The Fundamentals: Kakashi or Itachi?

[Owarij]

then enlighten us oh great one.

Do I have to waste my time explaining that being taught by a "hokage" doesn't in any way correlate to being a better ninja than a ninja who wasn't ?

Do I have to waste my time explaining that insinuating by just being the son of a legendary ninja doesn't somehow make you a better ninja that those who weren't

Must I go through questioning minator on how exactly he came to the conclusion that Kakashi has greater taijutsu than Itachi ?

I don't even get his "Kakashi was in the anbu " point.... Itachi became an Anbu captain ..for all the years Kakashi was in the Anbu he couldn't out rank a 13 year old boy.. and went on to PRAISE that feat when he returned to the village...

Outsmarted a 30% Itachi that wasn't trying? 1 move ahead? That fully explains their first encounter


??? What does being close to the 4th and 5th have to do with this thread?????

The only seal itachi has shown is the evil sealing method.... Itachi not only having totsuka and its sealing properties also invented the Transcription fuinjutsu as well as whatever sealing method he uses to store crows and latent abilities into people ...

I can go own.. i'd rather not

 

[KingHashirama]

You should re-read the two posts.

What he stated:

Spoiler

Ninjutsu - Kakashi
Genjutsu - Itachi
Taijutsu - Equal
Kenjutsu - Itachi as far as we know
Fuinjutsu - Itachi


What basics are we talking about here? What characteristics make up a nin

Speed? Itachi is faster
Use of Handseals? - Itachi no contest
Use of shruiken and other tools? - Once again , Itach no contest
Use of Furtiveness, distractive and covert tactics in battle - They both do it, we've seen more of kakashi's fights, so I'll have to say him..

Kakashi's techniques which he always does is hide underground while his clones fight , he does this to tire out the opponent and gain knowledge on their abilities etc..

Itachi, when not using genjutsu involves fighting supplemented by distractions(his crows) and misdirection such as

Spoiler

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He's also been seen to layback and observe a fight, gaining info on the enemy, before entering the battle ( naruto,bee vs nagato)


If you're speaking more of functional characteristics of being a ninja such as espionage, sabotage and overall spy like activity ..
then that answer is as clear as day.. as we have rarely seen Kakashi on missions like these and thus we have no idea of what he's like..

Make your decision based on those facts

People who bothered to explain why they believed who was better or if they were tied.

Spoiler

Itachi's speed KCM lvl.
Taijutsu, DSM kabuto lvl
Genjutsu? Obviously itachi, with sharingan or not.
Stamina? By feats itachi, (excluding war arc kakashi.)
Ninujutsu: water fire and better clones
Kakashi had hard time with zabuza, kakuzu, and old kabuto.
Needless to remind you that kakshi did nothing but hide underground vs 30% itachi who was holding back

Kakashi beats him in the ninjutsu department(obviously)
Their taijutsu is rather equal
Speed can also go either way.(kakashi keeping up with v2 jins and gated gui, itachi supposedly keeping up with kcm naruto)
Handseals go to itachi.(but most of kakashi's techs use one or no handseals.)
Genjutsu goes to itachi(but nothing short of tsukuyomi is working on kakashi..not that this is a vs thread)
Stamina goes to kakashi.


So it's pretty even.

 

[Multiply]

What he stated:
People who bothered to explain why they believed who was better or if they were tied.

I obviously know what they said... However you just didn't seem to re-read them. When you re-read them you can send me a private message or something explaining your epiphany.

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[KingHashirama]

Do I have to waste my time explaining that being taught by a "hokage" doesn't in any way correlate to being a better ninja than a ninja who wasn't ?

Do I have to waste my time explaining that insinuating by just being the son of a legendary ninja doesn't somehow make you a better ninja that those who weren't

Must I go through questioning minator on how exactly he came to the conclusion that Kakashi has greater taijutsu than Itachi ?

I don't even get his "Kakashi was in the anbu " point.... Itachi became an Anbu captain ..for all the years Kakashi was in the Anbu he couldn't out rank a 13 year old boy.. and went on to PRAISE that feat when he returned to the village...

