I'm not sold on Minato being 'bad' at senjutsu

[Mr Hiru]

This chapter only proved that Minato had to go through a lot of troubles in order to reach mastery over sage mode.

And at the same time, it proved which is the role that 'chakra reserves' play in the use of Senjutsu.

 

[Fair Warning]

he doesn't "suck" at it, he just can't utilize it to the point Naruto does with Shadow Clones. Minato can still gather chakra for a while before combat like Naruto, but he can only hold it for about five minutes, and he has never needed to use it.

 

[Floydical]

gotta love minato fans arguing against 100% straight up manga facts that minato sucks at SM, which is why he never used it when he was alive especially

Lol, why do I always get one of these trolls in here? I defend myself against it whenever I get accused, I am not a fanboy. Does my thread in anyway portray me as someone who blindly believes Minato is better than Kishi says he is? I think not. Would a fanboy take the time to go through this analysis attempting to prove my point? No, they would spout some nonsense and say its not right in a couple of sentences. I am simply explaining why I believe a portion of the manga does not make sense to me. I am accumulating pages that I feel support my claims. I don't write threads out of anger regarding how a character is portrayed or treated, I write threads that ask questions regarding aspects of the manga.

Also, Minato performed SM without any effort. Jiraiya had to stand still until he transformed, Naruto has to sit down and do a meditation-like action to perform it, and Minato can just activate it at will...And he's bad at it?

This is the bulk of the point of my thread, that and he can achieve perfect transformation with no frog features.

It is exactly the contrary. I separated the concepts because I'm sure he was referring to the ability to absorb natural energy, mold/knead it and mantain it.

If he is not fast doing that with natural energy, then he isn't good enough in every Senjutsu moves.

Absorbing the natural energy is the first step of Senjutsu, and by transitivity, Sage Mode. It's the basics, and he already told that he is slow at mantaining the senjutsu chakra.

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A => B
B => C
Ergo, A => C

I can't be more explicit than that. These are the reasons of why Naruto surpassed him.

Take in mind... Minato took 3 years to create and master the Rasengan, Naruto took only 3 weeks.

Fact is, he has shown that he is fast at kneading the chakra, the image I've posted many times. You can keep defending your point that he is proficient at this while still lacking in that, but it does not change the fact that there is inconsistency going on here. Minato can't instantly go into SM in the course of one panel while moving and then say he's too slow at kneading the chakra to use it properly in combat, its completely ludicrous. I get the attempt to try to explain things as a way to defend Kishi and his work, but are you so fixated that you can't doubt what Kishi does? I love this manga but I also like to be critical when I feel its relevant.

I'm also considering this translation in my analysis:

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[Mr Hiru]

Lol, why do I always get one of these trolls in here? I defend myself against it whenever I get accused, I am not a fanboy. Does my thread in anyway portray me as someone who blindly believes Minato is better than Kishi says he is? I think not. Would a fanboy take the time to go through this analysis attempting to prove my point? No, they would spout some nonsense and say its not right in a couple of sentences. I am simply explaining why I believe a portion of the manga does not make sense to me. I am accumulating pages that I feel support my claims. I don't write threads out of anger regarding how a character is portrayed or treated, I write threads that ask questions regarding aspects of the manga.



This is the bulk of the point of my thread, that and he can achieve perfect transformation with no frog features.



Fact is, he has shown that he is fast at kneading the chakra, the image I've posted many times. You can keep defending your point that he is proficient at this while still lacking in that, but it does not change the fact that there is inconsistency going on here. Minato can't instantly go into SM in the course of one panel while moving and then say he's too slow at kneading the chakra to use it properly in combat, its completely ludicrous. I get the attempt to try to explain things as a way to defend Kishi and his work, but are you so fixated that you can't doubt what Kishi does? I love this manga but I also like to be critical when I feel its relevant.

I'm also considering this translation in my analysis:

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Lol it's kind of offensive to use my 'love' for Kishimoto's work. But I'm not that hot headed to fall by such kind of words, so I'll just skip that.

Fact is, I'm doing rebuttal in this thread because I have the conviction that Minato didn't have inconsistency after what happened in the last chapter.

