SM vs CM

[Johndoesknowall]

A given power is something that does not have to be trained for.
- Does Sennin Mōdo require training? Yes.
- Does Curse Mark require training? No.

A given power is something that is not originally you power. Whether given, forced, etc. Even if trained for it. If it requires the use of external/given powers than it is not originally your power.

Well then that is just a play on words. Your thread no longer makes any sense. How else am I supposed to take the meaning of given which is defined as someone handing something to someone else.

So nvm SM is not given in any way. You should phrase your question differently: Is SM and CM both powers from external sources then obviously the answers is yes. Is SM a given power no not at all. You take the energy from nature, nature does not give it to you, where as Oro has to give you the CS. Once a user obtains natural energy he/she has to rely on their own chakra, their own power, their own training to use the Natural Energy and eventually get SM.

BTW please provide me with the original definition of given that you are talking about.

The basic idea was that it was not an original power, and I've said that many times. I've said that it requires an external power source, so it is not their original power. I understand how the word given can be confused but if you read through you would still see the point I'm making.

 

[Bieber]

A given power is something that is not originally you power. Whether given, forced, etc. Even if trained for it. If it requires the use of external/given powers than it is not originally your power.

Natural energy is not given to Sennin Mōdo users. They have to stay perfectly still to absorb it, which did in fact require training. You're getting given and borrowed mixed up, which it still isn't a borrowed power either. Anything that requires training, especially Sennin Mōdo, it is not a given nor borrowed power.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Natural energy is not given to Sennin Mōdo users. They have to stay perfectly still to absorb it, which did in fact require training.

Even if they trained for it, the power they are absorbing and soon to be using is not theirs. SM is not their original power.

 

[Bieber]

Even if they trained for it, the power they are absorbing and soon to be using is not theirs. SM is not their original power.

You're getting given and borrowed mixed up, which it still isn't a borrowed power either. Anything that requires training, especially Sennin Mōdo, it is not a given nor borrowed power. A given power is Kakashi's sharingan or Sasuke's Curse Mark. A borrowed power is Naruto, along with the Shinobi Alliance, using Kurama's chakra.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

You're getting given and borrowed mixed up, which it still isn't a borrowed power either. Anything that requires training, especially Sennin Mōdo, it is not a given nor borrowed power. A given power is Kakashi's sharingan or Sasuke's Curse Mark. A borrowed power is Naruto, along with the Shinobi Alliance, using Kurama's chakra.

Like I said "Given" isn't just used as handed to someone, it's also used as not original

 

[KingHashirama]

I don't think you read my thread. Please read it if you think I mean two people fighting against each other in these modes

i mean in regards to which is stronger lol

 

[Bieber]

Like I said "Given" isn't just used as handed to someone, it's also used as not original

The word you're looking for is borrowed. Sennin Mōdo users borrow natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. They aren't given natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. I understand that Sennin Mōdo is not the users original power nor have I ever disagreed with that. Chakra itself is a borrowed power, not a given one. [

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] "However the Shinju, hell-bent on getting it's chakra back, went berserk."

 

[KingHashirama]

The word you're looking for is borrowed. Sennin Mōdo users borrow natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. They aren't given natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. I understand that Sennin Mōdo is not the users original power nor have I ever disagreed with that. Chakra itself is a borrowed power, not a given one. [

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] "However the Shinju, hell-bent on getting it's chakra back, went berserk."

They do not borrow it, they collect it.

Not all chakra is borrowed power, but the knowledge of chakra from Rikudou makes it Shinju's chakra.

 

[xxSAGExx]

Even if they trained for it, the power they are absorbing and soon to be using is not theirs. SM is not their original power.

As others said before, nature does not give Naruto anything, Naruto trained to take in the energy. Once Naruto take it in its his to use because it's his ability to use it. You said when a Sharingan copies a jutsu that it's the sharingans original power that does it yet fail to see that it's Naruto's own ability to use the natural energy. How is the Sharingan being able to copy ability not given power when it's it ability to copy jutsus but Naruto who has the ability to "take" natural energy and use it given? You kinda used failed logic there and going by your logic of how the Sharingan coping jutsus is not given power, SM is not given power

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Once again is SM given power: NO
is SM external power: YES

given and power from and external source are not the same thing.

Basic point of thread. SM is not an original power

i mean in regards to which is stronger lol

Off topic, but I see where you stand.

 

[Bieber]

They do not borrow it, they collect it.

Not all chakra is borrowed power, but the knowledge of chakra from Rikudou makes it Shinju's chakra.

I know that it isn't borrowed, I even said the word you're looking for is borrowed. The Shinju is the source of all chakra, any and all chakra used is borrowed from the Shinju. Until the manga states otherwise, chakra comes directly from the Shinju.

You're getting given and borrowed mixed up, which it still isn't a borrowed power either.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

The word you're looking for is borrowed. Sennin Mōdo users borrow natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. They aren't given natural energy to enter Sennin Mōdo. I understand that Sennin Mōdo is not the users original power nor have I ever disagreed with that. Chakra itself is a borrowed power, not a given one. [

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] "However the Shinju, hell-bent on getting it's chakra back, went berserk."

