So, WHO can beat Orange Mask Tobi? (Full intel, no prep time)

[Takos]

Kakashi is not beating Obito. Mokuton and Izanagi > fodder techniques of Kakashi with Raikiri

If only Obito could agree on the statement that Kakashi's "fodder" techniques don't work on him. Lol
But he can't, since Kakashi got him a nice hole in the chest. U_U

 

[Strict]

This is a very interesting argument, however, Kakashi has a counter to Izanagi:
he can simply teleport away. While both Kakashi and Obito can use Kamui for teleporting wherever they want, everything indicates they can specify the location of teleport, not the target. Meaning, if Obito doesn't know where Kakashi teleports, he can't chase him.
Thus, Obito would waste an eye. And he certainly wouldn't use his MS eye for Izanagi, because he'd lose Kamui, which would be fatal for him.

Also, why do you say their fight in Kamui dimension wasn't a fair one? It certainly was, it started in the normal dimension with Obito attacking Kakashi and Kakashi then used his Kamui to teleport both of them to kamuiland. That's a fully legitimate way of defeating someone.

Flawed in several points. Obito always teleported to exactly the location he wanted, with the exact specification of the target. I remind you that Obito teleported inside of Oonoki's Jinton cube to safe Sasuke, and also Kakashi who teleported right before Obito in the latest chapter. If I agreed with you, that would lead to Obito's victory nevertheless, since Kakashi would flee from the battle to an unknown location and stay there. Obito could leave the location as well so Kakashi couldn't find him. But past showed, that the user of Kamui can always specify where he teleports, whether the location or to a certain person.

Another point called worth is, that Kakashi and Obito possess the same eyes and mentioned they could see what the other sees. So presumably, Obito could see the location through Kakashi's Sharingan and vice versa.

But in an actual fight, only Izanami can stop Izanagi in canon. So Kakashi would have no choice than outlast the Izanagi.

And as for their fight in the Kamui dimension, another member's post covered it quite perfectly.

Certainly, that puny sparing match wasn't held on fair grounds. Though it is true that Obito got beaten, their prior engagements unveil that he should have been the clear victor - not even by a margin, at that - even without Kamui being on the table.

Presumably, Obito was already quite exhausted to begin with. The very fact that he failed at landing on his feet [

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] and tried to pointlessly delay the fight using optical Genjutsu against another Sharingan supports that hypothesis just as much as the absence of Chakra draining [

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] Mokuton [

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], legendary Katon [

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] and barrier Ninjutsu [

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]; a man going all out wouldn't abstain from these powers. Additionally, Obito had to preserve what little Chakra he had left in order to utilize the technique he later performed to become Juubi's Jinchuuriki. As it was able to seal an entity of Juubi's level nigh instantly, the consumed amount of Chakra must have been enormous; when Obito initiated the Jutsu, his stamina was squeezed out to a point where his hair turned white, signalizing his reserves reached their limit. Had he not been exhausted, that change in colour wouldn't have occured; had he exhausted himself more, however, the technique might've failed due to a lack of stamina. Accordingly, every slight amount of Chakra must've been indescribably valuable to Obito during his fight with Kakashi, forcing him to hold back.

Of course, the fight did show that, after all, Kakashi's natural talent still exceeded Obito's; only at the cost of the latter's strongest moves, though. In the end, Obito managed to temporarily trap Kakashi within Kamui's realm and to become the Juubi's host before Madara could; which I'd consider clear success.

 

[Takos]

Flawed in several points. Obito always teleported to exactly the location he wanted, with the exact specification of the target. I remind you that Obito teleported inside of Oonoki's Jinton cube to safe Sasuke, and also Kakashi who teleported right before Obito in the lat chapter.

Note that Obito arrived in time to save Sasuke - implying he was at least near enough to know he's in danger. Nothing indicates he teleported to a target, and not location, since he knew Sasuke's whereabouts.

The same goes for Kakashi in the latest chapter - for the few last chapters Kakashi was shown to see through Obito's eyes, so once again, he knew his position.

If I agreed with you, that would lead to Obito's victory nevertheless, since Kakashi would flee from the battle to an unknown location and stay there. Obito could leave the location as well so Kakashi couldn't find him.

Indeed, it would lead to a draw, with the battle not coming to its conclusion. I don't understand, however, why you say this would lead to Obito's victory. A draw, as I said.
What's more, it would actually weaken Obito, as he'd sacrifice an eye.
Nevertheless, I agree that it wouldn't lead to Kakashi's victory, but it wouldn't lead to Obito's, either.

