Gein]

Kakashi is literally better than Hiruzen at everything barring the strength of his summons. He is faster, more reflexive thanks to Sharingan, and can hamper his opponent with Genjutsu to slow him down. His Doton tunneling and Kage Bunshin tactical feats have never failed to work against Dojutsu users, so I see no reason why they wouldn't work here.

Hiruzen has the advantage of firepower mainly due to his Edo feats, but nothing indicates he could do that multiple times when living. For all we know, if he tries to do KB / elemental spam while alive, he would deplete his chakra. We have every reason to believe Hiruzen would be more conservative with his chakra than as an Edo. Furthermore, with Kakashi's speed as well as full knowledge, dodging shouldn't be too big of an issue.

The location caters to Kakashi's fighting style. He has summons that can track, has a technique that can conceal him (Doton), and has shown the ability to move silently, as displayed when he back stabbed Kakuzu. All Hiruzen has is his nose, which isn't as good as Kakashi's dogs, not to mention Kakashi has shown the ability to sniff out enemies himself as well as a child (and has hype from Naruto for having a nose on par with Kiba's).

Hiruzen's nose is just as good as Kiba's and Akamaru's.
Hiruzen has amazing chakra control using jutsu with the most power and minimum chakra.
Kakashi isn't all that good with genjutsu.
3t Sharingan isn't that great. Sharingan has been beaten or stalemated many times.

 

[Gagster]

3T Kakashi? The same one that was scared shitless of Orochimaru, the same Orochimaru that Hiruzen fought off along with the 1st and 2nd Hokage?

Hiruzen no doubt.

 

[GokuEn]

3T Kakashi? The same one that was scared shitless of Orochimaru, the same Orochimaru that Hiruzen fought off along with the 1st and 2nd Hokage?

Hiruzen no doubt.

No youre thinking of Part 1 Kakashi, 3T Kakashi is War Arc Kakashi without MS

 

[Black Wolf]

Hiruzen's best feat is sniffing out Hokage's within close proximity (not to mention he probably already was familiar with their scent given they were his teachers). Kakashi emulated that when he was a kid in the Gaiden.

Having good chakra control isn't a placeholder for unlimited stamina. Alive Hiruzen used a Katon, a Doton, summoned Enma, KB shuriken, and used two Kage Bunshin before dying. Kakashi was able to use two Kage Bunshin, eight Raikiri variants, a Doton wall, and five Kamui before getting tired, and we know Kamui is far more exhausting than any of the other jutsu. With Kamui restricted, Kakashi has far more flexibility with his base arsenal.

Kakashi defeated Zabuza with Genjutsu. It was proficient enough to force Gai to develop an entire fighting style just to counter his Genjutsu, despite knowing the Kai method (and using it to escape A-ranked jutsu). It was powerful enough to match Obito's Genjutsu, whom was able to Genjutsu a perfect Jinchuuriki for years.

Sharingan provides precognition and Genjutsu prowess. Telling me "it's been beaten many times" isn't an argument, especially when a large portion of those "times" were against a superior Sharingan user, a Sage Mode sensor, or a top tier speedster, none of which Hiruzen is. You'd have to explain what Hiruzen actually does to "beat" or "stalemate" it.

 

[LuckyMan]

Hiruzen wins low difficulty. Is the Neutralizer restricted? Wait yes it is. In that case, Hiruzen wins low difficulty. Enma can arguably solo Kakashi alone.

 

[Gein]

Hiruzen's best feat is sniffing out Hokage's within close proximity (not to mention he probably already was familiar with their scent given they were his teachers). Kakashi emulated that when he was a kid in the Gaiden.

Having good chakra control isn't a placeholder for unlimited stamina. Alive Hiruzen used a Katon, a Doton, summoned Enma, KB shuriken, and used two Kage Bunshin before dying. Kakashi was able to use two Kage Bunshin, eight Raikiri variants, a Doton wall, and five Kamui before getting tired, and we know Kamui is far more exhausting than any of the other jutsu. With Kamui restricted, Kakashi has far more flexibility with his base arsenal.

