I'm not sold on Minato being 'bad' at senjutsu

[Gold Lightning]

lol you didn't base this on any manga facts AT ALL xD

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Utilizing natural energy means you need to have enormous chakra, Minato is a perfect sage meaning he balances natural energy very well, even better than Jiraya. You can't become a sage if your chakra is small.

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Naruto practicing to extend his sage mode time frame from his 5 minute limit

Can't wait to see what BS you come up with to deny this.

 

[Mr Hiru]

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Utilizing natural energy means you need to have enormous chakra, Minato is a perfect sage meaning he balances natural energy very well, even better than Jiraya. You can't become a sage if your chakra is small.

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Naruto practicing to extend his sage mode time frame from his 5 minute limit

Can't wait to see what BS you come up with to deny this.

This is the reason of why I already told that Minato had to go though a lot of troubles in order to learn how to enter Sage Mode. You can replace chakra reserves by chakra control. If you can correctly use chakra control, you can lose less chakra when using it for other means, and this is also manga fact, look at chapter 90.

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Anyways, even if Minato had a lot of chakra reserves, he still sucked at Senjutsu usage... way to slow kneading Nature energy to create senjutsu chakra

 

[SasukexNeji]

This many replies?! Really?!? Look, the dude (Minato) said it himself... HE WOULD KNOW! Silly Minato fans grasping for straws...

/end thread

 

[Mr Hiru]

This many replies?! Really?!? Look, the dude (Minato) said it himself... HE WOULD KNOW! Silly Minato fans grasping for straws...

/end thread

Lol, I guess this is the simplest way to put things on the table...

 

[Gold Lightning]

This is the reason of why I already told that Minato had to go though a lot of troubles in order to learn how to enter Sage Mode. You can replace chakra reserves by chakra control. If you can correctly use chakra control, you can lose less chakra when using it for other means, and this is also manga fact, look at chapter 90.

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Anyways, even if Minato had a lot of chakra reserves, he still sucked at Senjutsu usage... way to slow kneading Nature energy to create senjutsu chakra

Nope, those scans have nothing to do with senjutsu, Senjutsu is a completely different thing. The scans only talk about coming spiritual and body energy. There's nothing in those scans that says anything about natural energy.

Fukasaku already said it anyway, so I don't know why you are trying to convice me otherwise with outdated scans that have nothing to do with natural energy. Natural energy is on a completely different level hence why he says "That's how incredible Nature Energy is".

By your logic, Sakura could have learned sage mode because her chakra control is amazing U_U. Ororchimaru couldn't even learn sage mode despite all of his genius because he didn't have the body & chakra for it. So no, your post is invalid.

Minato became a perfect Sage because his chakra levels are massive, in addition to having great chakra control. Jiraya is an imperfect sage, meaning he has high chakra levels but his control in balancing the nature energy ratio is poor. He doesn't "suck" at the usage, he's just not as good as he could be, however his sage mode is still highly useful in battle. And chapter 665 showed he can gather and sage mode quickly in short bursts.

 

[valandil988]

(Taken from text)

---

These points seem very well thought out, quite convincing and corroborative but we have pragmatical people on NB, tho. (Myself too) but nevertheless, laudable effort.

I'm sorry I can't help but ask. I questioned myself on why I was bothering....Meh I don't need a reason. p maybe its because you said you major in English )

"Pragmatical" doesn't quite lend to its use to describe people, it describes a philosophy/theory or perhaps a principle, not that they are "practical" people. Wouldn't "pragmatic" be a correct usage?


I donno why I bothered I couldn't help it

Regarding the thread I can only say. 100% true, I have NO idea why Kishi bothered to add this power to Minato's repertoire so late on in his character development. It literally served no purpose but to make him look bad, did he just give him sage mode to make a statement that Sage mode Naruto wouldn't stand a damn chance (Like we didn't know that already) against rikudo Madara?

I'm sorry but I have to state that is TERRIBLE story telling. I mean I've seen bad fanfiction that isn't that cruel LOL.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Nope, those scans have nothing to do with senjutsu, Senjutsu is a completely different thing. The scans only talk about coming spiritual and body energy. There's nothing in those scans that says anything about natural energy.

Fukasaku already said it anyway, so I don't know why you are trying to convice me otherwise with outdated scans that have nothing to do with natural energy. Natural energy is on a completely different level hence why he says "That's how incredible Nature Energy is".

