[Discussion] Why Zoro is not Weaker than Luffy

[LitzSabr]

First of all, you didn't understand a lot of my points, even from the OT. This time, I'll make it real simple.
And listen one thing that throughout the whole thread and in OT, some of my points aren't there to say that "Zoro=Luffy", they are just about clearing some misconceptions like the one below.

Your point was that Luffy would've lost too if he was wounded. How does that prove that Zoro is equal to Luffy? it really doesn't. All it means is that a wounded Zoro got stomped by Arlong and so would a wounded Luffy. There's nothing implying that if Zoro wasn't wounded he would've beaten Arlong. That fight was Pre-gears anyways.

What if that fight was pre-gears? When Luffy got gears, zoro got equally strong too.
But about the point, The purpose of this point is to tell that if you think that Luffy is stronger than Zoro because he beat Arlong then it is wrong. This beat is broken, because we didn't saw a zoro at 100% fight Arlong.

I was talking about the fight in the desert. That was for comic relief only. The fight in Whiskey Peak isn't proving that Zoro=Luffy. That fight was interrupted by Nami.

That was indeed a serious fight. I proved it. Why else would Zoro put on his bandana on his fight before fighting? He does fight without putting it on, but the only time you'll see him fight when it's on is when its a real fight.
You are living in denial by saying it wasn't a serious fight, just because it suits your opinion. I gave the FACT.

That was an example i used. Two people clashing doesn't mean they're equal.

Did you even read my last post? Seriously man, why do you reply like this?
Mihawk in the fight wasn't paying attention to Vista(manga), he was thinking about Luffy and his influence over other people.

That's a baseless opinion. The fact that WB was the strongest man in the world is enough to put him above Shanks. We know Luffy is always fighting the strongest opponent and we've seen what he's capable of. Luffy's feats heavily outclass Zoro's. Luffy's feats>Zoro's feats.

The fact that WB was known as the strongest after Roger died doesn't support Shanks being stronger than WB. It only proves that WB and Roger were indeed equal.

Then put WB above Shanks, because he was called the strongest man. Roger and WB were equal but what about it? What has that ever got to do with the Luffy and Zoro matchup?
And about Luffy's feats, Not every feat is comparable, I'll take about it in the last point where you listed them, Below V.

I understood exactly what you meant. You're saying that Zoro could beat Enel if he had Haki. So? Sanji could've beaten him too You're trying to prove that Zoro>Enel. The M3 are all>Enel that doesn't mean that Zoro is equal to Luffy.

No! you doesn't understand what I am trying to say. It's just like the Arlong point. Zoro would beat Enel is a different matter. The main thing in this point is that if you think that beating Enel in anyway puts Luffy above Zoro, then you are Wrong. Luffy isn't Zoro's weakness unlike Enel. Get it this time man.

Lol what? The Douriki measures your Physical strength swordsmanship isn't an advantage. We found out that Kaku was a swordsman when he fought Zoro. Before that he was using Rokushiki. Kaku uses attacks that require physical strength like Bigan, Soru etc. Kaku was nowhere near Lucci's level. Kaku's Doriki 2200 is exactly how strong he is. Swords or not Doriki measures someones physical strength.

Why is swordsmanship not an advantage? Does it not increase your overall strength? - It Does!
Simple this time. Listen,
Kaku+swordsmanship = Way More stronger than before, as Kaku was a skilled one.
Kaku-swordsmanship=Weaker.
Now you get it?:eww:

Lol the fact that Luffy has a rubber body only eased the pain that Zoro took. He felt everything Luffy felt. I'm not saying that Luffy is more durable than Zoro. Zoro would've dropped from those Rokyougan's/Lucci's attacks since he doesn't have a rubber body. Your assumption of Kaku being easily above Jabra is baseless. Considering that even Oda himself portrayed them as rivals and gave Kaku a Doriki which is barely any higher than Jabra's. The whole point was to show that Kaku (Zoro) is next to Jabra (Sanji) whereas Lucci (Luffy) is on a whole nother level. Otherwise he would've given Kaku a higher Doriki or Lucci a lower one. Please show me this attack of G3's caliber being turned into dust. Also, you're saying that because Zoro was struggling to keep up with a weaker Rokushiki user with only 2200 Doriki he can somehow keep up with a better Rokushiki user with 4000 Doriki. Makes no sense at all. Especially since the gap is that huge.

Even though Luffy has a Rubber body. Zoro showed better endurance than that Rubber body. Now don't ask me why,, I already explained it in detail. That only means Zoro would've tanked those Rokuougans better.
About the bold part. Damn Please read the thread before saying things like this. I'll post stuff from a earlier post but never do this again.

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Now if you think that only a Gear 2nd Luffy is enough to defeat zoro, then you are mistaken. To match the striking power to zoro, he needs to go in gear 3rd.

Now why does he need to go G3?
Take the time when they fought Kraken as an example where Luffy used G3 while Zoro easily dealt the same amount of damge(although more lethal) or take another example; Back in Enies lobby a gear 3rd luffy punched through the wall and a small tower near the bridge

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While Kaku sliced through the whole Tower of Justice and his attack flew through it

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And later zoro stopped an attack of the same caliber which sliced through the Judicial Tower(But one more thing, this attack was stronger than the one that cut through the Judicial Tower, Kaku called the previous one a 'demonstration', i.e Zoro obliterated an attack even stronger than the previous one.)

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Now if you look at this picture

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You can clearly see that the Tower of justice is wider(a bit) than what Luffy destroyed. And Zoro completely obliterated an attack which was stronger than an attack that cut through the Tower and went on. Sure Luffy's hand would've destroyed alittle more if something else was present but so would have Kaku's Rankyaku which went on flying.

So without using Gear 3rd, there is no way Luffy can take on the full power of Zoro, but that would reduce his speed too, in exchange of making him comparable to Zoro in striking power.

Kaku is above Jyabura s told in the point above this. The difference in doriki is small but Kaku has the advantage of being a skilled swordsman. Kaku way above Jyabura.
Zoro could keep up with the physical speed of Lucci, his swords could, since he can keep up with the swords of a 2200 doriki user. The swords are faster. Also the Better endurance of Zoro easily makes up for his speed (only if there would be a small gap).

Again. I'm not saying that Luffy is more durable than Zoro. Luffy outclasses Zoro in every other department so this really doesn't matter. But just for the hell of it... Luffy went unconsiouss only after he beat Moriah. He didn't get knocked unconsiouss]. Which means that even while fighting Moriah he was trying to remain his conciousness and stopped doing it after the danger was over whereas Zoro was trying to stay concious when he took in Luffy's pain. Luffy falling asleep/losing conciousness after beating the main villain of the arc is a custom. He's doing it all the time.

Read the manga again, Luffy got unconcious when he gave the punch to Moriah and then the tower fell on him. He was already unconcious when his shadow came back. Luffy even back then with Crocodile, didn't get up for 3 days, due to stress. His durability to endure stress is great(cuz Rubber), but still excessive stress affects him and he has gotten unconcious due to it many time. It doesn't live up to all the hype. When things don't suit you, you call them a custom? Luffy only get unconcious when there is stress out of his limits. He doesn't do it after every main villian.
I guess this point was very clear, why do I need to discuss about this.Really?

Lol what are you talking about? Kizaru saying to Zoro that he must be tired doesn't in no way imply that Zoro would've done better than Luffy. This only implies that if Zoro would've been in perfect condition he would've been able to run or not go down so easily. That's like me saying that if Luffy was in the same condition as Zoro he would've done better than Zoro did. Exactly, a baseless assumption.

