Ending the debate Hiruzen vs Orochimaru

omarsen · Feb 23, 2014

I came across this thread.

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Kirikoe said:
Orochimaru could have.. he got hiruzen competely by surprise.. hiruzen should have been more wary and vigilant

Also people complaining that it was a sneak attack doesnt change the fact that orochimaru could have killed hiruzen without a single jutsu.. sneak attacks are the essence of a ninja.. the art of stealth so dont complain

Kirikoe said:
the 3 images posted by SMD shoes otherwise.. orochimaru clearly could have killed him at any time with the kunai but he didnt

Umari Senju said:
I actually agree. You are spot on with this comment. The only reason it didn't go down that way is because it would have been boring to read lol.

Couldn't help it

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So guys lets end the Hiruzen vs orochimaru debate once and for all, I will start from the beginning till the end.

This fight takes place in part 1 of course.

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The Invasion

As you can see in these scans below, Hiruzen did know that it was a invasion from the hidden sand village(He had no idea it was orochimaru at first)
These pictures clearly shows that everybody in the arena knew whats up.

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Here as you can see the guards are trying to reach and protect Hiruzen.

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Everybody was suprised that Hiruzen was captured

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But The truth is. Hiruzen was captured, due to not putting up any resistance

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Hiruzen didn't put up any fight.

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As you can see Hiruzen still remained calm during the entire time, and let himself be captured, because he wanted to negotiation and avoid a war against "The sang village"

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Hiruzen stating that its not over.

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Here Orochimaru is removing the "fake mask" with his hand where he is holding the Kunai- Hiruzen could escape but he didn't, so saying that Orochimaru was able to kill him with Kunai is pathetic.

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The Fight

Let me begin with the edo's Hashirama & Tobirama.
Here Tobirama stating that, Orochimaru brought them back "Almost full power" which means around 80% of their full power. (That is when they met Sasuke)

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When Orochimaru did summon them during his Battle against Hiruzen. They were at 30-40% power.

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30-40% Edo Hashirama & Tobirama still stomp

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"Of all people for him to summon these two" Orochimaru couldn't summon anybody that were more powerful than Hashirama+Tobirama.

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Before even the fight begin, Hiruzen was confident that he could take on Orochimari 1vs1 alone

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When Orochimaru did summon Hashirama + Tobirama, Hiruzen was still confident and stated that he was going to defeat them.

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Sealing Orochimaru, the Semi-immortal

Everybody thought that Sasuke did kill Orochimaru

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Everybody thought that Itachi sealed the "Original" Orochimaru.

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These four have the "Curse Mark" and there were probably hundrends of people with the curse mark

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Conclusion

Hiruzen did win the fight, unless you are saying that Hiruzen needs to go and clear the entire narutoverse with people who got curse mark. If Hiruzen did seal Orochimaru soul or not. Orochimaru would have respawned somewhere else.

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Edit: Did post this my mistake before finishing everything. sorry about that

HiddenSound · Feb 23, 2014

Orochimaru won the battle.
He lost the war.
It is that simple.

Deadai · Feb 23, 2014

It was in enclosed area neither side had assistance (Don't even bring up ET) what is there to debate?
Orochimaru survived due to Hiruzen not having the power to completely seal him away.
It's a close match leaning twords Orochimaru taking the victory.

Joker · Feb 23, 2014

Going back to Hiruzen's old battle with Orochimaru; everyone seems to think the latter admitted inferiority to the old weasel. That's really not the case; being Hiruzen's student Orochimaru is very familiar with his fighting style; but the same case can't be said for Hiruzen due to Orochimaru's defection and development to new Jutsu.
Now people would like to use the following scan as proof; [

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Orochimaru's mentioning that if Hiruzen was ten years younger he would've been able to completely pull out his soul with the Shiki Fuujin.
Now don't get it twisted Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen the whole battle and even WANTED to see the Shiki Fuujin: [

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Not only that; but the latter also had plenty of times to kill the man during battle; but simply didn't because that would ruin the "fun" ; [

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Now; I hope I made it clear; Orochimaru > Hiruzen. Don't get it twisted.