By your logic, Sakura could have learned sage mode because her chakra control is amazing U_U. Ororchimaru couldn't even learn sage mode despite all of his genius because he didn't have the body & chakra for it. So no, your post is invalid.

Minato became a perfect Sage because his chakra levels are massive, in addition to having great chakra control. Jiraya is an imperfect sage, meaning he has high chakra levels but his control in balancing the nature energy ratio is poor. He doesn't "suck" at the usage, he's just not as good as he could be, however his sage mode is still highly useful in battle. And chapter 665 showed he can gather and sage mode quickly in short bursts.

This is the reason of why I already told that Minato had to go though a lot of troubles in order to learn how to enter Sage Mode. You can replace chakra reserves by chakra control. If you can correctly use chakra control, you can lose less chakra when using it for other means, and this is also manga fact, look at chapter 90.

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Anyways, even if Minato had a lot of chakra reserves, he still sucked at Senjutsu usage... way to slow kneading Nature energy to create senjutsu chakra

That's why I had an alternative strategy for counter-rebuttal. I also could accept the possibility of him having massive chakra reserves.

so my post is not as invalid as you say...

 

[Gold Lightning]

That's why I had an alternative strategy for counter-rebuttal. I also could accept the possibility of him having massive chakra reserves.

so my post is not as invalid as you say...

Well the part about him not having massive chakra would be, but if you can agree on that then never mind.

Just so you know, I'm well aware Minato's sage mode isn't that good, but that doesn't equal bad or "sucky". Jiraya's sage mode is bad too, but no one gives a damn because for some reason Minato gets the most attention here on NB. Minato's sage mode is decent at best, meaning he can most likely maintain it for a couple minutes tops. He entered sage mode pretty quickly and I and a few others have a theory as to how he did it so fast despite saying he's slow at doing it.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Well the part about him not having massive chakra would be, but if you can agree on that then never mind.

Just so you know, I'm well aware Minato's sage mode isn't that good, but that doesn't equal bad or "sucky". Jiraya's sage mode is bad too, but no one gives a damn because for some reason Minato gets the most attention here on NB. Minato's sage mode is decent at best, meaning he can most likely maintain it for a couple minutes tops. He entered sage mode pretty quickly and I and a few others have a theory as to how he did it so fast despite saying he's slow at doing it.

Ah! You got it right!

It seems Minato has been interpreted as one of the gods of shinobi by Naruto's fans, because he is the hero that saved Konoha in the prologue. He was treated as a legend, in other words... "he is too hyped under the eyes of the manga fans".

Under the knowledge about this behaviour, I feel that it was obvious some people would jump to discredit Kishimoto's attempt to humanize him.

Of course, I still respect the opinion of those who brings solid points into discussion, as for example, OP.

 

[Floydical]

Because he isn't really bad at sage mode, he's a "Perfect" sage after all. Compared to Naruto though, his sage mode is inferior due to lack of practice. Feels more like Minato being modest to be honest, as if he feels his level of senjutsu isn't good enough. It's like if I scored a 99% on a test, I'd be pissed because I'd feel like I should have gotten full marks.

The speed at which he threw the kunai, entered sage mode, teleported to Madara, and already formed a Rasengan was so fast that it's impossible for me to believe that his senjutsu sucks.

Exactly my conclusion, and the point of this thread.

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Utilizing natural energy means you need to have enormous chakra, Minato is a perfect sage meaning he balances natural energy very well, even better than Jiraya. You can't become a sage if your chakra is small.

You must be registered for see images

Naruto practicing to extend his sage mode time frame from his 5 minute limit

Can't wait to see what BS you come up with to deny this.

Wow that's a great point. A large portion of arguments regarding how Minato can achieve Perfect SM while still being bad at it is because he doesn't have much chakra to start with so the amount of nature energy he is required to gather is small. While this is not the only argument being used, this is a great point to counter the people that claim he has small chakra reserves.

This many replies?! Really?!? Look, the dude (Minato) said it himself... HE WOULD KNOW! Silly Minato fans grasping for straws...

/end thread

Wow another person trying to claim I'm a Minato fan. I think the evidence I compiled and discussion that I bothered taking part in proves I posted this because I found inconsistency in Kishi's work, not that I'm doing this simply as a fan of Minato -_-.