But past showed, that the user of Kamui can always specify where he teleports, whether the location or to a certain person.

As I showed with the examples of Sasuke and Kakashi, that's not the case. Moreover, if that was so, then there wouldn't be so much stress in the manga about keeping the jinchuuriki's location secret during the war. Kisame also wouldn't need to risk his life (and die) to deliver location intel to Obito, because Obito could have simply teleported to either Naruto or Bee.

As you see, it's just too flawed of a theory.

Another point called worth is, that Kakashi and Obito possess the same eyes and mentioned they could see what the other sees. So preumably, Obito could see the location through Kakashi's Sharingan and vice versa.

THere are two problems with this:
1. Neither of them seem to be able to control when they want these visions to occur.
2. It seems that these visions only occur when they are close to each other (to all our knowledge, Kakashi hasn't experienced any such visions during these 17 years).

But in an actual fight, only Izanami can stop Izanagi in canon. So Kakashi would have no choice than outlast the Izanagi.

Or stop the fight as stated. Basically, Izanagi results in a draw.

And as for their fight in the Kamui dimension, another member's post covered it quite perfectly.

As for the other member's post, from the very first statement I'm under the impression that he wants to downplay Kakashi and the feats shown in this fight.

But I will reply to his points:

Presumably, Obito was already quite exhausted to begin with. The very fact that he failed at landing on his feet

There is nothing to indicate Obito was exhausted. He never seemed to be tired, and Kishi pretty much always gives signs of characters nearing the end of their chakra. To me, it looks just like a baseless assumption, especially considering he had all the bijuu's chakra in his possession and controlled the Juubi afterwards.
Him not landing on his feet is a poor excuse. It was Kakashi who warped the two, so obviously it was also Kakashi who had the upper ground a second after they arrived.

and tried to pointlessly delay the fight using optical Genjutsu against another Sharingan supports that hypothesis

No, it doesn't. Obito was a master of genjutsu, it's obvious that few Sharingan wielders have genjutsu comparable. He couldn't have known that Kakashi is so proficient with it.

What's more, if Obito was really trying to preserve his chakra as much as possible, as this member says later on, HE would have been the one to suggest to Kakashi to stop it and fight for real, but he didn't.

just as much as the absence of Chakra draining

What exactly?

Mokuton

The page you provided just shows that Obito's Mokuton is nothing special. It could probably be cut down with Raikiri, so what point was there in using it? Just because Obito didn't use EVERY jutsu in his arsenal doesn't mean he couldn't.
Otherwise I'd argue that Kakashi started the fight low on chakra when he faced Itachi in Part 1 because he didn't use Raikiri in that fight. That would be silly.

legendary Katon

He most likely couldn't use it, seeing as he uses Kamui for it and they were in kamuiland, and also seeing how BR is big enough to be called "legendary" only if used very long range. It wouldn't cut it in their close to mid-range fight, that's why Obito used a goukakyuu instead.

barrier Ninjutsu

This barrier was only shown to be defensive. We know it doesn't allow anyone or anything to enter it, but we have no evidence of it not allowing whatever is inside to escape it.
Or maybe we'll assume Obito was low on chakra when he first started fighting Naruto and Bee, because he didn't try the barrier on any of them?

Obito had to preserve what little Chakra he had left in order to utilize the technique he later performed to become Juubi's Jinchuuriki.

Obito having little chakra is a weak assumption, though.

when Obito initiated the Jutsu, his stamina was squeezed out to a point where his hair turned white, signalizing his reserves reached their limit.

I see no evidence of this, either. Kakashi died of chakra exhaustion, so he reached his limit, as opposed to Obito, who supposedly just got near it, and his silver hair didn't change color to white. It was Nagato's case, which doesn't mean it's the same with Obito, especially when it's different with other characters.

Another argument against Obito conserving his chakra to later use it on absorbing Juubi is that he could have returned to the real dimension and do it right away, instead of fighting Kakashi at all.
That's not all, he could have done it way earlier. If he felt he was low on chakra, he WOULD have done it, because we know Obito is not stupid.

Hm, I think that's all. :heh:

 

[Strict]

I'll give my response to my post, the other member will probably do it for his.

Fleeing from the battle like Kakashi would do, would end in Obito's victory, since you can't call it a draw if one runs away. The same can be said about Obito as well, who could possibly draw with any other individual by just leaving the battle and teleport to another location.

