[Discussion] Who said Uchiha or Senju (pure-blood) have a lot of chakra reserves?

[FearxDeath]

No. What I said is that he could develop his potential with better results than an average shinobi, given a certain amount efforts (both average shinobi and Naruto trains 2 hours a day, for instance, would give 1 yin and 1 yang to the average shinobi, while Naruto would get 3 yin and 3 yang).

So then you agree that any ninja could increase their own levels of Yin and Yang energies through hard work and training.

 

[Mr Hiru]

So then you agree that any ninja could increase their own levels of Yin and Yang energies through hard work and training.

Of course I do (With the limitation that the efficacy of their efforts will vary depending on their potential in each type of energy).

To put a practical example, I bet in part 1 Sasuke's chakra was way more powerful than Naruto's chakra, but Naruto had way more chakra than Sasuke. This is the reason of why Naruto's rasengan was able to do more damage in the battle of the Hospital, but after the improvements Sasuke was the winner in the Valley of the End.

Chidori + Spiritual Energy > Rasengan (even if we knew Sasuke didn't have more chakra than Naruto in part 1).

The physical energy used by Naruto in the Valley of the End only healed his wounds, but didn't make his techniques more powerful like now in the war.

 

[osba]

I have the impression you got it wrong. Your first manga reference makes reference to the use of both Kurama Yang Energy and Sage Mode. Kurama was stating Naruto couldn't use the 'fusion' between the Sage Toads and himself because Kurama wouldn't share space with them inside Naruto's body.

Do you remember what happened before Naruto awakened Bijuu Sage Mode?

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Apparently Naruto now holds the ratio pretty much balanced.

that's not what its about.... its about the ratios needing to be balanced.. naruto has FAR from enough yin energy to make up for the yang energy of the kyuubi.... in the fight with pain naruto got himself hit on purpose and only released a bit of kyuubi chakra so he could mix it up with pure yin energy to make the right ratios.... according to kurama it was however accidental and it just happened to "fuse" well guess what.. it does not work like that. the ratios need to be correct.. BUT since kurama said that it just happened, i guess you can create yin chakra out of yang and thus the kyuubi's chakra was already balanced correctly... its not hard to understand.

kurama SAID it was about him not allowing it, but it should have been kurama saying it was because now he DOES have enough yin chakra to balance it out..

since he said it was because he wasnt allowing for it, we can assume that yin and yang energy quite simply does not mean a thing anymore.. like kishi is just trying to dumb it down for "normal" fans to understand it too..

Why do you keep quoting yourself all the time? that's a bad habit you know Lol

HAHAHA REALLY???

Actually many did, and it will later be revealed that the Ohtsutsuki (Ohzuzuki w/Japanese Dakuten) and Uzumaki bloodline are one and the same

YOU are one of the most self-absorbed persons i have ever met.. how DARE you say anything about him lol...

How does the above show that if you have Yang Energies you can create Yin energies effortlessly?

because kurama said it was because he didnt want naruto to depend on sage mode before, not because he did not have the yin to balance out for sage mode. its not hard to understand, im just terrible at explaining.. x)

Of course I do (With the limitation that the efficacy of their efforts will vary depending on their potential in each type of energy).

To put a practical example, I bet in part 1 Sasuke's chakra was way more powerful than Naruto's chakra, but Naruto had way more chakra than Sasuke. This is the reason of why Naruto's rasengan was able to do more damage in the battle of the Hospital, but after the improvements Sasuke was the winner in the Valley of the End.

Chidori + Spiritual Energy > Rasengan (even if we knew Sasuke didn't have more chakra than Naruto in part 1).

The physical energy used by Naruto in the Valley of the End only healed his wounds, but didn't make his techniques more powerful like now in the war.

sasuke was fighting to kill..

 

[FearxDeath]

Of course I do (With the limitation that the efficacy of their efforts will vary depending on their potential in each type of energy).

To put a practical example, I bet in part 1 Sasuke's chakra was way more powerful than Naruto's chakra, but Naruto had way more chakra than Sasuke. This is the reason of why Naruto's rasengan was able to do more damage in the battle of the Hospital, but after the improvements Sasuke was the winner in the Valley of the End.

Chidori + Spiritual Energy > Rasengan (even if we knew Sasuke didn't have more chakra than Naruto in part 1).

The physical energy used by Naruto in the Valley of the End only healed his wounds, but didn't make his techniques more powerful like now in the war.

I don't necessarily agree with your examples but I get the point your making.

