[Establishing why] MS Sasuke > Tobirama.

[Oblivionx]

well in my opinion this fight was settled when sasuke shitted his pants when tobirama raised his chakra levels....!
so why establish anything....! :hooray:

 

[Touken]

Yata Mirror increases and makes an orb around the Susano'o when a larger scale attack is thrown at it.

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So yes, it would have repelled an attack coming from the sky.​

It seems so.

So what's your point? There's the possibility that Yata Mirror, which Sasuke doesn't have, reflected Kirin and there's the fact that we don't know which Susanoo state Itachi used.

I assure you Sasuke's gonna need V3 or Final Susanoo to tank Gojou Kibakufuda and once he's done that, he'll feel 'every cell in his body hurting'.

Btw, I don't remember Sasuke reacting to Juubito's combat speed:

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[Minator93]

Tobirama can beat current Sasuke, MS gets beaten quite easily U_U

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^ This is Sasuke's fate

 

[End of Days]

Tobirama getting paralyzed by raiton is also false as electrocuting only really happens when you are submerged in water, partially or fully
Raikage chanelled his raiton through mei's water dragon and mei remained unaffected despite the fact that she was using water dragon at the time. Killer bee a raiton user himself got electrocuted while he had his hand inside suigetsu in liquid form, sasuke himself had to use chidori nagashi to avoid getting electrocuted by darui

 

[Saiken stomps]

as much as I hate sasuke, you are absolutly right.

 

[Murasame]

It seems so.

So what's your point? There's the possibility that Yata Mirror, which Sasuke doesn't have, reflected Kirin and there's the fact that we don't know which Susanoo state Itachi used.

I assure you Sasuke's gonna need V3 or Final Susanoo to tank Gojou Kibakufuda and once he's done that, he'll feel 'every cell in his body hurting'.

Btw, I don't remember Sasuke reacting to Juubito's combat speed:

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Dude just stop :leaf:

 

[Champ]

Tobirama can't touch Susano'o cause of Enton shield, can't break it, can't escape Genjutsu. Hebi Sasuke is more his level, then again Manda would just eat Tobi

 

[Shura]

Tobirama getting paralyzed by raiton is also false as electrocuting only really happens when you are submerged in water, partially or fully
Raikage chanelled his raiton through mei's water dragon and mei remained unaffected despite the fact that she was using water dragon at the time. Killer bee a raiton user himself got electrocuted while he had his hand inside suigetsu in liquid form, sasuke himself had to use chidori nagashi to avoid getting electrocuted by darui

You cannot damage a Raiton user by electrifying him. Also, I believe Ay channelled the Chakura into the opposite direction unlike Sasuke who will be channelling it back to Tobirama.​

 

[shelke]

Tobirama is literally featless. He is certainly not faster than Sasuke. By feats - Not even close. Sasuke is one of the fastest people on-foot, without any enhancements. If you deny this, you are just a petty troll. The way he got out of the massive explosion unscathed on foot, speaks vloumes. He covered such a large distance in one flash that actually managed to step on the mines underground. Even then, he reacted so fast that he flew up, avoiding damage.

And what's this talk of Sasuke electrocuting himself? He is able to use Nagashi, by releasing the current over the ground - it scurries in whichever direction he chooses - or releasing it in all directions. In both cases, it literally comes out of his body. Great Job. MS Sasuke wins easily. Heck, we all know how other cases can be argued as well.

Good job.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Tobirama is literally featless. He is certainly not faster than Sasuke.

Call me when Sasuke doesn't get solo'd by a shunshin from juubito.

All this wanking of Sasuke's speed because he blitzed a fodder ( Juugo ).

 

[NarutoIndra]

Meh I say it can go both ways. However, for your points, I disagree. Many of them are flawed. For example, you accept what was stated in Susano being part of the user and the user being inseparable, when it has already been disproven. Yet, you end up going against all what has been stated and claim Katon can take on Suiton, when that goes against the manga itself. Also, I would like to point out tonnes of your feats and examples are from currently progressing EMS Sasuke, not MS Sasuke.
edit: Nor is Sasuke's speed comparable to Tobirama's. MS Sasuke is Sasuke without his curse mark, which according to the DB gives 'godlike speed'. You can't pick and chose the feats for Sasuke, otherwise I would be saying Sasuke can still tank C2 bombs without Susano, when he clearly cannot.

