SM vs CM

[Aya San]

Good then you agree that when they are utilizing it whether it's when they are absorbing or after they're done that they are using an external power source/given powers.

No SM is not borrowed

 

[juzumaki]

Who the hell cares if a power is given, borrowed, stolen etc.

It doesn't matter, if a character has a power (Naruto, Kurama Sasuke, EMS Kakashi, Sharingan) It is there power, thats that.

all sauke fan boy care if it gven

 

[Johndoesknowall]

No SM is not borrowed

SM is a given power. It's from an external power source, not from the users original powers

all sauke fan boy care if it gven

I am a Sasuke fan and I find this true

 

[Aya San]

SM is a given power. It's from an external power source, not from the users original powers



I am a Sasuke fan and I find this true

It's not a given, no one gives him that power he gathers it himself

 

[Johndoesknowall]

It's not a given, no one gives him that power he gathers it himself

He gathers it himself but Nature gives him that power.

 

[Aya San]

He gathers it himself but Nature gives him that power.

It seems we can't agree and won't so I'm done here

 

[Johndoesknowall]

It seems we can't agree and won't so I'm done here

Well you can't convince everyone. Till next time.

 

[xxSAGExx]

Many in the base only base their logic and facts off of what others say without giving any thought to the subject at hand.

I believe most of you would say SM is an original power and CM is a power given(talking about Orochimaru's modified version of CM).

Well you would be right about CM but not SM, not entirely anyway. SM can be categorized as both original and given power based on the details of the topic. But it weighs more on the side of given power.

SM requires the ability to absorb chakra, anyone can learn how to absorb chakra, the problem is controlling it. Anyway the reason for it being put in both categories is because of it's requirements. You need to absorb natural energy and then use it.

Absorbing natural energy is the users original power, since anyone can do it under the right conditions. (toad oil, or natural ability)

Using the external energy gathered is what makes it a given power since you are using nature's energy and not your original strength. So if you had to decide whether it's given or not, you would have to say that SM is a given power.


So to clarify SM is the usage of an external use of power therefore it is a given power. The only original power you have related to the technique is the ability to absorb natural energy. All of the enhancements and improvements come from an outside source being given to you.

Also for those who might say, what was the point of this thread? It is to show that SM weighs more on the given power side same as CM and not original.

If you agree, good. If not then state why and back up your reasoning. For I will back up mines if not proved wrong.

Differences is that Naruto isn't "given" the natural energy, he actually trained to learn how to absorb it and trained how to balance it with his chakra. SM is the same as any jutsu you train to learn. EX: Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori, the information about how the jutsu is done wasn't Sasuke's, it was given to him and the effect was learning to use the jutsu. This is same for all jutsus that weren't created by a person. The information on how the jutsu is done is not yours so you're using external knowledge of how the jutsu is done and applying it to make it your own. Natural energy doesn't give Naruto the increase power, that's Senjutsu which is created by your chakra being balanced with Natural energy. Natural energy is like the external information a ninja gets from their teacher and apply it to gain their goal which is the jutsu.

You can't learn CM, you have to be given it which makes it given. SM is all training.

Yeah but as you said you train to control that natural energy the energy isn't just being put inside there body for free to use whenever they want. they "take" the energy and use it for them selves.

there is a diffrence and while its not completley there own power in narutos case where hes doing it all on his own without jugos cells implanted or having the toads attached to gather it for him it mostly is.

otherwise learning new jutsu from scrolls/copying with sharingan is also given power. since they didnt do it all for themselves .

Agree. The knowledge of how the jutsu is done is external since it's not the person's own. They apply that external knowledge to learn how to do the jutsu. Naruto using external energy is the same, he still trains how to absorb the energy and how to balance it with his own chakra. Nothing was given.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Differences is that Naruto isn't "given" the natural energy, he actually trained to learn how to absorb it and trained how to balance it with his chakra. SM is the same as any jutsu you train to learn. EX: Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori, the information about how the jutsu is done wasn't Sasuke's, it was given to him and the effect was learning to use the jutsu. This is same for all jutsus that weren't created by a person. The information on how the jutsu is done is not yours so you're using external knowledge of how the jutsu is done and applying it to make it your own. Natural energy doesn't give Naruto the increase power, that's Senjutsu which is created by your chakra being balanced with Natural energy. Natural energy is like the external information a ninja gets from their teacher and apply it to gain their goal which is the jutsu.

You can't learn CM, you have to be given it which makes it given. SM is all training.



Agree. The knowledge of how the jutsu is done is external since it's not the person's own. They apply that external knowledge to learn how to do the jutsu. Naruto using external energy is the same, he still trains how to absorb the energy and how to balance it with his own chakra. Nothing was given.

I was wondering when someone else was going to post. I though it would actually be something worthy proving wrong but it's not. But I'll still state why you're wrong.