Again, see this point like you saw the Arlong & Enel one. Zoro would've done better same like Luffy, for all we know they are Equals. BUT The main thing is in point is not to say that Zoro=Luffy, it's to say that by this feat, you can't say that Luffy>Zoro, just because he performed better than an injured Zoro. So if this feat is used to say Luffy is superior, listen up it's broken.

Your saying that a casually done punch should oneshot Hyouzou. Zoro's Oni giri wasn't casual not to mention it was Rengoku Oni Giri. Gatling gun, Bazooka etc... Could easily oneshot Hyouzou. Btw... Hody didn't get up after Red Hawk. He stayed down and coughed out all the E.G's that he took. He didn't eat them.

It was was Rengoku Oni Giri. Well Luffy didn't use a normal Geat 2nd Jet pistol(which can take down a pacifista), he used Red Hawk. The whole argument is invalid, because the base is wrong.
Hody didnt got up again? Yeah Right lol

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Comparing Monet vs Luffy to Zoro vs Monet is the same thing as if i compared Law vs Yeti brothers to Zoro vs Yeti brothers. Zoro got easily dealt with whereas Law stomped both. Both of these fights had nothing to do with the character's strength. Luffy and Zoro both got outsmarted not overpowered.

Finally a better argument. But nonetheless, it was a sneak attack to Zoro, not in case of Law. In case of Monet fight, Monet didn't used a sneak attack on neither Zoro nor Luffy so that is comparable.

It wasn't from a scan. The admirals HAVE the same fighting power. Fact. The fact that Akainu managed to extreme-diff Aokiji proves that they're both on the same level.

They are not equals, since Akainu beat Aokiji. Period. And how in the hell you can call that thing a FACT, when it is never stated and has been proven 100% wrong.

Let's assume Zoro and Luffy do have the same fighting power. Does this mean that if they were fighting it would end in a tie? No. It only means that one would be able to extreme-diff the other. A scan from 2007 holds no truth when it's 2013 and the characters have gone through major upgrades

When there is same fighting power, it's a Tie. Just like WB and Roger. Who said that it necessarily has to end in one side winning.
About the 2007 part, See, this is why your arguments are too broken. You say that the scan doesn't hold true(which BTW it still does!), since after 2007 both characters have gone through major upgrades. Now this is Your reason to say it's wrong now, If that is your reason to say that it is wrong then that means that before 2007, both were equal according to you, Right? XD. Now Listen, The Fights between Straw Hats and CP9 ended in volume 44 which came in 2006. That means you are indirectly admitting that a gear 3rd Luffy is equal to Zoro because they were called equal by Oda later in 2007, after the events of Enies Lobby, but then you say things like they were not equal back then etc, also then why are you sure Zoro could'nt have defeated Arlong etc etc. Now what kind of twisted logic are you using?:leaf:
Explain me this!

Physical strength: Luffy is stuck between two buildings and pushes a whole city-block apart while in a position where he can't even spread his arms.

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Luffy while in his deathbed lifting a huge rock and tossing it over a 100 meters this feat was calculated and it put Luffy's strength at millions of tons. Look at the size of that rock and how high Luffy tossed it.

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Luffy running around with a 700 ton golden ball attached to his arm. Calculated and accepted. There are too many scans of him running around with it so i just posted this.

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Zoro's little building tossing feat is nothing compared to what Luffy has done.

Speed:

Base Luffy while lowballing casually dodged a liquid explosion from point blank. This feat put him at Massively Hypersonic (faster than Mach 100). This feat is currently the best speed feat seen from the straw hats. Also taking into account that he didn't even need G2 to pull it off and he was lowballing.

DC:

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Nuff said.

Stamina: busted through ID, survived Magellan's poison and was still able to move around. Survived Ivankov's treatment twice, got shitstomped by the admirals, vice-admirals and strong individuals in the war yet he was still able to keep on fighting.

Durability: Zoro's durability is slightly superior

CoA: Luffy fully coating his G3 arm with Haki while underwater and weakened.

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CoC: Knocked out 50,000 fishmen.

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CoO: Casually dancing through Hody's Yabusame.

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Feel free to show me Zoro's feats that are better than Luffy's. All you've been doing is assuming and claiming this and that. Give me feats.

Now this may be a long argument, but it's real weak. Just read the second line of my OT. These Feats AREN'T COMPARABLE. Do I not know about these feats? Why aren't they used because they Aren't comparable.
Luffy did this, did that? How can you use that to compare him to Zoro?
Did you ever saw Zoro stuck b/w two buildings(before 2007 L.oL)? Even saw Zoro in need to lift a rock and toss it?(also when Luffy did that, it wasn't like that he just got injured, he was treated alot before that),ever saw Zoro got a Golden Bell stuck on his arm?(2007 lol) No. So how can you compare Luffy to Zoro with these feats. It's not like we saw Zoro dealing with the same situations so that we may say that Zoro didn't do it like Zoro or did better or whatever. Simply put, it can't be used for comparison if you can't find a relation.

This is why I never used the building lifting other feats, because there is no relationship(alabasta only) which can be made to compare it to the feats of other person and say that he is more stronger or weaker (Find something like I did with enies Lobby part about Zoro equal to G3 of Luffy, Before 2007 lol)

And as for Speed.. Man, Have you gone senile?? 100 Mach!?!? SERIOUSLY?
Calculations of luffy's speed based on his feat of dodging the bullet of Demaro Black. It's 13 mach.
These are the calculation (sorry I was unable to directly post the link)

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Luffy dodges a bullet from very close range. While he may have used mantra to know that the gun was being shot, he didn't move until after the gun was fired as we can clearly see, which is what's important here.

First thing's first: Flintlock Pistols have a muzzle velocity of 1,200 fps (About 366 m/s)

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Now I'll need to do some scaling to determine how far from Luffy the barrel of the gun was.

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Here we can see that Luffy's head height is scaled at 85.1 pixels while the distance between the gun barrel and his hood material (Which we see does not get touched by the bullet as well) is at 19.1 pixels. The average male human head has a height of around 9 inches (.23 m). 85.1 / 19.1 = 4.46. .23 / 4.46 = .052 m

.052 m / 366 m/s = .00014 s, the time Luffy has to dodge.

Now for Luffy's movement, I have get the angle at which he arched compared to where the gun was pointed at his head.

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The actual line may seem off, but it's actually just the image that feels inconsistent. Whereas in the previous scan the gun was level with a point just above Luffy's nose, that would seem impossible with this scan unless fake Luffy pointed the gun downwards for some reason, or decided to bend down himself. It'd have to be one of those two things, otherwise the scan is just inconsistent and actually makes no physical sense. I just made it so that the angle was which way Luffy's nose pointed at, which makes a little more sense.

According to Gimp, Luffy bends back at 20.77 degrees of an arc. Now, to steal borrow what Chinaman did in the Bleach thread:

According to multiple searches on google, Luffy is 1.72 m from what I can find. Using a circumference equation (Pi*2R) and using Luffy's height as as the radius:

3.14 * 2 * 1.72 = 10.8 m. Then 360 / 20.77 = 17.33. 10.8 / 17.33 = .62 m, the amount Luffy moved.

Finally, to get the movement speed, we simply take the distance and divide by time:

.62 / .00014 = 4,428.57 m/s, or mach 13

The liquid explosion is a better feat (no calculations as of now) but how does it make 13 mach a 100 Mach?? Dude you serious?