[Sir Derp Obito] YOU are one of the most self-absorbed persons i have ever met.. how DARE you say anything about him lol...


because kurama said it was because he didnt want naruto to depend on sage mode before, not because he did not have the yin to balance out for sage mode. its not hard to understand, im just terrible at explaining.. x)

Whoa whoa, Lets watch the way we talk about the Derp. Dont get me wrong Osba you've made some great threads in your time, But Derp has come up with some of the most profound threads ive ever seen. I give both of you respect for actually being knowledgeable, dont disappoint me by flaming each other.


KM SM Naruto is merely Naruto using SM while in KM. Naruto could go always go into KM, Naruto could always go into SM, so why couldnt Naruto do both at the same time? Kurama said it was because he was upset with Naruto and thus wouldnt allow it. Which is a fairly sketchy a$$ pull, but makes sense.

I guess I just dont see where Kurama's Yin comes into play here.

 

[Armathyx]

Dudes... you're all wrong.

Chakra reserves are determined by plot.

Remember that time when Sasuke was fighting Deidara? He was so out of chakra that he couldn't even stand on his feet anymore. And yet, he managed to summon Manda (a very high level summon) and use a space-time technique to warp his ass away from the nuke. Where did the chakra come from? Plot.

Or that time when Kakashi fought Pain and ran out of chakra while using just 4-5 of his typical jutsu, yet now during the Shinobi war he can warp himself in and out of Kamui dimension without always having Kurama there to help him and still kick Obito's ass inside of it?

And finally the worst of all... Naruto, who's chakra reserves have been made infinite just for the simplicity of it. The whole notion of having to save up chakra for the right moment is gone through the window with him. He can just keep going forever without ever having to worry about getting tired. Not plot at all.

Now theoretically... Senju have big chakra reserves. Don't know what you're on about, Hirudora, everyone knows this.

 

[Mr Hiru]

that's not what its about.... its about the ratios needing to be balanced.. naruto has FAR from enough yin energy to make up for the yang energy of the kyuubi.... in the fight with pain naruto got himself hit on purpose and only released a bit of kyuubi chakra so he could mix it up with pure yin energy to make the right ratios.... according to kurama it was however accidental and it just happened to "fuse" well guess what.. it does not work like that. the ratios need to be correct.. BUT since kurama said that it just happened, i guess you can create yin chakra out of yang and thus the kyuubi's chakra was already balanced correctly... its not hard to understand.

kurama SAID it was about him not allowing it, but it should have been kurama saying it was because now he DOES have enough yin chakra to balance it out..

since he said it was because he wasnt allowing for it, we can assume that yin and yang energy quite simply does not mean a thing anymore.. like kishi is just trying to dumb it down for "normal" fans to understand it too..

An interesting point of view my friend, a good one in fact... but hold it.

If Naruto has 50 yin units and 50 yang units, and Yang Kurama gives him 100 yang units, then the sum gives him a total of 50 yin and 150 yang. After the first bump, Kurama could get maybe 50 more yin units, making a total of 100 yin and 150 yang.

Who told you Naruto needs to use all his Yang Energy to use sage mode? Why not 100 yin + 100 yang + 100 shizen and keep 50 yang as reserves for health? I don't think he has to create 50 yin from nowhere to have 150 yin + 150 yang + 150 shizen.

About Kurama saying that he could let or not achieve Sage Mode... I wonder if Kurama knew he lacked his Yin half before saying that.

This is just a question to keep in mind. I doubt he has to create Yin energy to achieve bijuu sage mode.

Dudes... you're all wrong.

Chakra reserves are determined by plot.

Remember that time when Sasuke was fighting Deidara? He was so out of chakra that he couldn't even stand on his feet anymore. And yet, he managed to summon Manda (a very high level summon) and use a space-time technique to warp his ass away from the nuke. Where did the chakra come from? Plot.

Or that time when Kakashi fought Pain and ran out of chakra while using just 4-5 of his typical jutsu, yet now during the Shinobi war he can warp himself in and out of Kamui dimension without always having Kurama there to help him and still kick Obito's ass inside of it?

And finally the worst of all... Naruto, who's chakra reserves have been made infinite just for the simplicity of it. The whole notion of having to save up chakra for the right moment is gone through the window with him. He can just keep going forever without ever having to worry about getting tired. Not plot at all.

Now theoretically... Senju have big chakra reserves. Don't know what you're on about, Hirudora, everyone knows this.

I already put in this thread the evidence to counter this. So, as Sir Derp Obito said about 'my bad habit' (Lol), I think this time I won't repeat myself.

About what you said previous to the bolded phrase: ...I just can't argue with that, because I flatly disagree.

