DSM Kabuto VS EMS Sasuke

[miromiro]

Sasuke wins extremely high difficulty.

 

[KidGamer65]

So basically you are agreeing with me.. And your statement here is false since Hashirama did encounter a third slash.

No, that statement only refers to the slash Hashirama had to dodge himself.

First one was blocked.

Second one wasn't coming for him.

Third one was evaded.

He evaded it once, and that's it.

What feats do you need, its the shockwave swung that travels faster then the actual sword swung.

Point?

1. Hashirama was able to wield a hand sign when the sword was swung already

Irrelevant. We are talking about Kabuto, who needs to evade it, not dodge it.

2. Tsuade already tried to gather chakra, who also wield hand signs, when the sword was swung down at them. Some Gokages weren't ready to give up[

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Same as above.

Wheres the speculation?
Viz clarifies

You are speculating that they managed to avoid PS slashes. That's what you are speculating.

Every character shown encountering it did.

Gokage weren't shown doing anything. Just more of your speculation.

Hashirama only evaded one, and he can keep up with people far faster than Kabuto, so giving him that feat is useless.

How is that speculation? What land animal moves faster on water?

The speculation is it being able to move faster than any sea animal.

Manda II size means nothing as Kabuto drug this being to counterpart/better then the original Manda. Far better senses will be detected and easily maneuver most of its body underground to avoid a lethal hit

Far better senses isn't an argument. Telling me that Manda II>Manda I when it comes to senses doesn't give you a valid point. Either bring feats to prove that it will be able to do so before the slash hits it or don't bother at all.

Or maybe you don't understand how big Manda II is?

Turtle Island Spikes compare to humans[

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Turtle Island Spikes compare to Buijuu (study enough to hold the weight of Buijuu) [

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Turtle Island Spikes, roaming by Manda II, half of its body [

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What makes PS comparable to an island, that can hold multiple full Buijuu, by its scaling.

PS already dwarfs the Myojinmon Gates that held the Juubi.

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And those are all Bijuu sized right there.

PS is near the Juubi's size minus the tails.

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Size is irrelevant anyway. Manda gets bisected and that's that. You have no evidence towards the contrary.

Can you even prove Manda II is superior Manda I?

I dont see how can I change a bias opinion into a unbias opinion.

All of this comes with common sense. Moukton isn't able to produce shockwaves like PS can but it is very useful in blocking the the path. And I know you don't believe the jaws of wood dragon is more powerful then Manda II[

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].

Manda II is already stated and shown to be stronger than Manda in every way, terrible analogy.

lol, here we go. Not agreeing with your BS speculation=/=Me being bias. Sorry pal. Come with arguments that have valid evidence or don't come at all.

"Better senses let it evade all attacks"

"Size lets it block all attacks"

These aren't forms of evidence. Period. Just you stating your bias opinion.

That isn't a PS blade as you can clearly see. You can also clearly see on the next page that Madara leveled up to PS AFTER the clash. Once again, you have no point.

ABC is can applied here reasonably.

No, its not applied here reasonably, you are just making flawed comparisons as usual.

Here we go again.. Your doing this again. Once again THOSE snakes, called Hidden Snakes aren't being connected to the user body. They are able to unleash through their user body, explained by Kishimoto. They are not actually inside the users, waiting to be used. [

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].

No proof that they are Hidden Snakes. No evidence either. Manga shows them to be far different from the average snake anyway.

Now you already stated you are only going by your personal interpretation with no evidence to back up the ability of Kabuto. Your interpretation from here hold no water with evidence to claim it is true.

Now lets look at the beginning of the fight.[1]. Already your interpretation is flawed. Kabuto hides his face and had the snakes look at the brothers instead. In your case if the snakes are the same being as Kabuto, Genjutsu will still work on him. Then[2]. Sasuke tells Itachi to watch out for those snakes. The context switches from Kabuto preventing getting hit from jutsu to Sasuke telling Itachi about the snakes, Kabuto is using to counter. Kabuto has no such feats to sense things through temperature and also sense of smell passing through his mouth, which Sasuke explains that the snakes can do. Sasuke questions the Snakes being bigger, something unoriginal to his knowledge. Then[3]. Once Kabuto use the snakes to attack, Sasuke thought Kabuto was under the hood, which he ended up shocked that he wasn't. In your interpretation all of it should be Kabuto and no one should be surprise when capture Kabuto[4].

