None of this really matters in a thread where we are discussing facts, not hypotheticals. This is the same exact thing as "Kakashi's 1000 jutsu" or "Prime Hiruzen." Would be fine to talk about it in Naruto Discussion forum, but in a VS Colosseum, where we are debating objectively, none of this matters.
The fact that you are not looking at it in a VS scenario means it is irrelevant to this entire sub-forum. The problem with hypotheticals is that there is no middle ground for people to intersect and compare arguments. You can literally say whatever you want to say, with no bound whatsoever.
If it were to happen in a VS thread, Tsunade would get murked every single time. She is inferior to Jiraiya in everything except physical strength and regeneration, which does not matter in the face of pseudo-lava techniques and Yomi Numa.
No. Jiraiya as a "alot more" everything than her, there is no illusion except the one you are casting upon yourself.
Jiraiya is faster than her. Jiraya is more versatile than her, with access to Katons, Yomi Numa, hair techniques, Rasengans, Goemon, and more. He has an unescapable Genjutsu in his arsenal. All Tsunade has on him is physical strength, and as I have said, it is superfluous, as Sage Mode Jiraiya's punch will kill the average fighter just as well as Tsunade's punch. Regeneration is the only tangible advantage Tsunade has over Jiraiya, and it has its limits, as seen when Madara relied on Zetsu's arm when he lost his.
Katsuyu's attacks were easily dodged by Manda whilst simultaneously dealing with Gamabunta. He then squeezed her to the point she was forced to divide and from there she accomplished absolutely nothing except stand there and observe the fight. Katsuyu has never been shown to be a combat summon, and only in certain forums will you find people extending her ridiculous battle feats she has never shown in the manga, essentially turning her into a walking no-limits fallacy, much like the Yata Mirror.
I never said there was anything factual about the first statement that is my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we assesed power level between two ninja based on how they do against each other in a fight i'm sorry for alot more passive ninja that have alot of skill. No I can't I am bounded by what them as a ninja has to offer.
Getting murked.. i never said she won do you know what giving a run for money means. That she can hold a candle to SM jiraya. And if we are talking about facts. Don't talk about VS section. VS section is filled with speculation of scenario played out to one persons liking. Only thing that are facts in those things are feats. Nothing in VS section reflects accurately what could happen in a cannon fight its not facts
Which does not matter in the face of that? Where's your proof? Afterall, facts.
Through what exactly doth he have this access? His kuchiyose as I said his summon has more versatility to help him with thus he seems to be stronger when he himself is not.
Yes, he is all those things but regeneration is her thing and the only how she is being taken out by him is by being worn out of chakra. Unless you are going to assume jiraya will remove her limbs ofc you have yours facts for him doing that too right?
Katsuya vs manda would never end in manda's because she can not die from anything he has. Tsunade told her to use great division, but i'd like to see you tell me the moment he tried to eat her she could not have spit acid right into his mouth.
Katsuya was initially introduced as a combat summon before later in shippuden we learn of her medical capabilities with Tsunade. Just saying.
Showing to be able to split into many pieces/liquify and shoot acid and transfer chakra and communicate with the user mentally can make several different combat strategies. I don't think we are the ones underrating her possible uses.
Except the speculation in a VS thread is bound by facts and feats. There is a massive difference between a hypothetical scenario using objective feats already available to us (i.e. all posters) and a hypothetical scenario using hypothetical feats that will vary from user to user (i.e. you can make up whatever you want, and so can I).
Can I assume Jiraiya has more Dotons and Katons he hasn't shown us? Can I assume Kakashi has a super awesome Raiton he hasn't shown us as well, or perhaps some Futons and Katon variants? He was rumored to have 1000 jutsu afterall, so why not. There is literally no limit to what a user can say when left to the bounds of their imagination, and to go down this route makes it impossible to have a debate.
Yeah, regeneration has its limits. Madara, with Hashirama's regeneration further powered by Hashirama cells and Hashirama Sage Mode were unable to pop out limbs. Sakura expressed fear over the lava that spawned below her, and had to be saved by Kakashi rather than rely on Byakugo. Regeneration, time and time again, has been shown to have it's limits, and Senpo Goemon, which is essentially a massive tidal wave of lava-like material, is a serious candidate to test those limits. Yomi Numa bypasses regeneration altogether as it doesn't damage but sinks the target.
