[Theory] [FEAR] Analysis: Can Hiruzen use Onmyoudon?

[FearxDeath]

Man... it's like you think this is real life or something. It's a story made up by a dude who lives in Japan. As much as some people like to think it so, this universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like. This is Kishimoto not Tolkein. Sometimes how thing appear on the surface are just that, and only anything else if the author decides to altar things to fit future plot points. Sure it's fun to theorize, but don't for a second think any one theory has much more relevance than any other if both have manga facts behind them.

Also for the last time, stop twisting my words. The first paragraph WAS necessary because you took my carefully chosen words and paraphrased to make it easier for you to debunk... or you just don't comprehend what I'm saying. Either way, I once again grow weary of having to repeat myself.

It's pretty amazing how you contradict yourself too. You say Obito can use yin-yang release w/ izunagi, yet claim he can no longer use it as jinchuriki because he didn't use it. Yet no explanation as to how or why he would have lost this ability. If I wanted to I can come up w/ several other reasons why he didn't use izunagi. Ultimately the results speak for themselves, a part of Obito wanted to break Naruto to prove he chose the correct path, and another part of him didn't really want to win at all. You also misquote Obito, he never said his Izunagi was incomplete.

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1) I didn't say we aren't privy to yin-yang release. We know it is a power only So6P had, so if there are things only he can do it's safe to assume it's due to it (i.e. Onmyoudon). We do know some things about it, but what we don't know are it's limitations. There is a difference, are you really unable to see that? Limitations like what sort of prep is needed for Creation of All Things and what its parameters are. We also don't know other uses for the release out side of making illusion into reality. I believe Kishi was showing us an offensive used for the release in Onmyoudon

2) I really don't need to explain how senjutsu counters Onmyoudon, but since you're so obtuse. yin-yang release doesn't work on senjutsu because it's comprised of more than yin and yang chakra. I hope that concept didn't fly over your head.

3) Again, yes, this a story and not even an especially deep one. It's a kids story. I'm not claiming "plot no jutsu", I gave you a reasonable and verifiable reason for why Obito didn't just obliterate everything. I feel PNJ is a term people use whenever a character acts against how they feel they should, kinda like you trying to rationalize it. I simply just except the way a character acts as part of the story for better or for worse. If you think it's illogical or stupid, well, that's a beef you'll have to take up with the author.

EDIT: You know I just realized another reason why Hiruzen's hypothesis has nothing to do w/ Onmyoudon. The attack that Hiruzen faced and Onmyoudon aren't even the same ability! If they were Hiruzen never would have returned.

Now if you wanted say Hiruzen could do the jutsu Obito was doing before he gained control of the juubi, then I agree that's possible, but would say it's still highly unlikely. Only because using combo attacks doesn't necessarily yield the same result as a blood line limit/selection using the same elements (When naruto and sasuke attacked it wasn't a scorch release jutsu). We also haven't seen more than 2 elemental jutsu combined.

You start off by saying it shouldnt be taken seriously because its all made up and then you give your rebuttle on why your right and thus contradict your own idealogy. But Ill hold you to your words "As much as some people like to think it so, the universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like.". So lets stop arguing this topic since by your own testimony there is no point in doing so.

 

[FearxDeath]

Man... it's like you think this is real life or something. It's a story made up by a dude who lives in Japan. As much as some people like to think it so, this universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like. This is Kishimoto not Tolkein. Sometimes how thing appear on the surface are just that, and only anything else if the author decides to altar things to fit future plot points. Sure it's fun to theorize, but don't for a second think any one theory has much more relevance than any other if both have manga facts behind them.

Also for the last time, stop twisting my words. The first paragraph WAS necessary because you took my carefully chosen words and paraphrased to make it easier for you to debunk... or you just don't comprehend what I'm saying. Either way, I once again grow weary of having to repeat myself.

It's pretty amazing how you contradict yourself too. You say Obito can use yin-yang release w/ izunagi, yet claim he can no longer use it as jinchuriki because he didn't use it. Yet no explanation as to how or why he would have lost this ability. If I wanted to I can come up w/ several other reasons why he didn't use izunagi. Ultimately the results speak for themselves, a part of Obito wanted to break Naruto to prove he chose the correct path, and another part of him didn't really want to win at all. You also misquote Obito, he never said his Izunagi was incomplete.