 

[Armathyx]

An interesting point of view my friend, a good one in fact... but hold it.

If Naruto has 50 yin units and 50 yang units, and Yang Kurama gives him 100 yang units, then the sum gives him a total of 50 yin and 150 yang. After the first bump, Kurama could get maybe 50 more yin units, making a total of 100 yin and 150 yang.

Who told you Naruto needs to use all his Yang Energy to use sage mode? Why not 100 yin + 100 yang + 100 shizen and keep 50 yang as reserves for health? I don't think he has to create 50 yin from nowhere to have 150 yin + 150 yang + 150 shizen.

About Kurama saying that he could let or not achieve Sage Mode... I wonder if Kurama knew he lacked his Yin half before saying that.

This is just a question to keep in mind. I doubt he has to create Yin energy to achieve bijuu sage mode.



I already put in this thread the evidence to counter this. So, as Sir Derp Obito said about 'my bad habit' (Lol), I think this time I won't repeat myself.

About what you said previous to the bolded phrase: ...I just can't argue with that, because I flatly disagree.

Your evidence didn't counter it. The manga makes it implicit by the examples that were shown to you. You chose to misunderstand those examples on purpose just to create a discussion.

But if you want a very simple fact, take the Sharingan for example. Uchihas can use it regularly during a fight without running out of chakra, for as long as it's not a mangekyo Sharingan. Yet, when it's someone else using those eyes (Kakashi, Danzo), they're counting their chakra reserves on their fingers, and they keep the eyes hidden during normal situations partly because the Sharingan uses a lot of chakra. The fact Uchihas can circumvent this problem is proof that they have more chakra than normal people.

Uzumakis also have a lot of chakra, this is what allows Nagato to use the Rinnegan so efficiently (especially that he lived with those eyes his entire life, he ought to have mastered the technique).

Since Uzumakis descent from Senjus, it's safe to assume that the latter would also be able to handle the Sharingan / Rinnegan, thus, by extension, Senju also have good chakra reserves.

This is the whole reason why Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body rather than just transplanting the eyes on himself. Only a Uchiha body can make full use of them, with Senju & their relatives being able to at least handle them.

I can't explain this to you better, I mean I feel dumb having to explain this to you of all people. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Hope you have understood how the whole thing works now.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Your evidence didn't counter it. The manga makes it implicit by the examples that were shown to you. You chose to misunderstand those examples on purpose just to create a discussion.

But if you want a very simple fact, take the Sharingan for example. Uchihas can use it regularly during a fight without running out of chakra, for as long as it's not a mangekyo Sharingan. Yet, when it's someone else using those eyes (Kakashi, Danzo), they're counting their chakra reserves on their fingers, and they keep the eyes hidden during normal situations partly because the Sharingan uses a lot of chakra. The fact Uchihas can circumvent this problem is proof that they have more chakra than normal people.

Uzumakis also have a lot of chakra, this is what allows Nagato to use the Rinnegan so efficiently (especially that he lived with those eyes his entire life, he ought to have mastered the technique).

Since Uzumakis descent from Senjus, it's safe to assume that the latter would also be able to handle the Sharingan / Rinnegan, thus, by extension, Senju also have good chakra reserves.

This is the whole reason why Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body rather than just transplanting the eyes on himself. Only a Uchiha body can make full use of them, with Senju & their relatives being able to at least handle them.

I can't explain this to you better, I mean I feel dumb having to explain this to you of all people. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Hope you have understood how the whole thing works now.

I know what you're saying, but the counter was related to relativity.

For example, let's take in account two energy types: A truck full of diesel, and a little battery of uranium.

If we had to compare both in volume, we could say a truck with diesel is maybe 200 or 300 times bigger than the battery of uranium because it has tremendous reserves of energy, just like Naruto, enough to feed a gas station for maybe 2 or three days.

But, does this mean the truck has more duration than the battery of uranium? That battery, even with way smaller reserves of energy, can use incredibly small amounts to feed entire cities with electrical energy, it's a nuclear technology with high power per cell, just like the Uchiha's chakra. It could be used for years.

So, reserves are one thing, quality are other thing. Size doesn't matters.

The fact remains, Uchiha chakra is from the highest quality, you can't infere an Uchiha has more chakra than Naruto just because they can keep using chakra longer in battle... their high quality chakra makes them being able to use less quantity of chakra to reach the same effect. All is reduced to chakra control and experience, training, they become more and more efficient in the use of their sharingan.

And reserves come from both physical and spiritual energy, Uchiha don't have as much physical as spiritual energy, I can't understand how can you keep arguing against it. This topic is full of proof about that scheme.

