You do realize that chakra is not the ONLY way to get things done right? Humans have always had spiritual and physical energy long before they had chakra. Ever heard of yin release and yang release? You don't need chakra to do that, in fact you need the two of those in order mold chakra for ninjutsu in the first place. Yin release also governs a lot of genjutsu, so yes it is possible that she already had the sharingan and was able to use Tsukuyomi via her spiritual energy before ever having chakra. She just could not do so on the scale that she needed, which is why she possibly went after the chakra of the tree
Chakra never exsisted in any human being in the naruto manga. it belonged only to the 10 tails and the sage mother stole that from it. even if one can try to use yin or yang they still cant use chakra or make chakra for it belongs to the 10 tails and the only way they are able to perform it is thanks the sage mom stealing it thus leading up to what the sage of 6 paths calls Ninshu or whatever.
Chakra never exsisted in any human being in the naruto manga. it belonged only to the 10 tails and the sage mother stole that from it. even if one can try to use yin or yang they still cant use chakra or make chakra for it belongs to the 10 tails and the only way they are able to perform it is thanks the sage mom stealing it thus leading up to what the sage of 6 paths calls Ninshu or whatever.
My comment was not about chakra. If you stopped trying so hard to make yourself seem intelligent you would realize that. Yin release and Yang release are not based on chakra. They are based on your own physical and spiritual energy, otherwise known as shadow and light style. They are the tools needed in order for chakra to me molded for ninjutsu. Not created, but molded. Yin-Yang release is what makes non-elemental jutsu possible, which includes genjutsu.
For someone who talks so much shit about others being ignorant about chakra, you know very little about it
My comment was not about chakra. If you stopped trying so hard to make yourself seem intelligent you would realize that. Yin release and Yang release are not based on chakra. They are based on your own physical and spiritual energy, otherwise known as shadow and light style. They are the tools needed in order for chakra to me molded for ninjutsu. Not created, but molded. Yin-Yang release is what makes non-elemental jutsu possible, which includes genjutsu.
For someone who talks so much shit about others being ignorant about chakra, you know very little about it
I believe she was able to perform some techniques using yin and yang release as opposed to chakra. You can even see that, despite her not having knowledge of chakra and ninshuu being created by Hagoromo, she used handseals, meaning she had knowledge of some techniques prior to her properly understanding chakra
Wrong. Yin and Yang is the source of non elemental techniques. Those techniques can be enhanced via chakra, but it is not needed to necessarily to perform them.
An example would be Shikamaru's shadow techniques. Hidan notes that Shikamaru is at his chakra limit
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Yet he can still use it here:
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Which effectively proves my point that yin and yang techniques aren't relied on chakra for use. Their effectiveness decreases, but as long as you have the phyiscal or spiritual energy you can still use it.
Genjutsu is based on yin release, which I already went through and explained with another guy that yin and yang release, aka spiritual and physical energy is separate from chakra itself. So I won't go back through all of that again. In short, there are some techniques that be performed regardless of chakra. Chakra can increase the effectiveness of these techniques, but you don't need them chakra in order to perform every technique, particularly non-elemental techniques, which includes genjutsu
Genjutsu is based on yin release, which I already went through and explained with another guy that yin and yang release, aka spiritual and physical energy is separate from chakra itself. So I won't go back through all of that again. In short, there are some techniques that be performed regardless of chakra. Chakra can increase the effectiveness of these techniques, but you don't need them chakra in order to perform every technique, particularly non-elemental techniques, which includes genjutsu
Right, NINJUTSU you clown. NINJUTSU. That is because ninjutsu, which is ELEMENTAL, is based on chakra. NON-elemental techniques are based on yin and yang. They don't need chakra to be performed. Tsukuyomi isn't ninjutsu. It's genjutsu. And like I said, Kaguya needed the power the tree to INCREASE the power of her genjutsu, not to perform it.
I even gave you an example of this very fact that you can perfom non-elemental techniques to a great degree even without having chakra. Chakra INCREASES non-elemental attacks. That is all. It doesn't create them. That is what Yin-yang release is for
*Edit* I see you tried to change your response to include all forms of jutsu. At this point you are going against a very clear manga example I gave you as well as other hints given via explanations by Yamato, Kakashi, and Pa.
Right, NINJUTSU you clown. NINJUTSU. That is because ninjutsu, which is ELEMENTAL, is based on chakra. NON-elemental techniques are based on yin and yang. They don't need chakra to be performed. Tsukuyomi isn't ninjutsu. It's genjutsu. And like I said, Kaguya needed the power the tree to INCREASE the power of her genjutsu, not to perform it.