Then comes the stamina point. Luffy's endurance is what allowed all that. He endured the pain and kept on moving and we all know Zoro's endurance is better than Luffy. So Zoro would've done better than Luffy in those conditions(this point is comparable because already know from Thriller Bark that Zoro has a better endurance than Luffy). Nuff said man.
Zoro is slightly superior in durability?? He is superior by a long shot(a direct comparison is given)

About Haki arguments. Zoro has a better CoA, Oda called it himself. Period(I already said it in the thread, look at that before asking when). That superior CoA makes up for Luffy's additional CoC which nevertheless would have no effect on Zoro.

CoO feat is Incomparable. Hody never shot Yabusame at Zoro so that we'll see how he does against it.

-Don't say that I just called them incomparable and neglected them. If you can make a relation of some kind which makes sense, Show me!

------
Lastly, write good arguments. I'm not saying that I am some exceptional thing or something (normal human here), but man.. don't make me write an essay for something which is mostly written without understanding what the other person is saying. :eww:

 

[~Naruto&Itachi~]

@OP
where in the manga was it said that zoro had stronger CoA???
And Luffy >>> Zoro.... Captain >>> 1st mate

 

[Fireplay]

First of all, you didn't understand a lot of my points, even from the OT. This time, I'll make it real simple.
And listen one thing that throughout the whole thread and in OT, someof my points doesn'aren't to say that "Zoro=Luffy", they are just about clearing some misconceptions like the one below.



What if that fight was pre-gears? When Luffy got gears, zoro got equally strong too.
But about the point, The purpose of this point is to tell that if you think that Luffy is stronger than Zoro because he beat Arlong then it is wrong. This beat is broken, because we didn't saw a zoro at 100% fight Arlong.

I never said Luffy is stronger because he beat Arlong. You brought it up. And now your saying that Zoro bringing out Asura was a boost that equals Gears 2 and Gears 3 lol.

That was indeed a serious fight. I proved it. Why else would Zoro put on his bandana on his fight before fighting? He does fight without putting it on, but the only time you'll see him fight when it's on is when its a real fight.
You are living in denial by saying it wasn't a serious fight, just because it suits your opinion. I gave the FACT.

Back in the desert Zoro didn't put on his bandana. Also, Luffy was hallucinating and didn't even know that he was fighting Zoro. He thought he was fighting Crocodile. Your talking about Whiskey Peak fight.

Did you even read my last post? Seriously man, why do you reply like this?
Mihawk in the fight wasn't paying attention to Vista(manga), he was thinking about Luffy and his influence over other people.

You already explained this. I already said that two people clashing doesn't mean they're equal. Doesn't matter who are fighting. I agree Mihawk didn't go all out on Vista but my point wasn't that Mihawk and Vista are equal. I used that as an example to prove that clashing doesn't mean equal. Since you're so persistent i'll just say that Shanks and WB clashing doesn't mean they're equal. WB was stronger and you saying that Shanks is stronger is a baseless opinion.

Then put WB above Shanks, because he was called the strongest man. Roger and WB were equal but what about it? What has that ever got to do with the Luffy and Zoro matchup?
And about Luffy's feats, Not every feat is comparable, I'll take about it in the last point where you listed them, Below V.

Lol did you even pay attention to what i said? I specifically said that WB is stronger than Shanks yet they clashed. You keep saying that Luffy and Zoro are equals and keep using the point that they clashed back in Whiskey Peak.

No! you doesn't understand what I am trying to say. It's just like the Arlong point. Zoro would beat Enel is a different matter. The main thing in this point is that if you think that beating Enel in anyway puts Luffy above Zoro, then you are Wrong. Luffy isn't Zoro's weakness unlike Enel. Get it this time man.

I'll make this simple. Luffy>Enel, Zoro>Enel, Sanji>Enel. Luffy beating Enel doesn't put him above Zoro but because Zoro can beat Enel it doesn't mean that he's next to Luffy either.

Your point: Luffy beating Enel doesn't mean he's above Zoro
My point: That match-up is irrelevant and shouldn't even be brought up because it's clear that Zoro could also beat Enel. I never assumed that Luffy vs Enel would put Luffy above Zoro.

Why is swordsmanship not an advantage? Does it no increase your overall strength?
Simple this time. Listen,
Kaku+swordsmanship = Way More stronger than before, as Kaku was a skilled one.
Kaku-swordsmanship=Weaker.

Kaku was always a swordsman

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. Swordsmanship isn't an advantage at all and doesn't boost your power in any way. Give Luffy Santoryu. He wouldn't be stronger than he is now unless he trains for years and years and makes his swordsmanship superior to his brawling. Kaku was always a swordsman and was always training his swordsmanship. Rokushiki was his style. Zoro with swords>Sanji. Sanji>Zoro without swords. Zoro's swords make him stronger because his fighting style is strictly based on swords and he's trained with them for years. Kaku has done the same he has Rokushiki+swords. His Doriki is 2200 due to his physical strength. It's pretty much the same concept as power level in Dbz.

Kaku didn't just pick up swords and get stronger. He was always a swordsman.

Read the manga again, Luffy got unconcious when he gave the punch to Moriah and then the tower fell on him. He was already unconcious when his shadow came back. Luffy even back then with Crocodile, didn't get up for 3 days, due to stress. His durability to endure stress is great(cuz Rubber), but still excessive stress affects him and he has gotten unconcious due to it many time. It doesn't live up to all the hype. When things don't suit you, you call them a custom? Luffy only get unconcious when there is stress out of his limits. He doesn't do it after every main villian.
I guess this point was very clear, why do I need to discuss about this.Really?

I'm done explaining this. Read my last post. I said Zoro is more durable and that's it rendering my points about why Luffy went uncocious useless at this point.

Again, see this point like you saw the Arlong & Enel one. Zoro would've done better same like Luffy, for all we know they are Equals. BUT The main thing is in point is not to say that Zoro=Luffy, it's to say that by this feat, you can't say that Luffy>Zoro, just because he performed better than an injured Zoro. So if this feat is used to say Luffy is superior, listen up it's broken.

I never used this as a point. But this is practically irrelevant. Zoro would've performed better but there's nothing there that says he would've performed as well as Luffy which again makes this irrelevant.

It was was Rengoku Oni Giri. Well Luffy didn't use a normal Geat 2nd Jet pistol(which can take down a pacifista), he used Red Hawk. The whole argument is invalid, because the base is wrong.
Hody didnt got up again? Yeah Right lol

Luffy used a casual G2 Jet Pistol when he punched Hyouzou. Not Red Hawk. Now you're just making stuff up. Jet pistol is as strong as Luffy intends it to be. The jet pistol he used on Hyouzou was casual and didn't have as much strength behind it as the one he used on the pacifista.

@scan. My mistake didn't remember that Hody got up. Still it was an effective oneshot considering that it was enough to drain all of his powers and make him fodder (coughed out steroids).

Finally a better argument. But nonetheless, it was a sneak attack to Zoro, not in case of Law. In case of Monet fight, Monet didn't used a sneak attack on neither Zoro nor Luffy so that is comparable.

It wasn't a sneak attack lol. Zoro got caught in the gas which knocked him out. Monet grabbed Luffy and tried to freeze him but Luffy kicked the ground, made a hole in it and fell down the basement. Your clearly talking about the extended fight (filler) that happened in the anime. In the manga Luffy and Monet never even fought. Don't use anime scenes as arguments please because this was filler.

