Hiruzens new "feat" makes madara look like ass.

[startup97]

No one ****s with Souji. ._.

I agree. Souji is dangerous.

 

[Murasame]

I actually saw this guy debate against KG and held his own considering he was using DSM Kabuto while KG was using hashirama.

 

[Penguin]

I actually saw this guy debate against KG and held his own considering he was using DSM Kabuto while KG was using hashirama.

Souji is not a guy. He is an omniscient being who can stamp you out of existence if he so chooses.

 

[Cycoresis]

lol because he can use those elements he puts Madara to shame? would we also assume that Edo Kakuzu puts Madara to shame too? or Nagato since the Rinnegan allowed him to use many elements too?...Yes Hiruzen showed a feat but it wasn't that great IMO it was just ordinary for someone of that caliber...Until he mixes the elements I'm staying unimpressed...

 

[Exaar]

No im asking you,

What bases do you base this fact on that Hiruzen can do what he did as an edo? I know the chakra reserves don't change, but the fact that chakra refills means Edo's fight much longer than they would Alive.

So Do you believe Old man Hiruzen can do all the things he did when he was an edo? Remember that he barely could pull off 3 clones when he was alive, and effortlessly made 5 clones even after fighting the war for awhile?

I'd love this hear this.

First off, Anything An edo can do, The living form can do also, The only thing up for debate is if he would be tired after using such a technique.

Also Hiruzen didn't "Barely" make 3 clones, He made two clones, The reason he only made 2 was because thats all he needed. Even with his chakra divided into 1/3 after a lengthy fight, Each clone still had enough chakra to use the demon seal even with 1/3 chakra.

Not only that, Even after he had split his chakra into 1/3, used the dead demon seal and sealed Hashi and tobirama, He still had enough stamina to beat Orochimaru in CQC.
Before he even used Shadow clone/Demon seal combo, He had used a number of jutsu's before that, including summoning jutsu.

 

[Flawž]

Yes, he is capable of pulling that off.

Here, since we agree on at least ONE thing, let's put it logically together.

Assume that Hiruzen and Edo Hiruzen both have a base 100 chakra. Then, let's assume that the technique he pulled off requires 90 chakra.

That would leave Hiruzen and Edo Hiruzen both with 10 chakra left. Edo Hiruzen's chakra would regenerate far faster than Alive Hiruzen's. The latter would have to wait a while, take a food pill, etc. before he could do something like that again. Therefore, he is capable of performing the feat.

This is an example of both a power scale and a retcon. Hiruzen was appropriately power scaled for part 2, and his feats were retconned and adjusted effectively.

They are the SAME ENTITY and are therefore capable of the SAME FEATS. Prove me otherwise, not using the clone argument. Every character was power scaled from the timeskip. Simple as that.

My bad, forgot about this debate.

-----

I know about the Edo tensei and it's laws and rules. Im well aware of the fact that They still have their Maximum potential Chakra as they did before death and this supports my claims even more.

Hiruzen's chakra tank in Edo state = Old man Hiruzen before death (fight against oro)

-----

You could say it's power scaling differences but That's not fully justifiable. Hiruzen, before his death was hardly able to preform 2 shadow clones. In his edo state, he popped 5 in Like he was taking a stroll in the evening. this isn't anything big, but this let's us know that Edo hiruzen is feeding off of edo tensei more greatly than compared to Tobirama.

------

So you're saying that Every edo can do exactly what they can do in edo state, alive? That's ridiculous. For many reason's.

Edo tensei:

Undying body
Unlimited source of chakra
no pain felt
no stamina issues
No restrictions

One example of How Edo's are sevral level's higher than their "alive counterparts is,

Minato warping the juubi's TBB low difficulty without any signs of fatigue.

Here's the Kyuubi's TBB minato warped:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Here's Minato running out of chakra warping such a thing:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Now Here's a Juubi's TBB:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And Minato's low diff smile after that feat

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

----

I could go into more details, but it's useless. Edo's are at another level than their alive counterparts. Thats a fact. Tobirama's Feats are more justifiable as he has Senju Reserves Compared to Hiruzen who still has his Old man Chakra reserves as an edo.

 

[shelke]

Chakra is created from Physical Energy and Spiritual Energy. Since Edos have endless supply of Physical energy, they can produce better feats than their alive counter-parts as one portion of the chakra is at endless supply. Even then, Hizuren's counters were not even half Madara's Katon attacks.

 

[Exaar]

One example of How Edo's are sevral level's higher than their "alive counterparts is,

Minato warping the juubi's TBB low difficulty without any signs of fatigue.