 

[cptenn94]

Awesome. I look forward to seeing more replies from hirudora and floydical.

2 people who engage in good debate.

Its not fun makeing a theory only to get replies such as (useing thise threads topic)

"It doesnt matter Minatos fodder"
"Lord sasuke soloes anyways"
"Prime hiruzen soloes universe"

etc.(some are more detailed, and somewhat are debates. But they are usually just people who say what they think, and dont concede any points, where it is due)


So basically its nice to see people debateing, and engageing in diologue.

I think we can agree and come to the conclusion of this.

Minato is most probably "bad" at sage mode, because of his inexperiance.(by bad, we can refer to entering sage mode quickly(this is not where he is most lacking), and absorbing/maintaining enough sage energy, to remain in sage mode)

We can conclude that he has great chakra control(due to his ability to balance the energies, and enter perfect sage mode(which is just when the energies are balanced)

We can also come to the conclusion that if he was still alive, his sage mode would almost certainly be much stronger(as in he never died period) because he could train better. And due to him seeming to have inexperiance in sage mode, it is also nearly certain he doesnt know frog fu.(if i recall part of frog fu, is learning to use sage mode for dodgeing, as well as the invisible punch thing)


I think we can also agree that this wasnt some plot hole or asspull(like many shallow minded people immediately conclude)

Anyways, regardless of whether I got the above right(on what we can agree with), it has been great reading the diologue and debate going on. Have a great night guys!

 

[Gold Lightning]

I just now noticed the motion lines drawn in Sage Minatos panel, plus look at the SHH SHH effects in that same panel, that represents the sage markings appearing on Minatos eyes. So that means Minato was moving while gathering his senjutsu . Plus he threw his kunai before he was in sage mode, which means the time it took Gaara to build his sand wall is how long it took Minato to gather sage mode. And from what I gather, not very long at all.

 

[lion fang master]

Why NOT minato was known for his chakra manipulation, not abundance of chakra

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So the little he claims he could do is probably because he's a genius

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Why NOT minato was known for his chakra manipulation, not abundance of chakra

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So the little he claims he could do is probably because he's a genius

He had to have sufficient chakra stores to erect a Kage level barrier to suppress the Juubi. Granted he had Kurama's chakra but the tech was known to him. There is little point in debating his strength. He was a Kage. A title reserved for the strongest.

 

[lion fang master]

He had to have sufficient chakra stores to erect a Kage level barrier to suppress the Juubi. Granted he had Kurama's chakra but the tech was known to him. There is little point in debating his strength. He was a Kage. A title reserved for the strongest.

No you don't have to give information about every ninja b4 U know certain things about them 1. He stated it himself, 2. pa frog didn't mention him, 3. thru out the manga like said he is known to be genius- meaning quick learner and extreme chakra manipulating techniques, 4. Naruto, jiraiya, Ao, Gai Lee and sakura/ tsunade (?) just because they had stored theirs for 3 yrs - these ninja are know for there chakra content

 

[Floydical]

Spoiler

I agree that sage mode and senjutsu are the same things and not different.

However. He is capable of balanceing his chakra with natural energy. He is not good at doing that quickly, and maintaining it for long.

Think of it like this.


You have 2 people. Both can build a 10 layer high stack of cards that looks the same. One can do it quickly and get it to last longer because he has trained doing it more. The other can do it, but it takes him longer than the other, and he cannot get it to stay up for long, because he has not done it much.

Naruto has already proven long ago, that you can train to enter sage mode faster, and keep it active longer.

Spoiler

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Naruto had already had a couple days or so of useing sage mode in combat(training in frog fu) before he fought pain.

If minato had just finished the balanceing training(where naruto entered sage mode the first time), then it would make sense that he cant maintain it longer, and is not good at makeing it.

You go try to do something complex and hard to do that you only did once or a few times, and tell me how awesome you are at it. You wont be.


I would be willing to guess that being able to maintain sage mode, would have to do with holding on the the energy(as according to pain at least, it seems sage mode can weaken in strength), while stopping for a sec to absorb a bit here and there.(now this is speculation on stuff we dont know much about.)


