Misconceptions on Naruto SM (Subconscious mind vs Reality) Must Read!!!!

[Lightning Release]

Sorry, I remember a Naruto clone going into SM during a fight with an edo. lol.

/thread.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Sorry, I remember a Naruto clone going into SM during a fight with an edo. lol.

/thread.

Read the thread before you comment. It's about Naruto(original) not being able to transfer his SM to clones already summoned without SM. All you stated was a way for his clone to go into SM and if you read through the comments, I say it myself.

Lol this is where me and you differ. You are attempting to prove something you can not. I'm simply pointing out to you that the manga suggests that you could be wrong. Not once did I make a statement claiming anything to be 100% correct. I've merely pointed out what can be suggested. I'll take this slow for you.

Spoiler

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This is when Naruto tries to summon one clone too many. Notice that you can see KCM chakra floating around both the original and the clone. This tells us that the clone was actually summoned in KCM since the original was originally in KCM, but the clone ended up getting booted out because the original had used too much chakra to maintain KCM anymore. The fact that both the clone AND the original got booted out suggests that the same thing happened to the other clones as well. This right here is the only example the manga gives us of what happens to a clone's chakra mode if the original loses theirs.

Spoiler

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Here we see the original Naruto re enter KCM after losing it

Spoiler

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Now FINALLY, we see another clone, and it it is in KCM. However can you prove that it too didn't lose it's KCM mode when the original did? No, you can not, because we don't see a clone until after Naruto re enters it. But if the idea that whatever happens to the original happens to the clones is true, then this clone lost it's KCM mode and regained it after Naruto re entered KCM

Can I prove this? No, because again, the journey this clone took to get to Gaara was off panel, so there's no way for you nor I to prove our case. But unfortunately for you, the only evidence we have of what happens to a clone's chakra mode after the original loses it shows that the clone loses it. So it is suggested in the manga that you are incorrect.

This is my argument in full detail, pages aplenty. I'm done with you after this kid. Anything you say beyond this point will be pointless

**Edit** I'm sorry that last part was a bit rude I'll admit. Not to say that your words are pointless, it's just that I know you're going to attempt to come back in some way, and as this final comment explains fairly well, nothing you do or say can prove you right, and every bit of evidence so far either has done nothing to help your case, or more to help the opposing. So there really isn't any more either of us can do to make our points

What it came down to was my opinions to your possibilities and if you had to make clear statements, from evidence, off the book without the possibilities, I believe you would agree with me on some things.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Xāvî1]

That's Kurama's chakra dude



What fail would that be?

since kurama is inside naruto its part of naruto's power..

 

[Smd]

What ever you say.

your supposed to post a troll comment bashing op for providing you with the truth.

op- he also didnt even beat kurama himself, he need his mom to help

 

[cptenn94]

Well you are right in that perspective, because it's been prove that the energy a clone gathers when it enter SM can be transferred to the original. But the original cannot transfer his SM to another clone that has already been summoned without SM. The clone itself would have to enter SM itself.




I'm sorry. I don't quite understand if you're agreeing with me or not.




That is fine. I never said a clone couldn't summon another clone in SM if the clone itself is in SM. Yes that can happen. I was talking about the Naruto(original) transferring his SM to a clone that has already been summoned without SM.

Since kage bushin are just splits of chakra from the original, and as tobirama clearly pointed out the clones are all still connected through chakra to naruto, he SHOULD be able to sit and absorb nature chakra continueally and allow his clones to enter sm. There is no evidence to refute this. It would probably be very risky to do, and would just be more of a waste to do. It is much easier to create a clone army, and then have you and a few clones fight, while the rest enter sm.

So according to he physics shown by kishi, it is POSSIBLE for naruto to sit and absorb nature energy, and transfer the sage energy to the clones. But it would probably take much longer than if the clones just absorbed the energy themselves. Nothing you have said or posted actually denies the possibility of him being able to do this.(nor can you post anything to refute it)

 

[Troyg39]

What it came down to was my opinions to your possibilities and if you had to make clear statements, from evidence, off the book without the possibilities, I believe you would agree with me on some things.