Not seeing how any of this disproves my claims.

Last point. When Kabuto was talking, no lip movement was involved from the snake[5]. All you would actually read HISS sound effects.

Lol, this means nothing. This doesn't change the fact that when he sloughed off his skin it was stated that KABUTO was the one doing it. It was shown that they couldn't locate the real KABUTO. Not his summoned snakes.

Thats contradicting statement how they looking for Kabuto when they are holding Kabuto.

Uh, no its not. Cause its shown that Kabuto got away.

ALWAYS is a wrong statement, which I will get back up once again. The purpose of Hidden snakes comes in various purposes. Mainly Biting[1] to constriction[2] (Stated in Databook and scans I am linking).

Back to ALWAYS STAY and NEVER LEAVE. That is incorrect[1>2>3].

This is irrelevant either way.


Instead of relying on shaky evidence why don't you bring definitive proof that Kabuto can do what you claim he can do to Manda II? Not even gonna bother with this point until I see some real evidence and not the usual nonsense.

 

[Gaara Of The Death]

Kabuto is anti-Uchiha so h takes it high-dif.​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

No, that statement only refers to the slash Hashirama had to dodge himself.

First one was blocked.

Second one wasn't coming for him.

Third one was evaded.

He evaded it once, and that's it.

I don't know where you are going with, by separating "dodging" and "evading" in context, and why its important.

Point?

Defend,parry, and counter before it gets destructive.

Irrelevant. We are talking about Kabuto, who needs to evade it, not dodge it.

.....

You are speculating that they managed to avoid PS slashes. That's what you are speculating.

Well I can't state that they didn't either, can I? But lets say they didn't avoid PS. What does this ending result tell you, personally?

Gokage weren't shown doing anything. Just more of your speculation.

Hashirama only evaded one, and he can keep up with people far faster than Kabuto, so giving him that feat is useless.

What am I speculating? They fought Madara off screen, fact.[

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][

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The speculation is it being able to move faster than any sea animal.

Ok, stating "any" was an exaggeration. But Motoi stated something is coming rapidly, when Manda II is not even a sea monster says alot.

Far better senses isn't an argument. Telling me that Manda II>Manda I when it comes to senses doesn't give you a valid point. Either bring feats to prove that it will be able to do so before the slash hits it or don't bother at all.

Whats feats needs be shown, when its all about distance role play.

PS already dwarfs the Myojinmon Gates that held the Juubi.

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And those are all Bijuu sized right there.

PS is near the Juubi's size minus the tails.

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1. Dwarfs? What kind of scaling is that? You can literally draw a straight line from their distance, from their height.[

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2. How:

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3. And how does this conclude being bigger or about the same scale as the Turtle Island.

Size is irrelevant anyway. Manda gets bisected and that's that. You have no evidence towards the contrary.

What do you mean no evidence? Kabuto's contract summon can act as S/T. That fact that he was able to start Manda II underwater, when he needed to fly for his destination, and also took advantage of reverse summon[

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], shows what distance can favor Kabuto to use Manda II. In fact he can Manda II start coming from underground, since Kabuto knows how to perform Doton: Moguragakure.

Manda II is already stated and shown to be stronger than Manda in every way, terrible analogy.

lol, here we go. Not agreeing with your BS speculation=/=Me being bias. Sorry pal. Come with arguments that have valid evidence or don't come at all.

"Better senses let it evade all attacks"

"Size lets it block all attacks"

These aren't forms of evidence. Period. Just you stating your bias opinion.

1.Never said better senses will evade all attack, I stated it can help predicti the sword movement and acting to parry it's swing.
2. What do you mean all? Its only a slash that is swung by an entity, your exaggerating my claims. I am clearly rationalizing that the size of Manda II can do as much as a smaller scale Mokuton was able to do. Since it does have more power then a Mokuton.