- The basics, as I explained:

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- The name of techniques using the three kind of energies:

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- And the speciality: Manipulation of nature energy:

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- A perfect Sage:

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- Sage Mode is just a step. More steps - Frog-Fu:

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- In order to gather nature energy, you can't move, but you can momentarily stop and gather, meaning that once you have natural energy, it doesn't disperse at all:

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,

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,

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And last time Minato did something before awakening Sage mode was chapter 664

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And then... Obito was walking. No one was between him and Madara. He had to waste a minimum of 8~10 seconds in this:

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And then we find Minato who was already in Sage Mode, moving towards Madara (I assume that he is using Hiraishin):

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Conclusion:

It's clear... After Obito's battle, Minato wasn't in constant movement. So he had time doing 'apparently nothing', specially after his failed attempt to seal Yin Kurama inside Naruto... so if you link all the pieces, it's evident he had plenty of time to gather little quantities of nature energy and kneading to enter in Sage Mode. And while Obito was walking towards Madara, Minato entered Sage Mode, most likely off panel.

Also, let me be clear. Under this point of view, your assumption of him 'moving while gathering nature energy' is contradictory to previous evidence. So, I'm not having ludicrous thoughts in this answer.

I hope I was clear. I only act and talk based on facts OR possibilities, not in emotions.

PS: And answering to the 'love' (Lol), let me be clear as well. Kishimoto isn't my favorite writer out there... I find he is regular. He bases his moves on logic, everytime I see the word 'asspull' it's because the person failed to read, he/she skipped a foreshadow/hint. BUT, Kishimoto stretches way too much his logic, making his moves being kind of unbelievable.

 

[Orochimagus]

Who says Minato was not storing energy for a while? He was standing in place being useless and in awe for a long, long time. He's got good balance but humorously bad speed.

 

[Floydical]

Lol it's kind of offensive to use my 'love' for Kishimoto's work. But I'm not that hot headed to fall by such kind of words, so I'll just skip that.

Fact is, I'm doing rebuttal in this thread because I have the conviction that Minato didn't have inconsistency after what happened in the last chapter.

- The basics, as I explained:

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- The name of techniques using the three kind of energies:

You must be registered for see links

- And the speciality: Manipulation of nature energy:

You must be registered for see links

- A perfect Sage:

You must be registered for see links

- Sage Mode is just a step. More steps - Frog-Fu:

You must be registered for see links

- In order to gather nature energy, you can't move, but you can momentarily stop and gather, meaning that once you have natural energy, it doesn't disperse at all:

You must be registered for see links

,

You must be registered for see links

,

You must be registered for see links

And last time Minato did something before awakening Sage mode was chapter 664

You must be registered for see links

And then... Obito was walking. No one was between him and Madara. He had to waste a minimum of 8~10 seconds in this:

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And then we find Minato who was already in Sage Mode, moving towards Madara (I assume that he is using Hiraishin):

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Conclusion:

It's clear... After Obito's battle, Minato wasn't in constant movement. So he had time doing 'apparently nothing', specially after his failed attempt to seal Yin Kurama inside Naruto... so if you link all the pieces, it's evident he had plenty of time to gather little quantities of nature energy and kneading to enter in Sage Mode. And while Obito was walking towards Madara, Minato entered Sage Mode, most likely off panel.

Also, let me be clear. Under this point of view, your assumption of him 'moving while gathering nature energy' is contradictory to previous evidence. So, I'm not having ludicrous thoughts in this answer.

I hope I was clear. I only act and talk based on facts OR possibilities, not in emotions.

PS: And answering to the 'love' (Lol), let me be clear as well. Kishimoto isn't my favorite writer out there... I find he is regular. He bases his moves on logic, everytime I see the word 'asspull' it's because the person failed to read, he/she skipped a foreshadow/hint. BUT, Kishimoto stretches way too much his logic, making his moves being kind of unbelievable.

First off, I didn't say you loved the manga, I said I loved it. What I said about you was that I thought you were trying hard to defend Kishi, which is something a lot of people will do on this site before ever criticizing him.

In regard to your point, I agree that its possible that he could have been building up natural energy while he wasn't in the fight but the problem lies in the way Kishi decided to show it. In my opinion, the pages imply that he started moving before entering sage mode and attains sage mode while running. At the very least, the point I'm making is that Kishi made the whole event ambiguous. Kishi has done this before, making panels that make little sense at all.

Again, the fact that Kishi decided to show it the way he did makes the whole event seem very un-logical. He did it in a way that leaves questions to be answered and ultimately causes ambiguity. Like I said, I think its possible that what you are assuming could be right, but you can't prove it and you must admit that it was done in a pretty unsatisfactory way. At the very least, Kishi is causing people to question his work, and this is not the first instance of it.

Btw, I never said you were being ludicrous, I said that the way Kishi portrayed the scene, he made it look like Minato is entering SM while running, which is ludicrous.

 

[Mr Hiru]

First off, I didn't say you loved the manga, I said I loved it. What I said about you was that I thought you were trying hard to defend Kishi, which is something a lot of people will do on this site before ever criticizing him.