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1) I didn't say we aren't privy to yin-yang release. We know it is a power only So6P had, so if there are things only he can do it's safe to assume it's due to it (i.e. Onmyoudon). We do know some things about it, but what we don't know are it's limitations. There is a difference, are you really unable to see that? Limitations like what sort of prep is needed for Creation of All Things and what its parameters are. We also don't know other uses for the release out side of making illusion into reality. I believe Kishi was showing us an offensive used for the release in Onmyoudon

2) I really don't need to explain how senjutsu counters Onmyoudon, but since you're so obtuse. yin-yang release doesn't work on senjutsu because it's comprised of more than yin and yang chakra. I hope that concept didn't fly over your head.

3) Again, yes, this a story and not even an especially deep one. It's a kids story. I'm not claiming "plot no jutsu", I gave you a reasonable and verifiable reason for why Obito didn't just obliterate everything. I feel PNJ is a term people use whenever a character acts against how they feel they should, kinda like you trying to rationalize it. I simply just except the way a character acts as part of the story for better or for worse. If you think it's illogical or stupid, well, that's a beef you'll have to take up with the author.

EDIT: You know I just realized another reason why Hiruzen's hypothesis has nothing to do w/ Onmyoudon. The attack that Hiruzen faced and Onmyoudon aren't even the same ability! If they were Hiruzen never would have returned.

Now if you wanted say Hiruzen could do the jutsu Obito was doing before he gained control of the juubi, then I agree that's possible, but would say it's still highly unlikely. Only because using combo attacks doesn't necessarily yield the same result as a blood line limit/selection using the same elements (When naruto and sasuke attacked it wasn't a scorch release jutsu). We also haven't seen more than 2 elemental jutsu combined.

You start off by saying it shouldnt be taken seriously because its all made up and then you give your rebuttle on why your right and thus contradict your own idealogy. But Ill hold you to your words "As much as some people like to think it so, the universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like.". So lets stop arguing this topic since by your own testimony there is no point in doing so.

Fear please stop trying to explain to morons, its like an up hill battle, you must have written nearly 1000 words + there trying to turn that guy around jeez. Pick your battles.

Question about Haku as you pointed out.

Perhaps it works in a way we are not familiar with, Perhaps Haku & "bloodline" users gain a sub element nature from birth. Which can be divided into its basic elements through training.....I do not believe for one moment that inside Haku he had water and wind nature affinity separate inside him. It would make sense for his natural state to be Ice natured, I imagine it would be akin to splitting his insides to create water or wind jutsu.

However again your up against Yamato's explanation which makes very little sense when combining it with other observations, its like Kishi introduced mixed up ideas about the same subject and had forgotten what he had already said or shown on the subject.



OMG Pls stop with the Yin-Yang thing its just fricken chakra its not special! What is special is a UNIQUE ABILITY that the SO6P had to use Yin-Yang eg CHAKRA to create stuff. Thats all!

People are spouting Yin-Yang like its some kinda wizardry when every fricken med-nin or genjutsu user uses it!

Yah man I am starting to lose hope, its like they say "There is none so blind as he who will not see".

But in regards to your statement about Haku, I believe that you dont need to Master Water and Wind in order to use Ice, you merely have to have access to them. Ergo know how to mold the Chakra required for the style. You dont neccesarily need to know a single technique in the Nature styles in order to use Techniques in the Mixed Nature Style, you just need to know how to mold there respecting chakra frequencies.

Where does it say that the 4 element jutsu is earth, wind, water and fire? and the 5 element jutsu has lightning with it included? As far as I remember, it just said 4 elements and not which.

If Hiruzen can use Onmyoudon, why did he have to theorize about what Obito could be using?
Wouldnt he recognize it, because Hiruzen could use it himself?
The 4 element thing looks basicly the same(in appearance) as the 5 element one, except it didnt absorb ninjutsu yet, like the 5 element one can.