If a Rinnegan user was unable to escape the Genjutsu, I have every reason to believe it is inescapable, at least within the realm of everything not Hagoromo / Juubi Madara / current Naruto / Sasuke related, which Tsunade obviously falls under, an individual with absolutely no Genjutsu feats or hype whatsoever.
It doesn't matter what combat strategies you can come up with pertaining to Katsuyu. Her only combat showing was lackluster and was completely outclassed, and Tsunade did not summon her in the battle of her life against Madara, further highlighting her inadequacy in combat. When it came to medical related issues, she was always immediately summoned.
Except the speculation in a VS thread is bound by facts and feats. There is a massive difference between a hypothetical scenario using objective feats already available to us (i.e. all posters) and a hypothetical scenario using hypothetical feats that will vary from user to user (i.e. you can make up whatever you want, and so can I).
Can I assume Jiraiya has more Dotons and Katons he hasn't shown us? Can I assume Kakashi has a super awesome Raiton he hasn't shown us as well, or perhaps some Futons and Katon variants? He was rumored to have 1000 jutsu afterall, so why not. There is literally no limit to what a user can say when left to the bounds of their imagination, and to go down this route makes it impossible to have a debate.
Yeah, regeneration has its limits. Madara, with Hashirama's regeneration further powered by Hashirama cells and Hashirama Sage Mode were unable to pop out limbs. Sakura expressed fear over the lava that spawned below her, and had to be saved by Kakashi rather than rely on Byakugo. Regeneration, time and time again, has been shown to have it's limits, and Senpo Goemon, which is essentially a massive tidal wave of lava-like material, is a serious candidate to test those limits. Yomi Numa bypasses regeneration altogether as it doesn't damage but sinks the target.
If a Rinnegan user was unable to escape the Genjutsu, I have every reason to believe it is inescapable, at least within the realm of everything not Hagoromo / Juubi Madara / current Naruto / Sasuke related, which Tsunade obviously falls under, an individual with absolutely no Genjutsu feats or hype whatsoever.
It doesn't matter what combat strategies you can come up with pertaining to Katsuyu. Her only combat showing was lackluster and was completely outclassed, and Tsunade did not summon her in the battle of her life against Madara, further highlighting her inadequacy in combat. When it came to medical related issues, she was always immediately summoned.
They still are not cannon. Exactly it's all made up other than the feats (which obv are facts cuz they are from the manga.)
I could say that Tsunade spreads one of her odorless poison mists in the area and cripple jiraya when he inhales it during the fight and kill him but it does not mean it would happen that way in cannon just because it's manga fact noone can detect her poisons.
It's a totally different thing you are trying to go with this and is just proving what i say about VS section plus that stuff is all very vauge and yes kakashi having known 1000 jutsu could affect a cannon fight if kishi actually utilised these things we do not know about. I hope you get my point.
That's why i asked you if you have facts jiraya cutting off limbs though. Tsunade's regeneration handled burns already. Unlike a giant pool of lava without a way out Jiraya has a technique on a smaller scale unless you want to say otherwise.
Sakura showed fear since she went in to punch Madara. She would definitely heal the burns but she is in lava as a constant eventually she will burn up all the chakra because of the constant need for her body to recover that.
Being in a lake of lava can't jump out anywhere etc is obvously going to run down the jutsu somewhat quickly.
Again area comes into play. Jiraya's technique if Tsunade has the ability to escape it (which she should in any area that is even if she got hit and she got out she would be safe if she was boxed in it and couldnt get out she would consume all her chakra eventually.
Plus jiraya had to follow up with a rasengan to get the path into the bath of it.
Also Madara initially stuck an arm back together but after fighting 8th gate gai he regrew the entire arm but people say that that is the sage ability so i will leave it because jiraya wouldn't be cutting limbs anyways that is assumption.
Everyone has the ability to be caught in sound genjutsu. With such chakra compressed into a seal running into her body I could only think jiraya's teachings to Naruto about genjutsu would apply but that is an assumption to sound genjutsu.