But that's just my opinion.

Glad you finally understand that you proved nothing. And just so you know, the only thing I would agree with you on is the idea that Naruto should not be able to do everything he can do in his mind in reality. I just don't agree with your idea that he can't transfer chakra to his existing clones, as it's been shown numerous times in the manga the clones react to the original. I have provided manga evidence to support this heavily, as well as used what you tried to say was evidence for your claim against you. The difference in my "possibilities" and your opinion is that every single scan that was posted in this thread at any given time I've used to to support my claim successfully, while none of them do anything to support your opinion.

If I had to make a clear statement, on or off the book, without possibilities, I would say that if the original Naruto were to enter SM or any chakra mode for that matter, his already existing clones would do the same, as the manga states what happens to the original happens to the clone, and the manga also depicted a clone who was summoned in KCM (technicallly making it already existing) and then losing it's KCM after being summoned (again, as evidenced by the dispersing KCM chakra around the clone and original). I understand why you originally felt the way you did about this, as I don't think it's fair for Naruto to be able to do something like this in reality either, but I show no bias towards any character. The manga clearly suggests he can do so in real life, so that is what I believe he's capable of. It doesn't get much clearer than that

 

[AlphaScythian]

Isnt it all big BS genjutsu fight?

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Since kage bushin are just splits of chakra from the original, and as tobirama clearly pointed out the clones are all still connected through chakra to naruto, he SHOULD be able to sit and absorb nature chakra continueally and allow his clones to enter sm. There is no evidence to refute this. It would probably be very risky to do, and would just be more of a waste to do. It is much easier to create a clone army, and then have you and a few clones fight, while the rest enter sm.

So according to he physics shown by kishi, it is POSSIBLE for naruto to sit and absorb nature energy, and transfer the sage energy to the clones. But it would probably take much longer than if the clones just absorbed the energy themselves. Nothing you have said or posted actually denies the possibility of him being able to do this.(nor can you post anything to refute it)

If what you say is true then why would he need his clone to be dispersed if he could continuously transfer sage chakra to himself through his clone. If you say he could do it to his clone, then it should work the other way around to. In this case anyway. It would work alot better then actually dispersing the clones and allow him to stay in SM longer and more often.

Give me an answer for this please.

Glad you finally understand that you proved nothing. And just so you know, the only thing I would agree with you on is the idea that Naruto should not be able to do everything he can do in his mind in reality. I just don't agree with your idea that he can't transfer chakra to his existing clones, as it's been shown numerous times in the manga the clones react to the original. I have provided manga evidence to support this heavily, as well as used what you tried to say was evidence for your claim against you. The difference in my "possibilities" and your opinion is that every single scan that was posted in this thread at any given time I've used to to support my claim successfully, while none of them do anything to support your opinion.

If I had to make a clear statement, on or off the book, without possibilities, I would say that if the original Naruto were to enter SM or any chakra mode for that matter, his already existing clones would do the same, as the manga states what happens to the original happens to the clone, and the manga also depicted a clone who was summoned in KCM (technicallly making it already existing) and then losing it's KCM after being summoned (again, as evidenced by the dispersing KCM chakra around the clone and original). I understand why you originally felt the way you did about this, as I don't think it's fair for Naruto to be able to do something like this in reality either, but I show no bias towards any character. The manga clearly suggests he can do so in real life, so that is what I believe he's capable of. It doesn't get much clearer than that

I never said that he couldn't transfer chakra to an existing clone, that has been proven through Kurama. I said he can not transfer SM to an clone already summoned. Also you say every scan posted does nothing to support my argument. Well there you are wrong.

I have posted these two scans here:

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These scans right here prove that even if the original loses his chakra mode the clones can maintain theirs.


We also have evidence stating that when a clone loses his cloak he can't get it back.

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This page states it. The clone only has a certain amount of KCM and if it uses it all or loses it then it can't go back into that form. This also prove your logic wrong. You logic says that if the original lost his then the clone lost his to. That proves your possibility wrong about the clone being able to go back into that mode when Naruto(original) enters his again.

