[Debate] Madara Rules Vs EjBlack

Brother Numpsay

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The Conclusion

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According to the condition/knowledge, Bee's ignorance will lead to his down fall. Bee doesn't rely not only his Buijuu's power, but his own. This is why Hachibi always ask Bee to step in certain condition that fits best for the both of them, demonstrated in all his fights in the Manga.


Because the location ended up in Kabuto's favor, the moment Kabuto decides to release Hakugeki the fight is over.
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The defendant dropped the rest his premise, from attempting to counter this jutsu, by making one more, hoping to be successful. His last claim thought that Bee and Hachibi do not share the same damage, therefore this jutsu can be countered. His backed up evidence end up shooting his own foot. Lets read his "proof" again:[ ]. Bee asked, "are you hurt"? Hachibi said, "Were BOTH hurt! Are You alright?" Which ruins this premise also. Which once again, remain the jutsu being uncounterable. Kabuto made that statement on how to counter this jutsu[ ]. 1. Right tool to block light, snake cornea. 2. Liquify body parts to ease the sound and vibrations, passing through his body. The defendant also ignored that the screeching noises would even make Bee mentally stable in his condition. The manga even showed that if Bee is vulnerable, Hachibi cannot do anything on his own[ ]. There is nothing Hachibi can do, once it even decides to help, he has to be present in some way, thus he will feel the effects too. You cannot just counter light, sound, and energy passing through, via vibration. Chakra does not block this either.

But lets continue the match and say this jutsu isn't used yet. The defendant has to take into consideration, that Bee will use his Kenjutsu prowess, as he usually starts the match, for both close range and and long range. Bee will not know how dangerous Kabuto is to begin with. This also leads to Kabuto chances of victory.


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As my premise mention earlier, Kabuto can abuse this situation, by first examining how dangerous it is to face him, even with his perceptual upgrade. Kabuto could strictly use his snakes and Orochimaru in this situation. With Kabuto's snakes swarming around the field[ ], they could strike any minute they find an opening[ ]. Once bitten the poison will start its process. Kabuto's Orochimaru doppelganger can help my striking too. Of course Bee would own it, Kabuto can use that as his intention too, forcing Bee to tear Orochimaru apart[ ][ ]. Kabuto also could use Orochimaru has a meat shield too, only to have the poison from his blood vaporizing into the air, thus paralyzes Bee[ ]. The defendant attempt to use Naruto's situation when dealing with poison. He had failed to even make a comparison between poisons, first of all. The poison use against Naruto was a weak compound. Reading by Kakshi's comment[ ], it had seem that the effects did nothing to Naruto, because it worked VERY slowly. Naruto had plenty of time to extract the poison, even being a minor scratch. If you were to compare it to much better poisoners like Sasori, you will see the difference between how powerful the components can be. One whiff or minor scratch from Sasori's poison and the comment Kakashi stated to Naruto would look pointless, from its effects. Sasori's poison was so powerful that an antidote needed to be use immediately to extract the poison[ ], so cutting off blood work isn't effective. Is Kabuto's poison from better then Sasori's? Hell no. Is it a stronger component then what those Mist guys used? By far better.[ ]​
.


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If the scenario's are not playing out for Kabuto, if decides to rely Bee on the V2 on this point, still gives Kabuto the edge of victory. There isn't much to say about V2 as it's a walking tank. The defendant already displayed the basic of its destruction: Speed, Density Armor, Power/Strength. In Kabuto's case, the defendant want to claim that Kabuto will have a problem with this especially speed. I question since, Sasuke precog enable him to dodge it in mid air[ ]. Kabuto already demonstrated having better reaction then Sasuke, the moment he dodged on of his fastest tech: Sussanoo Arrow[ ], something like Kakashi's Sharingan was force to warp instead of dodge. Anyway, it isn't safe for Bee charging in with V2 (even though thats his main attacks) as me and both the defendant agree half way that Senpo: Chakra Scalpel can damage V2 cloak. If we were to look carefully on how dangerous this jutsu is, lets look at Naruto's situation: After hitting Kabuto, with a Rasengan[ ], next 2 pages you will see that Kabuto snucked in a Chakra Scapel attack[ ][ ].Tsunade noticed what Kabuto did[ ][ ]. Bee will be in Naruto's situation since the jutsu is powered up enough to make it as effective as it did last time. That's not Kabuto's only option. He can summon the 3 Doki's as I mention in my premise. Using their ghost to bypass the shroud. The defendant try to make claims that Samehada can help here, but it doesn't seem his back up evidence shows that incorrect. He said "Kishimoto hadn't given Samehada the ability to absorb chakra at that time." That is completely wrong[ ][ ][ ], Therefore Samehada can't just pick up any charka attack that I mention in my previous posts. He also ignored that when V2 is used, its under Bee's chakra. Another testament that Samehada can act on its own for absorbing. The third effective counter was allowing Kabuto to make Bee Tackle on purpose, like this[ ]. As I pointed out that he can use Jiribo as the extra and and strength support to parry and hold on[ ]. Since Jirobo has the ability to absorb chakra[ ] and is much better with Sage Mode Boost, he can slowly remove V2 cloak. In fact, this counter can leave in opening for Kabuto, to make Sakon fuse bodies with Bee, after parts of V2 cloak is absorbed, leaving flesh open for Sakon to enter[ ]. Should Bee stab himself to eject Sakon? Not a chance, since this Sakon shares Kabuto's modification, which can liquify it's organs, it will be only hurting Bee. Can be use Lightening Release then? Still won't work as Kabuto alternated his own liquid, and should not take in context of having the same weakness as Hozuki Clan. Not all liquid is conductible. Making this defeat, the perfect assassination.