Right Naruto isn't given natural energy, he absorbs it which is his original ability. But when he starts to utilize it and enhance and improve himself he is using a given power. EX: SM

When SM is used. It requires the use of Natural energy. Basically it requires the use of an external source of power that was not originally yours. You try to state the facts of training but I've already said that most of the time it's not about training.

Even if we put training into this subject he still needs to use external/given power to achieve SM.

@Bold Natural energy is an energy by itself and not just some external information, otherwise why would it turn a person to stone if not controlled properly. Natural energy is the atmosphere and mother earths power. When used with your own technique you are using a given power since it is not yours originally.

Even if you train using an external/given power it is still a external/given power.

Natural energy gives you power once it is controlled and mixed.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

What is this post trying to point out exactly? SM vs CM = In your opinion?

If you want people to be proven wrong you have to bring in scans to prove your point.

Example:

An example would be when Base Naruto had no such strength feat to lift up Giant boulders [

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] but as soon has he gathered natural energy he was able to perform this strength feat. [

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] This implies that natural energy is what enables the character to get such a feat.

 

[Multiply]

So essentially you're trying to downplay SM, compared to CM?

 

[Johndoesknowall]

What is this post trying to point out exactly? SM vs CM = In your opinion?

If you want people to be proven wrong you have to bring in scans to prove your point.

Example:

An example would be when Base Naruto had no such strength feat to lift up Giant boulders [

You must be registered for see links

] but as soon has he gathered natural energy he was able to perform this strength feat. [

You must be registered for see links

] This implies that natural energy is what enables the character to get such a feat.

I see your point in wanting me to do so, but nobody has asked, it would seem like a waste of time to do so when I could just explain.

Also point of thread was to show that SM is a given power, same as CM but not exactly in the same way.

 

[xxSAGExx]

I was wondering when someone else was going to post. I though it would actually be something worthy proving wrong but it's not. But I'll still state why you're wrong.

Right Naruto isn't given natural energy, he absorbs it which is his original ability. But when he starts to utilize it and enhance and improve himself he is using a given power. EX: SM

When SM is used. It requires the use of Natural energy. Basically it requires the use of an external source of power that was not originally yours. You try to state the facts of training but I've already said that most of the time it's not about training.

Even if we put training into this subject he still needs to use external/given power to achieve SM.

@Bold Natural energy is an energy by itself and not just some external information, otherwise why would it turn a person to stone if not controlled properly. Natural energy is the atmosphere and mother earths power. When used with your own technique you are using a given power since it is not yours originally.

Even if you train using an external/given power it is still a external/given power.

Natural energy gives you power once it is controlled and mixed.

As you said about Naruto needing the external power of natural energy, a ninja who learn jutsus for others need that external information to preform a jutsu, take away that information and they can't do the jutsu since it was never theirs. A ninja still needs external info just how Naruto need that external power, take away both and Naruto can't use clones, rasengan, summoning, SM. Sasuke can't use none of his Chidori variations since it was based on Kakashi's chidori, his fire jutsus that he learned for scrolls, uchiha jutsus, Oro jutsus, the taijutsu he copied from Lee in part 1 (copying is taking info on how a jutsu is done from an external source so most pretty much all of Kakashi's jutsus. Shikamaru, Itachi, Ino, Jiraiya, Obito all using given power when they use jutsus that they didn't make up since it takes external info to do those jutsus.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

As you said about Naruto needing the external power of natural energy, a ninja who learn jutsus for others need that external information to preform a jutsu, take away that information and they can't do the jutsu since it was never theirs. A ninja still needs external info just how Naruto need that external power, take away both and Naruto can't use clones, rasengan, summoning, SM. Sasuke can't use none of his Chidori variations since it was based on Kakashi's chidori, his fire jutsus that he learned for scrolls, uchiha jutsus, Oro jutsus, the taijutsu he copied from Lee in part 1 (copying is taking info on how a jutsu is done from an external source so most pretty much all of Kakashi's jutsus. Shikamaru, Itachi, Ino, Jiraiya, Obito all using given power when they use jutsus that they didn't make up since it takes external info to do those jutsus.

Why do you keep talking about external information? This thread is about SM being a given power due to the use of an external power source. If you are trying to state similarities between power and information of jutsu's then you are wasting your time.

This is specifically about SM and the external power source needed to use it, making it a given power.

You state all ninjutsu need some sort of external source but your going off topic. When this is clearly about power and power alone, not knowledge. It's about original power or given power. I thought you would come up with something better with all the time you've spent on my thread.

Next time you post, stay on topic.

 

[KingHashirama]

Sage mode pimp slaps?

 

[Johndoesknowall]

Sage mode pimp slaps?

I don't think you read my thread. Please read it if you think I mean two people fighting against each other in these modes

 

[xxSAGExx]

Why do you keep talking about external information? This thread is about SM being a given power due to the use of an external power source. If you are trying to state similarities between power and information of jutsu's then you are wasting your time.