I did not manipulate the information here, I stated what is already inside the manga.

 

[osba]

Your evidence didn't counter it. The manga makes it implicit by the examples that were shown to you. You chose to misunderstand those examples on purpose just to create a discussion.

But if you want a very simple fact, take the Sharingan for example. Uchihas can use it regularly during a fight without running out of chakra, for as long as it's not a mangekyo Sharingan. Yet, when it's someone else using those eyes (Kakashi, Danzo), they're counting their chakra reserves on their fingers, and they keep the eyes hidden during normal situations partly because the Sharingan uses a lot of chakra. The fact Uchihas can circumvent this problem is proof that they have more chakra than normal people.

Uzumakis also have a lot of chakra, this is what allows Nagato to use the Rinnegan so efficiently (especially that he lived with those eyes his entire life, he ought to have mastered the technique).

Since Uzumakis descent from Senjus, it's safe to assume that the latter would also be able to handle the Sharingan / Rinnegan, thus, by extension, Senju also have good chakra reserves.

This is the whole reason why Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body rather than just transplanting the eyes on himself. Only a Uchiha body can make full use of them, with Senju & their relatives being able to at least handle them.

I can't explain this to you better, I mean I feel dumb having to explain this to you of all people. It's as obvious as the sky being blue. Hope you have understood how the whole thing works now.

this
BUT i do believe that it has to do with the nature of one's chakras (uchiha's would have a good connection to the sharingan, a uzumaki for example does not and thus needs to use more chakra to controll it)
that been said, i believe that it is also up to the skill of the user.. look at sakura for your example.. she has small chakra reserves yet she is verry good at chakra control.. or naruto more recently.. i bet he could use the mangekyo sharingan to the same extend or even further than most pure blood sharingan users could.

 

[Mr Hiru]

this
BUT i do believe that it has to do with the nature of one's chakras (uchiha's would have a good connection to the sharingan, a uzumaki for example does not and thus needs to use more chakra to controll it)
that been said, i believe that it is also up to the skill of the user.. look at sakura for your example.. she has small chakra reserves yet she is verry good at chakra control.. or naruto more recently.. i bet he could use the mangekyo sharingan to the same extend or even further than most pure blood sharingan users could.

The main reason of why I don't agree is what I said in the previous post. You guys forgot the basis about how chakra is formed and what's the difference between Uchiha's chakra and average shinobi's chakra.

I reached a conclusion based on constructive knowledge, taking in account all the needed variables and events. I won't put all images I already put on the thread, now it's your job to re-read that.

a) yin unit + yang unit = chakra unit

• Manga fact, part 1 in the tree climbing training, it was stated by Kakashi

b) 2 yin unit + 2 yang unit = 2 chakra unit

• Logic based on aritmetic from a)
• Support: This is the reason of why Naruto could execute more rasengan than Sasuke could with his Chidori in part 1

c) 2 yin unit + 1 yang unit = high quality chakra unit

• Manga fact. In the "A Shocking Forbidden Technique" (Ch. 510 I believe) it is stated that the son who inherited the eyes also had Spiritual Energy, High Quality Chakra, related to the Yin Energy. This forms only 1 chakra unit (of high quality) and not two because of the fact explained in a), you only have 1 yang unit to mold chakra
• Support: This is the reason of why Sasuke's Chidori won against Naruto's Rasengan in the valley of the end

d) Naruto wields far more potential than Sasuke for developing yin and yang energy reserves

• Manga fact, part 1 in the tree climbing training, it was also stated by Kakashi

Short terms conclusions:

• Both Naruto and Sasuke have developed Yin and Yang Energy with training in these last ~3 years.
• Sasuke's Yin Energy went far enough to awake the Mangekyo Sharingan, his Yin Energy Reserves are way more powerful than Naruto's, and thus his chakra is still more powerful than Naruto's (base Naruto).
• Naruto's Yang Energy developed way better than Sasuke's, so Naruto helds way more chakra than Sasuke in the current Arc (I'm not considering Kurama in this conclusion).
• Sasuke still don't have as much stamina as Naruto, since there is a direct relationship between Chakra reserves and Stamina.

I can keep going on if you still don't get it.

 

[Armathyx]

I know what you're saying, but the counter was related to relativity.

For example, let's take in account two energy types: A truck full of diesel, and a little battery of uranium.

If we had to compare both in volume, we could say a truck with diesel is maybe 200 or 300 times bigger than the battery of uranium because it has tremendous reserves of energy, just like Naruto, enough to feed a gas station for maybe 2 or three days.

