Hiruzen and Itachi vs DSM Kabuto

[Brother Numpsay]

This has already been shown he needed Sasuke to do this

And now we have more people trying to point this out to AGoodBoy lol. And apparently I'm the desperate one.

 

[HadouKage]

And now we have more people trying to point this out to AGoodBoy lol. And apparently I'm the desperate one.

Don't bother, I've debated with him once before and he still think the Gakido can't absorb Amateratsu
On top of that, he doesn't consider ET a part of DSM's power so I wouldn't even waste my time

 

[AGoodBoy]

Isn't ironic through? You want to burden of proof to lean on me when you need to prove he can. YOU made the claim he can do it alone, when the manga portray Itachi situation different. SO NOW THAT MEANS then, to you, you prove to that he can do it alone. Thus it is burden to YOU to proof it. You are trying to make yourself feel smart, in the end you aren't. Your are trying to lean the fallacious arguments on mine when your not even understanding how these fallacies work.

You are not going to make desperate ways of dodging these, as your doing your best to not make an argument (escape pod to avoid conceding) , or sneak out with a witty comment, wait isn't that a form of Ad Hominem?

Edit: ignore my other points that shows other methods of beating Itachi, while you claim I am only arguing through genjutsu.

Not only that, you claiming that there's no proof for me to prove the negative when I already address the situation of Shikimaru's case, compare to Itachi's case. So once again you are lying. Which you already stated you weren't doing to read my premise in the first place, lol this just keep getting better and better.

Manga shows pain beats that genjutsu. Considering itachi could talk, nothing stops him from biting off his own tongue but You're saying itachi can't break it. Therefore you're claiming no one in the top 10 can break it.

Prove that. You're the one who's claiming sasuke's words are it a chi's not me. Stop dodging the question and prove sound gen can't be broken by a solitary person. Manga says it can, you says it can't.

 

[Boston Rob]

Manga shows pain beats that genjutsu. Considering itachi could talk, nothing stops him from biting off his own tongue but You're saying itachi can't break it. Therefore you're claiming no one in the top 10 can break it.

Prove that. You're the one who's claiming sasuke's words are it a chi's not me. Stop dodging the question and prove sound gen can't be broken by a solitary person. Manga says it can, you says it can't.

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Yes it can Kurenai already showed this move to cancel genjutsu - shes biting her lip

 

[AGoodBoy]

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Yes it can Kurenai already showed this move to cancel genjutsu - shes biting her lip

Exactly my point. What ej is claiming is that sage mode is sooooo much of a boost over CSV2 that it transitions tayuya from chunnin, barely able to keep a restraint on a gen in, to god tier able to restrain even the most advanced genjutsu users. I don't know if he even realises it's still tayuya performing the genjutsu.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Don't bother, I've debated with him once before and he still think the Gakido can't absorb Amateratsu
On top of that, he doesn't consider ET a part of DSM's power so I wouldn't even waste my time

You have the wrong person. I've only ever debated you about yata. In fact I'm one of the people that have been saying for months that nagato can preta ama.
As to the ET part, idk if you're even referring to me here because all I've said is ET didn't show how kabuto himself defeats someone. It just shows how the edos do which is irrelevant in a kabuto vs someone thread.
You definitely have the wrong person.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

automatically disregard E.T when i hear 'DSM Kabuto'. Only a coward runs to the likes of Edo madara to show how 'DSM kabuto' beats someone. That doesn't tell me a shred how Kabuto himself gets the job done, it only says edo madara is > x/y. Whoopty doo, Kabuto wins because he has a stronger man fighting for him

when kabuto uses ET the ET's lose their free will. so its still kabuto fighting, hes just piloting an inaminate zombie at the time.
when nagato fought naruto, it was kabuto giving the commands and observing the whole thing. he even reacted to every change in the fight's pace.
you try to misinterpret edo tensei as being like tsunade summoning konoha because shes their leader. but kabutos not summoning help. hes calling forth creations made out of dust that he brought into existence. alone. with no help.
its most certainly his own power.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

when kabuto uses ET the ET's lose their free will. so its still kabuto fighting, hes just piloting an inaminate zombie at the time.
when nagato fought naruto, it was kabuto giving the commands and observing the whole thing. he even reacted to every change in the fight's pace.
you try to misinterpret edo tensei as being like tsunade summoning konoha because shes their leader. but kabutos not summoning help. hes calling forth creations made out of dust that he brought into existence. alone. with no help.
its most certainly his own power.

Agreed. Edo Tensei in Kabuto's situation shouldn't even be debatable. He worked and earned that technique maybe more than any other character has ever earned a technique. His. own. power.