Here's the Kyuubi's TBB minato warped:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Here's Minato running out of chakra warping such a thing:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Now Here's a Juubi's TBB:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And Minato's low diff smile after that feat

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

----

I could go into more details, but it's useless. Edo's are at another level than their alive counterparts. Thats a fact. Tobirama's Feats are more justifiable as he has Senju Reserves Compared to Hiruzen who still has his Old man Chakra reserves as an edo.

The scan you posted with Minato running out of chakra was after

He warped the TBB
He warped The whole 100% kyuubi
He fought Tobi
Used FTG a number of times
Used one Rasengan
Used summoning Jutsu

Even then he had the chakra to use the Demon seal and the seal that sealed the fox inside naruto, Then use another summoning tech.

I see no reason why Living minato can't teleport a TBB from a juubi, But i'd guess it would take most of his chakra.

Edit: Forgot to factor in Minato having 50% of the kyuubi's chakra. So yeah maybe he cannot warp the juubi TBB in life beacause in life he didn't have the kyuubi's chakra unlike he does in his edo form.

If living minato had Km/Bm then yes he could do the same thing.

 

[shelke]

Minato never became a sage, when he has had ties to the Toads. This could mean only one thing; his chakra reserves are not that large to warrant such training and his teleportation doesn't require much chakra. I doubt he can even make clones in real life or can't do make more than one. This is further backed by the fact how he never made a clone during his fight with Obito, when it would have wrapped things up very quickly.

 

[Exaar]

Minato never became a sage, when he has had ties to the Toads. This could mean only one thing; his chakra reserves are not that large to warrant such training

Or that he died before he could complete the training.

 

[Imperius]

Madara took out 9 tailed beast and 2 Former Hokage



What the hell does Hiruzen have to beat that?

Hiruzen is called the strongest of all and was hailed as the God of Shinobi, what the hell does Madara have to beat that?

Hiruzen > Madara

Sarcasm no Jutsu

 

[shelke]

Or that he died before he could complete the training.

That's TOO far-fetched a point as a counter. Even you know that.

 

[Exaar]

That's TOO far-fetched a point as a counter. Even you know that.

Far-fetched or not, Still a possibility.

 

[shelke]

^ No. Because it's never even implied in the manga, not once. When his Rasangan training and his inability to complete it, is. You cannot simply throw in things and call them possibilities. Even the Sage Toads didn't say anything along these lines, heck, they didn't even imply it remotely. So this one is off the table for argumentation.

It just proves that his chakra reserves were decent at best.

 

[Exaar]

^ No. Because it's never even implied in the manga, not once. When his Rasangan training and his inability to complete it, is. You cannot simply throw in things and call them possibilities. Even the Sage Toads didn't say anything along these lines, heck, they didn't even imply it remotely. So this one is off the table for argumentation.

It just proves that his chakra reserves were decent at best.

It was also never implied that minato didn't have the reserves do learn it.

You're argument of minato's chakra reserves are no more or less plausible than mine.

 

[shelke]

^ I won't say much, other than when someone grasps at straws, their argumentation looks quite like yours.

 

[Exaar]

^ I won't say much, other than when someone grasps at straws, their argumentation looks quite like yours.

And you're not grasping at straws?.

There is no proof in what you say either, So no need to go around acting like your assumption on the matter of minato's chakra levels are fact.

 

[shelke]

^ Lol

10 characters. Boy, you are trying hard.

 

[Flawž]

The scan you posted with Minato running out of chakra was after

He warped the TBB
He warped The whole 100% kyuubi
He fought Tobi
Used FTG a number of times
Used one Rasengan
Used summoning Jutsu

Even then he had the chakra to use the Demon seal and the seal that sealed the fox inside naruto, Then use another summoning tech.

I see no reason why Living minato can't teleport a TBB from a juubi, But i'd guess it would take most of his chakra.

Edit: Forgot to factor in Minato having 50% of the kyuubi's chakra. So yeah maybe he cannot warp the juubi TBB in life beacause in life he didn't have the kyuubi's chakra unlike he does in his edo form.

If living minato had Km/Bm then yes he could do the same thing.

My point still stands, He needed to be an edo to execute those feats. And Shelke made a good point in how Minato never used clones When he was alive, specially against obito.

Edo feats are always in a much larger scale.

 

[Black Wolf]

The thing Zetsu used is around the size of Gamabunta. The one that Hashirama used towered above the Kyuubi armored in Susano'o, which is far bigger than Gamabunta. You're comparing a 4 story building here to a skyscraper.