They are not equals, since Akainu beat Aokiji. Period. And how in the hell you can call that thing a FACT, when it is never stated and has been proven 100% wrong.

Yet they're on the same level. Akainu is slightly stronger than Aokiji but they still have the same fighting power. Having the same fighting power doesn't mean that they're equal to the point where one can't beat the other. For example when Ace fought Jinbe. Back then they were equal to the point where one couldn't beat the other. Luffy and Zoro are nowhere near that close.

Same fighting power=On the same level not equal. Again, that statement was made 2007 before the characters went through major upgrades.

When there is same fighting power, it's a Tie. Just like WB and Roger. Who said that it necessarily has to end in one side winning.
About the 2007 part, See, this is why your arguments are broken too. You say that the scan doesn't hold true(which BTW it still does!), since after 2007 both characters have gone through major upgrades. Now this is Your reason to say it's wrong now, If that is your reason to say that it is wrong then that means that before 2007, both were equal according to you, Right? . Now Listen, The Fights between Straw Hats and CP9 ended in volume 44 which came in 2006. It that means you are indirectly admitting that a gear 3rd Luffy is equal to Zoro because they were called equal by Oda later in 2007, after the events of Enies Lobby, but then say things like how were they equal back then, why are you sure Zoro could've defeated Arlong etc etc. Now what kind of twisted logic are you using?
Explain me this!

For starters: I already explained the fighting power concept. Now, statements from 2007 are outdated and bare no truth in 2013 when the characters have gone through obvious upgrades. What you're saying is that because in 2007 Zoro and Luffy were said to have the same fighting power they still do. That's outright ridiculous. In 2008 Oda was asked in a SBS that if Zoro and Sanji got into a fight who would win. Oda refused to answer the question and threw in a joke instead. Now if Zoro was truly=Luffy why didn't he just say that Zoro would win?

1: Oda has stated that Roger and WB are the strongest pirates to ever live. Now do you think this still bares truth in lets say 2025?

2: Luffy and Smoker were rivals. Now does it seem like Luffy is next to him anymore?

3: Coby is alot weaker than Luffy but will eventually become his rival

Character's powers change and their level increases. Luffy has improved more than any of the Straw Hats.

Back at the equal point: Did i ever say that they were equal? I'm the one who's been saying that same fighting power isn't the same as being equals.

Now this may be a long argument, but it's real weak. Just read the second line of my OT. These Feats AREN'T COMPARABLE. Do I not know about these feats? Why aren't they used because they Aren't comparable.
Luffy did this, did that? How can you use that to compare him to Zoro?
Did you ever saw Zoro tuck b/w two buildings(before 2007 L.oL), Even saw Zoro in need to lift a rock and toss it(also when Luffy did that, it wasn't like that he just got injured, he was treated alot before that),ever saw Zoro got a Golden Bell stuck on his arm(2007 lol), No. So how can you compare Luffy to Zoro with these feats. It's not like we saw Zoro dealing with the same situations so that we may say that Zoro didn't do it like Zoro or did better or whatever. Simply put, it can't be used for comparison if you can't find a relation.

The whole point is that Luffy has shown superior physical strength then that of Zoro's. Zoro's feats pale in comparison to Luffy's feats. Yes, he hasn't had a 700 ton golden bell attached to his arm but has he shown anything proving that he could pull that off? No. He hasn't tossed a hill but has he shown anything that proves he could? No. By your logic Zoro could lift the iceberg that Jozu lifted even though he hasn't shown anything that put him at that level. Feats are facts. Your assuming. Zoro doesn't have feats that would put him at that level therefore we deal with what we have. No feats=Weak argument. Luffy has shown superior physical strength feats.

And as for Speed.. Man, Have you gone senile?? 100 Mach!?!? SERIOUSLY?
Calculations of luffy's speed based on his feat of dodging the bullet of Demaro Black. It's 13 mach.
These are the calculation (sorry I was unable to directly post the link)














































The liquid explosion is a better feat (no calculations as of now) but how does it will make 13 mach a 100 Mach?? Dude you serious?

Luffy's bullet dodging feat was done a long ago and that wasn't him at his max speed either. He was lowballing. Your taking a feat that was barely a feat and making it his official speed. His liquid explosion feat has been put at around Massively Hypersonic (which is mach 100+) and he pulled it off while in his base form. Accepted at Massively Hypersonic. Mach 100+ isn't impossible considering that OP is the fastest verse of HST. Sage Naruto is mach 40 and Madara Uchiha is mach 140. BM Naruto is faster than Mach 100 (don't remember the exact mach but he is at Massively Hypersonic+)

About Haki arguments. Zoro has a better CoA, Oda called it himself. Period(I already said it in the thread, look at thtat before asking when). That superior CoA makes up for Luffy's additional CoC which nevertheless would have no effect on Zoro.

CoO feat is Incomparable. Hody never shot Yabusame at Zoro so that we'll see how he does against it.

-Don't say that I just called them incomparable and neglected them. If you can make a relation of some kind which makes sense, Show me!

Oda only said that Zoro specializes in CoA. He hasn't shown any CoA feats that would put his above or next to Luffy's. Not to mention again your misunderstanding the statement. Saying that Zoro specializes in CoA isn't saying Zoro's CoA>Luffy's or M3's. It simply means that out of all the Haki categories he's best at CoA whereas Sanji is best as CoO. Zoro hasn't even shown CoO feats. He's shown low level CoA at best. Feats trump misunderstood statements.

 

[LitzSabr]

I never said Luffy is stronger because he beat Arlong. You brought it up. And now your saying that Zoro bringing out Asura was a boost that equals Gears 2 and Gears 3 lol.

I never said that you said that. U_U. You just had some misconceptions about the point and I told you why I said that. Zoro was always equal to Luffy, even with or without gears, don't you read where I explained that part?

Back in the desert Zoro didn't put on his bandana. Also, Luffy was hallucinating and didn't even know that he was fighting Zoro. He thought he was fighting Crocodile. Your talking about Whiskey Peak fight.

Now you know that I was talking about the Whiskey Peak fight?

You already explained this. I already said that two people clashing doesn't mean they're equal. Doesn't matter who are fighting. I agree Mihawk didn't go all out on Vista but my point wasn't that Mihawk and Vista are equal. I used that as an example to prove that clashing doesn't mean equal. Since you're so persistent i'll just say that Shanks and WB clashing doesn't mean they're equal. WB was stronger and you saying that Shanks is stronger is a baseless opinion.

Lol did you even pay attention to what i said? I specifically said that WB is stronger than Shanks yet they clashed. You keep saying that Luffy and Zoro are equals and keep using the point that they clashed back in Whiskey Peak.

Vista and Mihawk comparison can't be used here. It's not like the case of Zoro and Luffy when both Zoro and Luffy were going all out. About WB and Shanks, first I never said that Shanks was stronger, second you can somehow relate their collision to Luffy's and Zoro's, but the one done at Whiskey peak was different. They did it more than once with no result unlike Shanks and WB. Still if you wan't to say that it's because there was very small gap in power of both, then it can also go like this that Zoro>Luffy. But the no result both times implies it's equal.

I'll make this simple. Luffy>Enel, Zoro>Enel, Sanji>Enel. Luffy beating Enel doesn't put him above Zoro but because Zoro can beat Enel it doesn't mean that he's next to Luffy either.