Isnt it all big BS genjutsu fight?

 

[salamander uchiha]

Naruto only had limits because he can't gather natural energy and move at the same time. The usual way to work around that problem is frog fusion where he fuses with ma and pa, however since he had kurama inside of him he couldn't do that. When he fought kurama though, his real body was sitting down and not moving so he no longer had the SM limit, it was as if he fused with ma and pa for that fight.


It was in no way shape or form a battle of willpower, it was a battle to rip kurama's chakra from it with one of the requirements to do so being not having any hatred in your heart. Naruto still had to defeat the beast.

Dont be absurd ma and pa gather it yes but they cant gather more than the one whom they give it too. Since itt still has to have balance with his own chakra in 1/3rd to become sage chakra otherwise hed vecome a statue. So he gathering it stionarily is no different from ma anx pa gathering it for him and that was narutos limit nothing to do with ma and pa alliwing him to gather more.
It was a battle of willpower whose will can subjigate who then he mentally pulled out the chakra since its impossible to pull chakra anyway. It was more of a seperation of kyubis will and chakra one being stored in naruto other in the cage. Nobody has the power to pull out the chakra unless its a greater force. Its similtude is obito vs jyubi just as jyubi was overwhelming obito kyubi was overwhelming naruto once the will of each of them won they were complete and could use the chakra as their own.

 

[Troyg39]

I never said that he couldn't transfer chakra to an existing clone

You sir, are a liar.

I misspoke, I meant they had Sage chakra infused in them.

The clone is infused with Sage chakra and it can still have it even after the original loses his. So you stating that the clones lose it completely is redundant. I meant the clones a myoboku had Sage chakra infused in them not the actual Mode, and if dispersed would have recharged Naruto.

Quotes from two of your comments on page 2. Word for word. When I refuted your argument about the clone on mt myoboku having the actual sage mode, you stated twice that your argument wasn't about the actual sage mode, but the sage chakra. Now you are trying to switch your argument back yet again

that has been proven through Kurama. I said he can not transfer SM to an clone already summoned. Also you say every scan posted does nothing to support my argument. Well there you are wrong.

I have posted these two scans here:

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These scans right here prove that even if the original loses his chakra mode the clones can maintain theirs.

You really aren't that bright at times you know that? Those two scans do not prove a thing, as I've already pointed out, because you aren't including the scan that shows him re entering KCM before we see the next clone

Spoiler

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How do you know that the other clone didn't lose it's KCM and regain it when the original re entered KCM? You don't do you, because we don't see what happens to the other clones when the original first lost it. But we do see what happened to one of them, IT LOST IT'S KCM. So we have evidence that at least one clone will lose it's chakra mode, while no evidence can fully support that the rest of them didn't, because Naruto re entered KCM before we got a chance to see what happened with the other clones. You have proven NOTHING.

We also have evidence stating that when a clone loses his cloak he can't get it back.

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This page states it. The clone only has a certain amount of KCM and if it uses it all or loses it then it can't go back into that form. This also prove your logic wrong. You logic says that if the original lost his then the clone lost his to. That proves your possibility wrong about the clone being able to go back into that mode when Naruto(original) enters his again.

Tell me, when did Naruto re enter KCM after these clones were created? To my knowledge, the original has maintained his most recent KCM this entire time. All you've proven is that the clones can indeed run out of KCM just like the original. But what you fail to realize is that what happens to the ORIGINAL resonates with the CLONES. Not the other way around. When Naruto lost KCM we SAW the clone lose it as well. But just because a clone loses it's KCM doesn't mean the original will. Naruto didn't exit and re enter KCM since those clones lost theirs, so their KCM didn't replenish. Again, what have you proven?