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Now that I put that to rest; let me go take a shower; dueces.

dark legion · Feb 23, 2014

I started to Read it ... but u see .... there are so many wonderful things a man can do with all that time besides reading all of it

OT: I believe on Hiruzen ... He is nothing more, nothing less than a PROFESSOR.

-Haku Yuki- · Feb 23, 2014

even orichimaru said if he was ten years younger he'd have won

Joker · Feb 23, 2014

-Haku Yuki- said:
even orichimaru said if he was ten years younger he'd have won

Already covered that, nope.

Deadai · Feb 23, 2014

-Haku Yuki- said:
even orichimaru said if he was ten years younger he'd have won

If Hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have had the strength to be able to pull out Orochimaru's soul is what Orochimaru was referring to.

MinatoTheYellowFlash · Feb 23, 2014

Minato would have solo'd with less than half in an instant, prime or not.

VongolaX · Feb 23, 2014

What happens if Orochimaru Summoned 30% edo tensei 1, 2 hokage, and (random) 2nd Mizukage?

Hiruzen would of been destoyed

omarsen · Feb 23, 2014

HiddenSound said:
Orochimaru won the battle.
He lost the war.
It is that simple.

some true to that statement.

Deadai said:
It was in enclosed area neither side had assistance (Don't even bring up ET) what is there to debate?
Orochimaru survived due to Hiruzen not having the power to completely seal him away.
It's a close match leaning twords Orochimaru taking the victory.

My point is even, if Orochimaru was completly sealed, It wouldn't have killed him, since there were hundrends of people with his curse mark.

Godly said:
Going back to Hiruzen's old battle with Orochimaru; everyone seems to think the latter admitted inferiority to the old weasel. That's really not the case; being Hiruzen's student Orochimaru is very familiar with his fighting style; but the same case can't be said for Hiruzen due to Orochimaru's defection and development to new Jutsu.
Now people would like to use the following scan as proof; [
You must be registered for see links
]
Orochimaru's mentioning that if Hiruzen was ten years younger he would've been able to completely pull out his soul with the Shiki Fuujin.
Now don't get it twisted Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen the whole battle and even WANTED to see the Shiki Fuujin: [
You must be registered for see links
]
Not only that; but the latter also had plenty of times to kill the man during battle; but simply didn't because that would ruin the "fun" ; [
You must be registered for see links
]

Now; I hope I made it clear; Orochimaru > Hiruzen. Don't get it twisted.

Now that I put that to rest; let me go take a shower; dueces.

So is that your arguemtn, "Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen" and orochimaru wanted to see the Shiki Fuujin.

I don't think that Orochimaru knew what kind of seal it was, beside that Its not Hiruzen's problem that Orochimaru underestimated Hiruzen.

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dark legion said:
I started to Read it ... but u see .... there are so many wonderful things a man can do with all that time besides reading all of it

OT: I believe on Hiruzen ... He is nothing more, nothing less than a PROFESSOR.

Not that much to read, I mis clicked and posted it.

Joker · Feb 23, 2014

omarsen said:
some true to that statement.

My point is even, if Orochimaru was completly sealed, It wouldn't have killed him, since there were hundrends of people with his curse mark.

So is that your arguemtn, "Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen" and orochimaru wanted to see the Shiki Fuujin.

I don't think that Orochimaru knew what kind of seal it was, beside that Its not Hiruzen's problem that Orochimaru underestimated Hiruzen.

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Not that much to read, I mis clicked and posted it.

Horrible counter, we see Orochimaru demanding Hiruzen to show him the jutsu, even stating he was commanding the Hokages to toy with him. Orochimaru is stronger, point blank period.

thepizzaguy · Feb 23, 2014

There was no debate. Oro is too much for hiruzen to handle

ShisuiReborn · Feb 23, 2014

HiddenSound said:
Orochimaru won the battle.
He lost the war.
It is that simple.

That's pretty much it. Hiruzen won in the long run, since the village survived and Orochimaru was basically thwarted.

I'm honestly just confused where you got those percentages from, regarding the power of the Edos. I understand that they were revived more powerful the second time, but you can't just throw those numbers around. For all we know, "Almost at full power" could mean 95%, or even 99%. I'm sure you're in the general area as to what percentage they're at, but I'm just saying you can't say these things so assuredly, like you did.

omarsen · Feb 23, 2014

Godly said:
Horrible counter, we see Orochimaru demanding Hiruzen to show him the jutsu, even stating he was commanding the Hokages to toy with him. Orochimaru is stronger, point blank period.