Your point: Luffy beating Enel doesn't mean he's above Zoro
My point: That match-up is irrelevant and shouldn't even be brought up because it's clear that Zoro could also beat Enel. I never assumed that Luffy vs Enel would put Luffy above Zoro.

You finally get what I was trying to say Eh..

Kaku was always a swordsman

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. Swordsmanship isn't an advantage at all and doesn't boost your power in any way. Give Luffy Santoryu. He wouldn't be stronger than he is now unless he trains for years and years and makes his swordsmanship superior to his brawling. Kaku was always a swordsman and was always training his swordsmanship. Rokushiki was his style. Zoro with swords>Sanji. Sanji>Zoro without swords. Zoro's swords make him stronger because his fighting style is strictly based on swords and he's trained with them for years. Kaku has done the same he has Rokushiki+swords. His Doriki is 2200 due to his physical strength. It's pretty much the same concept as power level in Dbz.

Kaku didn't just pick up swords and get stronger. He was always a swordsman.

Kaku had a doriki of 2200 aside from being a swordsman. He had all the six Forms. He was slightly above Jyabura with swords too. Only his doriki puts him above Jyabura.
Swordsmanship adds things up. It doesn't boost your doriki neither did I said that but it certainly boosts you overall power. Now that it's explained, don't deviate the point from the real topic.

I'm done explaining this. Read my last post. I said Zoro is more durable and that's it rendering my points about why Luffy went uncocious useless at this point.

If you can't argue on this, then you are free to leave. But remember Zoro is more durable and Luffy went unconcious useless because of the stress. If there was no stress, he wouldn't have went unconcious. So again, Why did he went unconcious? Because Danger was over? No! Because there was excessive stress. Had he went unconcious if he had less stress and the danger was over?No, but then why did he lost senses this time?Because there wasn't some less stress this time, it made him reach his limit.
Pretty clear I guess that is.

I never used this as a point. But this is practically irrelevant. Zoro would've performed better but there's nothing there that says he would've performed as well as Luffy which again makes this irrelevant.

Glad you understand what I was saying in point 1, Skypiea and this.
But it's a possibilty, he could've performed even better than Luffy, how can you prove that wrong, just like you are asking me.

Luffy used a casual G2 Jet Pistol when he punched Hyouzou. Not Red Hawk. Now you're just making stuff up. Jet pistol is as strong as Luffy intends it to be. The jet pistol he used on Hyouzou was casual and didn't have as much strength behind it as the one he used on the pacifista.

@scan. My mistake didn't remember that Hody got up. Still it was an effective oneshot considering that it was enough to drain all of his powers and make him fodder (coughed out steroids).

I already said 2 posts ago, that yeah, we can't compare the G2 Jet pistol with R.Onigiri. But about the Hody one, it was never about if it drained his power or not, it's about a One Shot, which it wasn't. There Is no effective one shot, either it does, or it does not, which in this case, it didn't!

It wasn't a sneak attack lol. Zoro got caught in the gas which knocked him out. Monet grabbed Luffy and tried to freeze him but Luffy kicked the ground, made a hole in it and fell down the basement. Your clearly talking about the extended fight (filler) that happened in the anime. In the manga Luffy and Monet never even fought. Don't use anime scenes as arguments please because this was filler.

It was a sneak attack, If you remember Yeti bros were hidden and fired from when Zoro and the party were unprepared.
In the anime, the only scene added was Luffy using CoC. Rest was not filler and Zoro didn't have even these problems which Luffy got.

Yet they're on the same level. Akainu is slightly stronger than Aokiji but they still have the same fighting power. Having the same fighting power doesn't mean that they're equal to the point where one can't beat the other. For example when Ace fought Jinbe. Back then they were equal to the point where one couldn't beat the other. Luffy and Zoro are nowhere near that close.

Same fighting power=On the same level not equal. Again, that statement was made 2007 before the characters went through major upgrades.

They are neither on the same level neither they have the same fighting power. Don't you know the meaning of the word 'Same'. Akainu>Aokiji. Period. They didn't had the 'same' fighting power.

For starters: I already explained the fighting power concept. Now, statements from 2007 are outdated and bare no truth in 2013 when the characters have gone through obvious upgrades. What you're saying is that because in 2007 Zoro and Luffy were said to have the same fighting power they still do. That's outright ridiculous. In 2008 Oda was asked in a SBS that if Zoro and Sanji got into a fight who would win. Oda refused to answer the question and threw in a joke instead. Now if Zoro was truly=Luffy why didn't he just say that Zoro would win?

1: Oda has stated that Roger and WB are the strongest pirates to ever live. Now do you think this still bares truth in lets say 2025?

2: Luffy and Smoker were rivals. Now does it seem like Luffy is next to him anymore?

3: Coby is alot weaker than Luffy but will eventually become his rival

Character's powers change and their level increases. Luffy has improved more than any of the Straw Hats.

Back at the equal point: Did i ever say that they were equal? I'm the one who's been saying that same fighting power isn't the same as being equals.

First again, you don't know the meanig of the word 'Same'. Second, here you are accepting that before 2007 they were same, yet you are wasting my time on arguing on events before 2007 too. And Oda not saying Zoro>Sanji is his own choice, but it doesn't imply in no way that Zoro isn't equal to luffy.
About the points,

1. & 3. From these point, you are saying that people change overtime and someone becomes strong and surpasses others.. I agree. but after that time(2007), we haven't gotten any relation which shows Luffy is above Zoro.
2. Luffy and Zoro were never called Rivals in the manga, Fans call them that. And now I believe Luffy is stronger. Again not the case of Zoro and Luffy.

The whole point is that Luffy has shown superior physical strength then that of Zoro's. Zoro's feats pale in comparison to Luffy's feats. Yes, he hasn't had a 700 ton golden bell attached to his arm but has he shown anything proving that he could pull that off? No. He hasn't tossed a hill but has he shown anything that proves he could? No. By your logic Zoro could lift the iceberg that Jozu lifted even though he hasn't shown anything that put him at that level. Feats are facts. Your assuming. Zoro doesn't have feats that would put him at that level therefore we deal with what we have. No feats=Weak argument. Luffy has shown superior physical strength feats.

Jozu and Zoro aren't comparable so let alone there comparison (BTW, there are other clear feats which put Jozu above Zoro). Zoro and Luffy are comparable (same), so you can't say that Luffy > Zoro just because Luffy got in situations like that where he had to perform something. E.g: Luffy did some damage with G3 in Enies Lobby, Zoro turned an attack of that level into dust. Now that's comparable because we got to see both go all out and Luffy wasn't in any way better than Zoro.

Luffy's bullet dodging feat was done a long ago and that wasn't him at his max speed either. He was lowballing. Your taking a feat that was barely a feat and making it his official speed. His liquid explosion feat has been put at around Massively Hypersonic (which is mach 100+) and he pulled it off while in his base form. Accepted at Massively Hypersonic. Mach 100+ isn't impossible considering that OP is the fastest verse of HST. Sage Naruto is mach 40 and Madara Uchiha is mach 140. Naruto is also massively hypersonic.

Mach 100? (BTW Madara Mach 140 hmm). Dude next time you say like this, you won't get a reply. unless you give me some legitimate calculations to backup your statement. Whatever the case, I would like see them, because you are right, we shouldn't make that 14 mach his official speed (but i never said it was his total speed)as the liquid feat is better. But anyways how did you compare that with zoro's speed again? Did zoro get hit by the liquid explosion?

