I'm not sold on Minato being 'bad' at senjutsu

[Floydical]

Giving Minato SM in the first place was a questionable decision if you ask me, but now Kishi is trying to cover that plot hole by saying, "Wait, actually he's not really that good at using SM 0_o". I hate to post manga evidence against Kishi himself, but look at Minato while he uses SM:

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Look familiar? It should, because he looks just like Naruto when he's in SM and he's A PERFECT SAGE!!:

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When we saw Jiraiya use SM, who also said he had room to improve, he looked like this:

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Clearly Jiraiya partially transformed into a toad because he wasn't proficient at maintaining SM. So for Minato to CLAIM he's bad at using SM but yet achieves perfect SM during is first combat application of the jutsu..... it makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean it would have made much better sense if he had mastered it yet never used it in combat because it doesn't match his fighting style. Minato doesn't use clones and specializes in ST techs, so it logically doesn't fit his combat repertoire, but still, he shows clear mastery of the technique itself, so he is far from bad at using Senjutsu. I mean is it really logical that he attains perfect sage mode on his first try in actual combat? I think not.

To defend the point even more, Fukasaku admits that Naruto has surpassed his predecessors:

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Would Fukasaku genuinely admit that Naruto surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato if he was in-fact knew Minato had perfect SM? I mean Fukasaku is the only logical person to have trained Minato to that level and if he taught Minato to use perfect sage mode, even if he didn't use it in combat, saying Naruto surpassed him is questionable imo. I think the only reason Kishi had Fukasaku say that is because he never intended to give Minato SM in the first place. I genuinely believe that Kishi did not intend to give Minato SM until during the war, like many other power-ups that have happened, and I genuinely think that the explanation given regarding Minato's 'not so good at SM' contradicts what we saw a few chapters ago. Not to mention Minato seems to enter sage mode in the course of 2 panels and somehow achieves this feat WHILE MOVING!!! Oh yes, clearly Minato is terrible at using Senjutsu U_U:

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I don't know what's going on in this manga anymore. I have a feeling Kishi was addressing concerns of the community regarding Minato having SM. I feel that he felt forced into an explanation and felt taking this route was easiest. I think its clear, however, that such an explanation holds no water and cannot be considered logical in any way. I just find this issue to be very confusing and personally feel that Kishi caved into the hate and decided to squeeze in this explanation to please his fans. Anyone else dissatisfied with this explanation? What do you guys think about this issue?

 

[narutorikudoumode]

Did he not state that he sucked at senjutsu then that is all there is to it.

 

[P3ĮÑ]

(Taken from text)

Clearly Jiraiya partially transformed into a toad because he wasn't proficient at maintaining SM. So for Minato to CLAIM he's bad at using SM but yet achieves perfect SM during is first combat application of the jutsu..... it makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean it would have made much better sense if he had mastered it yet never used it in combat because it doesn't match his fighting style. Minato doesn't use clones and specializes in ST techs, so it logically doesn't fit his combat repertoire, but still, he shows clear mastery of the technique itself, so he is far from bad at using Senjutsu. I mean is it really logical that he attains perfect sage mode on his first try in actual combat? I think not.

---

Would Fukasaku genuinely admit that Naruto surpassed both Jiraiya and Minato if he was in-fact knew Minato had perfect SM? I mean Fukasaku is the only logical person to have trained Minato to that level and if he taught Minato to use perfect sage mode, even if he didn't use it in combat, saying Naruto surpassed him is questionable imo. I think the only reason Kishi had Fukasaku say that is because he never intended to give Minato SM in the first place. I genuinely believe that Kishi did not intend to give Minato SM until during the war, like many other power-ups that have happened, and I genuinely think that the explanation given regarding Minato's 'not so good at SM' contradicts what we saw a few chapters ago. Not to mention Minato seems to enter sage mode in the course of 2 panels and somehow achieves this feat WHILE MOVING!!! Oh yes, clearly Minato is terrible at using Senjutsu

These points seem very well thought out, quite convincing and corroborative but we have pragmatical people on NB, tho. (Myself too) but nevertheless, laudable effort.