That does not change that if the fight continued Manda would have lost does it. There is absolutely nothing it could do. Also those several straregies could pull Tsunade wins on a few characters i can think of, especially the ability of katsuya to liquify.
Tsunade does not summon kuchiyose ever until other kuchiyose or large opponent are on field.
Same for Jiraya and Orochimaru. Jiraya is just lucky to have smaller summons, they never call in the big guys until necessary.
You must be registered for see images
^ See here she only attempted to bring katsuya onto the field when PS made an appearance.
Notice that is another thing about vs section it often causes illusion that the sannin or anyone else with big summons would just summon them to fight someone who is not using one or something they need size to back them up.
I've never seen it happen in the manga before unless i forgot. Not that it cannot happen but like I said VS section creates scenarios for it's own and favorable conditions if necessary.
thats why i said she had all the time to reveal her awesome jutsus, she did exactly that but you are secretly hoping that she is still hiding some awesome jutsus somewhere
she is still the same old brawling punch and kick fighter
She didn't get enough fights. She's a hokage so obv she won't have a lot but noone will ever know the depth of any sannin skill set.
we know she can punch, kick and heal and her potential ends there
there is no scope for more uber super techniques that can pwn everyone
Also jiraya would have a hard time beating Tsunade before he resorts to kuchiyose to get his SM. That guy relies so much on his summons. Also refer to below
Wrong again. It's the pinnacle of her medical ninjutsu abilities.
You are right, there was no reason. What are the rules of medical ninja? Was she not on a team? If you know anything about that then you will know why she used byakugou no jutsu.
She can have other techniques still besides the techniques she has not shown do not have to be S-ranked like her big dogs. FYI look at body pathway dearrangement we havent seen that more than once she must have more jutsu.
Or you don't have one. I'm going with that. But as you said no explanation needed.
It doesn't matter if VS threads aren't canon. What matters are the feats being discussed, which are canon. We are using known feats to discuss hypothetical threads, not hypothetical feats to discuss hypothetical threads.
Tsunade cannot use poison mists herself (i.e. a jutsu), and would typically rely on a smoke bomb like Sakura did. Evidence that she carries them regularly, considering she herself has never used them before? She is still limited by the amount she can carry on her person, so this idea you have of Mei / Zabuza level mist is once again unsubstantiated assumption.
Tsunade's regeneration handled burns from miniature Katons used by a dissipating Madara. She did not handle a combo of Katon, Futon, and oil, which essentially acts as pseudo-lava. Jiraiya can use it more than once as well; it is by no means a one use only technique.
I hope you aren't seriously comparing Sage Mode Madara amped on Juubi Jinchuuriki chakra to Tsunade's Byakugo - essentially the closest thing in the manga to a deity. Again, without the 10 tails, Madara, who had Hashirama's regeneration, which he likened to Byakugo, and further amped on Sage Mode, relied on Zetsu's arm rather than regrow his own. Tsunade's Byakugo has only closed wounds, never outright regrow limbs from thin air.
Where do you get this idea Manda would lose? After forcing her to divide, if Gamabunta wasn't there, he could have swallowed her in her divided / miniature states. He could have bitten her as well. Manda's superiority was outlined in that battle; he was fighting both Gamabunta and Katsuyu, maintaining dominance and forcing both on the defensive, and only lost once two third parties (Jiraiya with his combo Katon and Tsunade with Gamabunta's sword) interfered.
Perfect Susano'o was already on the field for a good amount of time before that scan, and you have absolutely no evidence that Tsunade was aiming to summon Katsuyu. It could have been preparing another healing technique, for all I'm concerned. She made hand seals, and from that ambiguous scan, you reached the rather specific conclusion that she was bringing out Katsuyu?
Her regeneration is pointless. Once she is stabbed by the Chakra rods, Nagato will paralyze her with the Rinnegan's Chakra. After Tendo used Bansho Tenin on her, 5 other Pain's will have an easy game in stabbing her simultaneously. Then, Pain decides how to kill her. Tsunade has no chance.
thats why i said she had all the time to reveal her awesome jutsus, she did exactly that but you are secretly hoping that she is still hiding some awesome jutsus somewhere
she is still the same old brawling punch and kick fighter
we know she can punch, kick and heal and her potential ends there
there is no scope for more uber super techniques that can pwn everyone
lawl no
yomi numa drowns her
ranji shigami tears her from limb to limb
drenches her in oil and lights her on fire
Actually there is nothing to hope to see from her now, she is in IT and is done for the rest of series. Noone in here can tell me they know for a fact Tsunade does not have more techniques just like edo hiruzen came to show more feats than he did before in his fight but whatever.