And please dont bring up Mokuton being even with PS strength, as it doesnt say much of an act of parry.

That isn't a PS blade as you can clearly see. You can also clearly see on the next page that Madara leveled up to PS AFTER the clash. Once again, you have no point.

4

It doesn't matter what was used as Susanoo is much harder then Mokuton. PS can easily slash through Mokuton, but Mokuton scaling can also be use to hold the sword or the arm of Susanoo via parrying. That was my point, that it doesn't take much strength feat like Mokuton to parry it, and especially from Manda II size.

No, its not applied here reasonably, you are just making flawed comparisons as usual.

How is it flawed?

1. PS power can rival Buijuu's.

2. Manda II can logically and reasonably man handle/wrestle with a Buijuu.

3. Full intent defeat[

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][

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]. Full intent defeat[

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][

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]

4.Snakes power come from its Constriction, which he beat things over their size. Manda II has limbs on top of it.

No proof that they are Hidden Snakes. No evidence either.

Lol what.. No extra snakes appearing[

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]. extra snakes appearing[

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][

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]. Same snakes used against Anko[

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]

Manga shows them to be far different from the average snake anyway.

Thats because Snake summons work like Toad summons and other summonings, which words through the amount of chakra used during the summoning determines how powerful the summoned creature can be.

Kishimoto explains this. Example, here is his description on Binding Snake Glare Spell: "Snakes summoned by this technique are on a whole other level in terms of intelligence and strength, compared to normal summons."

Compare to Hidden Snakes "This attack comes in many variations, from biting to constriction. In addition, as those snakes are summoned animals, they are far stronger and more cunning than regular ones, thanks to which they can effectively be employed for capture by entwining around the enemy."

Another example, Is Orochimaru with Senju DNA can produce[

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Not seeing how any of this disproves my claims.

It completely debunks your interpretation as the context of the snakes and its feats were separated from the context of talking about Kabuto.

Lol, this means nothing. This doesn't change the fact that when he sloughed off his skin it was stated that KABUTO was the one doing it. It was shown that they couldn't locate the real KABUTO. Not his summoned snakes.

No both Kabuto and the snakes were doing it, as its going by Kabuto's command, like how Summon Snakes function.

Kabuto already shown his personally appearance of skin sloughing[

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].

Sasuke was making the assumption that he is as if he was comparing him to Orochimaru[

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].

Uh, no its not. Cause its shown that Kabuto got away.

Statement still a contradiction. If he got away, then the snakes Itachi is holding, is not Kabuto.

This is irrelevant either way.

Yes it is. It debunks your premise of your statement. Thats the evidence that Hidden Snakes can move out of the body, from the summoner.

Instead of relying on shaky evidence why don't you bring definitive proof that Kabuto can do what you claim he can do to Manda II? Not even gonna bother with this point until I see some real evidence and not the usual nonsense.

I am giving you proof. You are trying to make my proof irreverent, to make them invalid. I have backed up the claims that Kabuto controlling Manda II

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will be the same as controlling his Hidden Snakes

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[KidGamer65]

I don't know where you are going with, by separating "dodging" and "evading" in context, and why its important.

I didn't separate them. I used two different words that mean the same thing.

Defend,parry, and counter before it gets destructive.

Not even sure what that has to do with the shockwave getting stronger, but of course you don't have the feats for any of your claims.

.....

That was an error. I meant that he needs to evade it, not block it.

Well I can't state that they didn't either, can I? But lets say they didn't avoid PS. What does this ending result tell you, personally?

I'm not going to say anything on this point. I'm just going to say that you are speculating. I'm not going to join you in your speculation. Its dumb to assume they were out there evading PS slashes when they were all about to die the moment it was used in the first place. Not adding anymore on this point till you stop speculating.

What am I speculating? They fought Madara off screen, fact.[

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][

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Them avoiding PS slashes isn't fact. Its speculation.

Ok, stating "any" was an exaggeration. But Motoi stated something is coming rapidly, when Manda II is not even a sea monster says alot.

Doesn't say enough.

Whats feats needs be shown, when its all about distance role play.