Im sorry if you read my previous abomination of a textwall. And im glad to see you are engageing in debate(something many people dont do on the base....people seem to just be "my way or the highway" without any diologue. Engaging in debate does not mean you will change your mind or your opinion. It just means you accept the points and facts regardless of whether or not they suite your opinion.

Have a good day though!

Awesome. I look forward to seeing more replies from hirudora and floydical.

2 people who engage in good debate.

Its not fun makeing a theory only to get replies such as (useing thise threads topic)

"It doesnt matter Minatos fodder"
"Lord sasuke soloes anyways"
"Prime hiruzen soloes universe"

etc.(some are more detailed, and somewhat are debates. But they are usually just people who say what they think, and dont concede any points, where it is due)


So basically its nice to see people debateing, and engageing in diologue.

I think we can agree and come to the conclusion of this.

Minato is most probably "bad" at sage mode, because of his inexperiance.(by bad, we can refer to entering sage mode quickly(this is not where he is most lacking), and absorbing/maintaining enough sage energy, to remain in sage mode)

We can conclude that he has great chakra control(due to his ability to balance the energies, and enter perfect sage mode(which is just when the energies are balanced)

We can also come to the conclusion that if he was still alive, his sage mode would almost certainly be much stronger(as in he never died period) because he could train better. And due to him seeming to have inexperiance in sage mode, it is also nearly certain he doesnt know frog fu.(if i recall part of frog fu, is learning to use sage mode for dodgeing, as well as the invisible punch thing)


I think we can also agree that this wasnt some plot hole or asspull(like many shallow minded people immediately conclude)

Anyways, regardless of whether I got the above right(on what we can agree with), it has been great reading the diologue and debate going on. Have a great night guys!

Thanks for the support. I'm responding to both your posts since I didn't get to them before.

I agree that perhaps Minato was gathering energy before the panel he was shown starting to move, but as I argued with Hirudora, Kishi made the panel in such a way to imply he went into sage mode all at once. At the very least, he made the panels questionable and suspicious without a doubt. Why not add a quick line saying, "I think I've gathered enough chakra now" and then have Minato enter SM? Rather the way Kishi made the panels, we have to assume he went into sage mode all at once. This is logically unrealistic and breaks the rules of the jutsu. This is all my opinion on the matter, most of my argument with Hirudora has been over our own interpretation of the panels, but this is simply what I believe.

To reiterate and touch on your second post, I believe he did enter sage mode very quickly, which directly implies he has skill at SM and thus Senjutsu, in addition to the fact that he has perfect SM to boot.

I just now noticed the motion lines drawn in Sage Minatos panel, plus look at the SHH SHH effects in that same panel, that represents the sage markings appearing on Minatos eyes. So that means Minato was moving while gathering his senjutsu . Plus he threw his kunai before he was in sage mode, which means the time it took Gaara to build his sand wall is how long it took Minato to gather sage mode. And from what I gather, not very long at all.

I directly reference this point in previous responses. You are right, the panels are directly implying that Minato gathered SM very quickly and on the move. Essentially the point of this thread, how can he be bad at it if he achieved such a great feat?

Why NOT minato was known for his chakra manipulation, not abundance of chakra

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So the little he claims he could do is probably because he's a genius

Fukasaku directly states here that you have to have massive amounts of chakra to use SM, that directly implies that Minato had great chakra reserves and great manipulation if he in fact was able to use it. However, I think posting this page actually further proves that Kishi never intended to give Minato SM in the first place. As you said, he does not mention Minato but does mention Jiraiya, which we can assume means he never trained Minato for it.

 

[Gold Lightning]

I directly reference this point in previous responses. You are right, the panels are directly implying that Minato gathered SM very quickly and on the move. Essentially the point of this thread, how can he be bad at it if he achieved such a great feat?

Well me and a couple others theorize that what Minato did was simply this:

You can enter sage mode quickly depending on how much senjutsu /natural energy you gather. I sincerely believe that Minato gathered a small amount of natural energy, just enough to make a sage art rasengan. In other words, Minato put all the senjutsu he gathered into that one attack and used it all up then. Thus explaining why Minato wasn't in sage mode afterwords.

However, if Minato wants to stay in Sage mode longer, then he needs to gather more senjutsu - which takes him longer compared to Naruto who has practiced doing this more, hence why he can maintain Sage mode longer than his previous 5 minute time limit.