If that is true, then how come, Hiruzen suprise attack Orochimaru being very low on chakra+stamina.
if what you are saying is true, then Orochimaru could have 1shot Hiruzen after he sealed the edos since he was in very bad shape, yet he hold Orochimaru for 1 hour and trying pulling his soul out.

Oro shit his pants

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thepizzaguy said:
There was no debate. Oro is too much for hiruzen to handle

Too bad manga states otherwise.

ShisuiReborn said:
That's pretty much it. Hiruzen won in the long run, since the village survived and Orochimaru was basically thwarted.

I'm honestly just confused where you got those percentages from, regarding the power of the Edos. I understand that they were revived more powerful the second time, but you can't just throw those numbers around. For all we know, "Almost at full power" could mean 95%, or even 99%. I'm sure you're in the general area as to what percentage they're at, but I'm just saying you can't say these things so assuredly, like you did.

These numbers is from what the majority of the base were saying. I know these numbers are random, but you can say that, when oro summoned the edos in part 1 their power level was between 10-60% and second with time sasuke could be 70-99%

Red Slayer · Feb 23, 2014

the fact is that Hiruzen sacrifice himself to took out oro's hands that is his limit, Hiruzen himself knew hat he didn't had nuff power to kill/beat orochimaru.

Joker · Feb 23, 2014

omarsen said:
If that is true, then how come, Hiruzen suprise attack Orochimaru being very low on chakra+stamina.
if what you are saying is true, then Orochimaru could have 1shot Hiruzen after he sealed the edos since he was in very bad shape, yet he hold Orochimaru for 1 hour and trying pulling his soul out.

Oro shit his pants

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Too bad manga states otherwise.

These numbers is from what the majority of the base were saying. I know these numbers are random, but you can say that, when oro summoned the edos in part 1 their power level was between 10-60% and second with time sasuke could be 70-99%

Are you dense...? Once Orochimaru was caught by the Shiki Fuujin, it disabled all ninjutsu. Orochimaru is stronger than Hiruzen until he states otherwise.

ShiroShonen · Feb 23, 2014

HiddenSound said:
Orochimaru won the battle.
He lost the war.
It is that simple.

Nicely said

omarsen · Feb 23, 2014

Hyuuga Neji 18 said:
the fact is that Hiruzen sacrifice himself to took out oro's hands that is his limit, Hiruzen himself knew hat he didn't had nuff power to kill/beat orochimaru.

Hiruzen wanted mostly to seal the edos, beside that, even if he sealed Orochimaru to begin with, the edo will kept going on, and we know that Hashirama+Tobirama would have made great damage to Konoha. Hiruzen sure was capable of other seals, but he wanted a seal that is almost unbreakable, to make sure that Orochimaru wont use the senju brothers again. Even if he sealed Orochimaru completly orochimaru still wouldn't have died, since his "Sanin chakra/curse mark" still lived witin hundrends of the people he kept in prison.

Godly said:
Are you dense...? Once Orochimaru was caught by the Shiki Fuujin, it disabled all ninjutsu. Orochimaru is stronger than Hiruzen until he states otherwise.

Manga states otherwise + read reply above.

Joker · Feb 23, 2014

omarsen said:
Hiruzen wanted mostly to seal the edos, beside that, even if he sealed Orochimaru to begin with, the edo will kept going on, and we know that Hashirama+Tobirama would have made great damage to Konoha. Hiruzen sure was capable of other seals, but he wanted a seal that is almost unbreakable, to make sure that Orochimaru wont use the senju brothers again. Even if he sealed Orochimaru completly orochimaru still wouldn't have died, since his "Sanin chakra/curse mark" still lived witin hundrends of the people he kept in prison.

Manga states otherwise + read reply above.

Manga does not state otherwise, your personal fanboyism does. I pointed out facts clear as day; you're using opinions and assumptions. Until stated otherwise Orochimaru > Hiruzen, stay irate.

Ending the debate Hiruzen vs Orochimaru

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