Again you are being ridiculous as to think I think she has numerous higher level techniques left. I just said more techniques and different techniques can be useful for different situations and can help win a fight there isn't anything that said has to be high rank.
It's true in my last statement. He needs kuchiyose more than any other sannin to be good.
Yomi numa is a tech he needs his kuchiyose for, same for sm,
Ranji shigami I know Tsunade can dodge that. Also drenching her in oil and lighting her on fire has no proof of killing her.
It doesn't matter if VS threads aren't canon. What matters are the feats being discussed, which are canon. We are using known feats to discuss hypothetical threads, not hypothetical feats to discuss hypothetical threads.
Tsunade cannot use poison mists herself (i.e. a jutsu), and would typically rely on a smoke bomb like Sakura did. Evidence that she carries them regularly, considering she herself has never used them before? She is still limited by the amount she can carry on her person, so this idea you have of Mei / Zabuza level mist is once again unsubstantiated assumption.
Tsunade's regeneration handled burns from miniature Katons used by a dissipating Madara. She did not handle a combo of Katon, Futon, and oil, which essentially acts as pseudo-lava. Jiraiya can use it more than once as well; it is by no means a one use only technique.
I hope you aren't seriously comparing Sage Mode Madara amped on Juubi Jinchuuriki chakra to Tsunade's Byakugo - essentially the closest thing in the manga to a deity. Again, without the 10 tails, Madara, who had Hashirama's regeneration, which he likened to Byakugo, and further amped on Sage Mode, relied on Zetsu's arm rather than regrow his own. Tsunade's Byakugo has only closed wounds, never outright regrow limbs from thin air.
Where do you get this idea Manda would lose? After forcing her to divide, if Gamabunta wasn't there, he could have swallowed her in her divided / miniature states. He could have bitten her as well. Manda's superiority was outlined in that battle; he was fighting both Gamabunta and Katsuyu, maintaining dominance and forcing both on the defensive, and only lost once two third parties (Jiraiya with his combo Katon and Tsunade with Gamabunta's sword) interfered.
Perfect Susano'o was already on the field for a good amount of time before that scan, and you have absolutely no evidence that Tsunade was aiming to summon Katsuyu. It could have been preparing another healing technique, for all I'm concerned. She made hand seals, and from that ambiguous scan, you reached the rather specific conclusion that she was bringing out Katsuyu?
Considering Jiraya said she could make tasteles and odorless poisons i am going to assume she can release them into the atmosphere I just used the word mist to get the point accross i was not talking about the jutsu. So yes i stick by my scenario and say she beats him with poison. But I can't do that right?
Jiraya is proof enough she can produce and use odorless poisons to fight i don't need to see her do it, it's not like he said 'she is a master of poison' and did not give us anything to work with. He explicitly stated what her poison can do. She already used a tasteless one on him before by the way.
Yes, but again you are putting limits to regeneration you only have a totally different character, which you are assuming AGAIN is better than her regeneration. So i will dismiss all the assumptions about her regeneration when there are no feats to prove otherwise from the character herself.
Ever thought that regrowing an arm for basic SM madara would be too chakra taxing? The difference with SM madara and Tsunade is that Tsunade has 2 chakra pools and the 2nd one has years worth of chakra easily(once she is at full power) which is why i theorized she should should be able to regrow a limb because instant regeneration does not have different categories it is what it is except chakra pool has a part to play.
You must be registered for see links
-------------------------
Tell me how she would lose. Tell me how a snake that squeezes and bites can beat her. Everything manda did would be futile, also small katsuya can spit acid too JS.
Slugs have also been slower than snakes yet still we know in the manga that related to summons the slugs will always beat the snake and the snake will always beat the frog and frog always beat the slug. That is a manga fact as well i also have to dismiss?