You need to show

1. Dwarfs? What kind of scaling is that? You can literally draw a straight line from their distance, from their height.[

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What the hell are you even doing? The Myojinmon Gates are the 10 obvious GATES on the scan. Not the Bijuu Dama tree.

2. How:

-Hachibi is near the size of the Juubi's head.

-Those Gates are the same size as the Juubi's head.

3. And how does this conclude being bigger or about the same scale as the Turtle Island.

Bijuu compared to PS are smaller than Bijuu compared to Turtle Island. But size is irrelevant, so I'm not going to continue with this point.

What do you mean no evidence? Kabuto's contract summon can act as S/T. That fact that he was able to start Manda II underwater, when he needed to fly for his destination, and also took advantage of reverse summon[

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], shows what distance can favor Kabuto to use Manda II. In fact he can Manda II start coming from underground, since Kabuto knows how to perform Doton: Moguragakure.

1.Never said better senses will evade all attack, I stated it can help predicti the sword movement and acting to parry it's swing.

Lol, and I see no feats.

2. What do you mean all? Its only a slash that is swung by an entity, your exaggerating my claims. I am clearly rationalizing that the size of Manda II can do as much as a smaller scale Mokuton was able to do. Since it does have more power then a Mokuton.

Mokuton Hands aren't the same as a giant snake. Mokuton Hands catching PS blade doesn't mean that Manda II will do the same with its mouth. Sorry pal.

By your logic since Naruto can block a sword by clapping his hands in between it. Ay can do the same with this mouth cause he's stronger....Just stop.

And please dont bring up Mokuton being even with PS strength, as it doesnt say much of an act of parry.

Lol, what? Strength has nothing to do with parrying an attack? Smh....

It doesn't matter what was used as Susanoo is much harder then Mokuton. PS can easily slash through Mokuton, but Mokuton scaling can also be use to hold the sword or the arm of Susanoo via parrying. That was my point, that it doesn't take much strength feat like Mokuton to parry it, and especially from Manda II size.

Irrelevant. Mokuton is NOT Manda II. Mokujin being fast and strong enough to block PS's arm doesn't mean that Manda II will be fast or strong enough to block or evade the attack. Even if I agreed with this "It'll catch it in its mouth or with its hand" bullshit you are spouting, he swings the other blade just like he did against Hashirama, and Manda dies.

How is it flawed?

1. PS power can rival Buijuu's.

PS rivals the Bijuu in destructive power. Not overall power. Don't try and twist this to fit your wanked image of Manda II.

2. Manda II can logically and reasonably man handle/wrestle with a Buijuu.

Irrelevant. Manda II is only going to beat a Bijuu in a physical contest. If it uses any form of Bijuu Dama Manda dies in a heartbeat.

3. Full intent defeat[

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][

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]. Full intent defeat[

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][

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]

Irrelevant. Irrelevant.

4.Snakes power come from its Constriction, which he beat things over their size. Manda II has limbs on top of it.

Its limbs are pathetically small. Not even worth mentioning.

Lol what.. No extra snakes appearing[

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]. extra snakes appearing[

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][

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]. Same snakes used against Anko[

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]



Thats because Snake summons work like Toad summons and other summonings, which words through the amount of chakra used during the summoning determines how powerful the summoned creature can be.

Kishimoto explains this. Example, here is his description on Binding Snake Glare Spell: "Snakes summoned by this technique are on a whole other level in terms of intelligence and strength, compared to normal summons."

Compare to Hidden Snakes "This attack comes in many variations, from biting to constriction. In addition, as those snakes are summoned animals, they are far stronger and more cunning than regular ones, thanks to which they can effectively be employed for capture by entwining around the enemy."

Another example, Is Orochimaru with Senju DNA can produce[

You must be registered for see links

]



It completely debunks your interpretation as the context of the snakes and its feats were separated from the context of talking about Kabuto.



No both Kabuto and the snakes were doing it, as its going by Kabuto's command, like how Summon Snakes function.

Kabuto already shown his personally appearance of skin sloughing[

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].

Sasuke was making the assumption that he is as if he was comparing him to Orochimaru[

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].