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In the end, the defendant's argument seem to lead that Full Buijuu Mode being his only chance here. The mass size counter some of my finishers in my arguments. Even though Kabuto can end Bee before he attempts to use BM, Kabuto still has ways to beat and counter it's attacks. First, it's fire power, TBB: Kabuto will find this jutsu as specious as Orochimaru did. To deal with any form of TBB, is to Muki Tensei the land field. This is the most simple counter, as he can force Bee to fire the jutsu upward, or side way. As for the Ball version, my premise is that it can be pushed back to Bee, with webs. The defendant found that iffy to even be such a counter, but also failed to realize that it is very easy for Kabuto to make Kidomaru to support it with more. Commented by Sasuke[ ](He even sprung behind us!), show its testament on how easy it is to spray them. More and more webs can be added on to, to sprang it back to Killer Bee, making no excuse that it wouldn't work. Whatever premise the defendant made for TBB vs Manda, or which TBB he is talking about, is still not effective as he claim. Example was his last point, that he was talking about the Blast instead of the Bomb. In thee end the Blast still shares the same as the bomb when it comes to exploding[ ]. Hitting the ground would do exactly like that explosion, thus owning giving Kabuto the chances of attacking a vulnerable, recovering Bee. In his scenario of Gyuuki vs Manda II, we both can conclude a hassle and struggle defeating each other. But at the end of the day, Kabuto is here. With the counters I made to support Manda II
He has many options since he is real close, thanks to Manda II's transportation:

My premise of using Sage Mode strength/ Jirobo's strength for more handy support: With this he can smash Bee around, making Bee vulnerable with Manda II strikes. A Senpo: Gold Arrow hitting/drilling through a vital spot, at point blank. Doki Summoning: eating it's physical energy, since he became a bigger target, making it easy.Summon a couple of his Snakes to start striking from the neck/vital spot, spreading poison to make up for Gyuuki's size.
Kabuto wins here, as facing off ink clones wouldn't even matter, as he has alot of supporting animals and Sound 5 summoning to keep them occupied. And since he would be very close to Gyuuki in a CQC match of my premise, he can easily use Sakon's KKG and merge with Gyuuki, avoiding any physical attacks with ink clones or Gyuuki himself. Kabuto can of course use Speed Fern on that range, restricting movement's, due to them piercing and no where to escape but flying.

Kabuto is truly a terrifying character and as lots of ways to defeat a monster like Killer Bee.
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Bronze

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That was a nice post and well constructed. The colour even matches KabutoLol.

Only when it comes to you and Madara. He would be unbiased in this debate. You might even gain some respect from him.
Probably.

OT: Its time to stop the debate. The judges can now vote for the winner. Although i am sorry for not getting enough judges like i have promised. The ones who i have gave request to haven't sent anything back.
 
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Brother Numpsay

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That was a nice post and well constructed. The colour even matches KabutoLol.



Probably.

OT: Its time to stop the debate. The judges can now vote for the winner. Although i am sorry for not getting enough judges like i have promised. The ones who i have gave request to haven't sent anything back.
Ill try to find one, the best I can.
 

Booker

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Before I declare my opinion of the winner, I'd just like to remind each of you that I had zero bias and judged this completely fairly. I read the arguments and counters, and chose the winner based off who debated better than the other and countered a majority of major points. Who I believe would win in the fight is irrelevant, as I am solely judging each of you on who won the debate in itself.