 

[shelke]

@pateuvasiliu

Just like Tobirama was? Oh wait, he was cut in half. The same Juubito, whose attacks even Hizuren dodged. Call us when you ACTUALLY read the manga.

 

[Touken]

@pateuvasiliu

Just like Tobirama was? Oh wait, he was cut in half. The same Juubito, whose attacks even Hizuren dodged. Call us when you ACTUALLY read the manga.

Again, it was a ranged attack which gave Hiruzen more time to react and dodge. And even then he didn't dodge it completely.

Honestly, when's it going to get through to you?

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[-Sky-]

Why are people bringing up the fight with Juubito? He's the fastest character in NV and blitzed both Tobirama and Sasuke, so the point is moot.

OT: Sasuke wins

 

[shelke]

@Touken

What are you trying to pull? Ranged attack means what? Are you even reading what you are typing? It's like suggesting that a man makes a few stabs with a sword, the sword is not traveling at the same speed as the attacker. Seriously? Your logic has no weight. Tobirama is not fast on foot, in fact, this example doesn't even have anything to do with foot speed. He reacted, because he is an Edo. These are ALIVE bodies, feeling the rigours of his strong hold.

Honestly, this is final reply to you.

 

[Touken]

@Touken

What are you trying to pull? Ranged attack means what? Are you even reading what you are typing? It's like suggesting that a man makes a few stabs with a sword, the sword is not traveling at the same speed as the attacker. Seriously? Your logic has no weight. Tobirama is not fast on foot, in fact, this example doesn't even have anything to do with foot speed. He reacted, because he is an Edo. These are ALIVE bodies, feeling the rigours of his strong hold.

Honestly, this is final reply to you.

lol? But this isn't even comparable to someone stabbing with a sword because that's not a ranged attack. He isn't thrusting with his Onmyouten. It's obvious it's slower than Juubito's foot speed because Hiruzen reacted to it and

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but he

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How does this not speak volumes to you?

Anyway, this is my final post on this thread. It's so difficult debating with Sasuke fanboys.

 

[TurrinB]

Tobirama > MS Sasuke

MS Sasuke is not > than Tobirama. Tobirama was rivals w/ and frequently clashed w/ Izuna who possessed MS, until he beat Izuna. This demonstrates that Tobirama has a great deal of experience successfully comabating & countering the abilities of the Uchiha, Sharingan, and even Mangekyo Sharingan. Now perhaps Izuna wasn't as strong as MS Sasuke -- though I believe that's a stretch considering Izuna trained w/ Madara of all people and fought during the warring era of the Clans -- but even if that is the case, this still demonstrates Tobirama fighting successfully against these abilities in his youth; after all this was years before Tobirama even became Hokage, years which he had to spend getting strong. So from a sheer portrayal standpoint Tobirama should be above any MS Uchiha. Now let's take a look at your post:

Sasuke's Katon would hit it and turn it into steam.

The picture you posted was off Katon + Fuuton Combo vs Suiton, that is the only reason why the fire in Kakuzu's technique was able to overwhelm Kakashi's Suiton. In a normal clash Suiton > Katon. We are told this very clearly in the in Data-book III:

"-Earth is weak against Lightning. The five Nature Alterations are interrelated in such terms of superiority and inferiority...!!
Chart: [Clockwise, starting from the top]Inf.(Fire)Sup.→Inf.(Wind)Sup.→Inf.(Lightning)Sup.→Inf.(Earth)Sup.→Inf.(Water)Sup.→
[In the middle]The five great Chakra Nature Alterations"

And that Manga itself:

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This is what happens when Suiton Clashes w/ Katon, it gets overwhelmed:

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Sasuke's Raiton would travel throught Tobirama's Suiton and ultimately paralyze Tobirama.

This is a nice idea, but the problem is that Sasuke would need to make physical contact w/ the Suiton attack to channel Raiton through it. So he's already being hit by the Suiton attack, which means being cut in half by Suiton: Suidanha or pushed out of a range which he can employ Chidori Current if hit by Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Ether way it's not working and if what your asking were possible Sasuke would have done so in this instance:

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But he just gets overwhelmed by the Suiton:

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Sasuke will use his Shunshin in order to evade it

Tobirama has much better speed feats than Sasuke, so I don't see Sasuke being able to evade Tobirama's attacks w/ Shunshin. This is even more overwhelmingly in Tobirama's favor if he is utilizing FTG &/or KB.

Sensory capabilities won't help Tobirama much here since sensors simply cannot sense and fight at the same time because they cannot knead Chakura for sensing while fighting.