 

[YellowFang]

Sage Mode mechanics...
- Not anyone can knead Nature energy...
- For someone who trains to do so,
. Knead Nature energy...
. Balance it's ratio with own spiritual energy and physical energy...

Facts:
- Minato has good chakra reserves...


Since his chakra control is just fabulous, he shouldn't have problem balancing it with natural energy which determines whether the Sage is perfect or not...
Minato said it takes too much time for him to knead natural energy...

This justifies his sudden use of SM recently, never in his life of wars he had a opponent who could only be hurt by Senjutsu and knowing that he can't do well in it and Naruto's a better user than him, he hadn't any need to initiate SM.

But against RS-Madara, he was the only hope and knowingly that he can't keep it for long,
He kneaded a small amount of Nature energy, balanced it perfectly hence the clear Sage markings, put his all hope in his that single attack that was effortlessly avoided...
What's so surprising in it???

 

[Floydical]

(Taken from text)

---

These points seem very well thought out, quite convincing and corroborative but we have pragmatical people on NB, tho. (Myself too) but nevertheless, laudable effort.

Thanks, but I honestly find your level of vocabulary kind of scary 0_o.

 

[P3ĮÑ]

Thanks, but I honestly find your level of vocabulary kind of scary 0_o.

No probs. Laconically, I major in English, so I'm pretty fluent with the language and coherent with my wording. So don't be scared. I usually tend to emulate this method when I'm serious or giving someone a straight response. Or to truly aver their argument.

But anyways, you've made good thread.

 

[Floydical]

Sage Mode mechanics...
- Not anyone can knead Nature energy...
- For someone who trains to do so,
. Knead Nature energy...
. Balance it's ratio with own spiritual energy and physical energy...

Facts:
- Minato has good chakra reserves...


Since his chakra control is just fabulous, he shouldn't have problem balancing it with natural energy which determines whether the Sage is perfect or not...
Minato said it takes too much time for him to knead natural energy...

This justifies his sudden use of SM recently, never in his life of wars he had a opponent who could only be hurt by Senjutsu and knowing that he can't do well in it and Naruto's a better user than him, he hadn't any need to initiate SM.

But against RS-Madara, he was the only hope and knowingly that he can't keep it for long,
He kneaded a small amount of Nature energy, balanced it perfectly hence the clear Sage markings, put his all hope in his that single attack that was effortlessly avoided...
What's so surprising in it???

But therein lies the problem. He directly states that it takes too long to knead the necessary natural energy yet he does so in an instant and even manages to do it while moving (see above image). That statement would suggest that to achieve what he did in said panel, it would have required him to sit and meditate for an extended period to achieve it, yet he did so instantly.

What I'm saying is the explanation does not match up with the level of usage we witnessed. Kishi is not staying consistent on the matter and I feel he felt forced to create that questionable explanation.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I think Kishimoto is right.

a) Jirayia was not a perfect Sage
b) Naruto surpassed his predecesors, Jirayia and Minato.
c) Naruto was a perfect Sage.

What makes you think that being a perfect sage means that there is no difference between two perfect sages? What makes you think that someone sucking at Senjutsu can't be a Perfect Sage?

I think you're mistaking Sage Mode with Senjutsu.

The marks of Perfect Sage Mode only lets you know that a person can attain Sage Mode, not that you can gather a lot of chakra to control this sage mode for longer time.

Minato can have Perfect Sage Mode and suck in Senjutsu, because he can't gather enough natural energy to control it, because apparently his chakra reserves are not as big as Naruto's total stamina, and as consequence he can only do few jutsus, maintain Sage mode lesser time, and do lesser scale jutsus.

Ergo, his proficiency using Perfect Sage Mode is way lesser than Naruto's. It seems that even in Perfect Sage Mode there are gray scales.

 

[Floydical]

No probs. Laconically, I major in English, so I'm pretty fluent with the language and coherent with my wording. So don't be scared. I usually tend to emulate this method when I'm serious or giving someone a straight response. Or to truly aver their argument.

But anyways, you've made a good thread.