I bet your next argument will be "well why didn't the original just re-transfer KCM to his clone if he can transfer the modes between existing clones right?" The answer to that is the same reason we see Kurama giving the clone more chakra yet instead of using it to re enter KCM, Naruto does a Rasengan barrage, plot. None of this proves he can or can't do it either way. Either of us can only suggest, and so far I've been able to support my suggestions with EVERY page provided, including the ones you've thrown at me. I really am done with you after this because you've done enough lying, back peddling and gibbering already

 

[Johndoesknowall]

You sir, are a liar.



Quotes from two of your comments on page 2. Word for word. When I refuted your argument about the clone on mt myoboku having the actual sage mode, you stated twice that your argument wasn't about the actual sage mode, but the sage chakra. Now you are trying to switch your argument back yet again



You really aren't that bright at times you know that? Those two scans do not prove a thing, as I've already pointed out, because you aren't including the scan that shows him re entering KCM before we see the next clone

Spoiler

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How do you know that the other clone didn't lose it's KCM and regain it when the original re entered KCM? You don't do you, because we don't see what happens to the other clones when the original first lost it. But we do see what happened to one of them, IT LOST IT'S KCM. So we have evidence that at least one clone will lose it's chakra mode, while no evidence can fully support that the rest of them didn't, because Naruto re entered KCM before we got a chance to see what happened with the other clones. You have proven NOTHING.



Tell me, when did Naruto re enter KCM after these clones were created? To my knowledge, the original has maintained his most recent KCM this entire time. All you've proven is that the clones can indeed run out of KCM just like the original. But what you fail to realize is that what happens to the ORIGINAL resonates with the CLONES. Not the other way around. When Naruto lost KCM we SAW the clone lose it as well. But just because a clone loses it's KCM doesn't mean the original will. Naruto didn't exit and re enter KCM since those clones lost theirs, so their KCM didn't replenish. Again, what have you proven?

I bet your next argument will be "well why didn't the original just re-transfer KCM to his clone if he can transfer the modes between existing clones right?" The answer to that is the same reason we see Kurama giving the clone more chakra yet instead of using it to re enter KCM, Naruto does a Rasengan barrage, plot. None of this proves he can or can't do it either way. Either of us can only suggest, and so far I've been able to support my suggestions with EVERY page provided, including the ones you've thrown at me. I really am done with you after this because you've done enough lying, back peddling and gibbering already

No, I'm only continuing my argument. I stated that there was proof that if the original loses their chakra mode, the clone can still maintain theirs.

You call me a liar, but I always referred back to SM being transferred not just the chakra itself.

Don't call me a liar when you misunderstood a main point that my thread was about.

You're interpreting the scan I showed you wrong. I have showed you a scan of what happens when a clone loses KCM. He himself says he can not do it anymore. You are solely relying on the possibility that maybe the clone's cloak went off then went back on but you have shown nothing to support your evidence. So if you have any, show me since I have showed you.

This shows the original Naruto being forced/loses out of his cloak.

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This is him reentering it later.

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My scans I have posted do support what I am saying. You are basically in denial and you're closing your eyes every time evidence is thrown at you to support my argument.

What this really comes down to is you not wanting to admit that my opinion, with is supported by evidence I have shown, is stronger than your possibilities.

Evidence of mine:
I have proof that a clone can stay in KCM while the original isn't.
I have proof of why a clone can't enter KCM when it loses it.

The only thing you have is suggestions which state:
Maybe the clone chakra form left then came back when the original entered his again.
Anything that happens to the original, happens to the clones to.

Since you keep posting back, the next time you do please post scans refuting exactly what I said above.

 

[Troyg39]

Spoiler

No, I'm only continuing my argument. I stated that there was proof that if the original loses their chakra mode, the clone can still maintain theirs.

You call me a liar, but I always referred back to SM being transferred not just the chakra itself.

Don't call me a liar when you misunderstood a main point that my thread was about.

You're interpreting the scan I showed you wrong. I have showed you a scan of what happens when a clone loses KCM. He himself says he can not do it anymore. You are solely relying on the possibility that maybe the clone's cloak went off then went back on but you have shown nothing to support your evidence. So if you have any, show me since I have showed you.