This is not true, at all. C is not representative of every sensor and C was trying to track someone down who was specifically hiding their chakra from a sensor, making his job much harder and requiring a greater degree of concentration. We've seen plenty of shinobi utilize sensing while fighting; Madara, Kabuto, SM Naruto, Mu, etc... have all done so.

Moving on. Now Sasuke will be left to deal with Tobirama's Hiraishin, probably the most bothersome technique in Tobirama's arsenal for Sasuke. However, since Tobirama's markings are made out of pure Chakura, the Sharingan will have no trouble seeing them since the Sharingan gives color the Chakura.

I don't see what indicates the FTG markings are made of pure chakra, but ether way we know that they can't be detected via their chakra signature; Obito depsite possessing Sharingan, Rinnegan, and chakra sensing was never able to detect the location of FTG markers based on their chakra.

Once Tobirama teleports once or twice, it won't be hard for Sasuke to realize that Tobirama was teleporting to the markings

The problem is how is Sasuke surviving the first teleports to get this knowledge? Minato only needed 2 FTG Teleports used in rapid succession to blitz the Raikage of all people. Tobirama blitz'd Juubiobito w/ his first teleport. Etc... Really if Sasuke gets near a FTG marking he is going to be blitz'd and killed long before 2 teleports are used.

so he'll know that he needs to deal with the markings right away.

How is he dealing w/ the markings? Obviously they are not easy to be rid of considering that Obito of all people literally had 16 years since Minato placed a marking on him to rid himself of that marking, but was unable to do so.

Knowing how dangerous the Hiraishin is

MS Sasuke does not know how dangerous FTG is or even the fact that Tobirama can use FTG. He will gain this knowledge after Tobirama utilizes FTG, but that requires him to survive Tobirama utilizing FTG against him and w/ no knowledge his odds of doing so aren't that great.

Sasuke will keep his distance and activate the Susano'O along with the Susano'O Kagutsuchi which grants Sasuke the ability to make various shapes out of the Enton orb on the Susano'O's hand. First, to erase the danger of Tobirama ever getting near to him, Sasuke can summon both Aoda and his Taka to the battlefield, letting Aoda go underground and attack when needed while Sasuke himself takes flight on his Taka with Susano'O being activated.

There is no way that Hawk is faster than Tobirama and can allow Sasuke to escape Tobirama's range. Not to mention how OOC (out of character) it is for Sasuke to fight at a long range.

Aoda, himself, can now easily get rid of these markings by simply ripping throught the ground and destroying the ground on which the markings are set on or if needed, he can devour that part of the ground.

How is Aoda finding these markings? Why is Tobirama just sitting there letting him do so? The moment Aoda gets near a marking Tobirama FTG Blitz Aoda and blows Aoda up w/ Tandem Explosive Tags or pierces it's brain w/ Suiton: Suidanha. Than Sasuke just wasted a bunch of chakra on summoning Aoda for no reason.

With the formulas (markings) gone, Tobirama will be unable to teleport to anywhere now.

He can still teleport to Clones even w/o markings; just saying.

However, Sasuke himself can easily get rid of these markings as well by simply using the Enton Yasaka Magatama which would result in all of the markings being hit along with the few Magatamas being shot at Tobirama,

Enton Yasaka Magatama is something only EMS Sasuke displayed he can use, not MS Sasuke; so I don't see why your granting this feat to MS Sasuke.

Though let's pretend for a second he does have it. Enton Yasaka Magatama has no amazing speed feats that indicate Tobirama can't evade w/ his Sensing + Shunshin speed and Tobirama can even create clones to make it more difficult to hit him, on-top of also aiming for the tags. So the chances of Tobirama being hit by Enton Yasaka Magatama are very slim.

As for Enton Yasaka Magatama elimination of the Tags, really it's not a big issue as Tobirama can just create more Tags or Clones to FTG teleport to, but for MS Sasuke pulling out Susano'o and Enton Yasaka Magatama should take a massive toll on his eyesight and chakra; so this would be a terrible trade off for MS Sasuke.

Genjutsu is one of the ways Sasuke could use to bypass the Hiraishin.