Outsmarted a 30% Itachi that wasn't trying? 1 move ahead? That fully explains their first encounter


??? What does being close to the 4th and 5th have to do with this thread?????

The only seal itachi has shown is the evil sealing method.... Itachi not only having totsuka and its sealing properties also invented the Transcription fuinjutsu as well as whatever sealing method he uses to store crows and latent abilities into people ...

I can go own.. i'd rather not

But the thing is it does have correlations to being a better ninja. His implication on Sakumo was that Sakumo probably taught Kakashi, when kakashi was a little kid..

Well what feats of taijutsu on par of Kakashi does living itachi have?

THe stuff you are talking about are the explanations he gave for his belief. Also, Itachi had a sharingan..... he had the power to back up the skill.. Kakashi didn't have a KKG like that. Hence why fundamentals are the basics of ninja tech.. which Kakashi learned before Itachi (Academy graduation age).

Just like you claimed Itachi to be superior in most of the things..from Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu.....


Yea but here is the thing you are comparing a guy who is mostly KKG powered to a guy who can be raw without the sharingan.. Nullify the KKGs Kakashi is the better ninja due to having better fundementals. I mean hell Sakura has better basics/Fundamentals than Naruto and Sasuke..

 

[XxLapizxLazulixX]

Do I have to waste my time explaining that being taught by a "hokage" doesn't in any way correlate to being a better ninja than a ninja who wasn't ?

Do I have to waste my time explaining that insinuating by just being the son of a legendary ninja doesn't somehow make you a better ninja that those who weren't

Must I go through questioning minator on how exactly he came to the conclusion that Kakashi has greater taijutsu than Itachi ?

I don't even get his "Kakashi was in the anbu " point.... Itachi became an Anbu captain ..for all the years Kakashi was in the Anbu he couldn't out rank a 13 year old boy.. and went on to PRAISE that feat when he returned to the village...

Outsmarted a 30% Itachi that wasn't trying? 1 move ahead? That fully explains their first encounter


??? What does being close to the 4th and 5th have to do with this thread?????

The only seal itachi has shown is the evil sealing method.... Itachi not only having totsuka and its sealing properties also invented the Transcription fuinjutsu as well as whatever sealing method he uses to store crows and latent abilities into people ...

I can go own.. i'd rather not

too much sense made.
Way to solo

 

[Minator93]

Do I have to waste my time explaining that being taught by a "hokage" doesn't in any way correlate to being a better ninja than a ninja who wasn't ?

Do I have to waste my time explaining that insinuating by just being the son of a legendary ninja doesn't somehow make you a better ninja that those who weren't

Must I go through questioning minator on how exactly he came to the conclusion that Kakashi has greater taijutsu than Itachi ?

I don't even get his "Kakashi was in the anbu " point.... Itachi became an Anbu captain ..for all the years Kakashi was in the Anbu he couldn't out rank a 13 year old boy.. and went on to PRAISE that feat when he returned to the village...

Outsmarted a 30% Itachi that wasn't trying? 1 move ahead? That fully explains their first encounter


??? What does being close to the 4th and 5th have to do with this thread?????

The only seal itachi has shown is the evil sealing method.... Itachi not only having totsuka and its sealing properties also invented the Transcription fuinjutsu as well as whatever sealing method he uses to store crows and latent abilities into people ...

I can go own.. i'd rather not

Oh but it does:

1. "A good teacher would naturally produce a good disciple" - Jiraya

2. Having Legendary father, um let me see we have Hiruzen, Kakashi, Naruto, Garra, Ay all with legendary fathers and are top tier excellent shinobis.

3. Kakashi beat Obito in taijutsu who was Itachi's teacher, Kakashi beat Itachi in that mini taijutsu match, Kakashi proved to be 1-step ahead of Itachi in close combat as proven. Kakashi has fought with edo jinchurikis with taijutsu and has soloed the 7 swordsmen, his feats put him above Itachi in taijutsu.

4. It means Kakashi knows how the Anbu works and has the "Anbu" experience which ultimately adds to his battle experience/versatility and knowledge which makes a better shinobi.