This is specifically about SM and the external power source needed to use it, making it a given power.

You state all ninjutsu need some sort of external source but your going off topic. When this is clearly about power and power alone, not knowledge. It's about original power or given power. I thought you would come up with something better with all the time you've spent on my thread.

Next time you post, stay on topic.

You don't get it, you're singling out that SM is a given power like it's in the same category as CM when CM is not only power taken from Juugo/Oro but was given to whoever Oro gave it too where as SM was trained to use a source of external power. Naruto absorbing Natural energy is Naruto taking, not being giving. To say that SM is a given power is to say all jutsus that was not created by that person is given power as well since they all took external sources.

The only thing that was given to Naruto was information on how to train, nothing else was given. SM enhancing other abilities were not given, it was the end result of training. Was Naruto just given the ability to absorb Natural energy? Was Naruto just given the ability to stay perfectly still? Was Naruto given the ability to evenly balance his chakra with Natural energy? Or did he use his clones to increase his training for each step thus gaining the enhancement of SM.

Next you're going to say Sasuke's Kenjutsu skill is a given power because he uses a sword, TenTen was given power because she uses ninja weapons, Madara was given power for using his sharingan to tame Kurama. Working your butt off to gain the skills/ability to gain something is not being given it. Natural energy is nothing but a tool that Naruto used to get stronger. Everything a ninja uses is a tool. Sharingan, Bijuus, shurikens, swords, jutsus, chakra are all tools.

 

[Bieber]

Sennin Mōdo is not a given power nor does it fall under it.

 

[Johndoesknowall]

You don't get it, you're singling out that SM is a given power like it's in the same category as CM when CM is not only power taken from Juugo/Oro but was given to whoever Oro gave it too where as SM was trained to use a source of external power. Naruto absorbing Natural energy is Naruto taking, not being giving. To say that SM is a given power is to say all jutsus that was not created by that person is given power as well since they all took external sources.

The only thing that was given to Naruto was information on how to train, nothing else was given. SM enhancing other abilities were not given, it was the end result of training. Was Naruto just given the ability to absorb Natural energy? Was Naruto just given the ability to stay perfectly still? Was Naruto given the ability to evenly balance his chakra with Natural energy? Or did he use his clones to increase his training for each step thus gaining the enhancement of SM.

Next you're going to say Sasuke's Kenjutsu skill is a given power because he uses a sword, TenTen was given power because she uses ninja weapons, Madara was given power for using his sharingan to tame Kurama. Working your butt off to gain the skills/ability to gain something is not being given it. Natural energy is nothing but a tool that Naruto used to get stronger. Everything a ninja uses is a tool. Sharingan, Bijuus, shurikens, swords, jutsus, chakra are all tools.

1. SM itself is an example of external/given power and it also uses external/given power. It is in the same category as CM but not in the exact same way and I already stated this isn't talking about all jutsu's using a external source, but about original power or external power.

2. Naruto is using Nature's power. After he absorbs natures energy and mixes it, at that point when he uses it, it is no longer his original power. He uses Nature's power mixed with his own.

@Bold as you said "Enhancement of SM" The energy acquired to obtain SM is Natures energy, which when mixed and controlled enhances and improves the user.

3. Wrong on so many levels. Now your talking about objects and weapons. You're going off topic again. I can see what you mean as to saying that it's Sasuke power as in it is in his arsenal of tools to use. But Like I've said before this thread is specifically about SM, original power or given power. Meaning that it pertains to the use of energy and not objects or tools. Also I believe you took given to literal.

"Given" isn't just used as only someone handed it to you, but used in a sense of not originality.

Sennin Mōdo is not a given power nor does it fall under it.

I tend to disagree, if you can prove me wrong state it.

Okay I get what OP is trying to say where they are both 'given' powers, meaning the source for CM is Orochimaru and the source for SM is Nature, but CM is litteraly given to you by somebody or something, there is no other way of obtaining CM. However SM is not 'given' even though it comes from an external source. Just because the user can get natural energy does not mean that he can use SM.

Of course you can say that just because a user is given CM does not mean that they can use it. But the only major obstacle is the death possibility from CM. Once you can surpass that you can use CM power. But SM you actually have to train and there are different stages stated above, staying still, use of toad oil, balance with your own chakra etc. Just because nature 'gave' you the energy does not make SM a 'given' power. Nature only makes it possible to use SM. I would say that majority of SM is obtained through training and the abilities of the user, of course it still can't be done without natural energy but neither could a lot of things in NV.

Also I believe you took "given" literally to. "Given" is used as not original, it doesn't just mean handed to you.

 

[Bieber]

I tend to disagree, if you can prove me wrong state it.

A given power is something that does not have to be trained for.
- Does Sennin Mōdo require training? Yes.
- Does Curse Mark require training? No.