Tobirama would sense Sasuke gathering chakra to his eyes to use Genjutsu and than simply avoid eye contact. The same way Obito was able to sense when Sasuke was about to use an eye technique w/ his own chakra sensing:

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Considering that Tobirama already looked into the eyes of an Uchiha that is supposed to be superior to Sasuke multiple times, I see no reason as to why he won't look into Sasuke's eyes.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if Tobirama looks into an Uchiha's eyes because he can sense when they are going to use Genjutsu. However w/ that aside your examples of eye contact are inconclusive imo as none demonstrate clear eye contact.

While it may be true that Tobirama could quite possibly break out of this Genjutsu, he will have to realize that he is a Genjutsu first which would be hard considering that Uchihas can make their Genjutsu look realistic, unabling the target to consider that he or she is in a Genjutsu much like Deidara didn't think of that while fighting Itachi. Futhermore, he'll have to disrupt the Chakura flow which gives Sasuke enough time to kill him with either his Shunshin or an Enton technique.

Aside from what I said above, I think there is a pretty obvious common sense aspect of this. Tobirama fought against elite Uchiha for most of his life and successfully fought against even Mangekyo wielders. If he could be taken out by Sharingan Genjutsu, he would have performed so successfully throughout the Clam wars, he'd be dead. It's not like Sasuke is some uber Genjutsu monsters or even have some unique MS Genjutsu techniques like Shisui & Itachi that Tobirama might not have faced before. All Sasuke has is your standard Three Tome and MS Genjutsu, which Tobirama has undoubtably faced a myriad of times before.

Just like he did with his Katon, Sasuke can gather the thunder clouds, allowing him to use Kirin, however, on a much more powerful scale now. Since a few Katons could gather Kirin [1], Sasuke can shoot off mutliple Enton Yajirushi onto the skies, allowing him to quickly gather enough thunder clouds for a powerful Kirin.

W/ the time it takes to use Kirin, Tobirama would simply set up FTG and evade it easily. Not to mention it's extremely OOC for MS Sasuke to even use Kirin, since not once did he opt for Kirin after awakening the MS.

Kirin was large enough to completely destroy the whole Uchiha hideout and considering it's size, Tobirama has no possible means of escaping it.

Yet Zetsu and Sasuke were perfectly fine despite on being a few meters away from the target Itachi's location. So Tobirama can easily escape Kirin w/ FTG.

Of course, people always use the Sasuke's Susano'O will be teleported away by Hiraishin argument which is false, considering that Minato was attached to Sasuke himself who was wearing Susano'O and after using Hiraishin, Sasuke's Susano'O was teleported with him

No it wasn't, if you look at the next page when Sasuke appears after the FTG teleport his Susano'o is gone:

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Why? Because the user and it's Susano'O are connected and that's exactly why the Susano'O got teleported along with Sasuke as well.

We've seen Susano'o separated form the user before, not only via the above FTG example but when Gaara separates Madara from Susano'o:

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Hiraishin teleports things that are connected to it's are connected to it's target.

FTG teleports what the users wants it to teleport. Thats why a FTG user does not need to teleport the entire earth, just because a person is standing on it.

Not that it matters because even if Tobirama teleports his Susano'O, a new one can be created.

Not fast enough to avoid a successive attack. Madara couldn't even create a new susano'o fast enough to block Naruto's FRS, when separated from his original Susano'o, so Sasuke isn't going to be able to pull a new one out before Tobirama can launch a successive attack. Also why is the toll that Susano'o takes on MS Sasuke's eyes, chakra, and even physical well being never accounted for; if Sasuke starts pulling out Susano'o after Susano'o the guy is going to be blind and dead all too quickly.

Tobirama will never touch Sasuke's Susano'O in the first place due to the Amaterasu: Entenka which allows Sasuke to coat the Susano'O in Enton and not allowing Tobirama to touch it anymore.

Tobirama just puts his arm through the flames as Raikage did, than when he teleports Suano'o away he also teleports w/ the flames removed from his arm. After all we saw Minato remove the Amaterasu flames from him w/ FTG:

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Minato gets hit by Amaterasu Flames, than FTG teleports which removes them. Tobirama would do the same. Yes he'd get some minor damage, but not a huge deal.

There is also the fact that if Tobirama ever thinks of getting close to Sasuke in order to put a mark, Sasuke can paralyze him with Chidori Nagashi and then kill him off

Paralysis doesn't matter as FTG doesn't require a person to be able to move to use it and someone quickly recovers from the effects of Nagashi. So Sasuke would just waste Chakra doing this.