Its partly just common sense. Like I said before the technique Obito was using from the start was exactly like Oonoki's Dust Release except it had a liquid form as oppose to just being a swaure or a cone. This implies that the Water Nature Style was added to the Fire, Wind and Earth, thus giving it its liquid attrubutes.

I think I said this but I may have deleted it in the overhaul of the thread. Obito wasnt using Onmyoudon at the time, because it didnt negate ninjutsu. So Hiruzen wasnt sure what he was using but knew that since his Onmyoudon was a mixture of 5 elements and Oonoki's Dust Release was a mixture of 3 Elements then what Obito was somewhere inbetween, atleast 4 elements.

 

[Draxus]

You start off by saying it shouldnt be taken seriously because its all made up and then you give your rebuttle on why your right and thus contradict your own idealogy. But Ill hold you to your words "As much as some people like to think it so, the universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like.". So lets stop arguing this topic since by your own testimony there is no point in doing so.

Nice cop-out response. Yes, lets take that 1 line out of context, put words in my mouth, and throw out everything else I said. Seems to be your MO anyway.

 

[FearxDeath]

Nice cop-out response. Yes, lets take that 1 line out of context, put words in my mouth, and throw out everything else I said. Seems to be your MO anyway.

I put words in your mouth? There are YOUR OWN WORDS? I dont understand why you said them if I was suppose to ignore them. You sit there and say, there is no point in delving too deep in debating this stuff because its all a story made up by Kishimotto and thus at some point its going to stop making sense because Kishi hasnt thought it out that far.

Now there would be no reason to bring this up if you didnt feel like this was one of this situations. So then why are we arguing if by your own testimony we are arguing nothing. What was your reasoning for saying that? Where you just being talkative?

But in all honesty I dont even care about the argument because I dont like arguing conjecture. At the end of the day you think Yin-Yang Release is a part of Onmyoudon, I disagree. Where do you want to go from here?

 

[Meowazziel]

Its partly just common sense. Like I said before the technique Obito was using from the start was exactly like Oonoki's Dust Release except it had a liquid form as oppose to just being a swaure or a cone. This implies that the Water Nature Style was added to the Fire, Wind and Earth, thus giving it its liquid attrubutes.

I think I said this but I may have deleted it in the overhaul of the thread. Obito wasnt using Onmyoudon at the time, because it didnt negate ninjutsu. So Hiruzen wasnt sure what he was using but knew that since his Onmyoudon was a mixture of 5 elements and Oonoki's Dust Release was a mixture of 3 Elements then what Obito was somewhere inbetween, atleast 4 elements.

I think you deleted that part (the explanation about Hiruzen that you are giving now) in the overhaul of the thread indeed. I could see this being true. Water being the fourth element is likely too.

I find your theory and explanations likely to happen

It would finaly give Hiruzen some screentime where he can shine, because doing shuriken kage bunshin no jutsu doesnt make him shine imo. It makes him look a bit like a fodder. Onmyoudon however would make him look like a boss.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Respect nigga.

 

[Smd]

can he use it? probably not

does he know of it yes, due to plot

 

[Draxus]

I put words in your mouth? There are YOUR OWN WORDS? I dont understand why you said them if I was suppose to ignore them. You sit there and say, there is no point in delving too deep in debating this stuff because its all a story made up by Kishimotto and thus at some point its going to stop making sense because Kishi hasnt thought it out that far.

Now there would be no reason to bring this up if you didnt feel like this was one of this situations. So then why are we arguing if by your own testimony we are arguing nothing. What was your reasoning for saying that? Where you just being talkative?

But in all honesty I dont even care about the argument because I dont like arguing conjecture. At the end of the day you think Yin-Yang Release is a part of Onmyoudon, I disagree. Where do you want to go from here?

Testimony? Are you on drugs? This isn't a court room. You said, I said that debating this was pointless, I never said that. Hence, you put words in my mouth. The line you quoted in context refers to people taking this stuff too seriously, not the worth of debating theories.

Fine, disagree if you like. But you entire basis is from Hiruzen's observation of a jutsu that wasn't Onmyoudon, so I hope you feel satisfied in your poor source of evidence. I wasn't trying to change your mind, I was just making sure my position wasn't misinterpreted as you continued to do over and over.