Edit 2: I searched about the 100 mach calculation and found one n also about the detonation velocity of liquid explosion and it's said to be 5.8-25 mach, i.e 2000-8500 m/s. Here 2000 is used since, What was smiley's detonation speed, we don't know, but it's bound to be low because it got many chemicals involved in it too(this thing should put it below 2000 m/s but 2000 is used). Still Luffy outran that liquid explosion (in base state) from point blank range at base. Now if you consider it like this that Luffy was at a distance of around ''174 cm''(his body height) from the explosion when the explosion was supposed to hit him(this was the distance that thsy used for calc and explosion was supposed to hit him .00005sec later covering just .1 m distance), it would make him like 100 mach. Yes it is plausible. But the thing is that he outran the liquid explosion, it only tells that he is atleast a 5.8+ mach at base (atleast if the slowest form of explosion is taken and also the distance isn't taken 174 cm but way less,because he can also outrun the explosion without covering 174 cm after. 00005 sec). That 174 cm number there is speculation, since the guys think that luffy was waay faster than the explosion, but it is not necessary. 100 mach is calculated only when you take 174 cm as the distance which luffy was away from the explosion when the explosion was supposed to hit him(it was supposed to hit him .00005sec later covering ".1 m distance",, now they think that luffy dodged it from .1 m, this thought of their also helps luffy getting better result). but it is not necessary that he got at a distance of 174 cm away from the explosion when it detonated,, the smiley was wrapped around him, a distance of 100cm could've done the work too, but that would largely reduce his speed result. Half the distance covered, half the speed,, depends on that... It can be less than that too, because Luffy needed to just get away from the explosion even if its 50 cm in 0.00005 secs. and outrun it keeping that same pace. Moreover smiley had many chemicals substances in it, that are sure to reduce it's detonation velocity. I can't say for sure, but if you are taking 174 cm then it will make the speed above 100 mach at even the slowest form of exploaion, i.e; 2000 m/s of detonation speed for liquid but resonably speaking, it should be more like (25+)-27 for Luffy or some at the very best!!(if you take less than 174 cm the distance he was away and consider that he dodged the explosion from ".1 m") because it was very close according to Luffy, so it isn't like he easily outran the explosion. Both are very close, even he's 100 or 30 or 40 etc. But it depends on you for now. that what you want to believe. Reasonably it should be around 25-27 mach yeah (if the low side of 174 cm is taken) seeing as how luffy hasn't shown anything like that in fights with people he has gotten and not even the top tiers have shown a 100 mach. If we'll get another good feat, it'll help get to a clear conclusion.
But for now, Luffy's fast, but Zoro's swordsplay still keep up a/c to comparable feats from manga. This one, aside from being a little broken, is not comparable too. You are welcome to try it, but remember we still haven't seen Zoro push himself that far, unlike Luffy, so to just conclude that he is slower than Luffy.

[You get what I'm trying to say right? Simply put, the liquid explosion can expand with a speed of 25 mach at the very best(5800 m/s, if you'd take 174 cm with this 8500 m/s it would make his speed waay waay high, like 500+ mach.. Just telling you so you know how it works), and since Luffy outran it at base, it means he is at least faster than 25 mach at base. How much exactly? That depends on what supposition you are using for your calculation. But it should be around 27 mach something reasonably]

[The 100 mach is a a big BS, it is if you want to make it.
I'll give you some good speeds feats too. Zoro back in Thriller bark, even way before Time Skip, a heavily injured zoro dodged a Beam which was light speed (LASER of a Pacifista, Kuma) , from a very close range. Yes, Lasers are only light and they travel at the Speed of Light. Only in the anime, they animate it slow like they do with Kizaru too so that we can see them..,, Like the pacifistas in anime also charge lasers, what it would do is increase the "intensity" of beams, it doesn't mean that it would have any effect on it's lightspeed, it only means that the light will not go dim early because it is so intense,, BUT I checked now and sometimes it's done in the manga too, not that it matters as far as it's velocity goes. Luffy did the same feat but after Time Skip and he was far away from the Pacifista unlike Zoro who was Very close to Kuma.
So, Only a Pre T.S worn out Zoro's feat>>>>liquid explosion feat by real physics, even if Luffy DID 100 or 200 or 300 mach or even if he did a 100000 Mach or whatever as Light speed is nearly 880991.09 mach(there is no controversy in this case like the material of smile etc in liquid explosion feat case), but I might not wanna consider it. Cuz the rage here will be unbearable. But no way in hell zoro is not keeping up with Luffy. He can EASILY.
Still I'd like to see what you have to say about this.]

Oda only said that Zoro specializes in CoA. He hasn't shown any CoA feats that would put his above or next to Luffy's. Not to mention again your misunderstanding the statement. Saying that Zoro specializes in CoA isn't saying Zoro's CoA>Luffy's or M3's. It simply means that out of all the Haki categories he's best at CoA whereas Sanji is best as CoO. Zoro hasn't even shown CoO feats. He's shown low level CoA at best. Feats trump misunderstood statements.

Again, Zoro never got to show the feats, so on what basis you are comparing Luffy with him and puting Luffy above him. Luffy's haki punch with G2 (red hawk) failed to one shot Hody, <-- That's his CoA!. While Zoro One shotted Hyouzou with his.
And Kaku had better mastery over Rankyaku. We saw his Rankyaku was even way above Lucci's. It's the Same with Zoro, he specializes in CoA, Luffy has good CoA too, but among the M3, zoro is exceptionally better than others at that a/c to Oda (Backup up with the Hody example, though it's not needed). It can't end in Luffy's favor, two points are in Zoro's favor.
---------------
Also Don't neglect my arguments. You left some. . Now We'll talk if you'll reply to them too.

 

[Fujitora]

Zoro did 2 or 3 (idr) different things with CoA whearas Luffy has just shown to use hardening.

Luffy~Zoro>Sanji imo

 

[KingHashirama]

Again when did I said that WB was the strongest? He tied with Roger when Roger was alive, WHICH means that Roger wasn't the strongest back then,, because he couldn't defeat WB and vice versa. He said that he currently he is the strongest because now his rival, Roger, was dead!

It means that the basis you are using for your arguments which are based upon general ideas like, 'he is stronger than him because his rank is better than him' are wrong. Up and above.

My analytical skills to tell if the captain is strongest or not?? Dude I put up a whole argument of Zoro being equal to his captain which you can't counter. I'm satisfied with my analytical skills. Until you prove it wrong, there'll be no weight in your words. Funny as how Oda himself wrote down about luffy being equal to zoro but you still deny the things which he did write.

L.ol, do you think Luffy saying something means anything when he himself is proven equal to Zoro. Even the author clearly said that, besides this thing here only shows that Luffy want someone at the top in his crew (when he'll be PK) else he'll be disappointed because it wouldn't fit with the theme of PK which is considered higher than WSS as far as title goes.

Again, you are not following manga logic. I put up the real thing in front of you here. The manga logic which you think is always applicable is not correct in that aspect, if it was right, I should have never been able to make this comparison and proof. I wrote my points since Oda himself made the manga that way so that we can conclude that Zoro is Luffy.

IF WB was tied with Roger, it would mean WB was the strongest pirate along with Roger.


Captain > Vice Captain/Right hand man > Left hand man > Other crew members.

Learn to deal with it, because it is a manga fact. Why a fact? Because it can not be countered.

Shanks > Ben Beckman

Roger > Rayleigh

WB > Marco

Blackbeard > Whatever that ex-warden's name is

Author never said Luffy = Zoro. Stop being a butt hurt fanboy.. I put up real things in front of your to.... you ignored em by saying "no that isn't how it is"...lmao. Get real dawg.