And that was supposed to change my opinion 0_o? lol

Jokes aside, thank for the support, I appreciate it.

I think Kishimoto is right.

a) Jirayia was not a perfect Sage
b) Naruto surpassed his predecesors, Jirayia and Minato.
c) Naruto was a perfect Sage.

What makes you think that being a perfect sage means that there is no difference between two perfect sages? What makes you think that someone sucking at Senjutsu can't be a Perfect Sage?

I think you're mistaking Sage Mode with Senjutsu.

The marks of Perfect Sage Mode only lets you know that a person can attain Sage Mode, not that you can gather a lot of chakra to control this sage mode for longer time.

Minato can have Perfect Sage Mode and suck in Senjutsu, because he can't gather enough natural energy to control it, because apparently his chakra reserves are not as big as Naruto's total stamina, and as consequence he can only do few jutsus, maintain Sage mode lesser time, and do lesser scale jutsus.

Ergo, his proficiency using Perfect Sage Mode is way lesser than Naruto's. It seems that even in Perfect Sage Mode there are gray scales.

Thank you for the valid counter-argument, this is what these forums are meant for.

1. Sage mode is a form of Senjutsu. The reason I'm equating SM to Senjutsu is because that is all Minato has shown in terms of the technique classification. I mean all he did was use Rasengan while in SM, do you really think he can do any other Senjutsu moves other than SM? I don't think Kishi has the imagination for that, so yes I think I can justify equating Senjutsu to SM.

2. If he's bad at Senjutsu (which equates to being bad at using SM using the above logic) then how did he attain a perfect version of the technique in a near instant during his first combat application of the technique ALL WHILE MOVING? I honestly don't care how long he can maintain the technique or what jutsu he can manage while keeping it activated. If he can achieve a perfect version in a near instant combat application, none of that matters because he can just re-attain it in an instant once it wears off.

Even if I assume you are right that he cannot maintain the form for long, he still shows mastery of the technique on at least 3 other levels that would logically make him proficient at the technique.

 

[YellowFang]

But therein lies the problem. He directly states that it takes too long to knead the necessary natural energy yet he does so in an instant and even manages to do it while moving (see above image). That statement would suggest that to achieve what he did in said panel, it would have required him to sit and meditate for an extended period to achieve it, yet he did so instantly.

What I'm saying is the explanation does not match up with the level of usage we witnessed. Kishi is not staying consistent on the matter and I feel he felt forced to create that questionable explanation.

That's a little detail IMO... Maybe he managed to gather some Natural energy while he was still and quickly balanced it to get in SM...
If we look from the incident's perspective, it's not a big deal... First, acknowledge what happened and then ponder every detail how it may have happened...

Usually, people go for the course's perspective meaning, they follow the series of events and if some event doesn't fit there correctly, they mark it as a blunder...

1. Sage mode is a form of Senjutsu.

Nope, Senjutsu is application of SM...
This might be the problem in understanding,
Minato does knead Natural energy and balance it with his Chakra perfectly, but the amount isn't sufficient enough to perform various Senjutsu, that's why his SM lasted only for a Rasengan...

 

[saw2097]

Just because you can achieve Sage Mode doesn't mean you are good at using it.

If Minato says he isn't good at using Senjutsu, then that is that. Its Kishi's manga that means its his rules, if he says Minato is bad at using Sage Mode that is final.

 

[Mr Hiru]

And that was supposed to change my opinion 0_o? lol

Jokes aside, thank for the support, I appreciate it.



Thank you for the valid counter-argument, this is what these forums are meant for.

1. Sage mode is a form of Senjutsu. The reason I'm equating SM to Senjutsu is because that is all Minato has shown in terms of the technique classification. I mean all he did was use Rasengan while in SM, do you really think he can do any other Senjutsu moves other than SM? I don't think Kishi has the imagination for that, so yes I think I can justify equating Senjutsu to SM.

2. If he's bad at Senjutsu (which equates to being bad at using SM using the above logic) then how did he attain a perfect version of the technique in a near instant during his first combat application of the technique ALL WHILE MOVING? I honestly don't care how long he can maintain the technique or what jutsu he can manage while keeping it activated. If he can achieve a perfect version in a near instant combat application, none of that matters because he can just re-attain it in an instant once it wears off.