 

[AGoodBoy]

when kabuto uses ET the ET's lose their free will. so its still kabuto fighting, hes just piloting an inaminate zombie at the time.
when nagato fought naruto, it was kabuto giving the commands and observing the whole thing. he even reacted to every change in the fight's pace.
you try to misinterpret edo tensei as being like tsunade summoning konoha because shes their leader. but kabutos not summoning help. hes calling forth creations made out of dust that he brought into existence. alone. with no help.
its most certainly his own power.

Like I said. I don't care to know how madara beats itachi, I could make a seperate thread. I want to know how DSM kabuto does it because apparently he's 'tiers above itachi' in their manga situation. Not discrediting his ET, just don't care about it for this fight. Same way I don't go saying 'orochimaru uses Mina to' in threads with him vs someone.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Manga shows pain beats that genjutsu. Considering itachi could talk, nothing stops him from biting off his own tongue but You're saying itachi can't break it. Therefore you're claiming no one in the top 10 can break it.

That was your mistake. You are supporting Boston Rob's scan. For you to make that claim of counter, is to put Kabuto's genjutsu on the same level of effect as Kurenai.

Your comparison is like: For your to break out of Genjutsu: Sharingan is to also claim you can break out of Tsukuyomi the same way.

Both source comes from the Sharingan, but one comes from a higher level of effect.

There are two ways of breaking genjutsu: Overpower it. Or have a second man do it for you. Example Ay has more chakra then Onoki but: When Ay was in a Genjutsu, he couldn't overpower Madara Sharingan Genjutsu[

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] but Onoki act as a second man[

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].

Tsukuyomi level of effect is much different then these method[

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]. (I don't have viz scan) and Itachi said to break this level of Genjutsu is to have a KKG or have Uchiha blood (both still need experience too).

Since you even admitted ignoring my evidence that Kabuto's Genjutsu is superior then the original Tayuya, Kabuto's level of Genjutsu proved that you needed a "second man" method to break his higher level of Genjutsu. But in order for Itachi and Sasuke to act as a "second man" they needed to touch each other. The effects of this Genjutsu made that impossible, thus why they had to Genjutsu each other, acting as wireless way.

The manga proved that Sasuke and Itachi worked as a second man to break each other out, meaning it will take more then just pain to escape.

Prove that. You're the one who's claiming sasuke's words are it a chi's not me. Stop dodging the question and prove sound gen can't be broken by a solitary person. Manga says it can, you says it can't.

Each post I made it easier to understand.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Spoiler

That was your mistake. You are supporting Boston Rob's scan. For you to make that claim of counter, is to put Kabuto's genjutsu on the same level of effect as Kurenai.

Your comparison is like: For your to break out of Genjutsu: Sharingan is to also claim you can break out of Tsukuyomi the same way.

Both source comes from the Sharingan, but one comes from a higher level of effect.

There are two ways of breaking genjutsu: Overpower it. Or have a second man do it for you. Example Ay has more chakra then Onoki but: When Ay was in a Genjutsu, he couldn't overpower Madara Sharingan Genjutsu[

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] but Onoki act as a second man[

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].

Tsukuyomi level of effect is much different then these method[

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]. (I don't have viz scan) and Itachi said to break this level of Genjutsu is to have a KKG or have Uchiha blood (both still need experience too).

Since you even admitted ignoring my evidence that Kabuto's Genjutsu is superior then the original Tayuya, Kabuto's level of Genjutsu proved that you needed a "second man" method to break his higher level of Genjutsu. But in order for Itachi and Sasuke to act as a "second man" they needed to touch each other. The effects of this Genjutsu made that impossible, thus why they had to Genjutsu each other, acting as wireless way.

The manga proved that Sasuke and Itachi worked as a second man to break each other out, meaning it will take more then just pain to escape.



Each post I made it easier to understand.

Read everything together before responding. It's all one piece.

First and Foremost, there are 3-5 methods of breaking genjutsu.

• The first, like you said, is to
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  with your own chakra. It doesn't solely matter on how much chakra you have, or how powerful chakra it is, thi sis dependant on your skills in with chakra control. This is evident by the fact that Naruto, who has leagues more chakra than itachi,
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  a very simple finger genjutsu. As a genjutsu specialist, Itachi is leagues better at this than Naruto.
• The second method is partner, Like you stated. It can either be another person, or a bijuu who pours their own chakra into you.
• The third method is to use pain to break the genjutsu. (seen multiple times throughout the manga)
• A forth method is layering another genjutsu ontop of one to over-ride/break a pre-existing one. This can be seen with
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  , The uchiha bro's MS genjutsu on each other, or when Sasuke broke itachi's genjutsu with his own or when Kakashi cancelled out Obito's genjutsu with his.
• And, There's also genjutsu reversal which is another method of breaking out of the genjutsu( as seen with itachi vs kurenai).