5. Being close to 4th,3rd adn 5th means a lot of knowledge and information which makes you a better Shinobi. Being Close to Minato, Kakashi got to learn Rasengan, he developed Chidori. And worked hard to become a leader because he wanted to beat Minato.

6. Dunno what seal are you talking about

7. I could go on but I'd rather not U_U

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Fundemental wise kakashi takes the edge. His elemental techs outweigh itachi's two fireballs and water drill.

Kakashi solo'd the greatest of the hidden mist swordsman with zabuza's sword. So he obviously takes the kenjutsu situation. And to add to that he can run lightning in his weapons so yeah.

Itachi takes it in genjutsu.

Handseals don't really matter anymore(most techs use one) but itachi still takes it.

And kakashi takes stamina.

Taijutsu is even.

This far in the manga. Itachi's only advantage is ms techs when it comes to kakashi. at fundementals kakashi is better.

 

[itachi4real]

Wow people are really comparing itachi to kakashi....tsukuyomi ends him...taijutsu is better. Ninjutsu is better. All kakashi ever uses is either kamui or chidori. Genjutsu, obviously itachi solos in that category. People fail to understand itachi was forever holding back everytime u saw him fight. He mastered the sharingan at an really early age and became anbu captain at age 13. And must u not forge everytime kakashi saw itachi, itachi struck fear in him.

 

[xKiD SPiiD3rMaN]

Wasn't Kakashi an Anbu Captain too at a point? I swear I thought that's how he and Yamato had a relationship before Team 7.

They are coming out with a filler from that time too. Hopefully it rocks.

OT: Kakashi was a Jonin at like 9. That alone is pretty much the greatest feat for fundamentals in the series IMO

 

[Owarij]

But the thing is it does have correlations to being a better ninja. His implication on Sakumo was that Sakumo probably taught Kakashi, when kakashi was a little kid..

Well what feats of taijutsu on par of Kakashi does living itachi have?

THe stuff you are talking about are the explanations he gave for his belief. Also, Itachi had a sharingan..... he had the power to back up the skill.. Kakashi didn't have a KKG like that. Hence why fundamentals are the basics of ninja tech.. which Kakashi learned before Itachi (Academy graduation age).

Just like you claimed Itachi to be superior in most of the things..from Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu.....


Yea but here is the thing you are comparing a guy who is mostly KKG powered to a guy who can be raw without the sharingan.. Nullify the KKGs Kakashi is the better ninja due to having better fundementals. I mean hell Sakura has better basics/Fundamentals than Naruto and Sasuke..

That was not his implication at all...Because Kakashi's father was such a legend, such a genius, it caused kakashi to become cocky and look down on other people

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That's all there is to it.. Kakashi spent a small part of his child hood with this man.. We don't know when he died, what age.. for all you know kakashi was just age 6. and couldn't possibly have learned too much from him... So if you want to make those claims, you should start writing a spinoff series

Please enlighten me on how edo tensei improved Itachi's taijutsu skills


No idea what the point you're trying to get across is, would you rephrase it?

I was listing databook stats.. I never said Itachi is better in ninjutsu.. I gave that to kakashi, As for Taijutsu, I said equal, and Genjutsu is by far itachi and not arguable

Horrible argument.. Kakashi didn't spend his entire life with sharingan and didn't have that tool to aid him.... Itachi did.. If you took away the sharingan from Itachi, his entire life would have been different, his training would have been different, You can't just say " Take away gaaras sand, and what all you have is a shitty hokage" That's dumb logic, because gaara revolved his life around training with sand.. You wouldn't know what he'd become if he didn't.. It's the same with Itachi.. without sharingan.. all we do know is his genius level intellect would not be diminished

 

[itachi4real]

Fundemental wise kakashi takes the edge. His elemental techs outweigh itachi's two fireballs and water drill.

Kakashi solo'd the greatest of the hidden mist swordsman with zabuza's sword. So he obviously takes the kenjutsu situation. And to add to that he can run lightning in his weapons so yeah.