Even if I assume you are right that he cannot maintain the form for long, he still shows mastery of the technique on at least 3 other levels that would logically make him proficient at the technique.

I think we need to get some concepts clear. Senjutsu is not Sage Mode, nor viceversa.

You're right when saying that Sage Mode is a 'form' of Senjutsu, but even I wouldn't call like that. I would prefer to tell that Sage Mode is an 'application' of Senjutsu knowledge. More specifically, it is the balance of ratios of Natural, Spiritual and Physical Energy inside the Shinobi, AFTER absorbing Natural Energy from the envirovment. In the other hand, Senjutsu is the ability to manipulate and use Natural Energy, no more, no less (and Taijutsu is the ability to manipulate stamina through the body, Ninjutsu is the ability to manipulate and project chakra to the envirovment, Genjutsu is the ability to alter the target's cognitive system).

Senjutsu chakra is just chakra with natural energy molded (manga fact, you have to look into Naruto's training to know about this), because chakra = physical + spiritual energy, by transitivity, senjutsu chakra = physical + spiritual + natural energy, and in order to use the senjutsu chakra, the user has to have mastery over Senjutsu (manipulation of natural energy). This is quite an straightforward definition that I was able to get from Naruto's uses of natural energy in Pain's battle.

Going back to the rebuttal:

How was Minato able to manifest "Sage Mode" in almost an instant time?

As I said earlier, there is a conceptual difference between Senjutsu and Sage Mode. You can attain Sage Mode with lesser Natural Energy, because Sage Mode is "balance". So, if you use "less chakra" (less physical and spiritual energy), you can naturally need to absorb "less natural energy" to reach the balance needed for Sage Mode. Being a Perfect Sage doesn't have anything to do with the amount of absorbed natural energy, it has to do with the balance. Minato has less chakra reserves, so it's obvious that he would take way less time to awake Sage Mode, but the difference is radical: Has he gathers less natural energy, then the amount of time in Sage Mode also would be lesser, AND the amount of techniques he can do would be way more limited.

I mean, do you remember that Pain detected that Naruto's Sage Mode power decreased during battle? This is enough proof to put soundness in my point.

Finally... the thing about Minato using Sage Mode while moving... I think you have to consider that natural energy doesn't necesarily disperses after absorbing it. Furthermore... Minato has been quiet for a long time during the war, after Naruto used Sage Mode. He isn't always moving. Naruto now, even with his reserves, he is able to awake Sage Mode in a matter of seconds. You should imagine that Minato should be even faster gathering energy due the experience and complexity of his techniques.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

There is more to utilizing Senjustu in combat other then just being able to maintain a human appearance.

Minato is able to maintain his human form a sign of chakra control.
Jiraiya has problems maintaining the balance yet,while in the mode he has little to no problems with executing Senpou techniques themselves.

Minato has the opposite problem where he has problem executing the justu because he has no experience in combat.
Which means he can't use all the increased strength,speed and reflexes in that mode to its fullest potential.Forget about him using frog kata anytime soon (A style of senjustu combat)


Kishi is the author he knows what he is doing so,stop trying to poke holes.....there not here

 

[Floydical]

That's a little detail IMO... Maybe he managed to gather some Natural energy while he was still and quickly balanced it to get in SM...
If we look from the incident's perspective, it's not a big deal... First, acknowledge what happened and then ponder every detail how it may have happened...

Usually, people go for the course's perspective meaning, they follow the series of events and if some event doesn't fit there correctly, they mark it as a blunder...



Nope, Senjutsu is application of SM...
This might be the problem in understanding,
Minato does knead Natural energy and balance it with his Chakra perfectly, but the amount isn't sufficient enough to perform various Senjutsu, that's why his SM lasted only for a Rasengan...

But its not as if Rasengan is a senjutsu technique.... rather he used a Senjutsu enhanced Rasengan, ie a SM rasengan. When he talks about efficiency with Senjutsu, he is directly referring to his use of SM. He even refers to the duration and ease of entering the mode, to him SM IS his Senjutsu.