In regard to your point, I agree that its possible that he could have been building up natural energy while he wasn't in the fight but the problem lies in the way Kishi decided to show it. In my opinion, the pages imply that he started moving before entering sage mode and attains sage mode while running. At the very least, the point I'm making is that Kishi made the whole event ambiguous. Kishi has done this before, making panels that make little sense at all.

Again, the fact that Kishi decided to show it the way he did makes the whole event seem very un-logical. He did it in a way that leaves questions to be answered and ultimately causes ambiguity. Like I said, I think its possible that what you are assuming could be right, but you can't prove it and you must admit that it was done in a pretty unsatisfactory way. At the very least, Kishi is causing people to question his work, and this is not the first instance of it.

Btw, I never said you were being ludicrous, I said that the way Kishi portrayed the scene, he made it look like Minato is entering SM while running, which is ludicrous.

Point taken. Anyways, as facts state that Natural Energy can't be absorbed while moving, my interpretation towards Minato entering Sage Mode off panel and appearing already in Sage Mode and moving with Hiraishin will remain until anime clears out what is happening, meaning no inconsistencies at all.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Why is Minato able to use Sage Mode? So that he can tell us in a later chapter that he can't really use it. I know that makes very little sense but I will try to explain. Suppose for a second Narutoverse is caught in a temporal loop (like Izanami), and you as a writer want to show evidence of this loop to the reader, how would you go about doing this? By demonstrating some kind of inconsistency. Each chapter, each page, and even each panel could actually be occurring in a completely different loop. Each loop presents different variations that come across as inconsistencies. You may recall Kabuto's horn getting cut over and over and the crow feathers from Itachi's dispersal continuing to increase. So, is it possible that in one of the loops Minato learned sage mode? Yes. Is it possible that in another loop cycle he didn't? Yes. When Minato contradicts himself he really isn't because it isn't the same loop. But you know this already...

 

[tasuxeda]

Entering sage mode happens when you have a perfect balance between physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy is achieved however once a perfect balance has been achieved no more natural energy is required until more chakra is created requiring more natural energy to maintain sage mode meaning Minato could have just gathered enough natural energy to activated his sage mode when he attacked.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Entering sage mode happens when you have a perfect balance between physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy is achieved however once a perfect balance has been achieved no more natural energy is required until more chakra is created requiring more natural energy to maintain sage mode meaning Minato could have just gathered enough natural energy to activated his sage mode when he attacked.

Sniff sniff, smells like an alt.

 

[Almighty Ra]

I dig this thread alot of great points brought by all.

 

[Bansho Tenin]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet but edo tensei bodies aren't at their full power like Tobirama said. Minato died pretty young also so maybe he never had enough time to practice it....

 

[Gold Lightning]

Because he isn't really bad at sage mode, he's a "Perfect" sage after all. Compared to Naruto though, his sage mode is inferior due to lack of practice. Feels more like Minato being modest to be honest, as if he feels his level of senjutsu isn't good enough. It's like if I scored a 99% on a test, I'd be pissed because I'd feel like I should have gotten full marks.

The speed at which he threw the kunai, entered sage mode, teleported to Madara, and already formed a Rasengan was so fast that it's impossible for me to believe that his senjutsu sucks.

 

[Geezus]

Giving Minato SM in the first place was a questionable decision if you ask me, but now Kishi is trying to cover that plot hole by saying, "Wait, actually he's not really that good at using SM 0_o". I hate to post manga evidence against Kishi himself, but look at Minato while he uses SM:

Spoiler

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Look familiar? It should, because he looks just like Naruto when he's in SM and he's A PERFECT SAGE!!:

Spoiler

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When we saw Jiraiya use SM, who also said he had room to improve, he looked like this:

Spoiler

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Clearly Jiraiya partially transformed into a toad because he wasn't proficient at maintaining SM. So for Minato to CLAIM he's bad at using SM but yet achieves perfect SM during is first combat application of the jutsu..... it makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean it would have made much better sense if he had mastered it yet never used it in combat because it doesn't match his fighting style. Minato doesn't use clones and specializes in ST techs, so it logically doesn't fit his combat repertoire, but still, he shows clear mastery of the technique itself, so he is far from bad at using Senjutsu. I mean is it really logical that he attains perfect sage mode on his first try in actual combat? I think not.