 

[valandil988]

med ninja's use yin release and genjutsu users use yang release. To compare that to using yin-yang release is akin to comparing ice release to someone who can use wind jutsu and water jutsu. It's another level. A power only born from the So6P, and from what we have seen from it, it works a lot like wizardry. If it can turn illusion into reality, how can you possibly think it's limited to only that miraculous feet?

So I really have to respond to this?

Medic nins use an expression of chakra AKA Yin-yang release, no where is it said that they use pure Yin or Yang. Same with Genjutsu users they use Chakra aka Yin-Yang release.

Yin-Yang release is another way to say Chakra release. Get it? I specifically stated what you are referring to which is an ability of the SO6P: Creation of All Things is Not JUST Yin-Yang release. That is the jutsu that can make imagined things reality something beyond most ninja unless your called Uchiha. Creation of all things is fueled by YES you guessed it Chakra AKA Yin-Yang release. Creation of all things is an ability that is restricted to Rinnegan users.

Onmyoudon does no such thing, its a Jutsu that can negate any NINJUTSU emphasis on NINJUTSU. It cannot negate Sage Arts. If it was a true expression of the Creation of All Things ability of the Sage then nothing would be able to stop it. Senjutsu obviously was capable of matching it.

Testimony? Are you on drugs? This isn't a court room. You said, I said that debating this was pointless, I never said that. Hence, you put words in my mouth. The line you quoted in context refers to people taking this stuff too seriously, not the worth of debating theories.

Fine, disagree if you like. But you entire basis is from Hiruzen's observation of a jutsu that wasn't Onmyoudon, so I hope you feel satisfied in your poor source of evidence. I wasn't trying to change your mind, I was just making sure my position wasn't misinterpreted as you continued to do over and over.

Have a little respect, stop accusing people of being on drugs and shit. And for your information testimony is a word used to describe: Ones opinion/account to the best of their point of view and knowledge OR evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof.

He wasn't saying you were on trial so calm down jeez.

 

[Draxus]

So I really have to respond to this?

Medic nins use an expression of chakra AKA Yin-yang release, no where is it said that they use pure Yin or Yang. Same with Genjutsu users they use Chakra aka Yin-Yang release.

For genjutsu users, check this page where the Mizukage calls him self a "yin element" not as "yin-yang element" users.

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I natural assumed from this that healers would be yang element, but I guess I mixed it up earlier, my bad.

Yin-Yang release is another way to say Chakra release. Get it? I specifically stated what you are referring to which is an ability of the SO6P: Creation of All Things is Not JUST Yin-Yang release. That is the jutsu that can make imagined things reality something beyond most ninja unless your called Uchiha. Creation of all things is fueled by YES you guessed it Chakra AKA Yin-Yang release. Creation of all things is an ability that is restricted to Rinnegan users.

No, it's not, only So6P was known to use complete yin-yang release. And Creation of All Things is a technique that uses yin-yang release. Another known one is Izunagi.

Onmyoudon does no such thing, its a Jutsu that can negate any NINJUTSU emphasis on NINJUTSU. It cannot negate Sage Arts. If it was a true expression of the Creation of All Things ability of the Sage then nothing would be able to stop it. Senjutsu obviously was capable of matching it.

I really have no idea how it's inability to negate senjutsu brings any validity to your claim. Creation of All Things turns illusion into reality, it has nothing to do w/ negating anything.

Have a little respect, stop accusing people of being on drugs and shit. And for your information testimony is a word used to describe: Ones opinion/account to the best of their point of view and knowledge OR evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof.

He wasn't saying you were on trial so calm down jeez.

Hey White Knight, while you're looking up terms you should probably try to find where "to ask" is anywhere in the definition of "accuse". And while you're at it look up the definitions of rhetorical, sarcasm, and levity. At the end you'll probably realize you're the one who should calm down.

 

[FearxDeath]

Testimony? Are you on drugs? This isn't a court room. You said, I said that debating this was pointless, I never said that. Hence, you put words in my mouth. The line you quoted in context refers to people taking this stuff too seriously, not the worth of debating theories.