---------------------------
Uhm you are lying now, PS was barely on the field for long. And when it first showed up everyone was more in shock of it and then once they came back to reality it tried to attack them and she attemped to summon kuchiyose. Don't estimate how long PS was on the field by chapter because kishi was showing real time what was happening between them and then what was happening with itachi.
Well let me guess, big ass PS that just ripped a mountain apart. Healing would do what exactly. They kages did not need to be healed then they needed chakra.
Another hint is that she did not approach any other kage to heal them she formed a handseal staring at madara raised sword of perfect susano. It was obviously going to be a technique to attempt to counter the attack.
I'd like to see you convince me Tsunade was going to try to heal the kages while a sword was coming down on them right infront of them. And you can't convince me she was going to heal herself either byakugou was active.
And if you say it might not have been kuchiyose still then you are telling me Tsunade has more techniques in her arsenal =D and well thats a bit out of the box against PS so it must have been kuchiyose
You have to read situations if you want to get something out of the scans.
Another hint is that she did not approach any other kage to heal them she formed a handseal staring at madara raised sword of perfect susano. It was obviously going to be a technique to attempt to counter the attack.
What's the point of this? Madara slaughtered them later even without the PS. They would've been dead if not Itachi. It doesn't really matter what she attempted, Madara would have killed them. She went all out against Madara, so just stfu. Either you debate in this thread with Jutsu Tsunade showed or you go away. Simple as that. Kakashi is said to possess 1000 Jutsu which he copied but still relies on his main arsenal, which has the most powerful Jutsu. It does not matter. So don't annoy us.
What's the point of this? Madara slaughtered them later even without the PS. They would've been dead if not Itachi. It doesn't really matter what she attempted, Madara would have killed them. She went all out against Madara, so just stfu. Either you debate in this thread with Jutsu Tsunade showed or you go away. Simple as that. Kakashi is said to possess 1000 Jutsu which he copied but still relies on his main arsenal, which has the most powerful Jutsu. It does not matter. So don't annoy us.
Err it's not about about the fight at all, death was sure. Considering you only cut that quote i say you didnt read the rest after to know what i was talking about that for.
The whole point of it is to show what i said before, thati n the manga people only mostly summon large summons when they need to compete with another summon. Or in this case PS
She failed to do any Jutsu; there wasn't any Jutsu used by Tsunade when the PS was already on the point of hitting them, before it was deactivated due to Edo Tensei's release. So the only fact is, that they would have had failed. Itachi saved them. What has that got to do with this fight anyway? Tsunade has no chance.
She failed to do any Jutsu; there wasn't any Jutsu used by Tsunade when the PS was already on the point of hitting them, before it was deactivated due to Edo Tensei's release. So the only fact is, that they would have had failed. Itachi saved them. What has that got to do with this fight anyway? Tsunade has no chance.
You are not even comprehending what im talking about, i guess if i wasn't clear enough as to where the PS thing came in i can't be clearer. Because you are still talking about the madara fight itself which is irrelevant in all but one scan to show something. This changed from tsunade vs pain to jiraya anyways (and not to madara by you) so i guess it's pointless now.
dunno why this has gotten to 4 pages. i think i saw somewhere that pain wins due to ct wtf? why would he resort to ct for someone like tsunade? bansho tenin plus chakra rods and tsunade dies. no contest whtsoever. i actually believe animal path takes this alone but ill leave it at that.
You are not even comprehending what im talking about, i guess if i wasn't clear enough as to where the PS thing came in i can't be clearer. Because you are still talking about the madara fight itself which is irrelevant in all but one scan to show something. This changed from tsunade vs pain to jiraya anyways (and not to madara by you) so i guess it's pointless now.
Ive been reading this little discussion and your actually suggesting that Tsunade in Jiraiyas boots would have taken out the same amount of pains? if not more? What BW said is true, the attributes and abilities of both Bunta and Katsuya are completely different and work in different ways. Jiraya was being persued when entering SM on Gama by cerebrus. Unfortunately Tsuande hasnt Got SM nor does she have a versatile summon. Katsuya is more passive and defensive and that definitely isn't helping Tsunde in this battle. If you think about this logically, she has no counter of chameleon OR cerebrus, taking animal path out is out of the question because he can fly on the bird while this is going on.
Can you really justify how she possibly evades or counters this barrage of assaults?