To defend the point even more, Fukasaku admits that Naruto has surpassed his predecessors:

Spoiler

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Would Fukasaku genuinely admit that Naruto surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato if he was in-fact knew Minato had perfect SM? I mean Fukasaku is the only logical person to have trained Minato to that level and if he taught Minato to use perfect sage mode, even if he didn't use it in combat, saying Naruto surpassed him is questionable imo. I think the only reason Kishi had Fukasaku say that is because he never intended to give Minato SM in the first place. I genuinely believe that Kishi did not intend to give Minato SM until during the war, like many other power-ups that have happened, and I genuinely think that the explanation given regarding Minato's 'not so good at SM' contradicts what we saw a few chapters ago. Not to mention Minato seems to enter sage mode in the course of 2 panels and somehow achieves this feat WHILE MOVING!!! Oh yes, clearly Minato is terrible at using Senjutsu U_U:

Spoiler

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I don't know what's going on in this manga anymore. I have a feeling Kishi was addressing concerns of the community regarding Minato having SM. I feel that he felt forced into an explanation and felt taking this route was easiest. I think its clear, however, that such an explanation holds no water and cannot be considered logical in any way. I just find this issue to be very confusing and personally feel that Kishi caved into the hate and decided to squeeze in this explanation to please his fans. Anyone else dissatisfied with this explanation? What do you guys think about this issue?

U_U Another one of these threads???

You guys doubt my main man Kishi, I'm going to explain this as best I can.


Minato having Sage Mode is not something that should be alarming or rather even something readers I feel should be angry about. It's always been speculated he knew Sage Mode even if it wasn't official mentioned until recent. When the Sage Toad told Jiriaya he would lead the Child of Prophecy or whatnot he would come to see Minato as that child, thus he imparted to him all he knew including Toad Summons and obviously Senjutsu. Though it's not stated when, its been clarified by Minato that he is in fact not that good at Sage Jutsu, this can be attributed to the fact he either hasn't ever used them in a real fight or never really had a need to use them this doesn't mean he can't use them. Now of course there is a opponent who can in fact only be damaged by Sage mode techniques so thus the reason he has to even resort to them in the first place. As far as his Sage mode state it does in fact look like he is in perfect Sage Mode, I think that we can only attribute that to the fact that Minato a former Hokage must indeed have excellent chakra control abilities in order to have come up with the Rasengan you'd have to definitely be able to control your chakra to a considerable level thus why Minato is able to balance all three perfectly and achieve the perfect look but he lacks the chakra capacity to hold a strong/large amount of natural energy which he has to balance out with his on physical and spiritual energies thus making them weaker in comparison one can only assusme.

Naruto on the other hand has a huge supply of chakra due to his Uzumaki lineage, this makes it alot easier for him to preform feats many others are incapable of thus why he has achieved perfect Sage Mode not only in look but in ability as well. He can gather and concentrate large amounts of natural energy very quickly thanks to his training with Fukusaku and ontop of that the Nine-Tails inside of him allows Naruto to gather Natural Energy much more efficiently and quickly as it's been shown.

Jiriaya's Sage Mode on the other hand was imperfect as he needed Ma and Pa toad in order to enter Sage Mode at all. Jiraya's Sage Mode had the power but lacked the look of perfect Sage mode due to him needing to use the summons in order to gather it and fuse it with his chakra reserves which is why they fused with him before he entered Sage Mode.

I think someone mentioned it in this thread already, but we can also determine that Minato didn't gather the chakra while moving, but rather when he finished gathering the chakra had he moved. This process could have been going on for a while since the arrival of Madara they have all been in a stand off and seeing that Madara is now the Juubi jinchuriki he knows only Sage Mode can hope to damage him. So, this is also debunked as we can't put a time frame on how long he had been gathering the energy.


Hopefully I cleared a few things up, and if theres something I missed please let me know. :3

 

[Gold Lightning]

U_U Another one of these threads???

You guys doubt my main man Kishi, I'm going to explain this as best I can.


Minato having Sage Mode is not something that should be alarming or rather even something readers I feel should be angry about. It's always been speculated he knew Sage Mode even if it wasn't official mentioned until recent. When the Sage Toad told Jiriaya he would lead the Child of Prophecy or whatnot he would come to see Minato as that child, thus he imparted to him all he knew including Toad Summons and obviously Senjutsu. Though it's not stated when, its been clarified by Minato that he is in fact not that good at Sage Jutsu, this can be attributed to the fact he either hasn't ever used them in a real fight or never really had a need to use them this doesn't mean he can't use them. Now of course there is a opponent who can in fact only be damaged by Sage mode techniques so thus the reason he has to even resort to them in the first place. As far as his Sage mode state it does in fact look like he is in perfect Sage Mode, I think that we can only attribute that to the fact that Minato a former Hokage must indeed have excellent chakra control abilities in order to have come up with the Rasengan you'd have to definitely be able to control your chakra to a considerable level thus why Minato is able to balance all three perfectly and achieve the perfect look but he lacks the chakra capacity to hold a strong/large amount of natural energy which he has to balance out with his on physical and spiritual energies thus making them weaker in comparison one can only assusme.