I even gave you an example of this very fact that you can perfom non-elemental techniques to a great degree even without having chakra. Chakra INCREASES non-elemental attacks. That is all. It doesn't create them. That is what Yin-yang release is for
*Edit* I see you tried to change your response to include all forms of jutsu. At this point you are going against a very clear manga example I gave you as well as other hints given via explanations by Yamato, Kakashi, and Pa. I'm done with you kid. Like I told everyone else, time will tell
medical ninjutsu needs chakra
hidden ninjutsu needs chakra such as the nara clan techniques
yin which is technically Genjutsu in the same catergory that creates things from nothing requires chakra as well
yang which is physical energy that governs vitality, can be used to breathe life into form
yin and yang combined you can preform creation of all things for example but you need chakra as well.
either way you need chakra you cant perform any jutsu without it.
medical ninjutsu needs chakra hidden ninjutsu needs chakra such as the nara clan techniques
yin which is technically Genjutsu in the same catergory that creates things from nothing requires chakra as well
yang which is physical energy that governs vitality, can be used to breathe life into form
yin and yang combined you can preform creation of all things for example but you need chakra as well.
either way you need chakra you cant perform any jutsu without it.
I'll prove you wrong with just the bold. If this is true, then why does Shikamaru HAVE to have a shadow present in order to use his techniques? If chakra is what he needs, he should be able create his own shadows just like you can create elemental jutsu out of thin air with chakra right? Yet he can not do this, no matter how much chakra he has. That is because his technique is not created with chakra, but he is able to manipulate shadows with yin release.
NON-ELEMENTAL JUTSU DOES NOT REQUIRE CHAKRA TO BE USED
I even showed you an example of him using his shadow technique while being out of chakra!
I'll prove you wrong with just the bold. If this is true, then why does Shikamaru HAVE to have a shadow present in order to use his techniques? If chakra is what he needs, he should be able create his own shadows just like you can create elemental jutsu out of thin air with chakra right? Yet he can not do this, no matter how much chakra he has. That is because his technique is not created with chakra, but he is able to manipulate shadows with yin release.
NON-ELEMENTAL JUTSU DOES NOT REQUIRE CHAKRA TO BE USED
I even showed you an example of him using his shadow technique while being out of chakra!
troy,That's all wrong. Shikamaru uses chakra to MANIPULATE the shadows. By your schoolboy logic, shikamaru would never run out of chakra in battle(or he would last a long time) but that isn't the case. It's the same way someone uses chakra to manipulate a water source or the earth. Genjutsu requires chakra too-under that logic, controlling kurama with the sharingan wouldn’t take any chakra at all-when that is also false.
No, it is not. As I have already disproven that in an earlier post where Shikamaru was able to manipulate his shadow technique despite being out of chakra. Non-Elemental techniques use yin and yang release to be PERFORMED. Chakra can enhance those techniques by substituting the strain of physical and/or spiritual energy for the consumption of chakra, but you do not have to have chakra to use them.
troy,That's all wrong. Shikamaru uses chakra to MANIPULATE the shadows. By your schoolboy logic, shikamaru would never run out of chakra in battle(or he would last a long time) but that isn't the case. It's the same way someone uses chakra to manipulate a water source or the earth. Genjutsu requires chakra too-under that logic, controlling kurama with the sharingan wouldn’t take any chakra at all-when that is also false.
No, that wouldn't mean that he would never run out of chakra. I already gave a clear example of him manipulating his shadow technique WHEN HE WAS OUT OF CHAKRA. Which proves that you don't NEED chakra to PERFORM his techniques. Chakra is used to enhance the moves by consuming your chakra source as opposed to draining up your spiritual and/or physical energy, which is basically your life source. Hidan explained this in his analysis. Shikamaru's technique is less effective the more he uses it because he is using up his spiritual energy every time he performs it. In addition to that, his chakra was also at it's limit. Yet he was able to still perform the technique, it just wasn't as strong as normal because he no longer had a chakra source to use up as opposed to what little spiritual energy he had left.
And the difference between a water source and a shadow is that water is ELEMENTAL. That is what ninjutsu is. It's all elemental, based on the 5 chakra natures. Non-elemental techniques do not revolve around the 5 chakra natures because they don't require chakra for use. There's a reason why Hagoromo was called the father of ninjutsu specifically and not ALL forms of jutsu. Chakra gave birth to elemental techniques, i.e ninjutsu. That is all. That is why you don't need a water source to use water style jutsu because you can create elements with chakra as long as you have the right chakra nature. There is no chakra nature combination that leads to shadow style. It is based on yin release. If you took the time to actually understand the elemental table you'd realize this
I'm not wasting time re-posting it. Go back and find one of my comments to prime rib and you will see the manga proof.