*You could probably argue against the last two as methods, but that's not the point here anyway*

Now, out of all of this, The Pain method and the 'Layered Genjutsu' have both been shown to counter tayuya's sound gen. That doesn't mean they're the only ones that work. Why is that? Because itachi's already shown that a very skilled genjutsu user can reverse a genjutsu that another person needs to use the pain method to break out of.

Furthermore, relating to the bolded, You're now stating that this is Kabuto's genjutsu when it is not. This is infact still all tayuya.

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The only input kabuto has in this is to supply the Sage mode which acts as a better version of CS-V2. CS-V2 was already shown to give immense power, so stating it can boost tayuya's power to such magnitudes already needs some proof of it's own.
We saw CS-V2 allow;

• Jirobo to completely
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  in the sky - something on a magnitude only sage mode users have repeated(throwing around large bodies).
• It allowed kimimaro to
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  from lee without budging even a millimeter where earlier Lee's hits could
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  .
• We even saw CS-V2 to singlehandedly allow sasuke to
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  .
  
  The same juugo who Kabuto has constantly gathering Senjutsu for him, is the same juugo whose own Senjutsu was pre-baked into these cursed marks. These Cursed marks are already a pseudo Sage mode except their power is very limited while a true sage's power is only limited to how much senjutsu they want to draw in. To suggest Sage Mode enhances tayuya, over CS-V2, this much is unsupported.

The fact is, Shikamaru, with his 3 in genjutsu, already broke tayuya's genjutsu with pain. Nothing suggests Itachi can't do the same thing.

---

You then go on to compare this genjutsu with Tsukuyomi which is blantantly wrong. Even with that analogy, you'd still be wrong, because did Sasuke not already break tsukuyomi on his own? Right there, with your own analogy, even tsukuyomi can be bested by one person. But, back to the point. Sound gen, and genjutsu in general is nothing like tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi isn't powerful just because it's too powerful for anyone to break; It's powerful because it's too fast for anyone to have time implement any genjutsu breaking methods. With only 1 second, you don't have time to use partner method, genjutsu kai method, genjutsu reversal method, etc. You either bust the genjutsu with the help of uchiha blood and an MS(like itachi stated), or you don't at all. Tayuya's genjutsu is nothing like this unless you can prove it has some kind of time manipulation.

---

Further, you state we can't compare kurenai's genjutsu to tayuya. Umm.. yes we can, they're both the same level.

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Yet, what did Itachi say about it?

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That's right, he essentially called base tayuya's level of genjutsu complete rubbish.

Now, I'd like to make note of a few points.
1) Itachi reversed a B-Rank(tayuya level) genjutsu without batting an eye
2) Kurenai( 5 in genjutsu ) needed to use pain method to break out of a genjutsu that itachi called completely fodder
3) Shikamaru( 3 in genjutsu ) used pain method to break out of an enhanced form of a level of genjutsu itachi called completely fodder

All of this tells us 1 fact, Unenhanced, this genjutsu is rubbish to Itachi. Under the influence of SM, it's still only sub-par. In no way, does SM boost Tayuya's genjutsu so much that it goes from a level where shitty-at-genjutsu shikamaru can break it, to a level where itachi can't. This isn't Frog Genjutsu and That's not possible.
If Sage mode's enhancement was that powerful, naruto wouldn't need BM in this war, SM should have logically dropped him right on SO6P level.

The simple fact you like to ignore is that Itachi was looking out for Sasuke. If he broke the genjutsu, he'd still have to tell sasuke to look into his eye to break his. Or, he'd break it and still have to dash over to sasuke and stab him to break it. Or, he'd still have to dash over to sasuke and pour his chakra into it. Itachi used the logically quickest method.

---

TL;DR; I've made my case. Unless you can provide a single shred of evidence to state that pain method can't break SM tayuya's sound genjutsu, when a 3 in genjutsu shinobi could break a slightly weaker version, then you can't claim it beats itachi.

*Unless you provide conclusive evidence why itachi cannot break tayuya's sound gen, you've lost this debate. We can either move on to the rest of kabuto's arsenal, so you can prove why kabuto wins, or I can move on to something else that doesn't have me repeating the same thing.
I'm not saying Itachi is above Kabuto in tier/Top 10 list, but I am saying sound gen is definitely not winning this. Like you kindly pointed out, I already stated i know little about kabuto, Granted numbers made me realize a while back he's a lot stronger than I gave him credit for, but sound gen isn't kabuto, it's tayuya.*

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I read through it all.

Here are your points that you pointed out.

1. "That is not Kabuto's genjutsu"

Answer: Kabuto's borrowed power is his, period. Even if I mention Tayuya or Kabuto the whole point is that Kabuto is using the Genjutsu in his possession. He is the one manipulating her. You can see Kabuto's personal binding method inside the genjutsu via snakes. The fact that they share both body, and Kabuto is domain, does not matter how I bring up if its his or not.