I think we need to get some concepts clear. Senjutsu is not Sage Mode, nor viceversa.

You're right when saying that Sage Mode is a 'form' of Senjutsu, but even I wouldn't call like that. I would prefer to tell that Sage Mode is an 'application' of Senjutsu knowledge. More specifically, it is the balance of ratios of Natural, Spiritual and Physical Energy inside the Shinobi, AFTER absorbing Natural Energy from the envirovment. In the other hand, Senjutsu is the ability to manipulate and use Natural Energy, no more, no less (and Taijutsu is the ability to manipulate stamina through the body, Ninjutsu is the ability to manipulate and project chakra to the envirovment, Genjutsu is the ability to alter the target's cognitive system).

Senjutsu chakra is just chakra with natural energy molded (manga fact, you have to look into Naruto's training to know about this), because chakra = physical + spiritual energy, by transitivity, senjutsu chakra = physical + spiritual + natural energy, and in order to use the senjutsu chakra, the user has to have mastery over Senjutsu (manipulation of natural energy). This is quite an straightforward definition that I was able to get from Naruto's uses of natural energy in Pain's battle.

Going back to the rebuttal:

How was Minato able to manifest "Sage Mode" in almost an instant time?

As I said earlier, there is a conceptual difference between Senjutsu and Sage Mode. You can attain Sage Mode with lesser Natural Energy, because Sage Mode is "balance". So, if you use "less chakra" (less physical and spiritual energy), you can naturally need to absorb "less natural energy" to reach the balance needed for Sage Mode. Being a Perfect Sage doesn't have anything to do with the amount of absorbed natural energy, it has to do with the balance. Minato has less chakra reserves, so it's obvious that he would take way less time to awake Sage Mode, but the difference is radical: Has he gathers less natural energy, then the amount of time in Sage Mode also would be lesser, AND the amount of techniques he can do would be way more limited.

I mean, do you remember that Pain detected that Naruto's Sage Mode power decreased during battle? This is enough proof to put soundness in my point.

Finally... the thing about Minato using Sage Mode while moving... I think you have to consider that natural energy doesn't necesarily disperses after absorbing it. Furthermore... Minato has been quiet for a long time during the war, after Naruto used Sage Mode. He isn't always moving. Naruto now, even with his reserves, he is able to awake Sage Mode in a matter of seconds. You should imagine that Minato should be even faster gathering energy due the experience and complexity of his techniques.

Your point is understood. Your saying that Minato has less chakra therefore it takes less time and effort for him to achieve perfect SM. But balancing said chakras is the key to mastering SM. Clearly if Minato can balance his chakras with natural energy while not turning into a frog, he has mastered the technique. And don't tell me that when he says he's not good at Senjutsu he's actually referring to something other than SM. As I said above, when he was referring to his form of Senjutsu, he directly referenced SM by noting duration of the effect and the effort required to amass said chakra.

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a very valid argument, but what you are assuming is that when Minato says he is bad at Senjutsu, he is not directly referring to his use of SM. Considering he directly referenced his usage of SM while talking about his lack of proficiency with Senjutsu.... I think its safe to assume that to him Senjutsu equates to SM.

 

[thegame]

I agree, it's ridicules. What is worse, is that it was completely meaningless to give him sage mode in the first place. It didn't matter at all. I guess Kishi had a temporary brain bleeding...

 

[cptenn94]

But its not as if Rasengan is a senjutsu technique.... rather he used a Senjutsu enhanced Rasengan, ie a SM rasengan. When he talks about efficiency with Senjutsu, he is directly referring to his use of SM. He even refers to the duration and ease of entering the mode, to him SM IS his Senjutsu.



Your point is understood. Your saying that Minato has less chakra therefore it takes less time and effort for him to achieve perfect SM. But balancing said chakras is the key to mastering SM. Clearly if Minato can balance his chakras with natural energy while not turning into a frog, he has mastered the technique. And don't tell me that when he says he's not good at Senjutsu he's actually referring to something other than SM. As I said above, when he was referring to his form of Senjutsu, he directly referenced SM by noting duration of the effect and the effort required to amass said chakra.