Statement still a contradiction. If he got away, then the snakes Itachi is holding, is not Kabuto.



Yes it is. It debunks your premise of your statement. Thats the evidence that Hidden Snakes can move out of the body, from the summoner.



I am giving you proof. You are trying to make my proof irreverent, to make them invalid. I have backed up the claims that Kabuto controlling Manda II

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will be the same as controlling his Hidden Snakes

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Not even gonna bother with the rest. Even if Manda II is buffed, you still don't have the feats to say it can tangle with PS, so it dies.

 

[UchihaNagashi]

Spoiler

I didn't separate them. I used two different words that mean the same thing.


Not even sure what that has to do with the shockwave getting stronger, but of course you don't have the feats for any of your claims.




That was an error. I meant that he needs to evade it, not block it.




I'm not going to say anything on this point. I'm just going to say that you are speculating. I'm not going to join you in your speculation. Its dumb to assume they were out there evading PS slashes when they were all about to die the moment it was used in the first place. Not adding anymore on this point till you stop speculating.




Them avoiding PS slashes isn't fact. Its speculation.




Doesn't say enough.




You need to show



What the hell are you even doing? The Myojinmon Gates are the 10 obvious GATES on the scan. Not the Bijuu Dama tree.


-Hachibi is near the size of the Juubi's head.

-Those Gates are the same size as the Juubi's head.



Bijuu compared to PS are smaller than Bijuu compared to Turtle Island. But size is irrelevant, so I'm not going to continue with this point.









Lol, and I see no feats.



Mokuton Hands aren't the same as a giant snake. Mokuton Hands catching PS blade doesn't mean that Manda II will do the same with its mouth. Sorry pal.

By your logic since Naruto can block a sword by clapping his hands in between it. Ay can do the same with this mouth cause he's stronger....Just stop.



Lol, what? Strength has nothing to do with parrying an attack? Smh....





Irrelevant. Mokuton is NOT Manda II. Mokujin being fast and strong enough to block PS's arm doesn't mean that Manda II will be fast or strong enough to block or evade the attack. Even if I agreed with this "It'll catch it in its mouth or with its hand" bullshit you are spouting, he swings the other blade just like he did against Hashirama, and Manda dies.




PS rivals the Bijuu in destructive power. Not overall power. Don't try and twist this to fit your wanked image of Manda II.



Irrelevant. Manda II is only going to beat a Bijuu in a physical contest. If it uses any form of Bijuu Dama Manda dies in a heartbeat.



Irrelevant. Irrelevant.



Its limbs are pathetically small. Not even worth mentioning.



Not even gonna bother with the rest. Even if Manda II is buffed, you still don't have the feats to say it can tangle with PS, so it dies.

I'm not fully aware of the feats of this debate nor thread, but I may remember you once stating that Madara's feats for PS can't be used for Sasuke due to the size difference as the biggest factor. A full Kurama was as big as PS, half of it (50& Kurama) is naturally half as big as normal Kurama. The Susano'o of the latest version Sasuke wields is as big as the half, meaning it's half PS size.

Noting how enormous Manda the second is, dwarfing even enormous Bijū like Hachibi, which is the same size as half of Kurama, which then is as big as Sasuke's Susano'o I don't see Manda losing in at least physical contest.

Not to mention it's agility is top notch (snake) and advanced even further.​

 

[slimreaper]

according to this thread manda 2 is top 5

 

[AGoodBoy]

I'm not fully aware of the feats of this debate nor thread, but I may remember you once stating that Madara's feats for PS can't be used for Sasuke due to the size difference as the biggest factor. A full Kurama was as big as PS, half of it (50& Kurama) is naturally half as big as normal Kurama. The Susano'o of the latest version Sasuke wields is as big as the half, meaning it's half PS size.

Noting how enormous Manda the second is, dwarfing even enormous Bijū like Hachibi, which is the same size as half of Kurama, which then is as big as Sasuke's Susano'o I don't see Manda losing in at least physical contest.

Not to mention it's agility is top notch (snake) and advanced even further.​

two correction;
1) Madara's PS was actually bigger than full sized kurama.
2) It was sasuke's V3(unarmored) susano'o that was the size of 50% kurama. His PS is a lot bigger than that.