Fine, disagree if you like. But you entire basis is from Hiruzen's observation of a jutsu that wasn't Onmyoudon, so I hope you feel satisfied in your poor source of evidence. I wasn't trying to change your mind, I was just making sure my position wasn't misinterpreted as you continued to do over and over.

1) I can see why you would be so resistant against this because your the one who said this nonsense, and so you scream that I am taking your words out of context. But if I pressure someone for answers and their first response is that I am taking things too seriously and how Kishimotto is making this stuff up as he goes along so something might not make sense or have answers. Well why am I debating with someone who is satisfied with unfulfilling answers?

2) I dont mind if you think I have poor evidence, I dont mind if you think I am wrong. Its like a child calling me a poopy face, it loses its importance if you dont respect where the critism is coming from. And you may feel the same about me, thats OK. I am just saying I appreciate it when people watch how they move when discussiing with me. Because I dont log on or make threads/posts alot. And since debates can take days I dont want to get into something that I can take anything from.

Man... it's like you think this is real life or something. It's a story made up by a dude who lives in Japan. As much as some people like to think it so, this universe wasn't design to be delved into as deeply as they like. This is Kishimoto not Tolkein. Sometimes how thing appear on the surface are just that, and only anything else if the author decides to altar things to fit future plot points. Sure it's fun to theorize, but don't for a second think any one theory has much more relevance than any other if both have manga facts behind them.

 

[valandil988]

For genjutsu users, check this page where the Mizukage calls him self a "yin element" not as "yin-yang element" users.

You must be registered for see links

I natural assumed from this that healers would be yang element, but I guess I mixed it up earlier, my bad.



No, it's not, only So6P was known to use complete yin-yang release. And Creation of All Things is a technique that uses yin-yang release. Another known one is Izunagi.



I really have no idea how it's inability to negate senjutsu brings any validity to your claim. Creation of All Things turns illusion into reality, it has nothing to do w/ negating anything.



Hey White Knight, while you're looking up terms you should probably try to find where "to ask" is anywhere in the definition of "accuse". And while you're at it look up the definitions of rhetorical, sarcasm, and levity. At the end you'll probably realize you're the one who should calm down.

Sigh....

Chakra users use Yin-Yang its called Chakra look it up!

Here:

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In order of bolded lines:

1. Genjutsu users do not use pure Yin, they use a different ratio of chakra, which likely has more Yin in it than Yang. The Yang is necessary to effect the very small changes in the victims chakra system.

2. These are JUTSU/ABILITIES! They are fueled by chakra which is a mix of Yin and Yang! The fact that they are limited to the Sage and his descendants is what so unique about them. The use of Chakra AKA Yin mixed with Yang aka Yin-Yang release is not unique!

3. Do you understand how dumb you sound in that statement? I mean really =_=. The fact that creation of all things can MAKE reality conform to fantasy means that it doesn't matter if a Jutsu is Senjutsu Sage Art or normal Ninjutsu it would be negated complete by the reality altering effects of Creation of All Things. Ergo if Onmyoudon was an aspect of this jutsu Creation of All Things like Inzanagi is then Onmyoudon would never be matched by senjutsu!

Its super basic stuff man. A = B = C hence A = C

How many times do I have to state this in various ways.

Think of it this way, Lets say I can wish things and they happen....

There is a massive fireball coming right at me, "Oh dear I better wish it away!" Fireball = gone. Doesn't matter if is a super duper fireball of doom or made by Super Madara or whatever. It would still disappear.

Same thing if Onmyoudon was Creation of all things or a derivative of reality manipulation. Senjutsu wasn't negated hence it cannot be an expression of creation of all things.

4. =_= *Slowly claps*

 

[Draxus]

Sigh....

Chakra users use Yin-Yang its called Chakra look it up!

Here:

You must be registered for see links

In order of bolded lines:

1. Genjutsu users do not use pure Yin, they use a different ratio of chakra, which likely has more Yin in it than Yang. The Yang is necessary to effect the very small changes in the victims chakra system.