This shows the original Naruto being forced/loses out of his cloak.

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This is him reentering it later.

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My scans I have posted do support what I am saying. You are basically in denial and you're closing your eyes every time evidence is thrown at you to support my argument.

What this really comes down to is you not wanting to admit that my opinion, with is supported by evidence I have shown, is stronger than your possibilities.

Evidence of mine:
I have proof that a clone can stay in KCM while the original isn't.
I have proof of why a clone can't enter KCM when it loses it.

The only thing you have is suggestions which state:
Maybe the clone chakra form left then came back when the original entered his again.
Anything that happens to the original, happens to the clones to.

Since you keep posting back, the next time you do please post scans refuting exactly what I said above.

1. Acknowledging the chakra itself can be transferred and saying that the actual mode can't be transferred is idiotic. The mode is nothing more than a physical representation of the chakra. Without Sage Chakra, you can't enter Sage Mode. Without Kyuubi chakra, you can't enter KCM. If you a clone loses it's chakra mode, it can re enter it as long as it gets new access to the chakra that the mode requires. It's the same way a clone can re enter Sage Mode by REGAINING THE CHAKRA, despite running out of it before. It does not matter how the clone gets the chakra, as long as it gets replenished, it can re enter the mode. And by you acknowledging that Naruto can indeed transfer chakra to his clones, you are also admitting that he can essentially give his clones the respective chakra modes as well

2.The scan you provided where a clone loses KCM specifically has him say that he USED UP TOO MUCH CHAKRA. He did not say that he can never re enter KCM again. He said his chakra was currently too low to return to the mode. As it's been shown in the manga before, the a clone can lose it's chakra mode and re enter it, as long as it's chakra gets replenished. And again, the chakra mode is a physical representation of the specific chakra. No KCM chakra equals no KCM. You are one interpreting the scan as the clone saying he can never re enter KCM mode ever again, even if he gets more KCM chakra, when that clearly is not the case

3.The scan I showed you of the original Naruto re entering KCM puts a major hole in your theory that a clone that loses KCM can't regain it if the original re enters KCM. Again, you are in denial because you fail to acknowledge this. The ONLY evidence we have of what actually happens to a clone when the original's chakra mode is affected shows that if the original loses it's chakra mode, the clone will as well. The clone that Naruto tried to summon right before losing KCM also lost it's KCM. Evidence of that is seen by the KCM chakra around the clone. Which means the clone was summoned in KCM, but then lost it's mode AFTER it was summoned. You have yet to directly address this because you have no counter for it. Since we don't see the other clones until after Naruto re enters the mode, then we do not know whether or not it was just that one clone that lost it's KCM or if the others did to. Logic would say that if one lost it's mode due to the original losing it, then the others did as well, but you don't want to follow that logic. Which is fine, all you have to do is provide one scan of a clone that is in a chakra mode WHILE THE ORIGINAL ISN'T AT THE SAME TIME. Since there is no scan of that, you have nothing to prove your opinion, which is what I've been trying to tell you this entire time. You've proven nothing

Bottom line, show me a scan where a clone is still in KCM or any other chakra mode while the original doesn't have a chakra mode active. The one scan you had showing a clone in KCM arriving at the battlefield with Gaara does not comply because Naruto clearly re entered KCM before we saw that clone. And if the MANGA FACT that what happens with the original resonates with the clones as explained by Tobirama is true, then that clone lost it's KCM just like the one that Naruto tried to summon, and then regained it when the original re entered it. There is no need for me to keep posting the same scans over and over. I'm sick of kids like you not knowing the difference between an opinion and fact.

Honestly, the fact that Naruto can transfer his Kyuubi chakra Mode cloak to people, who aren't even originally compatible with him or Kurama's chakra, should be enough to suggest to you that he could do the same thing with his clones, who are direct copies of the original, if he wanted to. So by your logic, he can transfer his chakra mode to people not directly associated with his chakra, but he can't do so for his own clones. You trying to differentiate between the chakra and the mode is again, the most idiotic thing I've ever heard anyone say.

