SM vs CM

[xxSAGExx]

Once again, given is used in the sense of not original power. kakashi was confirmed to have a 1000 jutsu's and able to use, water, fire, earth and lightning. What you are talking about is the mixture of the techniques together to make another element or style. Thats called a toutai or something. Don't get that confused with using elements separately like kakashi.

No that was learning to use 1 element. When Kakashi trained Naruto he said it takes many years to learn an element and had Naruto train with clones to lessen the time needed. Naruto trained with 200 clones for a few weeks, that's 200 days worth of training each day.

Kakashi was only shown to use all of those jutsus after he uncovered the Sharingan, the only elements he used with it covered was earth and he stated lightning was his. If Kakashi had all of those elements then he would be able to use those jutsus without the Sharingan by already knowing how to perform them yet he doesn't. Mei has water, fire and earth elements and Oonoki have earth, wind and fire. Kakashi was said to copy 1000 jutsus not learn or created them.

 

[God of TryHards]

Doesn't matter, only to fanboys does it matter. Both modes take skill to learn. Sasuke could potentially have died when given the cursed seal lvl 2. Naruto could have turned to stone when first learning SM. Something given to them would require no effort on their part to learn/controll it.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

No that was learning to use 1 element. When Kakashi trained Naruto he said it takes many years to learn an element and had Naruto train with clones to lessen the time needed. Naruto trained with 200 clones for a few weeks, that's 200 days worth of training each day.

Kakashi was only shown to use all of those jutsus after he uncovered the Sharingan, the only elements he used with it covered was earth and he stated lightning was his. If Kakashi had all of those elements then he would be able to use those jutsus without the Sharingan by already knowing how to perform them yet he doesn't. Mei has water, fire and earth elements and Oonoki have earth, wind and fire. Kakashi was said to copy 1000 jutsus not learn or created them.

Wrong because it took sasuke only days to weeks to learn lightning. He can still use those elements. Just not mix them together like ohnoki or mizukage. Kakashi uses his eye so he can stay ahead in battle against his opponent. He most likely does know all those jutsu's. Sharingan just makes it easier to use them, since he can time his opponent and even read their movements. Sasuke technically learned fire and lightning in days/weeks.

 

[Seventh Sama]

You're right that is his own ability. But the act of using an external power is what I'm getting at. That's why I said SM wasn't original.

Going by your logic, Chakra is a borrowed power. since it came from Shinju Tree.....

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Going by your logic, Chakra is a borrowed power. since it came from Shinju Tree.....

Only to the first person it was given to. If you were born with it. It is apart of you originality.

 

[General Lex]

So because a sage mode pulls energy in that is not naturally theirs, it is an external/ given power? To rephrase the question: original power is self created not reliant on external factors such as drawing in energy?

 

[Seventh Sama]

Only to the first person it was given to. If you were born with it. It is apart of you originality.

you need to have massive chakra to invoke natural energy and you need to train for it. you act like anyone could just use SM since you can "borrow it" :|

 

[Johndoesknowall]

So because a sage mode pulls energy in that is not naturally theirs, it is an external/ given power? To rephrase the question: original power is self created not reliant on external factors such as drawing in energy?

You have it wrong. It's just the use of external power that makes SM a given (not original) power.

 

[-Sky-]

Curse Seal was given, but Sasuke had to struggle greatly to use it. Sage Mode was 100% earned.

The SM user has to sit still and absorb nature energy, nature energy doesn't just come to the one trying to absorb it. Along with that, they have to balance the chakra within themselves. They're not just 'given' nature energy.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Curse Seal was given, but Sasuke had to struggle greatly to use it. Sage Mode was 100% earned.

The SM user has to sit still and absorb nature energy, nature energy doesn't just come to the one trying to absorb it. Along with that, they have to balance the chakra within themselves. They're not just 'given' nature energy.

The point on the thread once again is that SM is not an original power.

"Given" is used in the sense of not original. Not just handed to someone.

 

[General Lex]

You have it wrong. It's just the use of external power that makes SM a given (not original) power.

Am I? Converting energy is always dependent on external factors. To nitpick and single out sm as an external power erroneous. The user absorbs the energy (external as you claim) and mixes it with the chakra they already have (internal) creating a new power that relies on both. The user converted two sources of energy into a different form of energy therefore technically making it an "original power."

One other thing. All energy has to come from somewhere. It can naturally create itself therefore the claim that any form of energy is "original" is an invalid claim. Even the internal energy I just described has its origins for external forces such as the body converting food into energy. Therefore all power is technically given as you claim.