But, does this mean the truck has more duration than the battery of uranium? That battery, even with way smaller reserves of energy, can use incredibly small amounts to feed entire cities with electrical energy, it's a nuclear technology with high power per cell, just like the Uchiha's chakra. It could be used for years.

So, reserves are one thing, quality are other thing. Size doesn't matters.

The fact remains, Uchiha chakra is from the highest quality, you can't infere an Uchiha has more chakra than Naruto just because they can keep using chakra longer in battle... their high quality chakra makes them being able to use less quantity of chakra to reach the same effect. All is reduced to chakra control and experience, training, they become more and more efficient in the use of their sharingan.

And reserves come from both physical and spiritual energy, Uchiha don't have as much physical as spiritual energy, I can't understand how can you keep arguing against it. This topic is full of proof about that scheme.

I did not manipulate the information here, I stated what is already inside the manga.

But your metaphor has a flaw.

The battery (diesel truck / uranium battery) isn't the type of chakra. The battery is the person, the body that contains it.

The problem of "volume" is irrelevant here. All shinobi are naturally human-sized.

Some characters have a better body that can contain more chakra, others not. There's no such thing as "better quality chakra", or at least it's never been stated in the manga. You can see this in the way the characters comment about it during the battles (see the examples of other people in this thread) "hey, that guy has a tremendous amount of chakra!", they never say "hey that chakra is of such great quality!"

Now that I think of it, even in your metaphor, it's not a question of quality of energy, but again, amount of energy. The energy contained in the uranium battery isn't of better quality. It's a larger amount of energy compressed into a smaller container. That's basic science. Uranium is a very dense atom. If you were to compress the atoms of diesel oil into being as dense as Uranium, you'd get the same results (it wouldn't be diesel anymore).

Back to the manga... it simply means some people just have more chakra compressed into them than others, in other words, bigger reserves.

A Uchiha isn't using the Sharingan better because his chakra is "better", it's because he's got a higher amount of chakra stored up, it's that simple. Kakashi runs out of chakra in just a couple kamuis. Obito can spam it all day. Sure, Obito wastes less chakra in the process because he's used to it, but if it were the only reason then it wouldn't be enough for them to have such a big difference. Kakashi is a very skilled ninja, after all, he's no beginner.

I know that you are not manipulating information, you're simply misunderstanding it.

 

[Mr Hiru]

But your metaphor has a flaw.

The battery (diesel truck / uranium battery) isn't the type of chakra. The battery is the person, the body that contains it.

The problem of "volume" is irrelevant here. All shinobi are naturally human-sized.

As long as you were able to understand the meaning of the metaphor, it doesn't matter if I talk about the battery or the uranium itself. That's just a trivial mistake, the interpretation is what matters, and it seems you got it right.

The problem I see, is that you were not able to interpret the volume as well, since I was not talking about volume as it is, but as the reserves of both Yin and Yang Energy.

It was a full metaphor.

Some characters have a better body that can contain more chakra, others not. There's no such thing as "better quality chakra", or at least it's never been stated in the manga. You can see this in the way the characters comment about it during the battles (see the examples of other people in this thread) "hey, that guy has a tremendous amount of chakra!", they never say "hey that chakra is of such great quality!"

Now that I think of it, even in your metaphor, it's not a question of quality of energy, but again, amount of energy. The energy contained in the uranium battery isn't of better quality. It's a larger amount of energy compressed into a smaller container. That's basic science. Uranium is a very dense atom. If you were to compress the atoms of diesel oil into being as dense as Uranium, you'd get the same results (it wouldn't be diesel anymore).

Back to the manga... it simply means some people just have more chakra compressed into them than others, in other words, bigger reserves.

A Uchiha isn't using the Sharingan better because his chakra is "better", it's because he's got a higher amount of chakra stored up, it's that simple. Kakashi runs out of chakra in just a couple kamuis. Obito can spam it all day. Sure, Obito wastes less chakra in the process because he's used to it, but if it were the only reason then it wouldn't be enough for them to have such a big difference. Kakashi is a very skilled ninja, after all, he's no beginner.

I know that you are not manipulating information, you're simply misunderstanding it.

It seems I'll have to put the manga page after all. I asked you to read the topic but apparently you did not :/.

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I ask again... who is misunderstanding the basis of chakra? If my words couldn't convince you, at least look at the images. It was stated that the Uchiha wielded powerful chakra. What's powerful? Is it quality? Or quantity? It's not quantity, my second image tells that defines quantity, and that's not just yin energy, it's both spiritual and physical energy. Please, don't make me repeat. Read thoughoutly and then give it a thought.