 

[Vicen]

What the **** am I reading? :| Legged Susano'o steps on Kabuto
l

 

[AlphaScythian]

I give it to Sasuke.
PS grant him extreme range advantage where both white rage or sound genjutsu are ineffective.
Destructive capabilities of PS combined with enton would sure end kabuto.

 

[shelke]

Sasuke's V3 Susano'o produced a pretty big shock-wave to cut through a very large portion of the god tree. With intel, the orb is deflected back using a Simple arrow. Distracted, Kabuto is shown to be pinned by arrows, a few Enton arrows would distract and pin his tail again. Non-debatable.

Heat from the Enton would also prevent from the further use of any Inorganic Transmigration as it made the cave revert back to its original state. Enton Sword burns his insides and Magatama would prove to be too much for him. He cannot hide, nor does he have the ability to sense ability-built-ups, he can be forced to use Oral Rebirth - thus wasting a ton of Senjutsu Charka - with Amaterasu easily as well.

Heat also disturbs Pressure Waves nicely, but despite the speculation Sasuke can easily use his eyes to cast Amaterasu on Kabuto again as they were free to use their Doujutsus. V3 can also push the waves back easily. EMS Sasuke wins Mid Difference at the worse. PS or V4 isn't needed.

 

[WolfHaley]

Sasuke can overcome liquification as he is sasuke

Sasuke can overcome genjutsu as he is sasuke

Sasuke can overcome Edo Tensei as he is Sasuke

 

[slimreaper]

Sasuke can overcome liquification as he is sasuke

Sasuke can overcome genjutsu as he is sasuke

Sasuke can overcome Edo Tensei as he is Sasuke

Liquification:

Spoiler

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Genjutsu:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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[adeshina365]

For those that are curious,

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Spoiler

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[WolfHaley]

Let's just ignore that Kabuto's liquification is not only improved, but also enhanced by Senjutsu chakra.

The masters of Sasuke's instruments are out in droves tonight.

 

[shelke]

^ Let's not forget that Amaterasu destroys Natural Energy. He is vapourized by heat alone.

 

[WolfHaley]

If that were the case then it would've been used on Madara when he had sage mode. It would've been used on the Juubi's Jinchuriki.

 

[UchihaNagashi]

two correction;
1) Madara's PS was actually bigger than full sized kurama.
2) It was sasuke's V3(unarmored) susano'o that was the size of 50% kurama. His PS is a lot bigger than that.

The Susano'o armor they coat the with the Bijū, is undoubtedly less dense than normal Susano'o. It could be just a stretched version, unless you honestly believe their density is the same. Look the size of PS. Look at the size of normal Kurama. Regular Kurama dwarfs mountains, yet PS is just about the size of it. And yes, I'm talking about the Madara's one.

Not to mention, Madara never showed a PS just next to Kurama, unless you meant V4. However, the density is still a factor.

^ Let's not forget that Amaterasu destroys Natural Energy. He is vapourized by heat alone.

What? :|​

 

[shelke]

If that were the case then it would've been used on Madara when he had sage mode. It would've been used on the Juubi's Jinchuriki.

Madara has absorption techs. Juubi's Jins cancel out Ninjutsu. Inorganic Transmigration used by Kabuto on the cave was on a wide scale. The Heat from such a small area of Amaterasu completely negated NE and reverted the cave back to its original state. Kabuto mentions it quite explicitly.

@UchihaNagashi

Refer to the Inorganic Transmigration part of my post.

 

[Bronze]

@UchihaNagashi: Half of unstabalized PS was the size of 100% Kurama [

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]. So full unstabalized PS would be twice the size of 100% Kurama. With that being said, fully stabilized PS would be little twice bigger than 100% Kurama.

---

I don't understand why some think Sasuke's PS is same sized as Madara's. He could barely cover Bijuu mode. He does not have same supply of Chakra, to produce same sized PS to that of Madara's. Conclusion being, his attacks will have less range as well. So Manda II will defiantly be longer than Sasuke's PS.​