2. These are JUTSU/ABILITIES! They are fueled by chakra which is a mix of Yin and Yang! The fact that they are limited to the Sage and his descendants is what so unique about them. The use of Chakra AKA Yin mixed with Yang aka Yin-Yang release is not unique!

3. Do you understand how dumb you sound in that statement? I mean really =_=. The fact that creation of all things can MAKE reality conform to fantasy means that it doesn't matter if a Jutsu is Senjutsu Sage Art or normal Ninjutsu it would be negated complete by the reality altering effects of Creation of All Things. Ergo if Onmyoudon was an aspect of this jutsu Creation of All Things like Inzanagi is then Onmyoudon would never be matched by senjutsu!

Its super basic stuff man. A = B = C hence A = C

How many times do I have to state this in various ways.

Think of it this way, Lets say I can wish things and they happen....

There is a massive fireball coming right at me, "Oh dear I better wish it away!" Fireball = gone. Doesn't matter if is a super duper fireball of doom or made by Super Madara or whatever. It would still disappear.

Same thing if Onmyoudon was Creation of all things or a derivative of reality manipulation. Senjutsu wasn't negated hence it cannot be an expression of creation of all things.

4. =_= *Slowly claps*

1. Can I get a reference for this info or is this just your opinion?

2. Yin-yang release is different than just using chakra. Yes chakra has a balance of yin and yang in it, but yin-yang release is manipulating these separate aspects of chakra to make amazing things happen (Izunagi, CoaT, Omyoudon, ect...).

3. Creaton of All Things has a much to do w/ Omyoudon as Hidden Mist Jutsu has to do with Water Dragon Bullet. They are both the same type of jutsu, but one is not an aspect of another or visa-versa.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the manga that states Creation of All Things would work in that way, nor what sort of prep time that would take. You seem to think I assume that because Obito can do some yin-yang release jutsu he can do all of them.

4. Oh, so you stepped you vocab game up?

1) I can see why you would be so resistant against this because your the one who said this nonsense, and so you scream that I am taking your words out of context. But if I pressure someone for answers and their first response is that I am taking things too seriously and how Kishimotto is making this stuff up as he goes along so something might not make sense or have answers. Well why am I debating with someone who is satisfied with unfulfilling answers?

2) I dont mind if you think I have poor evidence, I dont mind if you think I am wrong. Its like a child calling me a poopy face, it loses its importance if you dont respect where the critism is coming from. And you may feel the same about me, thats OK. I am just saying I appreciate it when people watch how they move when discussiing with me. Because I dont log on or make threads/posts alot. And since debates can take days I dont want to get into something that I can take anything from.

1) First of all, I never said Kishimotto is making stuff up as he goes along. Though it is true he didn't have this story completely fleshed out over 5 years ago, so I'm sure some aspects, especially smaller details, were only addressed when the plot called for it. The backstory of this world has never been fleshed out completely, which is what I was actually talking about. We don't have any super detailed info on how technology, physiology, and every jutsu revealed works, until Kishi needs to put it into the story. That's just his writing style. He's even made tweaks to the story that no longer seem to fit smoothly with his own databook or pre-shippuden chapters, and that's fine, I respect his right as an author not be locked into tiny details he came up with years ago. Secondly, this was NOT my first response. This was stated after being frustrated about how serious you are taking this. It is a fictional world, there is no empirical truth, it is whatever Kishi says it is. What's wrong with being patient and excepting what we are given by the author? Like I said it's fun to theorize, but don't go overboard thinking you got something figured out over anyone else if both theories are backed by manga fact. It's all opinion so lets just have perspective. Again we went down this road because you misrepresented my position, not because I don't think your theory has merit. I just wanted to point out the basis of this theory, in my opinion, is weak. You can either agree and change it, or turn a blind eye to an obvious flaw. (by obvious flaw I'm talking about Hiruzen's observation not being about Omyoudon). I seriously don't mind which road you take.

2) I have no flipping idea what you are talking about here. I'm not sure how respect has anything to do with it. After all, you've proven multiple times in just this particular exchange you have poor reading comprehension skill by misquoting me and Obito, but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to debate or respect your opinion. However I will stress to watch my moves more closely when adressing you and not to waist you presious time, Lord Fear xd