 

[Armathyx]

As long as you were able to understand the meaning of the metaphor, it doesn't matter if I talk about the battery or the uranium itself. That's just a trivial mistake, the interpretation is what matters, and it seems you got it right.

The problem I see, is that you were not able to interpret the volume as well, since I was not talking about volume as it is, but as the reserves of both Yin and Yang Energy.

It was a full metaphor.



It seems I'll have to put the manga page after all. I asked you to read the topic but apparently you did not :/.

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.

I ask again... who is misunderstanding the basis of chakra? If my words couldn't convince you, at least look at the images. It was stated that the Uchiha wielded powerful chakra. What's powerful? Is it quality? Or quantity? It's not quantity, my second image tells that defines quantity, and that's not just yin energy, it's both spiritual and physical energy. Please, don't make me repeat. Read thoughoutly and then give it a thought.

Hirudora, I read these links of yours before and I assure you they are arguments against your idea. It's not like I'm trying to make an idiot of you.

Of course powerful implies a crap ton of chakra. Chakra is raw energy. There's two criteria:

- How much chakra you have
- How efficiently you use it

You're making a huge confusion between efficiency and quality. Chakra is this manga's term for energy, just like Kiai was its term in Dragonball, and there's no such thing as "good" and "bad" energy. There's either a lot of it, or there isn't.

Look at the difference between Kaguya and Hagoromo (So6P). They both had tremendous amounts of chakra, except that Kaguya supposedly didn't invent jutsu to use it efficiently. It's not that Hagoromo had "better quality chakra", it's that he knew what to do with it.

Again, instead of losing yourself in these explanations by Tobi that you're insisting on misunderstanding, why not look at what happens during the manga? Compare non-Uchiha Sharingan users to actual Uchihas. Look at how Nagato is able to control the Rinnegan without being a Uchiha.

And of course it matters how you explain your metaphor because if you are basing your argument on a false idea then your argument is also false.

Look, again, this is like trying to explain to you that the sun is yellow. If for you efficience is quality then go ahead and think that way. I frankly don't understand why you created this thread. The whole idea is irrelevant, it's already clear in the manga that these clans have huge amounts of chakra.

 

[Chatte]

Wow, this still goes on?...

 

[Mr Hiru]

Hirudora, I read these links of yours before and I assure you they are arguments against your idea. It's not like I'm trying to make an idiot of you.

Of course powerful implies a crap ton of chakra. Chakra is raw energy. There's two criteria:

- How much chakra you have
- How efficiently you use it

You're making a huge confusion between efficiency and quality. Chakra is this manga's term for energy, just like Kiai was its term in Dragonball, and there's no such thing as "good" and "bad" energy. There's either a lot of it, or there isn't.

Look at the difference between Kaguya and Hagoromo (So6P). They both had tremendous amounts of chakra, except that Kaguya supposedly didn't invent jutsu to use it efficiently. It's not that Hagoromo had "better quality chakra", it's that he knew what to do with it.

Again, instead of losing yourself in these explanations by Tobi that you're insisting on misunderstanding, why not look at what happens during the manga? Compare non-Uchiha Sharingan users to actual Uchihas. Look at how Nagato is able to control the Rinnegan without being a Uchiha.

And of course it matters how you explain your metaphor because if you are basing your argument on a false idea then your argument is also false.

Look, again, this is like trying to explain to you that the sun is yellow. If for you efficience is quality then go ahead and think that way. I frankly don't understand why you created this thread. The whole idea is irrelevant, it's already clear in the manga that these clans have huge amounts of chakra.

No, I did not say efficiency equals quality; that's a misunderstanding from your part. What I said is that there is a function but not a relationship. High quality chakra can be used in a more efficient way than normal chakra, but this will depend of course on how well is the user's chakra control (this last part is what you state and for me makes sense). But you telling that quantity = quality is something I can't understand, and the support for me in this breach is simple: The second image I posted. Chakra is formed with both Spiritual and Physical Energy.

A lot of people flatly ignore this fact and in its place tells Kishimoto is making asspulls or creating chakra from nowhere just due of plot, and this is not true at all. Almost all phenomena included in Narutoverse is fully explained.

 

[Chatte]

In this case, a simple analogy to understand the whole concept would be the case of athletics. To be more exact, resistance vs. speed.
Let's say that the Yin ones are the speedy ones and the Yang ones are the resistant ones.