I'll have to re-read all the arguments to make sure of my verdict, and that should be up by 7 tonight. Don't expect anything too in-depth, I'll be listing what each of you did right and wrong, then list who did better of the two.

That said, it was an excellent debate from both sides. You each kept a cool head which is much appreciated.
 

Bronze

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Before I declare my opinion of the winner, I'd just like to remind each of you that I had zero bias and judged this completely fairly. I read the arguments and counters, and chose the winner based off who debated better than the other and countered a majority of major points. Who I believe would win in the fight is irrelevant, as I am solely judging each of you on who won the debate in itself.

I'll have to re-read all the arguments to make sure of my verdict, and that should be up by 7 tonight. Don't expect anything too in-depth, I'll be listing what each of you did right and wrong, then list who did better of the two.

That said, it was an excellent debate from both sides. You each kept a cool head which is much appreciated.
Its okay. Take your time. Its great for judge to read the debate argument multiple times.
 

Booker

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Sorry, got a little side tracked =D

Anyways, here's some details.

Madara Rules: Things I liked

- I think you made great use of Bee's full arsenal. A lot of it gets neglected, like his TBB laser beam, which was nice to see.
- Kept a cool head throughout
- Counters weren't outlandish. Loved the scan of Bee transforming and forming TBB in less than a second, that was a scan I was waiting to see.

What you could have expanded upon:

- The issues concerning Bee's transformation in such a small area. Maybe I missed where you addressed it fully, but that was something I was concerned with.

EjBlack: Things I liked

- Your use of Manda II was excellent, he's a resource that cannot be ignored and I thought you utilized it well.
- You balanced all of Kabuto's abilities in your argument, which can be incredibly difficult to do.
- Kept a cool head throughout.
- I learned a few things about Kabuto I didn't know before, which I appreciated.

What you could have expanded upon:

- I expected many more arguments for speed. Kabuto is great and sensing and utilizing his sensing for blitzing. Hell, he blitzed Itachi.

Winner:

I know a lot of judges say this, but this debate was really close. Each of you maintained civility, which often times can put a judge off one contestant. Each managed to counter signifigant points the other provided. You each adapted your arguments once a counter was provided, which was excellent.

However, if I absolutely HAD to choose a winner, I would have to give this to Killer Bee: Madara Rules. I read through the entire debate once through a few minutes ago, and my gut instinct left me with Killer Bee as the winner.

If you have any issues with my verdict, PM me and we'll address them. I'm a little distracted at the moment, so if I missed anything let me know and I'll take it into consideration.
 
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Rainbow Dash

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Style: Madara Rules is the victor of this category. He formats and organizes his arguments very neatly and clean to the point where it's much easier to read as opposed to a huge wall of text.

Validity: EjBlack wins this category, there are a few problems with Madara Rules's argument. The Hachibi Whirlwind scaling. Before you post a size scaling from Narutoforums, you must first take into account the credibility of the calculation. Being a regular on Narutoforums, I know that the scaling Madara Rules's posted was done by a user named Gallavant. Gallavant is actually the laughingstock of the Narutoforums blogs section that came from a laughingstock forum called moviecodec. With that being said, the scaling is not valid nor is it credible. Let this be a lesson for future debates and check the credibility of your sources before you use it in a debate. There are a couple more points from Madara Rules that have questionable credibility. Underrating Kabuto's speed is a mistake. He straight out blitzed Itachi, who happens to have lightning timer reactions. (lightning can travel 441 times up to 6617 times faster than the speed of sound)

Final post: As for the final post from each debater, EjBlack wins this category. It was simply a much stronger and believable post. EjBlack seems to have put more effort into his final post as opposed to Madara Rules. More validity, more style and more sources.

I feel like both debaters could have went deeper into this debate if there was more time.

EjBlack wins this by a hair.
 
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UchihaNagashi

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Madara Rules(Killer Bee) vs EjBlack(Kabuto Yakushi)

Location: Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto
Knowledge: None
Intent: To kill
Distance: 50 Meter
Restrictions: Edo Tensie

Conditions: Killer Bee has Samahada. Kabuto starts in Sage mode.

Judges:
In this debate, only 6 will be chosen. If the judges are known for their bias, they will not be chosen. Only logical and smart ones. We are requesting for judges to join, so if you want to judge then please post.