No, you misunderstood. Given was used in the sense of not original.

As others said before, nature does not give Naruto anything, Naruto trained to take in the energy. Once Naruto take it in its his to use because it's his ability to use it. You said when a Sharingan copies a jutsu that it's the sharingans original power that does it yet fail to see that it's Naruto's own ability to use the natural energy. How is the Sharingan being able to copy ability not given power when it's it ability to copy jutsus but Naruto who has the ability to "take" natural energy and use it given? You kinda used failed logic there and going by your logic of how the Sharingan coping jutsus is not given power, SM is not given power

It's not about training to use the energy. Its about actually using energy. You even state it yourself that he's using the energy and we both know that, that energy is not originally his, even if he takes it in himself. Sharingan only uses the persons original energy to copy the techniques. it doesn't use any out side power to do this.

I don't see how my logic failed. When Naruto uses external power it is not originally his power.

 

[xxSAGExx]

No, you misunderstood. Given was used in the sense of not original.



It's not about training to use the energy. Its about actually using energy. You even state it yourself that he's using the energy and we both know that, that energy is not originally his, even if he takes it in himself. Sharingan only uses the persons original energy to copy the techniques. it doesn't use any out side power to do this.

I don't see how my logic failed. When Naruto uses external power it is not originally his power.

To copy means it's not theirs. In Part 1 Guy even said that lightning blade was the only jutsu in Kakashi arsenal that was originally his own jutsu. Copying other jutsu is using external source, do by you logic they're given those jutsus since they used their ability to gain power from an external source. When you breathe in air from outside are you given oxygen or taking it? Nothing is forcing the oxygen into you, you are taking it. It an external source but not given to us unless hooked up to a machine.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

To copy means it's not theirs. In Part 1 Guy even said that lightning blade was the only jutsu in Kakashi arsenal that was originally his own jutsu. Copying other jutsu is using external source, do by you logic they're given those jutsus since they used their ability to gain power from an external source. When you breathe in air from outside are you given oxygen or taking it? Nothing is forcing the oxygen into you, you are taking it. It an external source but not given to us unless hooked up to a machine.

Kakashi's eye is a given power aswell. For it is not his original power. But in a general sense the sharingan only uses original power from the user. So all of the copied techniques that an original user of Sharingan has would be his own original power aswell.

 

[xxSAGExx]

Kakashi's eye is a given power aswell. For it is not his original power. But in a general sense the sharingan only uses original power from the user. So all of the copied techniques that an original user of Sharingan has would be his own original power aswell.

Naruto being able to absorb and use natural energy is his power so same thing

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Naruto being able to absorb and use natural energy is his power so same thing

You're right that is his own ability. But the act of using an external power is what I'm getting at. That's why I said SM wasn't original.

 

[Oblivionx]

i'm sick of this original power, borrowed power debate....! just let it go guys...!

 

[Johndoesknowall]

i'm sick of this original power, borrowed power debate....! just let it go guys...!

Well, someone has to get it right for it to stop. Until then you can just stay away from these threads.

 

[xxSAGExx]

You're right that is his own ability. But the act of using an external power is what I'm getting at. That's why I said SM wasn't original.

Kakashi was able to copy chakra element when he copied jutsus such as hidden mist or water clone. Only confirm chakra types Kakashi has are lightning and earth cause he didn't have to use the Sharingan to use them, Kakashi shown to use fire, earth, lightning, and water. He's not going to have all of these elements when he said it himself how most jounins have 2 elements and it takes many years to learn each element. The most elements we seen someone have was 3 elements from Mei and Oonoki.

Being able to copy the chakra type to use said jutsu is not using their own power since they can't use that jutsu without using the Sharingan. So this is why I use it as my example of how SM is not given but it external. It's the same logic, both use their ability and external sources for power

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Kakashi was able to copy chakra element when he copied jutsus such as hidden mist or water clone. Only confirm chakra types Kakashi has are lightning and earth cause he didn't have to use the Sharingan to use them, Kakashi shown to use fire, earth, lightning, and water. He's not going to have all of these elements when he said it himself how most jounins have 2 elements and it takes many years to learn each element. The most elements we seen someone have was 3 elements from Mei and Oonoki.

Being able to copy the chakra type to use said jutsu is not using their own power since they can't use that jutsu without using the Sharingan. So this is why I use it as my example of how SM is not given but it external. It's the same logic, both use their ability and external sources for power

Once again, given is used in the sense of not original power. kakashi was confirmed to have a 1000 jutsu's and able to use, water, fire, earth and lightning. What you are talking about is the mixture of the techniques together to make another element or style. Thats called a toutai or something. Don't get that confused with using elements separately like kakashi.

Also the user still only uses his or her chakra and molds it into the element if they can. If not then the jutsu won't work.