As we all know, the speedy ones can run fast over a certain amount of km. But they won't have the resistance to run a larger amount of km. They are very powerful on short km, taking the resistant ones. Those are the Uchihas.
However, unlike the resistant ones, they can't last longer while running. Their body fails them quickly, even though they're faster on short amount of km. But the resistant ones while not as fast, they last longer in the running process. Those are the Senjus, so to speak.
Now in terms of what manga has shown us, a perfect shinobi would be the one who has both, resistance and speed. Those are the Uzumakis. They have great vitality and powerful chakra. We've seen their vitality, as for powerful chakra, let's remember that the Jinchuurikis of Kyuubi were all Uzumaki. They have the powerful chakra to suppress a Bijuu.

This principle is somewhat applied back in Part 1 when the whole deal with chakra is explained.
For example, Sakura is the speedy one. She got the climbing done quite fast, whereas Sasuke and Naruto [though more Naruto than Sasuke], were more resistant, but it took them long enough to do the proper climbing.

As the series goes on, all of them work on their specific things in order to become that mix of both resistance and speed. And this is where I turn at the example from the Heaven and Earth comparison.
Sasuke had them both, Naruto lacked the Heaven [intelligence] while Sakura lacked the Earth [physical strength].
Now at the end of the series, we see them all filling those gaps, the only difference is each of them went on a specific style. But chakra reserves are no problem as their worked on improving that part.

This whole chakra reserves is the energy one has as a human. It's like when you first start running, because of lack of exercise, you get tired really quickly. But, with time and practice, you can last longer. Same with chakra reserves.
Hope people got the analogy, as I am quite bad at explaining things.

 

[Armathyx]

No, I did not say efficiency equals quality; that's a misunderstanding from your part. What I said is that there is a function but not a relationship. High quality chakra can be used in a more efficient way than normal chakra, but this will depend of course on how well is the user's chakra control (this last part is what you state and for me makes sense). But you telling that quantity = quality is something I can't understand, and the support for me in this breach is simple: The second image I posted. Chakra is formed with both Spiritual and Physical Energy.

A lot of people flatly ignore this fact and in its place tells Kishimoto is making asspulls or creating chakra from nowhere just due of plot, and this is not true at all. Almost all phenomena included in Narutoverse is fully explained.

I never said that quantity = quality. If you want to start playing that game with me, you know I don't have a tolerance for people who make me say things I didn't.

I'm saying the "quality" factor is completely out of the equation here, which it is. I made that very clear.

The two types of chakra are Yin and Yang, creative and destructive. The easiest moment to understand this is early on in the manga when Naruto is switching between his blue chakra and Kurama's red chakra. There's not one that is better than the other. Kurama simply has tons more of it. The fact he can keep Kurama under control in KM while using a 50/50 chakra exchange proves that both energies are the same - the difference is that Naruto can't go on forever, he'd run out of chakra faster than Kurama.

And don't tell me that almost everything is fully explained. It's fully explained by the fans who fill in the gaps for Kishimoto. There is no such thing as perfection in a story that is severely bound by plot. You cannot possiblity justify Sasuke summoning Manda, of all summons, when he can't even get up on his feet.

 

[Armathyx]

No, I did not say efficiency equals quality; that's a misunderstanding from your part. What I said is that there is a function but not a relationship. High quality chakra can be used in a more efficient way than normal chakra, but this will depend of course on how well is the user's chakra control (this last part is what you state and for me makes sense). But you telling that quantity = quality is something I can't understand, and the support for me in this breach is simple: The second image I posted. Chakra is formed with both Spiritual and Physical Energy.

A lot of people flatly ignore this fact and in its place tells Kishimoto is making asspulls or creating chakra from nowhere just due of plot, and this is not true at all. Almost all phenomena included in Narutoverse is fully explained.

I never said that quantity = quality. If you want to start playing that game with me, you know I don't have a tolerance for people who make me say things I didn't.

I'm saying the "quality" factor is completely out of the equation here, which it is. I made that very clear.

The two types of chakra are Yin and Yang, creative and destructive. The easiest moment to understand this is early on in the manga when Naruto is switching between his blue chakra and Kurama's red chakra. There's not one that is better than the other. Kurama simply has tons more of it. The fact he can keep Kurama under control in KM while using a 50/50 chakra exchange proves that both energies are the same - the difference is that Naruto can't go on forever, he'd run out of chakra faster than Kurama.

And don't tell me that almost everything is fully explained. It's fully explained by the fans who fill in the gaps for Kishimoto. There is no such thing as perfection in a story that is severely bound by plot. You cannot possiblity justify Sasuke summoning Manda, of all summons, when he can't even get up on his feet.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I never said that quantity = quality. If you want to start playing that game with me, you know I don't have a tolerance for people who make me say things I didn't.