1-Penguin
2-The Dead Batman
3-Transcendence
4-Zaru
5-?
6-?

Rules of this Debate:
I will start start first once my opponent has confirmed he is ready. This debate will be shut down in Sunday 15/12/2013. Anyone who breaks the rules such as:
-Spamming
-Harassing
-Insult
-Character Bashing
-Disturbing the debate
-etc
will immediately be banned from this thread. Please follow the rules and respect the site. So sit back and enjoy.​
Since you have no fifth, I can be a judge if you want (MR/EjB).

And I don't care about the matchup really anyway.​
 
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Bronze

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@The Dead Batman: Thank you.

@Zaru: I realized the calculations were incorrect but i just posted to give an idea of how big Hachibi's twist. I guess i should improve more writing next time.

@UchihaNagashi: I will take you then.
 

UchihaNagashi

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Judgement

Madara Rules

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  • Things I liked:


  • Arsenal usage; You used Kirābi's arsenal fully. Though this could have been improved if you used them better for certain situations.

  • Arguement organizing; You organized your argues very well, and beautifully.

  • Point; You went first on offensive, so it's natural to get defensive after a short time. However, you grasped the title back after a while. Good one.


    Things that needed improvement:
  • Sides; Although you did pretty good job in offensive, most of the time you were defensive. At the end of the debate, it looked like EjBlack had already claimed victory by conclusion.

  • Scans: You lacked a bit less scans that EjBlack. Nope...

  • Standing up; This is important; whenever someone denies or attacks your claim, you need to stand up to him. This lacked in your area, since EjBlack 'claimed' your theories wrong. I, myself, could've proved them wrong or toured/bended the theory.


    EjBlack

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    Things that I liked:
  • Validity; You had much validity in your posts. Nice.

  • Stability; Kept your head cool. Better.

  • Talking back; You didn't always just shut up when he corrected you. Good. Liked it.


    Things that needed improvement:

    Styling; Too much, too messy. It was hard to read actually.


    Scan spam; You maybe put too much scans in the game. But you at least brought some.


    Jutsu spam; This is not good for debates. Seriously.


    Conclusion

    [*]I believe Madara Rules won overall toughly, because EjBlack seemed to show that only Hakugeki was the only counter for Kirābi. Kirābi has too many advantages over Kabuto anyway; Raiton > Hydrification, Bijū > Genjutsu, Scalpel =< Raiton Sword, Bijū Dama, size. Not to mention, Manda II actually doesn't meet the principles to match a Bijū. It would get tossed over after a few Bijū Dama lasers from point blank distance. Not to mention, the tentacles would match the snake's dynamic body structure. But EjBlack, you were very close to get the top spot. Really, really close.​
 
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Bronze

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I realized i made mistake by going on offence first. Actually in my city, it was quite night so i had to intro in hurry, a better chance if i would have formulated it much better than before. Anyway thanks for voting me and reminding me for improvements which i will use for future debates.

OT:
2 Votes = Madara Rules and 1 vote = EjBlack.
 

Bronze

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A change of plans. I am sorry UchihaNagashi but according to EjBlack, you don't like him for some reason and your conclusion was too personal for him. Please don't take this personally but i will have to remove you from the judges list. Me and EjBlack organised our debate that only judges will vote are the people me and him can agree on. So i am very sorry.

Judgement
Madara Rules
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  • Things I liked:
  • Arsenal usage; You used Kirābi's arsenal fully. Though this could have been improved if you used them better for certain situations.
  • Arguement organizing; You organized your argues very well, and beautifully.
  • Point; You went first on offensive, so it's natural to get defensive after a short time. However, you grasped the title back after a while. Good one.
    Things that needed improvement:
  • Sides; Although you did pretty good job in offensive, most of the time you were defensive. At the end of the debate, it looked like EjBlack had already claimed victory by conclusion.
  • Scans: You lacked a bit less scans that EjBlack. Nope...
  • Standing up; This is important; whenever someone denies or attacks your claim, you need to stand up to him. This lacked in your area, since EjBlack 'claimed' your theories wrong. I, myself, could've proved them wrong or toured/bended the theory.
    EjBlack
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    Things that I liked:
  • Validity; You had much validity in your posts. Nice.
  • Stability; Kept your head cool. Better.
  • Talking back; You didn't always just shut up when he corrected you. Good. Liked it.
    Things that needed improvement: Styling; Too much, too messy. It was hard to read actually. Scan spam; You maybe put too much scans in the game. But you at least brought some. Jutsu spam; This is not good for debates. Seriously.
    Conclusion
    [*]I believe Madara Rules won overall toughly, because EjBlack seemed to show that only Hakugeki was the only counter for Kirābi. Kirābi has too many advantages over Kabuto anyway; Raiton > Hydrification, Bijū > Genjutsu, Scalpel =< Raiton Sword, Bijū Dama, size. Not to mention, Manda II actually doesn't meet the principles to match a Bijū. It would get tossed over after a few Bijū Dama lasers from point blank distance. Not to mention, the tentacles would match the snake's dynamic body structure. But EjBlack, you were very close to get the top spot. Really, really close.​