Itachi takes it in genjutsu.

Handseals don't really matter anymore(most techs use one) but itachi still takes it.

And kakashi takes stamina.

Taijutsu is even.

This far in the manga. Itachi's only advantage is ms techs when it comes to kakashi. at fundementals kakashi is better.

Taijutsu is even? Seriously? Kakashi is slower in taijutsu. As u can see when they fought with 30% itachi. When kakashi still had an advantage by coming out from under itachi and itachi still dodged his attavk and managed to MAKE kakashi look in his eyes!

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Taijutsu is even? Seriously? Kakashi is slower in taijutsu. As u can see when they fought with 30% itachi. When kakashi still had an advantage by coming out from under itachi and itachi still dodged his attavk and managed to MAKE kakashi look in his eyes!

A 30% itachi vs a 10% kakashi and the best itachi got him to do was look in his eyes? Your lucky I said it was even.

 

[itachi4real]

Wasn't Kakashi an Anbu Captain too at a point? I swear I thought that's how he and Yamato had a relationship before Team 7.

They are coming out with a filler from that time too. Hopefully it rocks.

OT: Kakashi was a Jonin at like 9. That alone is pretty much the greatest feat for fundamentals in the series IMO

:| i see u know nothing at all. Kakashi was just in the anbu but wasnt an captain. He became a jonin at age 14-16. Itachi became captain at age 13

 

[itachi4real]

A 30% itachi vs a 10% kakashi and the best itachi got him to do was look in his eyes? Your lucky I said it was even.

What? Like i said kakashi's taijutsu isnt seeing itachi's. MSsasuke even kept up with kakashi's taijutsu like it wasnt nothing. When kakashi threw the punch HE EASILY DODGED THE S***

 

[xKiD SPiiD3rMaN]

:| i see u know nothing at all. Kakashi was just in the anbu but wasnt an captain. He became a jonin at age 14-16. Itachi became captain at age 13

LOL I see you know nothing actually.

Obito is 4 years older than Kakashi. Kakashi Gaiden happens when Obito was 13. So Kakashi would be 9.

And again, I was clearly asking a question about Kakashi being Yamato's superior. People generally ask questions to have things clarified for them. But hey...

What? Like i said kakashi's taijutsu isnt seeing itachi's. MSsasuke even kept up with kakashi's taijutsu like it wasnt nothing. When kakashi threw the punch HE EASILY DODGED THE S***

How does bringing up MS Sasuke help you when Itachi stalemated Hebi Sasuke in Taijutsu? and clearly Kakashi had the upper hand in taijutsu against Sasuke. smh.

 

[Owarij]

2. Having Legendary father, um let me see we have Hiruzen, Kakashi, Naruto, Garra, Ay all with legendary fathers and are top tier excellent shinobis.

....Are you serious? Minator?
Naruto's father died the day he was born
Gaara's father stayed away from him and tried to have him killed


Do you think being born from a great ninja gives you genes that automatically makes you legendary as well...? Please tell me you're joking..

Was Madara born from a legendary ninja? Was Hashirama born from a legendary ninja? Was Sasuke (Who can defeat a few people on your "list" born from a legendary ninja? Was Nagato born from a legendary ninja?

That has Literally...zero to do with the matter at hand.. 0 to do with who was the better ninja at the basis of their skills..
And with this , I think i'll disappear again and go back to my studying

 

[itachi4real]

LOL I see you know nothing actually.

Obito is 4 years older than Kakashi. Kakashi Gaiden happens when Obito was 13. So Kakashi would be 9.

And again, I was clearly asking a question about Kakashi being Yamato's superior. People generally ask questions to have things clarified for them. But hey...



How does bringing up MS Sasuke help you when Itachi stalemated Hebi Sasuke in Taijutsu? and clearly Kakashi had the upper hand in taijutsu against Sasuke. smh.

Itachi smashed hebi sasuke in taijutsu...omg u need to go watch that video again. I brought up sasuke cus itachi is either equal or better than sasuke....and seeing as their equal a really banged up sasuke kept up with his taijutsu.