Kakashi defeated Zabuza with Genjutsu. It was proficient enough to force Gai to develop an entire fighting style just to counter his Genjutsu, despite knowing the Kai method (and using it to escape A-ranked jutsu). It was powerful enough to match Obito's Genjutsu, whom was able to Genjutsu a perfect Jinchuuriki for years.

Sharingan provides precognition and Genjutsu prowess. Telling me "it's been beaten many times" isn't an argument, especially when a large portion of those "times" were against a superior Sharingan user, a sensor, or a top tier speedster, none of which Hiruzen is. You'd have to explain what Hiruzen actually does to counter it.

Well first of all sense of smell isnt an issue in this fight. If anyones running to hide its Kakashi.

Hiruzen would have just as much stamina as Kakashi if not more. Kakashi's stamina sucks because of the sharingan.

Kakashi defeated Zabuza with the help of three genin.

Hashirama beat the strongest known sharingan user. Hiruzen is the only coming close to Hashi's power.
Despite Hiruzen not being a top tier speedster he is a top tier analytical combat master.

Hiruzen also knows exactly what Sharingan is and what it does. Besides probably EMS and the abilities Kakashi does not have with his.

 

[Black Wolf]

Of course smell is an issue in a fight in the middle of the forest, where line of sight will be obstructed.

How are you going to tell me that Hiruzen would have the same / if not more chakra than Kakashi when Kakashi's stamina feats absolutely destroy Hiruzen's?

Again, Hiruzen used:

1) Shuriken Kage Bunshin
2) Katon
3) Doton Wall
4) Summon Technique
5) Two Kage Bunshin

Kakashi in the war used:

1) Eight Raikiri variants (including streaming, Raiden, standard Raikiri)
2) Two Kage Bunshin
3) Doton Wall
4) Five Kamui

How again is that anywhere near equivalent? Kakashi's stamina showing is heads and shoulders above Hiruzens.

Kakashi underestimated Zabuza in the beginning, which led him to getting caught. What does this have anything to do with Kakashi's Genjutsu prowess, which was what ultimately ended the fight? Did Naruto's presence magically make Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu stronger? No.

So because Hashirama beat Madara, you reached the ridiculous conclusion that Hiruzen can? Does Hiruzen have Mokuton? Sage Mode? The ability to generate thousand foot tall structures that tower over the Kyuubi? No. Pure fan fiction that Hiruzen is "close to Hashirama's power," unless you will reference the clearly outdated Part I statement that has never been touched upon ever again despite numerous occasions where it would have been appropriate.

Kakashi has far more intellectual hype and tactical feats than Hiruzen has.

 

[Selan]

Kakashi locates Hiruzen and then tricks with Kage Bunshin/RKB + speedblitzes with Sharingan + Raikiri/Raiden.

Kakashi with 3 tomoe fought Hidan and Kakuzu protecting team 10 at the same time, cornered the two strongest body of Pain without knowledge, fought on par with Gated Gai keeping up with multiple V2 Bijuu, stomped 3 tomoe Obito. Old Hiruzen has no chances.

 

[Conspirator.]

Kakashi wins mid diff I think.

 

[Bronze]

Kakashi destroys him low diff.​

 

[shelke]

Kakashi slaughters this clown. You Hiruzen fans are out of control.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Kakashi has greater speed strength and taijutsu. Coupled with sharingan precog a raikiri blitz is partially guaranteed.

Kakashi neg diff.

 

[HornyPanda3]

Kakashi wins med-diff .

 

[madvictory]

Kakashi destroys him low diff.​

Pain to The World?

 

[MickNerks]

Hiruzen wins.

Hiruzen is hokage level, kakashi even with 3T is only high jonin. This underestimation of hiruzen has to stop.
Full intel means that hiruzen knows all of kakashi's techniques and can use all of them if they are konoha techniqes.

Hiruzen also has counters to all of his techniques. Taijutsu against kakashi is suicide, because hiruzen will lace him with explosive tags without kakashi being aware and blow his limbs off.

Also trying to fight hiruzen close range while he is accompanied by enma is reckless and suicidal. Kakashi would have to rely on long range techniques. Which wouldn't work on a shinobi like hiruzen who own the long range department