2. "You need proof that CS is by far inferior to Sage Mode".

Answer: Did you know that there are Curse Mode inferior to Curse Mode? Kabuto stated this[

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][

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]. Not only is Tayuya CM inferior to another CM user, Kabuto already explains training to learn how to use Sage Mode is more powerful then using Curse [

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]. Pretension-an allegation of doubtful value. An aspiration or intention that may or may not reach fulfillment. This is how Kabuto view is comparing the CM to Sage Mode[

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].

-All Curse Mode does is receives increased chakra levels and physical capabilities. You pointed them out to the users who used Curse Mode already so I don't need to break this down on how, it worked for each individual..... Each of these characters, including Sasuke, had proven this. Jirobo couldn't increase his strength unless he had more chakra. Sakon couldn't manipulate his cells the way he can, unless he has more chakra support. Tayuya can't use her genjutsu in her state unless CM gives her chakra tens-fold, Sasuke can't use Dragon Fire Ball[

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][

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], since he didn't have the Seal chakra boost (which he never displayed again, ever.)(MS chakra is questionable, Most liekly EMS chakra level can make him do it now).

-Sage Mode on the other hand With Sage Mode you are in harmony with the nature around you are borrowing that power, which if mastered, has no repercussions unlike the curse seal. You also gain an unlimited amount of power (or you're at least limited to the amount of power that the earth and nature can give you but it is safe to say that the earth and nature has far more chakra then Orochimaru(seal) or any human existence). One top of that, brand new sensory, increase strength, speed, Jutsu, [

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]. And for this to be effective, you need requirements in order to gain this power [

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].


Conclusion: CM does not boost the attack it's self. It boost your chakra to enable to unlock a "higher level of tech" to perform. Both Sage Mode and CM come from the same source, senjutsu, both these abilities have different effects.

3. "Pain method counters Tayuya's genjutsu, period."

Hoping you get #number 2. So no point of pointing out how Shikimaru personally succeeding. (Tayuya jutsu effect is much different then Kurenai)

4."EjBlack you analogy is wrong. The effects of Tsukuyomi is way different and more challenging to beat."

Hoping you get 2. As Sage Mode boost is by far superior in effects then the original user.

5. "Both Kurenai and Tayuya's genjutsu use is B-rank. Itachi already countered a B-rank Genjutsu alone. He even said it's weak level."

Answer: Sorry that doesn't prove anything.
The purpose of rank was not to tell how powerful the technique or the superiority level, but the determine the difficulty and experience for performing this jutsu. I don't feel like pulling up Databook, where Kishi explains the "chain of logic". It had something to do with when both jutsu's clash which one will be Superior. He gave two explains. Itachi Fire vs Sasuke's. Kakuzu's Lightening vs Kakashi's. Your point shatters here:

-Kakashi's Raikiri is S-rank
-Kakuzu's Gian is B-rank.

Both tied in power.

There really isn't to say for this point. Other then your wrong, and has nothing to do with the personal effect's of Kurenai genjutsu and Tayuya's effect in genjutsu.

Do I need to personally break them down?

6."If Sage mode's enhancement was that powerful, naruto wouldn't need BM in this war,"

Answer: Naruto already admitted he need SM, due to have Pros that benefit him in certain situation in the war. Don't exaggerate on the main points givin in this discussion.

7."You ignored Itachi's state of mind, the reason he didn't break it by himself"

No I didn't, and second it doesn't matter his state of mind. It has nothing to do with the effects of Kabuto's genjutsu. Itachi understood the effects, Sasuke is also very bright and understood when Itachi ask Sasuke to counter the effects together. You are also simply underrating Sasuke if you think he can do everything you just explain, how Itachi can do alone, when Sasuke has gotten way better with Genjutsu. WIth just 3 tome Sasuke at the time, gave him a 4 in Genjutsu.

In thee end the manga is right. Both Itachi and Sasuke needed to defeat this genjutsu through helping each other out. It will take more then just pain to break this genjutsu. Edo Itachi and Sasuke understood that.

There.

P.S. when you feel like it, I also gave many options of how he can beat Itachi:

1.Flooding the field with Bone forest, becomes home advantage: Bones can spike on underneath Sussanoo. Or Kabuto can bone spawn and plan his next move

2. Doton Doro. I added combos into the list to successfully trap Itachi. Sage Senjutsu dramatic gives it a better chakra absorption frame.

3. Doki Spirits. I made a premise on how it can be useful. The quote I added broke down how it can be dangerous on Kabuto's possession, and defeated it misconceptions, like Shikimaru's "speed" dodge them.

4. I brought Manda II into this (and I could of said summoning spam too)

Web Spam[

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] According to Sasuke (He even...Behind us!). Something Amaterasu cant fully be spam in this condition. Nor, not having Sasuke having his back here.