 

[BlinkST]

Lol this is where me and you differ. You are attempting to prove something you can not. I'm simply pointing out to you that the manga suggests that you could be wrong. Not once did I make a statement claiming anything to be 100% correct. I've merely pointed out what can be suggested. I'll take this slow for you.

Spoiler

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This is when Naruto tries to summon one clone too many. Notice that you can see KCM chakra floating around both the original and the clone. This tells us that the clone was actually summoned in KCM since the original was originally in KCM, but the clone ended up getting booted out because the original had used too much chakra to maintain KCM anymore. The fact that both the clone AND the original got booted out suggests that the same thing happened to the other clones as well. This right here is the only example the manga gives us of what happens to a clone's chakra mode if the original loses theirs.

Naruto and the clone being booted out, means Naruto himself did not have enough chakra for both of them at the same time. I don't see how that means all of the clones are affected by that, since they have already taken KCM chakra and transformed. The clones in this case aren't taking the KCM chakra. They were made with KCM chakra from the get-go.

Either way, the OP is likely incorrect in assuming clones cannot re-enter KCM mode, since it was shown during

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that clones can enter Biju states.

A KCM clone would simply have to tap into the same chakra source after they run out.

 

[Troyg39]

Naruto and the clone being booted out, means Naruto himself did not have enough chakra for both of them at the same time. I don't see how that means all of the clones are affected by that, since they have already taken KCM chakra and transformed. The clones in this case aren't taking the KCM chakra. They were made with KCM chakra from the get-go.

Either way, the OP is likely incorrect in assuming clones cannot re-enter KCM mode, since it was shown during

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that clones can enter Biju states.

A KCM clone would simply have to tap into the same chakra source after they run out.

If that's that case, then why would the original Naruto have to lose it's KCM? The original had also already been in KCM mode to begin with, yet after trying to summon one clone too many, it not only knocked that clone out of KCM, but it even knocked the original out as well. The fact that the original was knocked out suggests that this is the reason the clone was knocked out of the mode as well, which means that the other clones likely had to feel the same effect. If the answer was simply "Naruto didn't have enough KCM chakra for himself and the extra clone" then only the extra clone should've been knocked out of KCM, not the original. Why not just knock two clones out of KCM? The manga states that everything starts with the original. What is happening with the original's chakra will resonate within the clones. So applying that to this situation, the other clones likely got booted out of KCM when the original did. That is why I said that in regards to KCM, which I only went that route because OP brought it up in an effort to switch subjects.

As far as the rest of your comment, I agree, as that is what I've been trying to convey to OP this entire time. Thank you for posting the link to that scan. The OP seems to be trying to separate the chakra from the actual mode, when in reality the chakra mode is nothing more than a result of the actual chakra. If a clone can gain access to the chakra specific to the mode, then it can enter the chakra mode. And since OP has already stated that Naruto can transfer chakra to his clones, then Naruto can also transfer the ability to enter the mode to them as well

 

[Johndoesknowall]

If that's that case, then why would the original Naruto have to lose it's KCM? The original had also already been in KCM mode to begin with, yet after trying to summon one clone too many, it not only knocked that clone out of KCM, but it even knocked the original out as well. The fact that the original was knocked out suggests that this is the reason the clone was knocked out of the mode as well, which means that the other clones likely had to feel the same effect.If the answer was simply "Naruto didn't have enough KCM chakra for himself and the extra clone" then only the extra clone should've been knocked out of KCM, not the original. Why not just knock two clones out of KCM? The manga states that everything starts with the original. What is happening with the original's chakra will resonate within the clones. So applying that to this situation, the other clones likely got booted out of KCM when the original did. That is why I said that in regards to KCM, which I only went that route because OP brought it up in an effort to switch subjects.