And bruh go look up what age kakshi became a jonin then come holla at a nigga

 

[xKiD SPiiD3rMaN]

Itachi smashed hebi sasuke in taijutsu...omg u need to go watch that video again. I brought up sasuke cus itachi is either equal or better than sasuke....and seeing as their equal a really banged up sasuke kept up with his taijutsu.

And bruh go look up what age kakshi became a jonin then come holla at a nigga

I don't remember him getting smashed. I remember a genjutsu fight then a small taijutsu and shuriken jutsu skirmish and then it was pretty much Ninjutsu from Sasuke and MS jutsu from Itachi for rest of the fight.

And there is no official listing that says what age he was when he became Jonin. But there is an age for his acad graduation which was 5. And his chuunin promotion which was 6 and was backed by manga facts. Then we have Obito who we know was in Kakashi's class. His Acad grad age was 9 and his Chuunin promotion age was 11.

Which fits in perfectly with him being 4 years older than him because Obito was not made a chuunin at the same year as when Kakashi was at the age of 6 (shown by the manga) either chapter 599 or 600. Instead he was made a chuunin the next year.

So if we go by the ages then Kakashi was chuunin at 6 and Obito failed the year he was 10. The next year at 11 he was promoted, and then Kakashi gaiden happens 2 years later. Putting Kakashi at 9 and Obito at 13.

That also gives Obito about 5 years to train with his Zetsu body/under Madara and do his bidding so he was 18 when he fought Minato instead of 14 like people thought before. Kakashi was 14 and this is proven because that fight took place 12 years before the start of the series and Kakashi is 26 at the start of the series.

Perfect logic.

 

[itachi4real]

I don't remember him getting smashed. I remember a genjutsu fight then a small taijutsu and shuriken jutsu skirmish and then it was pretty much Ninjutsu from Sasuke and MS jutsu from Itachi for rest of the fight.

And there is no official listing that says what age he was when he became Jonin. But there is an age for his acad graduation which was 5. And his chuunin promotion which was 6 and was backed by manga facts. Then we have Obito who we know was in Kakashi's class. His Acad grad age was 9 and his Chuunin promotion age was 11.

Which fits in perfectly with him being 4 years older than him because Obito was not made a chuunin at the same year as when Kakashi was at the age of 6 (shown by the manga) either chapter 599 or 600. Instead he was made a chuunin the next year.

So if we go by the ages then Kakashi was chuunin at 6 and Obito failed the year he was 10. The next year at 11 he was promoted, and then Kakashi gaiden happens 2 years later. Putting Kakashi at 9 and Obito at 13.

That also gives Obito about 5 years to train with his Zetsu body/under Madara and do his bidding so he was 18 when he fought Minato instead of 14 like people thought before. Kakashi was 14 and this is proven because that fight took place 12 years before the start of the series and Kakashi is 26 at the start of the series.

Perfect logic.

Alright im done this s*** is confusing me

 

[KingHashirama]

That was not his implication at all...Because Kakashi's father was such a legend, such a genius, it caused kakashi to become cocky and look down on other people

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There would be no reason for Kakashi to look down on others if he himself wasn't that good and trained by a genius.

- Itachi has the freedom to take any risk he needs to take
- Itachi's edo tensei style was totally different from his living style
- Itachi bears no restrain on the body.

See here is the thing though. Madara was called a genius and praised as one by Hashirama's daddy, yet Madara claimed Hashirama was the stronger one. Madara had the sharingan, while Hashirama created his mokuton techniques and etc.

Uchiha no matter what have always been regarded as geniuses, due to their sharingan. This is why its a big deal in this scenario. Because you really don't need to work on your fundamentals to be good with the sharingan. Itachi got so high due to the sharingan.


However, the thread is about fundamentals... which is how Kakashi went high up.

Also, you can take away the Sharingan from Madara and you still have a shinobi who is pretty good. You can take away Mokuton from Hashirama you still have a easily Kage level ninja... Fundamentals are basics... not KKG techs. Thats like saying Naruto is a master in fundamentals because of BSM.... no.