*Even you have not shared anything to show/explain how Itachi even stands a chance/how to beat Kabuto*

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

itachi was an edo and couldn't feel pain.. this is why he couldn't break the genjutsu alone.. i thought this was pretty obvious U_U living itachi simply bites his lip (since we saw him talk to sasuke it's obvious that he can move his teeth in the genjutsu)

 

[Ababeel]

Tayuya's genjutsu is useless here since Hiruzen can use his wind jutsu against the sound just like how Temari did it before.

 

[EZQ]

There are still some people who think Itachi > Kabuto? OMFG

Kabuto wins med diff, Hiruzen gets soloed the first second and Itachi is taken after that with sound genjutsu or that jutsu he uses to blind the opponent, Itachi could only mantain one susano arm when that jutsu hit him.

 

[EZQ]

itachi was an edo and couldn't feel pain.. this is why he couldn't break the genjutsu alone.. i thought this was pretty obvious U_U living itachi simply bites his lip (since we saw him talk to sasuke it's obvious that he can move his teeth) and the genjutsu is broken

LOL you totally changed my mind on that subject, Itachi can easely get out of sound genjutsu, i never tought of that.

Anyways Kabuto wins.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Spoiler

I read through it all.

Here are your points that you pointed out.

1. "That is not Kabuto's genjutsu"

Answer: Kabuto's borrowed power is his, period. Even if I mention Tayuya or Kabuto the whole point is that Kabuto is using the Genjutsu in his possession. He is the one manipulating her. You can see Kabuto's personal binding method inside the genjutsu via snakes. The fact that they share both body, and Kabuto is domain, does not matter how I bring up if its his or not.

2. "You need proof that CS is by far inferior to Sage Mode".

Answer: Did you know that there are Curse Mode inferior to Curse Mode? Kabuto stated this[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]. Not only is Tayuya CM inferior to another CM user, Kabuto already explains training to learn how to use Sage Mode is more powerful then using Curse [

You must be registered for see links

]. Pretension-an allegation of doubtful value. An aspiration or intention that may or may not reach fulfillment. This is how Kabuto view is comparing the CM to Sage Mode[

You must be registered for see links

].

-All Curse Mode does is receives increased chakra levels and physical capabilities. You pointed them out to the users who used Curse Mode already so I don't need to break this down on how, it worked for each individual..... Each of these characters, including Sasuke, had proven this. Jirobo couldn't increase his strength unless he had more chakra. Sakon couldn't manipulate his cells the way he can, unless he has more chakra support. Tayuya can't use her genjutsu in her state unless CM gives her chakra tens-fold, Sasuke can't use Dragon Fire Ball[

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

], since he didn't have the Seal chakra boost (which he never displayed again, ever.)(MS chakra is questionable, Most liekly EMS chakra level can make him do it now).

-Sage Mode on the other hand With Sage Mode you are in harmony with the nature around you are borrowing that power, which if mastered, has no repercussions unlike the curse seal. You also gain an unlimited amount of power (or you're at least limited to the amount of power that the earth and nature can give you but it is safe to say that the earth and nature has far more chakra then Orochimaru(seal) or any human existence). One top of that, brand new sensory, increase strength, speed, Jutsu, [

You must be registered for see links

]. And for this to be effective, you need requirements in order to gain this power [

You must be registered for see links

].


Conclusion: CM does not boost the attack it's self. It boost your chakra to enable to unlock a "higher level of tech" to perform. Both Sage Mode and CM come from the same source, senjutsu, both these abilities have different effects.

3. "Pain method counters Tayuya's genjutsu, period."

Hoping you get #number 2. So no point of pointing out how Shikimaru personally succeeding. (Tayuya jutsu effect is much different then Kurenai)

4."EjBlack you analogy is wrong. The effects of Tsukuyomi is way different and more challenging to beat."

Hoping you get 2. As Sage Mode boost is by far superior in effects then the original user.

5. "Both Kurenai and Tayuya's genjutsu use is B-rank. Itachi already countered a B-rank Genjutsu alone. He even said it's weak level."

Answer: Sorry that doesn't prove anything.
The purpose of rank was not to tell how powerful the technique or the superiority level, but the determine the difficulty and experience for performing this jutsu. I don't feel like pulling up Databook, where Kishi explains the "chain of logic". It had something to do with when both jutsu's clash which one will be Superior. He gave two explains. Itachi Fire vs Sasuke's. Kakuzu's Lightening vs Kakashi's. Your point shatters here:

-Kakashi's Raikiri is S-rank
-Kakuzu's Gian is B-rank.

Both tied in power.

There really isn't to say for this point. Other then your wrong, and has nothing to do with the personal effect's of Kurenai genjutsu and Tayuya's effect in genjutsu.