But I have another scan clearing up more that Obito can most likely detect his targets.

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When Minato teleported away from Obito, latter followed him (saying he couldn't escape). You can base it on whatever you want, Obito being a sensor, plot, etc. But he can teleport to the target he desires. So fleeing from battle is in any case not possible.

In the long run, it's not the sense of this battle that one of the combatants flees to escape eventual defeat. The sense is to let them face each other, determining the superior one. And at this point, Izanagi will give Kakashi a run for his money. He coud survive it if acting wisely, not wasting his Chakra. But in order to handle whatever Obito throws at him during this period, he would indeed need a majority of his Chakra.

I recall the point Kakashi was barely able to keep consciousness due to the limit of his Chakra, displaying Obito as the victor.

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Anything has been said from my side now.

 

[Takos]

I'll give my response to my post, the other member will probably do it for his.

Fleeing from the battle like Kakashi would do, would end in Obito's victory, since you can't call it a draw if one runs away. The same can be said about Obito as well, who could possibly draw with any other individual by just leaving the battle and teleport to another location.

Ok, I hear what you're saying, if you put it this way, then yes, Obito defeats Kakashi.
What I meant, however, is a battle to the death, so for the sake of this criterium I consider backing off to end in a draw.
Besides, I also want to mention that it's not the same as Obito being able to end any fight with a draw by running away, because in the case of scenario we're talking about, Obito WOULD end up weakened (losing an eye due to Izanagi).
I think we've settled this point, though.

But I have another scan clearing up more that Obito can most likely detect his targets.

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Once again, the location where Minato teleported was not extremely far away.
It is a valid argument for Obito being able to teleport to targets and not just locations, but it still leaves room for the other one.

As I said, there is no reason whatsover why Kisame's intel on jinchuuriki's location or Obito waiting for them to come out of hiding would occur if Obito could teleport to anyone.

In the long run, it's not the sense of this battle that one of the combatants flees to escape eventual defeat. The sense is to let them face each other, determining the superior one. And at this point, Izanagi will give Kakashi a run for his money. He coud survive it if acting wisely, not wasting his Chakra. But in order to handle whatever Obito throws at him during this period, he would indeed need a majority of his Chakra.

I agree with this.

I recall the point Kakashi was barely able to keep consciousness due to the limit of his Chakra, displaying Obito as the victor.

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Yes, but you need to keep in mind that:
-When Kakashi joined the fray against Obito, he was already after a day of fights (same goes for Guy and to a lesser extent also Naruto and Bee), while Obito has just begun fighting
-Most of Kakashi's remaining chakra in that fight was used for gaining intel, but in this scenario Kakashi already has full intel

 

[Strict]

Once again, the location where Minato teleported was not extremely far away.
It is a valid argument for Obito being able to teleport to targets and not just locations, but it still leaves room for the other one.

The distance doesn't matter however, because Obito did follow Minato despite he teleported to another location.

As I said, there is no reason whatsover why Kisame's intel on jinchuuriki's location or Obito waiting for them to come out of hiding would occur if Obito could teleport to anyone.

Probably plot? Obito can teleport himself wherever he wants.

Spoiler

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As you see, Obito can indeed visit a Jinchuriki if he wants, unless you tell me Kakashi told Obito the location of Naruto, who was hunting for Jinchuriki. As you see from this scene, Obito just appeared where Naruto was, and could also have absorbed him instead of talking with him. There was no need to hastle when hunting the Jinchuriki.

I proved you with several scans that there is no need to worry about Obito's ability to teleport to the location or person he wants.

 

[Takos]

The distance doesn't matter however, because Obito did follow Minato despite e teleported to another location.


Probably plot? Obito can teleport himself wherever he wants.

Spoiler

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As you see, Obito can indeed visit a Jinchuriki if he wants, unless you tell me Kakashi told Obito the location of Naruto, who was hunting for Jinchuriki. As you see from this scene, Obito just appeared where Naruto was, and could also have absorbed him instead of talking with him. There was no need to hastle when hunting the Jinchuriki.

I proved you with several scans that there is no need to worry about Obito's ability to teleport to the location or person he wants.

Plot is never a valid argument for anything, or else the discussion is rendered completely pointless.
For example: I may turn the things around and claim that it's not plot for Obito not to know the location of the Turtle Island, but it's actually plot for him to teleport to Minato, Naruto, etc.
Or I may say that it's plot for Kakashi not to kamui Deva and Preta.
Or I may even go as far as to say it's plot that Madara solo'd the kage.