Not to mention the stronger the person the stronger their King's Haki is.

 

[LitzSabr]

IF WB was tied with Roger, it would mean WB was the strongest pirate along with Roger.


Captain > Vice Captain/Right hand man > Left hand man > Other crew members.

Learn to deal with it, because it is a manga fact. Why a fact? Because it can not be countered.

Shanks > Ben Beckman

Roger > Rayleigh

WB > Marco

Blackbeard > Whatever that ex-warden's name is

Author never said Luffy = Zoro. Stop being a butt hurt fanboy.. I put up real things in front of your to.... you ignored em by saying "no that isn't how it is"...lmao. Get real dawg.

Not to mention the stronger the person the stronger their King's Haki is.

What about the WB thing now? It only shows that the position of PK(or any other position like captain) doesn't really matter. And it doesn't always mean that you are the above the other person. Roger wasn't at alone at the top. Same with Zoro and Luffy.
Looks like you can't deal with the arguments, if you think Captains are always above first mate. Prove it in the case of Zoro and Luffy. I have countered it (you didn't counter mine). Dawg, I put the real things in front of you. You don't counter Logic with Fuk Logic.
Take for example, Oda himself called Zoro equal to Luffy, now that's a statement (not some wrong observation), which proves that it is not necessary for the captain to be strongest.

There are many things to King's Haki, but where did you read that the stronger the person is the stronger the King's Haki? Also, Akainu doesn't have King's Haki, yet he was more stronger than Ace who had it, many more examples can be given. But first tell me where did you read that?

(Aside from the topic, nice avatar).

 

[Aertes]

They were fighting seriously. These are the things which I can't make you understand. At what times does zoro put on his bandana? when he is damn serious! He did put it on that time. Why did he put it on? because Luffy was serious too. It's just like saying, Akainu and Whitebeard fought, but no, they were not serious. What's not serious is their fight being ended by Nami.

Even if it was serious, neither Zoro or Luffy used their full strength there. Nami interrupted the fight way before one of them could get serious enough to wound the other in meaningful way that would show their equality in feats and strength.
That example is ridiculous and the comparison you attempt childish. Whitebeard was a well known pirate, the strongest man in the world and Akainu a marine admiral. They are natural enemies. You are comparing a fight between two enemies that share no deep connection to a fight between nakamas that like,love and trust each other.

Secondly speed wise, If we won't deduce from what the characters in the manga say, then should I put an Einstein there to give us opinions? But before anybody says, Luffy at that time (with Kraken) used gear 3rd,so obviously he would be a little slow at that time for anyone to comment on his speed.

No, I am not underestimating Usopp's opinion on the matter. But you can't compares Usopp's ability to watch and follow Zoro's moves to Luffy's. Luffy has observation haki and he know how to use it pretty damn well. Usopp doesn't even know what CoO is. So,yes, Zoro speed is too much for Usopp to follow but that can not be said for Luffy too.Luffy has been shown to dodge very fast attacks without even trying.

Gear 2nd Luffy is a little faster than Zoro but Zoro's swordsplay speed can keep up with that, considering how fast it's called. Now if you think that only a Gear 2nd Luffy is enough to defeat zoro, then you are mistaken. To match the striking power to zoro, he needs to go in gear 3rd.

Now why does he need to go G3?
Take the time when they fought Kraken as an example where Luffy used G3 while Zoro easily dealt the same amount of damge(although more lethal) or take another example; Back in Enies lobby a gear 3rd luffy punched through the wall and a small tower near the bridge

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While Kaku sliced through the whole Tower of Justice and his attack flew through it

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And later zoro stopped an attack of the same caliber which sliced through the Judicial Tower(But one more thing, this attack was stronger than the one that cut through the Judicial Tower, Kaku called the previous one a 'demonstration', i.e Zoro obliterated an attack even stronger than the previous one.)

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Now if you look at this picture

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You can clearly see that the Tower of justice is wider(a bit) than what Luffy destroyed. And Zoro completely obliterated an attack which was stronger than an attack that cut through the Tower and went on. Sure Luffy's hand would've destroyed alittle more if something else was present but so would have Kaku's Rankyaku which went on flying.

So without using Gear 3rd, there is no way Luffy can take on the full power of Zoro, but that would reduce his speed too, in exchange of making him comparable to Zoro in striking power.

I am sorry but no. Luffy's CoA is very good and strong at this point. When Zoro shows any feat that his CoA is more advanced than Luffy's come back and make this claim again. Until then Luffy's CoA is enough to defend against Zoro. Also keep in mind that Luffy with his speed won't always be on the defend. The fact that he can dodge many attacks and strike faster than Zoro gives him an edge.
All your examples derives from facts of the pre time skip period. Luffy's feats with haki have greatly increased, as did Zoro's. On the post time skip example you brought, Luffy was under water, where his strength is reduced and he had no intentions of killing Surume or cutting him of. You can't claim that he used his full power to strike that and also keep in mind his hand was outside the bubble, in the water but he was able to maintain his 3rd gear and the armament around it.

About the CoA haki, Zoro never had the need to show it(because he never got any opponent of that Caliber) so how can you Compare that to Luffy's and say that he has a weaker Haki. Now why I said that zoro has a superior CoA, it's because Oda himself said that amongst the 3, Zoro specializes in that, so this speaks for itself

Same way you can't make imaginary feats for a character he hasn't yet demonstrated. It's true Zoro has not fought seriously since the timeskip but that doesn't mean that you can speculate feats that in your mind he should have and expect other people to take you seriously. You have no facts to back up your claim that Zoro's CoA is superior to Luffy's. When you do, make that thread again. At this point, all this is just speculation you make.
If you mean the One Piece wiki or the databooks, Oda doesn't write those. If there's any manga page where Oda says that Zoro's CoA is better than Luffy's be kind enough to present it. And specializes doesn't means, he is better than someone else, it means from the abilities a person has, that one is the best.

 

[LitzSabr]

Even if it was serious, neither Zoro or Luffy used their full strength there. Nami interrupted the fight way before one of them could get serious enough to wound the other in meaningful way that would show their equality in feats and strength.
That example is ridiculous and the comparison you attempt childish. Whitebeard was a well known pirate, the strongest man in the world and Akainu a marine admiral. They are natural enemies. You are comparing a fight between two enemies that share no deep connection to a fight between nakamas that like,love and trust each other.

Simple thing is, both fought a serious fight. Ok, it wasn't in the favor of any one even one bit. You are agreeing wth some things now, ok. About WB vs Akainu, all I wanted to show you was that when a fight is real, it is real!. Why do You think that example was childish? It's clear.
Both really disagreed with each other, so even being nakamas, they fought.
Nami interrupted before any one of the two was injured,, yeah luffy was saved I guess? Why can't it be that way then? But besides all, it's before 2007 when Oda stated both as 'equal', so both were even at that time equal. No way to counter it.

No, I am not underestimating Usopp's opinion on the matter. But you can't compares Usopp's ability to watch and follow Zoro's moves to Luffy's. Luffy has observation haki and he know how to use it pretty damn well. Usopp doesn't even know what CoO is. So,yes, Zoro speed is too much for Usopp to follow but that can not be said for Luffy too.Luffy has been shown to dodge very fast attacks without even trying.

About Zoro's speed and Luffy's, I've given some feats with physics in an earlier post. Look at my earlier post, that part is highlighted in pink color.