Do I need to personally break them down?

6."If Sage mode's enhancement was that powerful, naruto wouldn't need BM in this war,"

Answer: Naruto already admitted he need SM, due to have Pros that benefit him in certain situation in the war. Don't exaggerate on the main points givin in this discussion.

---

7."You ignored Itachi's state of mind, the reason he didn't break it by himself"

No I didn't, and second it doesn't matter his state of mind. It has nothing to do with the effects of Kabuto's genjutsu. Itachi understood the effects, Sasuke is also very bright and understood when Itachi ask Sasuke to counter the effects together. You are also simply underrating Sasuke if you think he can do everything you just explain, how Itachi can do alone, when Sasuke has gotten way better with Genjutsu. WIth just 3 tome Sasuke at the time, gave him a 4 in Genjutsu.

In thee end the manga is right. Both Itachi and Sasuke needed to defeat this genjutsu through helping each other out. It will take more then just pain to break this genjutsu. Edo Itachi and Sasuke understood that.

There.

P.S. when you feel like it, I also gave many options of how he can beat Itachi:

1.Flooding the field with Bone forest, becomes home advantage: Bones can spike on underneath Sussanoo. Or Kabuto can bone spawn and plan his next move

2. Doton Doro. I added combos into the list to successfully trap Itachi. Sage Senjutsu dramatic gives it a better chakra absorption frame.

3. Doki Spirits. I made a premise on how it can be useful. The quote I added broke down how it can be dangerous on Kabuto's possession, and defeated it misconceptions, like Shikimaru's "speed" dodge them.

4. I brought Manda II into this (and I could of said summoning spam too)

Web Spam[

You must be registered for see links

] According to Sasuke (He even...Behind us!). Something Amaterasu cant fully be spam in this condition. Nor, not having Sasuke having his back here.

*Even you have not shared anything to show/explain how Itachi even stands a chance/how to beat Kabuto*

1. I don't know why you said this. This is completely irrelevant because It's still tayuya performing the jutsu. So, wow, Kabuto's borrowed power is his; I never said it wasn't? Whoopty doo, it's still tayuya performing the genjutsu.

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2. Good points, but didn't prove the end results that genjutsu breaking methods, other than 'genjutsu layering' wouldn't work. Yes I know There's CS weaker than CS. This in no way implies SM can transition Tayuya from being unable to bind a genin to being able to bind an S-Class shinobi that not even orochimaru can bind. Again, this isn't frog genjutsu which is being performed by 2 master sages. This is just some genjutsu that requires a power boost to work in the first place.

*Btw; The fact sasuke broke it with MS genjutsu implies MS genjutsu is already stronger than it as you can't break a stronger genjutsu with a weaker one.

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3. Yea, you're right, Kurenai's Genjutsu traps you in a

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, completely disconnecting you from reality. Tayuya's jutsu just binds you and casts an illusion. Shikamaru could still use jutsu, itachi/sasuke could still talk and see etc.

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4. Are you serious right now? You're comparing Sage enhanced genjutsu to a genjutsu that completely breaks time? Let me show you what

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.
All time
All of space
All Matter
Everything in this world I control
You're equating a binding genjtusu, with a power boost, To a just that basically makes you god in your own world and can completely break reality, literally clone you 1000 times, and link all that suffering.
Can you talk in the real world during tsukuyomi? No. Can you see, even with a sharingan? No. Can you think in the real world? Smell? Use jutsu? No, no, no. How is this anywhere near what tayuya's jutsu does? Seriously, Come on. You've gained some of my respect thus far with point 2(it was a good counter), but don't lose it here.

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5. And difficulty of a jutsu gives an idea of the power. The 'chain of logic' you're referring to most likely implies the nature cycle, Fuuton > Raiton > Doton > ... etc. Tayuya's genjutsu is a b rank after opening CS-V2 (like point 2 made me realise).

Rasengan is an A rank jutsu like chidori; They're both high probability kill jutsu's if they hit. And they both cancel each other out (no nature advantages, just rank).
Rasenshuriken is an S-Rank jutsu, and it's literally a 1 shot if it hits you.
Substitution jutsu is an E-Rank jutsu because it's completely useless to anyone but a genin.

Your example was a good attempt, but even it's wrong. Kakashi used raikiri(his only shown raiton) to completely neutralize kakuzu's attacks. They didn't tie because Kakashi's plan wasn't to overpower kakuzu's attack and launch back his own, kakashi used his raikiri to absorb the power of kakuzu's gian which

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. Just because kakashi didn't keep his raikiri going, or because his hands were ripping from having lightning literally inches from his palm, doesn't mean gian tied with it, it just means kakashi got the job done and didn't feel like, you know, burning all his chakra away with chakra-heavy[SUP][1][/SUP] raikiri. If they tied, it would look more like naruto and sasuke's Rasengan/Chidori clashes where both jutsu's power would simply be released upon impact (an explosion), not one jutsu completely being negated. Therefore, yes, Raikiri is more powerful as rank suggests.