Yin and Yang is separate from chakra. Even Kakashi and Yamato pointed this out with Naruto's Rasenshuriken training.
That's not complete right. All Dōjutsu are Kekkai Genkai, a Kekkai Genkai doesn't refer only to a Jutsu/Dōjutsu/and so on, but also to a modification of genotype. All Hyūga have since their birth those "white eyes" even without the concept of chakra.
If we consider the whole context, it makes more sense, that Kaguya had probably the Byakugan before Jūbis Sharingan.
That's not complete right. All Dōjutsu are Kekkai Genkai, a Kekkai Genkai doesn't refer only to a Jutsu/Dōjutsu/and so on, but also to a modification of genotype. All Hyūga have since their birth those "white eyes" even without the concept of chakra.
If we consider the whole context, it makes more sense, that Kaguya had probably the Byakugan before Jūbis Sharingan.
THANK YOU!! This is for the most part what I was trying to get at. Not every KKG is chakra based, as not every KKG follows the chakra nature chart. Some are based on the spiritual and physical energy of yin and yang, which is separate from the chakra.
We may not agree on whether or not Kaguya had the sharingan first or the juubi, but at least someone other than myself can see the difference in yin/yang and chakra
No, it is not. As I have already disproven that in an earlier post where Shikamaru was able to manipulate his shadow technique despite being out of chakra. Non-Elemental techniques use yin and yang release to be PERFORMED. Chakra can enhance those techniques by substituting the strain of physical and/or spiritual energy for the consumption of chakra, but you do not have to have chakra to use them.
Hidan's words don't hold merit to shikamaru's status. Especially since shikamaru was only luring him there with intent to trick him. He even played dead for a bit so you can't really cling to that.
Anyways all ninjutsu requires chakra that's just fact. But that doesn't mean the chakra is transformed into the jutsu.
Examples would be ino's mind tech's, shadow shadow tech's, summoning jutsu, ftg, kamui, etc.
Dojutsu is a different story since its not ninjutsu. But what you said about shadow possession/shadow stitching is incorrect
Hidan's words don't hold merit to shikamaru's status. Especially since shikamaru was only luring him there with intent to trick him. He even played dead for a bit so you can't really cling to that.
Anyways all ninjutsu requires chakra that's just fact. But that doesn't mean the chakra is transformed into the jutsu.
Examples would be ino's mind tech's, shadow shadow tech's, summoning jutsu, ftg, kamui, etc.
Dojutsu is a different story since its not ninjutsu. But what you said about shadow possession/shadow stitching is incorrect
Dude, stop. Shikamaru's chakra was at his limit. Point blank. It's also the same concept behind Lee being able to use the 8 gates technique despite not being able to mold chakra. You don't need chakra to PERFORM every technique.The difference is that without chakra, those techniques that can be performed without it will be significantly weaker. But since you REALLY don't want to take Hidan's word, here:
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Even back in part 1, Shikamaru states that he had already used up all of his chakra, yet he could still hold Temari for 10 more seconds, again proving my point. It is not the chakra that allows him to PERFORM his technique because it is non-elemental, so it is not based on chakra. Chakra simply increases the effectiveness of his technique. He even points out that despite being low on chakra, he had other moves planned and could still fight, further implying he could still use weaker, less effective versions of his shadow techniques to get the job done. Straight from his mouth, so what is your excuse now?
Aside from this, no, not every single form of ninjutsu requires chakra, because chakra only accounts for the elemental jutsus. That is why there is a chakra table for the elements, but none for non-elemental attacks. Even the wiki notes that chakra isn't always needed to perform every ninjutsu. Before chakra, spiritual and physical energy was still used to perform more simpler jutsu. Chakra has the ability to enhance those techniques, but they aren't required to perform them.
The problem that you and the others are having is that you don't understand the difference in yin and yang vs chakra. Even Yamato and Kakashi noted there was a difference when training Naruto. This is the basis behind my theory with kaguya. She needed chakra to increase the techniques she could do with her yin and yang release. And since we know she was the first tsukuyomi user, it could stand to reason that she took the chakra in order to enhance her jutsu enough to where she could control the masses, something she would not have been able to do as without chakra she could still use yin release to perform a genjutsu, it just would've been too weak to do at the level she needed.
For christ sake dude, if it wasn't possible to perform techinques before the Sage introduced chakra and taught ninjutsu to the world, then why in the hell is Kaguya using a DAMN HAND SEAL?
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Her son hadn't even taught people how to mold chakra yet, which is what hand seals are for, so why else would she know about hand seals if not for the fact that she could perform techniques with yin and yang release, the very thing that is used to mold chakra in the first place?