Now we see that Naruto can also take long in gathering senjutsu:

Spoiler

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The reason it takes him longer than usual is because he needs more senjutsu than normal to use a Rasenshuriken

But then we see here that Naruto can go into sage mode very quickly, he even moves in the previous panel, meaning that he literally only gathered senjutsu for a few seconds, just like Minato did.

Spoiler

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His sage mode then runs out shortly afterwords even though he used no jutsu or senjutsu taxing techniques:

Spoiler

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Naruto's only aim was to get past these 2 Akimichi clan members using his physical strength, since he'd never be able to in his normal state:

Spoiler

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So like I've said before, you can gather just the right amount of senjutsu to use for quick small burst and focus it all into one move/attack. The less senjutsu you gather, the faster you can enter sage mode, but the less senjutsu you have access to use on more jutsu, using it all up very quickly. But the longer you gather senjutsu, the more senjutsu you have available to use for more and bigger attacks and you can maintain Sage Mode longer.

 

[xbreedsx]

Even though he suck at it doesn't mean he won't be able to master it. He is in battle right now with a Juubi Jin that can only be harmed by Senjustsu or Taijutsu. Right now, is his time and probably the first time to use Sage Mode in battle and I'm sure he will be able to become good at it during this war arc.

 

[Floydical]

Spoiler

Well me and a couple others theorize that what Minato did was simply this:

You can enter sage mode quickly depending on how much senjutsu /natural energy you gather. I sincerely believe that Minato gathered a small amount of natural energy, just enough to make a sage art rasengan. In other words, Minato put all the senjutsu he gathered into that one attack and used it all up then. Thus explaining why Minato wasn't in sage mode afterwords.

However, if Minato wants to stay in Sage mode longer, then he needs to gather more senjutsu - which takes him longer compared to Naruto who has practiced doing this more, hence why he can maintain Sage mode longer than his previous 5 minute time limit.

Now we see that Naruto can also take long in gathering senjutsu:

Spoiler

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The reason it takes him longer than usual is because he needs more senjutsu than normal to use a Rasenshuriken

But then we see here that Naruto can go into sage mode very quickly, he even moves in the previous panel, meaning that he literally only gathered senjutsu for a few seconds, just like Minato did.

Spoiler

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His sage mode then runs out shortly afterwords even though he used no jutsu or senjutsu taxing techniques:

Spoiler

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Naruto's only aim was to get past these 2 Akimichi clan members using his physical strength, since he'd never be able to in his normal state:

Spoiler

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So like I've said before, you can gather just the right amount of senjutsu to use for quick small burst and focus it all into one move/attack. The less senjutsu you gather, the faster you can enter sage mode, but the less senjutsu you have access to use on more jutsu, using it all up very quickly. But the longer you gather senjutsu, the more senjutsu you have available to use for more and bigger attacks and you can maintain Sage Mode longer.

Quite a detailed and well thought out analysis, I have to give you credit that what you are saying makes sense, with the exception of one thing. You are implying that a full SM Naruto can actually vary in duration of SM by the amount of time he took gathering natural energy before reaching that phase. However, you also gave examples of him meditating, or lack of meditating, before reaching a standard state of SM, that being a state with Orange-shaded eyes (the mark of being in sage mode). So assuming what you are implying, why does he achieve the Orange-shaded marks very quickly in some instances and in others take a good amount of time to achieve them?

To reiterate, if the duration of meditation determines the overall strength or duration of the Senjutsu, then why does he not attain the SM markings early during his meditation when, say, when he was meditating in the war on the front lines? Why do the marks come to be at varying times of meditation?

To get straight to my point, what I am trying to say is that I believe that once he obtains the full Orange-shaded markings, he is in full sage mode and I theorize that the amount of Sage Chakra gathered up to that point is fixed and cannot be exceeded. By that I mean once he obtains the orange marks, no matter how long he spent meditating, he has reached the maximum amount of SM chakra he can attain in one sitting.

I hope I made myself abundantly clear, but despite your keen analysis, I must disagree and instead propose that none of his SM sittings have ever varied in overall natural energy gathered, instead he has a fixed maximum amount of sage chakra possible that is marked by him gaining the orange markings.

As to why he has varied in duration of meditation, I cannot say and that is why panels such as these (like the one you posted of him breaking out of his friendly prison) are very questionable in my opinion.