[SUP][1][/SUP] I don't feel like scan hunting for this, because I hate scan hunting. But, Kakashi said he can only use about 3 raikiri in a day, and he already used 1 before. It's very chakra intense.

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6. I'm not exaggerating. I'm stating a simple deduction.
Tayuya's Genjutsu is B-Rank. correct.
A genin with 3 in genjutsu could break it. correct.
SM increases her genjutsu. correct.

Now, you're suggesting it can now hold an S-Class, 5 Genjutsu, sharingan wielding shinobi. To leap from genin to that tier of power requires massive levels of power increase. If SM gave naruto that much power, there would be no point in him training to get KCM or BM, or even using it 90% of the time in the war. SM would have been thousands of times better due to this supposed massive power boost ontop of the no exhaustion. Naruto already showed he could keep getting back into SM, so that's not the problem.

Just to further stress this. When SM naruto launches his senpou: Oodama rasenshuriken at madara

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was the damage scale by powering in SM. Whereas, a base rasenshuriken could already do

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. That's no where near the required leap in power to bind itachi.
I'll go even further. To stress this point even more, Madara gave us an idea of how much power SM gives you. In his own words,

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. The power leap you're suggesting is completely unsupported.

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7. Won't bother going over this again because you're reading a different page. You keep stating "itachi said together" When

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is how itachi says "together", not how he forcefully commanded sasuke.

It's apparent There is nothing more to be said on this matter.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

1. Because you are trying to imply the strength of Sage is the same strength as the original, or doesn't make a difference.

2. This is simply a bias response, when the manga already implied that it did, two to be exact. There isn't much to say as you keep trying to lower the genjutsu's power as much as possible to disprove its effects.

3. Tayuya does the same realm move. Infact she said she can add more then one stimulation in level 2[

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], but decided to specifically give one, her best torched binding, via the one you see here. She said not only that but this[

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]. It halts the opponents jutsu (Seen here, Shadow possession slowly going away[

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], Shikimaru manipulated his shadow one last time before it's gone) while binding them. Kabuto did the same to Uchiha's, halting their move, via Sussanoo[

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], the genjutsu restricts performances too.

Shikimaru, 5 intelligence, thought what was the best situation to break this genjutsu, which Tayuya commented[

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]. Not only that, but Tayuya later on in her battle with Shikimaru, she decided to continuously use genjutsu again. Shikimaru, implying he got lucky in his situation (with his shadows still in hand), and will not get the same chance, the second time beating it[

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][

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].

4. I didn't compare its effects, I compare the analogy as Kabuto genjutsu use of Tayuya is superior to the original, as Itachi Sharingan genjutsu is superior to other Sharingan genjutsu.

5. No this is what I am talking about [

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]. Everything else you are stating about ranking is taken out of context, when talking about "power". So I really don't need to break down your excuses from the rest of the context.

6. Your not making sense, as the manga already proved that it did. Your using ranking again as excuses of how to beat it, which isn't helping you at all. Bringing up Naruto is going off topic so I won't even defend him, and isn't proving of disproving anything.

7. Lol no, Itachi is a smart person, he understands figure of speech. He is talking to more then one person in the context. Nobody is forcing anybody to come to the conclusion that Itachi is right and we should listen to how to counter.
As the context with Sasuke, he only needs to refer to his brother. Sasuke is also a bright person, who doesn't need his brother to break it down for him. You still have no proof he can do it alone, or even how he can do it alone.

PS: I already did show how he can, with the list I gave. I gave many options. While Itachi is very limited on how to deal with them, while his crap stamina and MS stress is on top of each use.

 

[AGoodBoy]

I'm just going to ignore your genjutsu counter because you can't even state how SM boosts tayuya to the levels of being unable to bind shikamaru to being able binding itachi. It's just speculation and denial.

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Itachi's speed

Spoiler

Along with it being a solid 5 in DB, itachi has shown tremendous feat...