As far as the rest of your comment, I agree, as that is what I've been trying to convey to OP this entire time. Thank you for posting the link to that scan. The OP seems to be trying to separate the chakra from the actual mode, when in reality the chakra mode is nothing more than a result of the actual chakra. If a clone can gain access to the chakra specific to the mode, then it can enter the chakra mode. And since OP has already stated that Naruto can transfer chakra to his clones, then Naruto can also transfer the ability to enter the mode to them as well

@BOLD

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This explains what happens and also why he lost KCM. He strained it to far and lost it. The jutsu he was trying to do was to create another KCM clone. Instead he strained it to far and lost his KCM for himself and his clone that was created.

We just have to agree to disagree with each other.

Naruto and the clone being booted out, means Naruto himself did not have enough chakra for both of them at the same time. I don't see how that means all of the clones are affected by that, since they have already taken KCM chakra and transformed. The clones in this case aren't taking the KCM chakra. They were made with KCM chakra from the get-go.

Either way, the OP is likely incorrect in assuming clones cannot re-enter KCM mode, since it was shown during

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that clones can enter Biju states.

A KCM clone would simply have to tap into the same chakra source after they run out.

All of Naruto's shadow clones can go into biju states due to Kushina being pregnant with Naruto when she had Kurama sealed inside of her. Each clone holds Naruto's chakra and also Kurama's chakra that fused with him since pregnancy. Ginkaku and Kinkaku can do the same, but they can not go into KCM.


But KCM is a different state from the regular biju state. KCM is yang chakra from the kurama, which no other clone can obtain because they do not have the fox inside of them.

We've seen they need to be summoned from the original with Kurama's yang chaka to be able to enter KCM or come in contact with Naruto. If the clones run out of or lose KCM then they can not re-enter, on it's own to be specific.

Obviously if the clone comes in contact with the original Naruto again it could most likely recharge. (Which should be implied)

 

[BlinkST]

All of Naruto's shadow clones can go into biju states due to Kushina being pregnant with Naruto when she had Kurama sealed inside of her. Each clone holds Naruto's chakra and also Kurama's chakra that fused with him since pregnancy. Ginkaku and Kinkaku can do the same, but they can not go into KCM.

You're trying to come up with cop-out explanations in order to not admit the other guy is correct. Kurama's chakra was never described as "fusing" with Naruto's. It was said to be leaking into his own chakra supply, thanks to the nature of Minato's seal. There's no indication that it was ever "piling up" into his own body; the

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should have told you that. Naruto by all accounts, always had to

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(

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;

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;

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) chakra from Kurama in order to enter Biju states, or the seal was weak enough that he can draw on chakra more easily (Pt. II).

The chapter page I referenced has the clone unwillingly entering a Biju state, despite the clone not possessing Kurama himself. It's not different from a clone entering KCM.

 

[Troyg39]

@BOLD

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This explains what happens and also why he lost KCM. He strained it to far and lost it. The jutsu he was trying to do was to create another KCM clone. Instead he strained it to far and lost his KCM for himself and his clone that was created.

We just have to agree to disagree with each other.




All of Naruto's shadow clones can go into biju states due to Kushina being pregnant with Naruto when she had Kurama sealed inside of her. Each clone holds Naruto's chakra and also Kurama's chakra that fused with him since pregnancy. Ginkaku and Kinkaku can do the same, but they can not go into KCM.


But KCM is a different state from the regular biju state. KCM is yang chakra from the kurama, which no other clone can obtain because they do not have the fox inside of them.

We've seen they need to be summoned from the original with Kurama's yang chaka to be able to enter KCM or come in contact with Naruto. If the clones run out of or lose KCM then they can not re-enter, on it's own to be specific.

Obviously if the clone comes in contact with the original Naruto again it could most likely recharge. (Which should be implied)

Man the shadow clone jutsu is all one jutsu. Even if you try to add clones to the existing pool, they are still connected as one whole jutsu and if something happens to the original, ALL the others are all effected. It's the same concept behind what happens to the clones if the original is hit hard enough. If you hit a clone, the clone just disappears and the original is fine. But if you hit the original hard enough, even though the other clones aren't toughed, ALL of the clones will feel the effect and disappear. By straining himself and running out of chakra trying to add another clone, Naruto ended up affecting his original self, which effected the clone next to him and as the logic given to us straight from the manga about how clones are connected, the other clones felt the same effect.