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a very valid argument, but what you are assuming is that when Minato says he is bad at Senjutsu, he is not directly referring to his use of SM. Considering he directly referenced his usage of SM while talking about his lack of proficiency with Senjutsu.... I think its safe to assume that to him Senjutsu equates to SM.

I agree that sage mode and senjutsu are the same things and not different.

However. He is capable of balanceing his chakra with natural energy. He is not good at doing that quickly, and maintaining it for long.

Think of it like this.


You have 2 people. Both can build a 10 layer high stack of cards that looks the same. One can do it quickly and get it to last longer because he has trained doing it more. The other can do it, but it takes him longer than the other, and he cannot get it to stay up for long, because he has not done it much.

Naruto has already proven long ago, that you can train to enter sage mode faster, and keep it active longer.

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Naruto had already had a couple days or so of useing sage mode in combat(training in frog fu) before he fought pain.

If minato had just finished the balanceing training(where naruto entered sage mode the first time), then it would make sense that he cant maintain it longer, and is not good at makeing it.

You go try to do something complex and hard to do that you only did once or a few times, and tell me how awesome you are at it. You wont be.


I would be willing to guess that being able to maintain sage mode, would have to do with holding on the the energy(as according to pain at least, it seems sage mode can weaken in strength), while stopping for a sec to absorb a bit here and there.(now this is speculation on stuff we dont know much about.)


Im sorry if you read my previous abomination of a textwall. And im glad to see you are engageing in debate(something many people dont do on the base....people seem to just be "my way or the highway" without any diologue. Engaging in debate does not mean you will change your mind or your opinion. It just means you accept the points and facts regardless of whether or not they suite your opinion.

Have a good day though!

 

[schmeckie]

gotta love minato fans arguing against 100% straight up manga facts that minato sucks at SM, which is why he never used it when he was alive especially

 

[Jako98146]

Also, Minato performed SM without any effort. Jiraiya had to stand still until he transformed, Naruto has to sit down and do a meditation-like action to perform it, and Minato can just activate it at will...And he's bad at it?

 

[Mr Hiru]

But its not as if Rasengan is a senjutsu technique.... rather he used a Senjutsu enhanced Rasengan, ie a SM rasengan. When he talks about efficiency with Senjutsu, he is directly referring to his use of SM. He even refers to the duration and ease of entering the mode, to him SM IS his Senjutsu.



Your point is understood. Your saying that Minato has less chakra therefore it takes less time and effort for him to achieve perfect SM. But balancing said chakras is the key to mastering SM. Clearly if Minato can balance his chakras with natural energy while not turning into a frog, he has mastered the technique. And don't tell me that when he says he's not good at Senjutsu he's actually referring to something other than SM. As I said above, when he was referring to his form of Senjutsu, he directly referenced SM by noting duration of the effect and the effort required to amass said chakra.

Don't get me wrong, I think you have a very valid argument, but what you are assuming is that when Minato says he is bad at Senjutsu, he is not directly referring to his use of SM. Considering he directly referenced his usage of SM while talking about his lack of proficiency with Senjutsu.... I think its safe to assume that to him Senjutsu equates to SM.

It is exactly the contrary. I separated the concepts because I'm sure he was referring to the ability to absorb natural energy, mold/knead it and mantain it.

If he is not fast doing that with natural energy, then he isn't good enough in every Senjutsu moves.

Absorbing the natural energy is the first step of Senjutsu, and by transitivity, Sage Mode. It's the basics, and he already told that he is slow at mantaining the senjutsu chakra.

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A => B
B => C
Ergo, A => C

I can't be more explicit than that. These are the reasons of why Naruto surpassed him.

Take in mind... Minato took 3 years to create and master the Rasengan, Naruto took only 3 weeks.

 

[rollin]

That scan actually backs up minato always having sage mode
Jiraiya was imperfect but could fight with it and minato perfected it but couldn't use it very long
Naruto managed both
I wonder if minato could fight with imperfect sage mode