If you find something that you can't explain other than with plot, you just need to look for explanation elsewhere.

When I spoke about short distance as a factor against Minato, I meant to say that Obito knew perfectly well Minato would not get away far (even if he could, he wanted to protect the attacked village, after all), so he only needed to search around a bit. With teleportation and seeing chakra it's possible.

I agree that Obito didn't want to catch Naruto right away and that he could have in the situation you posted a picture of, but that still doesn't explain him risking Kisame's life to gather intel he could have gained in a few seconds on his own.

Naruto's case can be explained by Obito searching for him, as I don't think anything indicates that he didn't.

If you find a valid enough reason for sending Kisame to gather intel on jinchuuriki's location, though, then I'll admit that Obito and Kakashi can teleport to specific targets. But plot doesn't cut it.

 

[SubtleMind]

With full intel on Kamui, I think a number of people can beat MS Tobi. People seem to overrate that version of Obito because of his intangibility and various katon and mokuton (and that ability is still questionable seeing as he was wearing zetsu suit). The fact of the matter is, MS Tobi was at least injured in every fight he was in, in the manga without them having knowledge. So with full intel on him, his bread and butter kamui becomes half as effective against the likes of Pain (who likely knew about it to began with, like Konan), Minato (who actually beat him), Itachi, Kakashi, Onoki, Muu, Naruto, etc. All have at least the skills, fire power and /or smarts to win. Especially with intel. I could mention more, but I believe I've made my point.

 

[Strict]

Maybe there are specific locations which aren't easy to find. We can only assume this. That there are certain locations which can't be find without specific knowledge. But we have the fact that Obito had no problemt to teleport to the location Naruto was. It's strange, yes. But I see no reason Obito couldn't teleport with his Kamui to the location Kakashi teleports with his Kamui.

But anyway that doesn't matter, as we don't consider that as a legit fight if one ends the fight by teleporting away and hide. It isn't a loss for Obito to waste a Sharingan for Izanagi. His hideout is full of Sharingan he obtained by the Uchiha massacre.

So imo, if the only way you see Kakashi to handle Izanagi is to teleport away until his technique runs out, Obito is the superior one. The very fact Obito forces Kakashi to escape from the battle, makes him the superior one.

 

[Takos]

Maybe there are specific locations which aren't easy to find. We can only assume this. That there are certain locations which can't be find without specific knowledge. But we have the fact that Obito had no problemt to teleport to the location Naruto was. It's strange, yes. But I see no reason Obito couldn't teleport with his Kamui to the location Kakashi teleports with his Kamui.

But anyway that doesn't matter, as we don't consider that as a legit fight if one ends the fight by teleporting away and hide. It isn't a loss for Obito to waste a Sharingan for Izanagi. His hideout is full of Sharingan he obtained by the Uchiha massacre.

So imo, if the only way you see Kakashi to handle Izanagi is to teleport away until his technique runs out, Obito is the superior one. The very fact Obito forces Kakashi to escape from the battle, makes him the superior one.

Indeed.
The theory I can come up with that would explain all of this is that Obito can teleport to specific targets, but only if they're not TOO far away. Thus, an island floating somewhere in the sea was out of his reach, but Minato, who was still on the borders of Konoha, or Naruto, who was in a town close to Kage Summit where Obito was at this point, could be reached.

This is speculation based solely on what the manga showed us, but without anything more to back it up, so I think discussing it further is pointless.

Unless we exclude Izanagi now, then I guess the talk ends here.

The very fact Obito forces Kakashi to escape from the battle, makes him the superior one.

I don't agree with this, though.
You admitted yourself that if Kakashi teleports away from the fight when Izanagi is used, Obito will teleport himself away, too, to get a new eye. Once Kakashi returns, Obito will have been long gone, himself retreating from the fight he knows would be too dangerous without Izanagi.

The way I see it, Kakashi retreating with intent to return after several minutes is more like temporarily going into hiding from enemy's jutsu. It's the enemy in this case who decides to retreat after his jutsu fails.

But well, I think that's it. We're done here, both of us said what we wanted to say and I think we got our points across. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Draphsin]

If only Obito could agree on the statement that Kakashi's "fodder" techniques don't work on him. Lol
But he can't, since Kakashi got him a nice hole in the chest. U_U

Without kamui genius u_u

 

[Fireplay]

Hashi, Madara, Naruto, Nagato?