 

[-Sky-]

The point on the thread once again is that SM is not an original power.

"Given" is used in the sense of not original. Not just handed to someone.

Given does not mean 'not original.' Not in the slightest.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Am I? Converting energy is always dependent on external factors. To nitpick and single out sm as an external power erroneous. The user absorbs the energy (external as you claim) and mixes it with the chakra they already have (internal) creating a new power that relies on both. The user converted two sources of energy into a different form of energy therefore technically making it an "original power."

One other thing. All energy has to come from somewhere. It can naturally create itself therefore the claim that any form of energy is "original" is an invalid claim. Even the internal energy I just described has its origins for external forces such as the body converting food into energy. Therefore all power is technically given as you claim.

@Bold: It does not become his original power. You can call it original power in a sense when it is mixed, but it still is not his original power.

Right but this is specifically talking about SM, original power or given power. In the anime we already have a sense of original power for a character. An external power used from this character means he is now using an given (not original) power.

You claim that all power is given which is correct. But once again we are slowly moving off subject. When the subject was About SM. In the anime we don't have to use real world logic. We can actually base things off of what we see and know from it. So technically that statement, even though true in the real world, doesn't necessarily apply to the narutoverse. So in a way you agreed with me, but only in the technical terms.

Given does not mean 'not original.' Not in the slightest.

I said given is used as (not original).

 

[-Sky-]

I said given is used as (not original).

Why? The definition of given is far from 'not original.' You're not going to get anything right if you're making up false definitions for words. (Just my 2 cents.)

 

[KingHashirama]

I know that it isn't borrowed, I even said the word you're looking for is borrowed. The Shinju is the source of all chakra, any and all chakra used is borrowed from the Shinju. Until the manga states otherwise, chakra comes directly from the Shinju.

Manga already stated it otherwise. Only Sage's mother got the chakra from the shinju. Everyone else got it through the teachings of Rikudou.

So no, chakra does not come from the Shinju. However, it's knowledge was gained from the Shinju.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Why? The definition of given is far from 'not original.' You're not going to get anything right if you're making up false definitions for words. (Just my 2 cents.)

The reason for given being used as not original is because when you are given something, usually it wasn't originally yours to begin with anyway. ( Just my 2 cents.)

 

[-Sky-]

The reason for given being used as not original is because when you are given something, usually it wasn't originally yours to begin with anyway. ( Just my 2 cents.)

Just because you have something that isn't original, doesn't mean it was given to you. Far from it.

 

[General Lex]

@Bold: It does not become his original power. You can call it original power in a sense when it is mixed, but it still is not his original power.

Right but this is specifically talking about SM, original power or given power. In the anime we already have a sense of original power for a character. An external power used from this character means he is now using an given (not original) power.

You claim that all power is given which is correct. But once again we are slowly moving off subject. When the subject was About SM. In the anime we don't have to use real world logic. We can actually base things off of what we see and know from it. So technically that statement, even though true in the real world, doesn't necessarily apply to the narutoverse. So in a way you agreed with me, but only in the technical terms.




I said given is used as (not original).

It is his original power when he uses it regardless of how he acquired it as long as he converts it and changes it's form using his "original power". You"re claiming its origins stems from nature not the person which is partially true. Nature plays a role but once the energy is mixed it becomes a new power therefore it is original. You say that it's given because it does not naturally exist in the person.

Maybe I'm confused. Are you trying to say sage mode is not a natural power meaning it cannot be created internally without external forces? If so saying it's given may mislead everyone. Sage mode is created not given.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Just because you have something that isn't original, doesn't mean it was given to you. Far from it.

Your confusing right now. But you get my gist.

It is his original power when he uses it regardless of how he acquired it as long as he converts it and changes it's form using his "original power". You"re claiming its origins stems from nature not the person which is partially true. Nature plays a role but once the energy is mixed it becomes a new power therefore it is original. You say that it's given because it does not naturally exist in the person.

Maybe I'm confused. Are you trying to say sage mode is not a natural power meaning it cannot be created internally without external forces? If so saying it's given may mislead everyone. Sage mode is created not given.

Yes, I'm saying SM is not an original power of the user. I used "given" and I guess that confused some people. But I explained that given just was used as not original.

 

[esenn1]

1.not any can absorb chakra...2. for sage mode need big chakra pool/ 3. user mix own chakra with natural energy.

What the hell is going on here? First P3IN and now you? why all this time I had thought that you and P3IN are man not girl?O_O