As far as your response to Blink about KCM clones, you are wrong there also because remember when Naruto's clone that was with Gaara's unit was fighting against Edo Madara, it had access to Kurama. Kurama was even able to supply it with a little bit of chakra. They may not have the "real fox" inside of them, but they don't need that. They have access to the fox and the fox can give them more chakra. If not him, Naruto can transfer it to them via the link. It makes no sense for him not to be able to when he's done the exact same thing to other humans who don't even share his chakra originally. Which this what your original argument was about before it got sidetracked with this KCM stuff. Can the original Naruto transfer his sage chakra and mode to his clones in reality? It was never about the clones needing to access the chakra on their own, it was about whether Naruto could give it to them by entering/re entering the chakra mode.

And yes this where we have to agree to disagree. Because neither of us has a scan we can provide for our case that the other can't somehow work around

 

[Johndoesknowall]

You're trying to come up with cop-out explanations in order to not admit the other guy is correct. Kurama's chakra was never described as "fusing" with Naruto's. It was said to be leaking into his own chakra supply, thanks to the nature of Minato's seal. There's no indication that it was ever "piling up" into his own body; the

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should have told you that. Naruto by all accounts, always had to

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(

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;

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;

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) chakra from Kurama in order to enter Biju states, or the seal was weak enough that he can draw on chakra more easily (Pt. II).

The chapter page I referenced has the clone unwillingly entering a Biju state, despite the clone not possessing Kurama himself. It's not different from a clone entering KCM.

I don't care if you accept my explanation or not. Whether you like it or not, my explanation for this is right about Kurama's chakra fusing with Naruto. It might not state it in the manga exactly as I put it. But it does state that kurama's chakra is/has fused with Naruto's. We saw that even if the beast is not inside you, you can still go into a biju state. Ginkaku and Kinkaku proved this. Kurama's chakra fusing with yours is a sign of this.

Spoiler

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They did not have this biju state until after Kurama's chakra fused with them. Also just so you know. Don't you fused as "Piling up". Use it as the way it was meant to, so you're not confusing others. "Blend or join or combine" are synonyms for fused. "Piling up" is not.

Spoiler

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This page shows you that jiraiya says slips out and "combines."

Man the shadow clone jutsu is all one jutsu. Even if you try to add clones to the existing pool, they are still connected as one whole jutsu and if something happens to the original, ALL the others are all effected. It's the same concept behind what happens to the clones if the original is hit hard enough. If you hit a clone, the clone just disappears and the original is fine. But if you hit the original hard enough, even though the other clones aren't toughed, ALL of the clones will feel the effect and disappear. By straining himself and running out of chakra trying to add another clone, Naruto ended up affecting his original self, which effected the clone next to him and as the logic given to us straight from the manga about how clones are connected, the other clones felt the same effect.

As far as your response to Blink about KCM clones, you are wrong there also because remember when Naruto's clone that was with Gaara's unit was fighting against Edo Madara, it had access to Kurama. Kurama was even able to supply it with a little bit of chakra. They may not have the "real fox" inside of them, but they don't need that. They have access to the fox and the fox can give them more chakra. If not him, Naruto can transfer it to them via the link. It makes no sense for him not to be able to when he's done the exact same thing to other humans who don't even share his chakra originally. Which this what your original argument was about before it got sidetracked with this KCM stuff. Can the original Naruto transfer his sage chakra and mode to his clones in reality? It was never about the clones needing to access the chakra on their own, it was about whether Naruto could give it to them by entering/re entering the chakra mode.

And yes this where we have to agree to disagree. Because neither of us has a scan we can provide for our case that the other can't somehow work around

I see we finally agree on one thing. Also I am not trying to avoid my main thread statement or am trying to change the subject. I was just replying and answering the questions and statements said and asked. If I kept referring back to my main point in each comment it would've taken a long time for me to respond and would've been a long post.