1. Itachi
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   two speeding shuriken, while sick.
2. Sick, dying Itachi outsped sasuke[
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   ][
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   ->
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   ]; Who was fast enough to dodge
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   ,
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   ,
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   , naruto, a CM fodder, etc.
3. He
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   Kurenai and he's already
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4. He completely
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   Kakashi's precaution water clone. Kakashi was so stunned by his hand speed that he made a water clone, under the disguise of his water wall, and submerged himself; Then, that same water clone got blitzed by the real itachi before
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   itachi's shadow clone.
   Somewhere during that, kakashi figured it was a mere shadow clone that initially blitzed him with handspeed.
5. Itachi completely speed blitzes Bee and Naruto. Bee and naruto couldn't finish swinging their hands/weapons before itachi was already next to nagato. In fact, bee and naruto were still in the exact same position, exact same stance while itachi's crossed more than 5 body lengths.[
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   ]
6. even while bee's attacking with his deadly 7 sword dance, which decked sasuke, itachi not only parries every sword, he also eventually shushins away from bee. [
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   ]He shushins so fast that he's a mere blurred haze; and, that's Bee who's already a speed demon.
7. Even kabuto was
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   . Itachi crosses an entire body length and swings a sword; All kabuto has time do is barely move his head to the point his still lost a horn. Regardless of what he said about 'these weren't here before', Itachi still moved fast enough to cut it, when just moments ago kabuto effortlessly dodged a
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   . It's clearly obvious that kabuto dodged due to heighted DSM reflexes and sensing not even speed. Same way SSM naruto could dodge the 3rd raikage when he's obviously slower.
   
   There are plenty more, but I honestly can't be arsed.

Sawarbi no mei

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I already countered this. Lee was able to react to this. Gaara was able to react to this.
They were both leagues slower than itachi( see: speed feats ).

All itachi does is dodged the spikes as the rise, then stand on one the same way ninja can walk up

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,

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, etc. When kabuto pops out of bone to

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, itachi simply

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and

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. Kabuto's end is already near.

If you really want, Itachi can just clear it with a susano'o slash. But, of course, that's what you want to hear because then you can say "MS strain", "stamina". So, this is option B, option A is more viable.

Itachi has no reason to have susano'o up before this launches; He's alive, he doesn't have the nonchallance of being an edo where he could just squander MS techs with no reserves. Alive itachi simply doesn't camp MS like his edo form, after all Itachi survived years, with MS, without going blind, while in an S-class criminal group, while fighting against other S-class opponents. Sasuke survived less than a week with his MS.

Doton Doro

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The guy has to put his palms on the ground. Wait for earth to encircle his opponent. Then wait for the dome to form above them.

Itachi simply jumps out of this before it completes. Stating otherwise is stating this jutsu can catch sasuke, naruto, bee, ay, etc etc etc.
see speed feats

Doki Spirits

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Itachi just dodges these; see speed feats. They're not fast, and the doki demons aren't under the effect of SM. They're completely independent summons, as fodder as they were in part 1.

Your premise relied on 'going under susano'o' Which implies itachi will have susano'o up to fight extremely slow, extremely weak ghosts. Itachi's shown speeds around the level of V1 ay, Bee, kcm naruto, Sasuke, kakashi, etc. These ghosts can now touch them also...?

These ghosts just get fodderized. Itachi has 0 reason to have susano'o up at this point; It's not one of the scenarios that require it.

Summoning

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This is useless. They get

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and used against kabuto.
Kabuto either has to

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them, or go out of his way to break the genjutsu on them while itachi's already attacking him. That's impractical that kabuto's going to go fight manda 2, just to break a genjutsu, while itachi's fighting. Especially considering as soon as kabuto dispels the genjutsu, itachi can just re-apply it.

Summonings are useless.

Kidomaru

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Honestly, out in the open, he just dodged this( see: speed feats).
Even Neji was able to

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some of it, and neji's a stationary fighter with a 3 point speed. PEople like itachi, minato(no ftg), naruto, bee, sasuke, ay, are all around the same speed margin. If this can catch itachi, then, basically, kidomaru can catch all these guys.

Or, Itachi can just use amaterasu like manga. That way you can use "MS strain", "stamina" as a defence.

Final point to note; The only attack in kabuto's entire arsenal which definitely needs susano'o out in the open is...

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because it's too crippling for itachi to be able to move and defend himself.

- Sound gen is broken.
- Muki tensei is easily dodged in the open because there's no ceiling to 'sandwich'
- Sound 5 jutsu's are all dodged
- Orochimaru is dodged
- Even

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scenario is impossible. Notice how, page before, itachi drops his susano'o while standing right in the mouth of orochimaru. Plot induced stupidity like this only works to advance the plot. Someone like Itachi who's touted for intelligence won't do something like this normally. That's like kabuto, someone else touted for intelligence, while standing right infront of itachi, drops his defences and 'prepares a jutsu'.

 

[BlacLord™]

Izanami GG because really, that's the best option.

With having full knowledge, you're basically repeating the already-done fight except you're changing EMS Sasuke for a weaker partner.

@AGoodBoy Your scans in the outspeeding Sasuke section isn't the feat he had, in your provided scans, Sasuke is seen reacting to Itachi's assault, it was

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But the whole fight was just them getting on top of each other over and over again anyway. (Sexual connotation not intended.)