I had to cross out UchihaNagashi as he is kicked out of judges list. So this means one Madara Rules = 1 and EjBlack = 1. I have notified Penguin and Transcendence. I will also try and find 2 other judges as well.

-Thank you.
 

Transcendence

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If I may say before delving in to this, this was a rather close debate and the winner won by a little, rather than a land slide. I am rather surprised (in a good way) Madara Rules.

Anyways...

Madara Rules: Pro's
- The FAR superior formatting. It was pleasant to view all of your posts in this debate and it made for an enjoyable read.
- Used most scans in the right context.
- Cleverly expanded upon Bee's arsenal.
- On the arsenal concept, you pulled out all the strings for it for Bee, one of the better Kirabi debates I've seen in a while (albeit how miniscule they've become)

Madara Rules: Cons
- The validity of some of your statements came in to question, most notably regarding the Hachibi whirlwind scan. While it was a good tactic bringing in the whirlwind argument, the calculations hindered that as the validity is not conclusive.
- Nothing much else.

What you could have improved on:
Since the only con was the validity of your statements, that is all you needed to improve on. Work on that, and you'll be an even better debater.

EjBlack: Pro's

- The validity of your statements was crisp and clear and never called in to question.
- Explanations were a tad better than MR, but not much.
- Your conclusion sealed the deal on your arguments rather well.
- The use of Manda II as a strategy was genius and underrated.

EjBlack: Con's
- Formatting. Could have been done better.
- Could have expanded upon the locational advantage (How Kabuto can quite easily reform the cave with Muki Tensei if Kirabi chooses to destroy the cave) and how engaging in CQC against one of the most perceptive users in the manga (DODGING AMATERASU) would be suicide.

What you could have done better:
Formatting, and expanding upon the arsenal of your character like how Madara Rules did.

Overall:
I will give this to EjBlack because his arguments were more clear and more valid, but this was a close debate nonetheless. One bad argument from Ej or a superior argument at one point from MR could have completely swayed this debate in the other direction.

Good debate you two.
 

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I shouldn't have brought that calculation pic *Sigh*. Thanks for pointing the improvements, i shall do them next time if i am in debate.

1 = Madara Rules and 2 = EjBlack. I guess we have to wait for Penguin and see what his vote is. Please be patient.
 

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I just want to say I am pleased with both of you. This was very interesting to read, and I am proud of you both as you don't resort to calling each other derogatory terms to prove a point. z.z




Ok, so Madara Rules, let me just say I am very surprised. I thought you were just a Madara wanker who uses no logic, but damn. I am thoroughly impressed. Your formatting was beautiful, you used most of Bee's arsenal to it's full potential, and you didn't lose your cool at all; even when proven wrong.

One thing I really didn't like is your take on Senpō: Hakugeki. "Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu: a Jutsu which flashes light and releases powerful sound immobilizing the victim's body which gives Kabuto the opportunity to defeat them. However, the light that comes from the orb has around 10 seconds"

To me it seems a lot shorter than 10 seconds, and I saw on more than one occasion you just told him "good point" or "I guess I got nothing to say, nice". Even though it is polite, you can never admit you are wrong in a debate. And that scan with the calculations. :|




EJ you did pretty damn good to. Even though your formatting wasn't as pretty, and you used a shit ton of scans, your points were valid. I loved the use of Manda II. Not to mention you bringing up all of the sound five's abilities in this debate. I have never seen a debate where someone involves DSM Kabuto and mentions all of the sound five. They just use Tayuya and Kimimaro.

I think you should have touched up more on the size difference of Manda II and the Gyuuki, as it is enormous. In the future I would touch up on your formatting as well. Where were the speed feats and blitz arguments though? :(




This was tough. I have not judged a really close debate like this before, and to be frank, it really is a toss up. I have to go with Ej though. I thought he had more valid arguments, but there were really no super outlandish arguments from any debater to begin with.
 
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