You don't believe that right?
Don't over hype Luffy's speed without backing it up is all my post means, if you take it real as those events DID happened, pre T.S zoro while heavily injured dodged that beam, then by powerscaling, it easily puts post T.S zoro on par with post T.S luffy, if not above.
You put Luffy above zoro in speed with arguments like - He did that and he didn't is not how you compare and prove, it's done like... He did that and he 'couldn't'.
And in that surume condition we are unable to conclude "their speed", usopp saw both attack, he thought one was very fast, so he remarked about the speed of his swordsplay. Does it put zoro's speed above luffy? No, because not a fair comparison. Does it hype up (most likely prove) zoro's speed like Luffy's? Yes. So why in your opinion Zoro can't keep up with Luffy again?

I am sorry but no. Luffy's CoA is very good and strong at this point. When Zoro shows any feat that his CoA is more advanced than Luffy's come back and make this claim again. Until then Luffy's CoA is enough to defend against Zoro. Also keep in mind that Luffy with his speed won't always be on the defend. The fact that he can dodge many attacks and strike faster than Zoro gives him an edge.
All your examples derives from facts of the pre time skip period. Luffy's feats with haki have greatly increased, as did Zoro's. On the post time skip example you brought, Luffy was under water, where his strength is reduced and he had no intentions of killing Surume or cutting him of. You can't claim that he used his full power to strike that and also keep in mind his hand was outside the bubble, in the water but he was able to maintain his 3rd gear and the armament around it.

Same way you can't make imaginary feats for a character he hasn't yet demonstrated. It's true Zoro has not fought seriously since the timeskip but that doesn't mean that you can speculate feats that in your mind he should have and expect other people to take you seriously. You have no facts to back up your claim that Zoro's CoA is superior to Luffy's. When you do, make that thread again. At this point, all this is just speculation you make.
If you mean the One Piece wiki or the databooks, Oda doesn't write those. If there's any manga page where Oda says that Zoro's CoA is better than Luffy's be kind enough to present it. And specializes doesn't means, he is better than someone else, it means from the abilities a person has, that one is the best.

First of all, the databooks are written by ODA, the OP wikia is not(But facts from manga and databooks or SBS are written there) and this thing about Zoro's haki, Oda said it in SBS vol 71, chap 701 (3rd time I'm saying this in the thread.. damn). Secondly, as you said Luffy used haki at surume(this thing fills up for underwater) , now that makes his G3 attack comparable to Zoro's. hm . Well that's in zoro's favor. Also, what about the Luffy and Kaku example?

Now for Haki, I'll give you a comparison. Luffy gave a gear 2nd jet post to Hyouzou and 2 others, hyouzou didn't fall. That says something about his durability compared to others, even a base hody was one shot by Zoro's one sword style 'Underwater'. Now Zoro one shot a Transformed hyouzou with R.Onigiri (possibly haki). Period. Luffy on the other hand failed to one shot a transformed Hody with a G2 Red Hawk (haki). Now who seems to be better? against the same foes that is.
Zoro's didn't push himself like Luffy's after T.S, aside from the above comparison, there is no other. That is for all needed for the arguments like "luffy has shown more haki, so his CoA>Zoro's."
I know the meaning of the word specialization, but looks like zoro does have the upper hand this time. Since their stats are so close, one is up in some, lower in other, we need a comparison to say that Luffy's CoA is better. But current one is in zoro's favor, and so Zoro's CoA>Luffy's.
Actually use this comparison to see who did better in Fishman Island arc (take this as the Fishman Island point in my OP, this one is more better) , since i can't edit that now.

 

[~Zonta~]

Zoro is strong super strong no doubt about it but he is not on par with luffy U_U

You have put forward great points in your claim but I beg to differ on some of them

 

[Ahmed1993]

Zoro is weaker than Luffy , deal with it U_U

 

[LitzSabr]

Zoro is weaker than Luffy , deal with it U_U

It looks like you can't... Deal with me.
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■) YEEEAAHHH!!

 

[~Naruto&Itachi~]

It looks like you can't... Deal with me.
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■) YEEEAAHHH!!

No...you're a just delusional fan who can't cope with the fact that luffy is stronger than zoro

 

[LitzSabr]

No...you're a just delusional fan who can't cope with the fact that luffy is stronger than zoro

I thought too, but what can I do.. The manga won't let me.

 

[Love Cook]

First of all, the databooks are written by ODA

First of all, i told you a page ago that the databooks aren't written by Oda.

It's basically 'filler' for extra merchandise and some sketches from Oda's sketchbook. You can't value what is written there. The databooks have screwed up a couple of times with reveals that were incorrect and other information that was off the mark.

 

[Hexuze]

Are you serious? I'm baffled that this thread even reached 4 pages. How could you possibly even attempt to argue that Zoro isn't weaker than Luffy when Zoro himself said he won't follow someone who's weaker than him. I can't even take you seriously anymore.

 

[LitzSabr]

First of all, i told you a page ago that the databooks aren't written by Oda.

It's basically 'filler' for extra merchandise and some sketches from Oda's sketchbook. You can't value what is written there. The databooks have screwed up a couple of times with reveals that were incorrect and other information that was off the mark.

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The First Line there. I also told you this a page ago.
Oda puts some Facts and Info about One Piece in databooks, which he didn't reveal in the manga (i might make it more complexed or for other reasons).

Are you serious? I'm baffled that this thread even reached 4 pages. How could you possibly even attempt to argue that Zoro isn't weaker than Luffy when Zoro himself said he won't follow someone who's weaker than him. I can't even take you seriously anymore.

Zoro never said that.
A guy already showed the Fishman Island Part where Luffy used CoC, but it doesn't show Zoro saying that.

 

[Hexuze]

Zoro never said that.
A guy already showed the Fishman Island Part where Luffy used CoC, but it doesn't show Zoro saying that.

Yes he has or something along those lines.

 

[LitzSabr]

Yes he has or something along those lines.

This is what Zoro said.

Before people ask for proof

Spoiler

And Zoro did state that he won't follow a weak man,, and Luffy is not a weak man. But he didn't said that he won't follow someone who is weaker than him. That is, he never called Luffy stronger than himself, as you can see in the video above or in the following scan.

Spoiler

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He never called himself weaker than Luffy.

He only meant that if Luffy is the captain, so he shouldn't be weak. Nothing more.

 

[Love Cook]

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The First Line there. I also told you this a page ago.
Oda puts some Facts and Info about One Piece in databooks, which he didn't reveal in the manga (i might make it more complexed or for other reasons).

Yeah, hate to burst your bubble but when you're telling other people that the wikia is an unreliable source than you shouldn't use it either, because in this case the wikia is wrong.

Just google it. and to quote someone from a different discussion:

Well I just read through like 25 pages of AP forums and the general consensus with input from Greg seems to be that the book was mainly a way for clearing up space in SBS. The only new information in there is apparently names and birthdays (someone said the DFs are just a list of fruits we already know). I don't know about the Haki stuff but it doesn't seem like it's going to be anything we don't already know. Pretty disappointing.

****ing called it;

The only relavent part of the databook was that interview probably. Im taking the rest with a massive pitcher of salt.

Though to be honest it seems even more disspointing then i thought it would be. Databooks aren't written by Oda, he probably has no input into them what so ever from the amount of crazy bullshit that has gotten into them in the past (Luffy surpassing Garp, Zoro equaling Luffy) and we should all know that by now.

Source:

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remove the space