Naruto on the other hand has a huge supply of chakra due to his Uzumaki lineage, this makes it alot easier for him to preform feats many others are incapable of thus why he has achieved perfect Sage Mode not only in look but in ability as well. He can gather and concentrate large amounts of natural energy very quickly thanks to his training with Fukusaku and ontop of that the Nine-Tails inside of him allows Naruto to gather Natural Energy much more efficiently and quickly as it's been shown.

Jiriaya's Sage Mode on the other hand was imperfect as he needed Ma and Pa toad in order to enter Sage Mode at all. Jiraya's Sage Mode had the power but lacked the look of perfect Sage mode due to him needing to use the summons in order to gather it and fuse it with his chakra reserves which is why they fused with him before he entered Sage Mode.

I think someone mentioned it in this thread already, but we can also determine that Minato didn't gather the chakra while moving, but rather when he finished gathering the chakra had he moved. This process could have been going on for a while since the arrival of Madara they have all been in a stand off and seeing that Madara is now the Juubi jinchuriki he knows only Sage Mode can hope to damage him. So, this is also debunked as we can't put a time frame on how long he had been gathering the energy.


Hopefully I cleared a few things up, and if theres something I missed please let me know. :3

I agree with everything you said except for Minato not having the chakra capacity to use store enough senjutsu, I believe that is false. In order to be able to gather natural energy, you need to have already had an "ENORMOUS" amount of chakra. Otherwise the natural energy would take over and you'd turn into a toad, as stated by Fukasaku.

Naruto could only use Sage Mode for 5 minutes back when he first learned it. But Naruto got better at it and improved his senjutsu, hence why Naruto can use and maintain it better and longer. Minato said he didn't practice his much with senjutsu, nor did he use it in battle. If Minato practiced and trained more with sage mode, he'd have imporved to Naruto's current level now. He just died before he could hit his prime is all.

 

[Madara Uzumaki Uchiha]

From my understanding- Minato "perfected" sage mode- however this doesnot mean it is good for him to use in combat
1. Sure, we only say him kneading chakra for two panels, however he claimed to take a long time to gather even a small amount ( he only had sage mode for 1 attack.

Here is what I infered from what Minato said

-In order to go into sage mode, you need to balance your chakra with natural chakra- unfortunatly for Minato he doesnot have much chakra to balance with. When Naruto balances his chakra- his sage mode lasts as long as it does because he has a massive chakra pool -

My theory is that Minato has a small chakra pool, meaning he can maintain SM for a very short amount of time.
Because of this, Sage Mode is generally not worth entering because it only lasts for a moment.

-When minato said Im bad with senjustu, I interpret it as senjustu is bad for me------ I do find it strange that Minato achieved Perfect Sage mode, I thought you needed some excpetional qualities to enter it ( strond body etc...)

 

[osba]

not to forget that this is not the first time kishi EFFED up on sage mode..

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a WAY better explanation would have been him having too weak chakra (well that is basically what he was saying in the last chapter actually, but this is still a plothole IMO.. if he isn't capable of molding the nature energy properly then he should not be capable of controlling it either.)

 

[Gold Lightning]

From my understanding- Minato "perfected" sage mode- however this doesnot mean it is good for him to use in combat
1. Sure, we only say him kneading chakra for two panels, however he claimed to take a long time to gather even a small amount ( he only had sage mode for 1 attack.

Here is what I infered from what Minato said

-In order to go into sage mode, you need to balance your chakra with natural chakra- unfortunatly for Minato he doesnot have much chakra to balance with. When Naruto balances his chakra- his sage mode lasts as long as it does because he has a massive chakra pool -

My theory is that Minato has a small chakra pool, meaning he can maintain SM for a very short amount of time.
Because of this, Sage Mode is generally not worth entering because it only lasts for a moment.

-When minato said Im bad with senjustu, I interpret it as senjustu is bad for me------ I do find it strange that Minato achieved Perfect Sage mode, I thought you needed some excpetional qualities to enter it ( strond body etc...)

Minato has massive chakra pools, chakra isn't the problem. It's just due to lack of practice, if Minato trained more with it then he'd be better.

 

[osba]

Minato has massive chakra pools, chakra isn't the problem. It's just due to lack of practice, if Minato trained more with it then he'd be better.

lol you didn't base this on any manga facts AT ALL xD

 

[Geezus]

lol you didn't base this on any manga facts AT ALL xD

Minato is a Kage ranked character.
He would have to at least have a high level of chakra in order to be one. It's context clues.