I'm saying the "quality" factor is completely out of the equation here, which it is. I made that very clear.

The two types of chakra are Yin and Yang, creative and destructive. The easiest moment to understand this is early on in the manga when Naruto is switching between his blue chakra and Kurama's red chakra. There's not one that is better than the other. Kurama simply has tons more of it. The fact he can keep Kurama under control in KM while using a 50/50 chakra exchange proves that both energies are the same - the difference is that Naruto can't go on forever, he'd run out of chakra faster than Kurama.

And don't tell me that almost everything is fully explained. It's fully explained by the fans who fill in the gaps for Kishimoto. There is no such thing as perfection in a story that is severely bound by plot. You cannot possiblity justify Sasuke summoning Manda, of all summons, when he can't even get up on his feet.

If that's so, I'll play your game, since I can't also stand people who is not able to recollect information correctly. I have patience, but it has limits too.

There's no such thing as "better quality chakra", or at least it's never been stated in the manga

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I hope this answer the quality / power factor in chakra exist in the manga, and it is relevant. So, for the green colored part, you can't dare to ignore it. While you more try to evade these things, the more I will argue.

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For the red colored part, I agree but the part about blue chakra, because Naruto's chakra is yellow. But that's just a detail, since you're right about anime.

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For the orange colored part... sigh.

Back to the manga... it simply means some people just have more chakra compressed into them than others, in other words, bigger reserves.

Image #2. That's all I have to say. In practical terms, lot of reserves and high quality chakra seems to be the same, but conceptually it is not. For instance, do you truly believe Sasuke can awake Sage Mode? If he have big chakra reserves (BOTH yin and yang energies) then theoretically he should be able to awake Sage Mode... if Powerful Chakra is Compressed Chakra, he should be able, and moreover... he has an excellent chakra control. He mets all the requirements... But NOT. He only has big yin Energy, not yin and yang.

Image #2 explains pretty well that both Stamina and Chakra is formed with the combination of Yin and Yang Energy. Why did Sasuke got tired some minutes after his arrival when he was fighting Obito along with Naruto? Naruto has been more days than Sasuke, but Naruto is still there...

If what you said were true, then Sasuke shouldn't be tired yet. Two more days should pass before he get the same state of stress than Naruto's body.

I can only conclude about this part, that I'm being aware of what manga told until know.

Since Uzumakis descent from Senjus, it's safe to assume that the latter would also be able to handle the Sharingan / Rinnegan, thus, by extension, Senju also have good chakra reserves.

Only the Elder Son inherited the eyes, and henceforth the Uchiha Clan did. Try to remember, Madara had to be in the end of his lifespan to awake the Rinnegan, he didn't even have inmediate control over Hashirama's Cells that were harvested with the Mazou as catalyst. Your statement is clearly farfetched. I believe you're right about the Uzumaki being able to handle the Rinnegan, but Sharingan? Come on... that would be like saying that the Sage is Uzumaki... Lol.

Now theoretically... Senju have big chakra reserves. Don't know what you're on about, Hirudora, everyone knows this.

I was not the one who made a fan interpretation, and I opened this discussion thread because manga gives enough panel to counter that. Chakra comes from Yin and Yang Energy, this is explicitely stated. What people are saying COULD only be talking about Hashirama Senju, JUST BECAUSE he was able to attain Sage Mode. Where is your proof of other Senju having Sage Mode so you can infere every Senju have big chakra reserves? I searched for long time, and I didn't find any clue. I only found about them having great lifeforce and physical energy by inheritance (the basis of the Yang).

...It seems I'm forced to repeat once and once again that Yin + Yang = Chakra. The entire manga has been moving based on this simple principle.

 

[Armathyx]

If that's so, I'll play your game, since I can't also stand people who is not able to recollect information correctly. I have patience, but it has limits too.

You must be registered for see links

I hope this answer the quality / power factor in chakra exist in the manga, and it is relevant. So, for the green colored part, you can't dare to ignore it. While you more try to evade these things, the more I will argue.

---

Are you joking me? I've just ****ing answered this. "Powerful chakra" = tons of chakra.

Like, seriously, do you want to have a discussion about this, or is this a troll thread like SDO's typical crap? You are losing the respect I have to you with this nonsense. Especially with that ad hominem you're trying to slide in with innuendos about me "evading" answers.

Ok, tell you what, I'm going to pretend you're 6 years old here. Let's try the simple approach.

Have you ever heard the idea that money is power?

Bill Gates is a powerful man. Is it because his money is strong? No. It's because he's got tons of it. Common sense. Capisce?