More so, it will be extremely hard to touch Sasuke and put a mark on Sasuke since Sasuke is not only faster than Tobirama in foot speed,

No he's not. Tobirama's speed feats in the war far surpass any of MS Sasuke's.

he can also predict his movements to the point where he could predict the Raikage's movements.

And Tobirama can chakra sense movements, techniques, etc...

His so called great reaction feat of him reacting to Obito's attack doesn't mean absolutely anything since that Obito wasn't actually intelligent and as fast as the real Obito.

The guy was fast enough to blitz an EMS Sasuke who is in turn faster than MS Sasuke.

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. Hell, even someone like Hiruzen reacted to his attack. [1] Furthermore, Sasuke himself also reacted to his attack. This isn't helping Tobirama much in this battle.

They reacted to the Black Element extending not Juubobito's movement speed.

Of course, Tobirama's most powerful technique. Nothing against the Mangekyō Sharingan which as stated can see the color of Chakura so he'll see Tobirama creating explosive seals and Sasuke can easily react and counter before Tobirama does anything too dangerous or when he begins throwing the explosive seals onto Sasuke by simply using Amaterasu to completely burn all of the explosive tags, considering that even an ill Itachi managed to create an Amaterasu that was a lot bigger than a human sized target.

Sasuke may be able to react in time to use Susano'o, but will Susano'o even be able to defend against the explosion, IDK. And again Sasuke constantly needing Susano'o in this match is not good as he does not have the eyesight or chakra to just spam the crap out of it.

Sasuke by simply using Amaterasu to completely burn all of the explosive tags, considering that even an ill Itachi managed to create an Amaterasu that was a lot bigger than a human sized target. [1] Sasuke, on the other hand, can create an Amaterasu that is as big as a Bijū sized target.

Sasuke using Amaterasu which costs a bunch of chakra and damages his eyesight is a horrible trade off for destroying some explosive tags. Even if he could pull Amaterasu off in time to stop the tags from exploding, which I doubt as Amaterasu takes a considerable amount of time to charge and also explosive tag detonation was potrayed as quicker than another MS technique like Kamui.

Even if Sasuke doesn't decide to completely burn all of the explosive seals by some miracle, he can activate the Susano'O in order to tank them all, considering that a Bājon Tsū Susano'O managed to tank something like Kirin. [1][2] A Bājon Fō Susano'O would tank Tobirama's paper bombs without much difficulty considering that paper bombs aren't that powerful since Sakura managed to tank one of them at close range.

It didn't tank Kirin it was obliterated by it.

Not to mention that a Bājon Tsū Susano'O had no problems with tanking a natural disaster created by the Jūbi.

Random Kyuubi Cloaks tanked that, really not that impressive of a feat. Tandem Explosive Tags is something Tobirama thought could work against the Juubi Jinchuuriki.

In the end; Even if those paper bombs manage to damage Sasuke's Susano'O, Sasuke can easily repair it since the bombs don't explode all at once and are an actual chain of explosions.

While Sasuke is reeling from the explosion Tobirama finishes Sasuke w/ a successive attack.

Also I notice that Edo Tensei is completely absent from this analysis and that is another major facet of Tobirama's abilities. Finally you don't really take into account the fact that MS Sasuke had a-lot more panel time to get feats than Tobirama, while Tobirama is still around and potentially accumulating feats. This means Tobirama has a-lot more potential than MS Sasuke in getting new powers, while MS Sasuke has zero potential in this regard as Sasuke has already moved on to bigger and better things I.E. EMS.

 

[Shura]

....Will counter later considering that it's like three in the morning and I'm not up for making an essay right now.​

 

[TurrinB]

....Will counter later considering that it's like three in the morning and I'm not up for making an essay right now.​

If possible try and make it not an essay; don't know if i'm up for creating a long essay post about Tobirama vs Sasuke again at any time lol. So I might not respond if it's an essay; nothing personal just don't know if i'll have this level of free time again.

But I'll at least read it ether way.

 

[End of Days]

You cannot damage a Raiton user by electrifying him.​

you can, it has already happened, killer bee a raiton user himself was hit by chidori while partially submerged inside suigetsu's liquid form

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sasuke used chidori nagashi to protect himself from getting electrified by darui's attack

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you can see his body surrounded by electricity, darui also confirmed this by saying sasuke has raiton affinity after seeing sasuke's technique

Also, I believe Ay channelled the Chakura into the opposite direction unlike Sasuke who will be channelling it back to Tobirama.​

gonna need something to back this up

water conducts electricity in every direction

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