“Why I favor Obito rejecting TnJ and deserving death”

[saw2097]

Uh...Obito is not a sadist. A sadist kills for the arousal of it. Every kill Obito has done has been because of obstacles on his way. It also seems people are not reading into it enough. If Obito knows about Izanagi and the perfected form known as Creation of All Things, then all these deaths are temporary. From his perspective he's not ruining anything since he plans to mend it all in the end. Still this takes a toll on a nice guy like him because he has to deal with the temporary pain he is causing people.

And nobody twisted Sasuke, he was already like that. Obito didn't even try to turn Sasuke on the village and let him have FREE CHOICE.

Obito never tried to destroy the village with the 9-tails since that would only slow down his Moon's Eye Plan. The real motive for Obito's attack was to cast doubts on the Uchiha and spur on the coup and their annihilation. He succeeded and gained countless Sharingan to help him on his quest to save the world.

You just made all of that up. You can't invent facts and use that to justify your argument.

Izanagi isn't a jutsu that brings thousands of people back to life, Obito has made it clear that he just intends to create illusions of the people he has killed and pretend they are real, if you want proof recheck the Obito and Kakashi fight in the other dimension.

Obito has been crystal clear about that, he never once said he would use Izanagi to resurrect people he has killed, nor can he as Izanagi only erases a short term event to allow a do over.

He and Kakashi argued over the idea that illusions are a legitimate replacement for real people.

Creating illusions of people and pretending they are real is the whole idea behind Infinite Tsukuyomi, trying to say otherwise is trying to change the story.

Obito tried to destroy the village for no apparent reason, the 9 tails would have killed everyone if it wasn't for Minato. The suspicion falling on the Uchiha clan was an unexpected consequence.

Obito is a satist, he was shown to enjoy watching Sasuke kill Karin, and he tried to psychologically torture Naruto throughout the battle because as he said he wanted to see someone else give up on life, he openly said he wanted to teach the Alliance true despair.

He also tested the Ten Tails power out by vaporizing a distant city killing thousands of people,

Yes he did twist Sasuke, he was the one who told Sasuke a twisted version of Madara and Itachi's history while leaving a great deal of facts out, and even replacing certain facts with lies. If you compare the version he told and the version of Uchiha history Hashirama told then you will see how much of Obito's story was bull.

If Obito was a real hero, he would try to convince people to follow him peacefully, not massacre everyone who disagrees with him.

And he created the Akatsuki an organization that's primary recruitment included mass murderers, for instance Sasori who makes people into puppets or Deidara a mad bomber.

Like I said before you can't invent facts to justify an argument, that is reserved for theory making not debates on justifying a characters actions.

I can say that Orochimaru plans to use his immortality research to resurrect everyone he has killed and give everyone immortality but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Tell, that to Loki from the Avengers, or the Emperor and Darth Vader from Star Wars, all of which wanted to bring peace as well, Darth Vader had a change of heart but does that change what he has done. I could name countless others all of who used the bring peace argument but still committed atrocities. In fact that's pretty much the justification most villains from books I read, and movies I watch.

Obito has redeemable qualities and a good side, that doesn't mean he isn't a villain.

He is a ruthless satist and has left an unbelievable body count.

A villain can have good traits, for instance the current villain in One Piece, Doflamingo, he is shown to care about his subordinates and shows doubt when they are in danger, but does that change what he has done or that he is a monster.

All villains have a way of backing up their actions, not all stories are like DBZ where the villain is a irredeemable monster, there are many villains who have good traits but they are still villains.

In Fable 2 the main villain wanted to make a paradise for everyone after his wife and child were killed, he destroyed countless lives but showed hesitation in killing children, but that doesn't change that he was a monster. Obito has not showed hesitation in killing children and took Naruto as a hostage the day he was born.

Edit: In fact Obito's story is exactly like Darth Vader's, they both wanted to bring peace and save someone they loved, both of them committed countless atrocities to achieve that goal. Darth Vader was redeemed in the end, but that doesn't change that he was a monster before so, Obito is following the same exact path, but that doesn't change that he was a villain.

Its called a Fallen Hero class villain, a villain who was one a good guy and generally has redeemable qualities, all of the villains in Naruto follow a stereo villain type.

For instance Madara is the evil Emperor, Orochimaru is the mad scientist, Nagato is the Anti-villain, while Obito is the Fallen hero.

Wrong again. If he has a good side, he is not a villain, he is an antagonist. Both villains and antagonist are against the means of the protagonist.

I gave you an insightful source that clears up the difference between angatonist and villain. It's up to you to take it or leave it. I'm done with this argument.

 

[saw2097]

I gave you an insightful source that clears up the difference between angatonist and villain. It's up to you to take it or leave it. I'm done with this argument.

I have given you examples that show other people who had similar stories to Obito, but they are still defined as villains.

Why should Obito be considered any differently then them.

 

[-Sky-]

What you and the Nagato fanboy want is a direct contradiction to the entire series thus far. Naruto killing an enemy out of spite is a horrible way for this to end.

 

[thunderthehybrid]

talk no jutsu is better than death

 

[Mr Hiru]

I have given you examples that show other people who had similar stories to Obito, but they are still defined as villains.

Why should Obito be considered any differently then them.

Nagato had a 'change of heart' when Naruto showed him the human's potential to forgive, Sasuke had a 'change of heart' when the former kages explained the true motives behind rotten acts on the history of the Uchiha, Zabuza revealed 'he had a soft side' after Naruto's questioning about Haku. Their deeds were not morally acceptable, but even so they did what they thought was right.

There are two main points I must highlight from the article, that are quite important.

• A villain keeps his state as villain, they have consciousness of their evil deeds and they don't change. His actions have the transversal purpose of reaching a greater evil, and solely with the final purpose of selfish self-satisfaction.
  • If you want a perfect example of villain inside Naruto, there is Gatō from part 1 who wanted money with his Gangsters, or Orochimaru himself who seeks for the truth of the world, only for his own self-satisfaction. They did never show any sign of doing things for the benefit of others.

• An antagonist has the potential to change his heart, they believe their deeds are for a greater good even if their deeds are not morally acceptable. More important, their means are usually opposite to the protagonist.
  • Examples? Zabuza, Nagato, Sasuke, Hanzou, Danzou.

About the Fallen Hero... you have Madara and Obito. A Fallen Hero is a gray area that doesn't quite define if a character is good or bad, hero or anti-hero. Being good or bad is a path an actor can take from this gray area. But whoever took the path of villain... if they escape at least once from there... it's because they were not villains from the start.

So answering your own question, I'll repeat what I said earlier, but with more detail

1. Obito has space for doubt
2. Obito believes he is doing this for greater good (the lesser evil)
3. Obito doesn't enjoy the act of suffering of others (cruelty)

That discards him as villain. But why is he still a bad guy?

1. He do things that are not morally right to reach greater good.
2. He act against the moral principles of the protagonist
3. He is morally the opposite to the protagonist

That's reason enough to consider him as an Antagonist.

 

[saw2097]

Nagato had a 'change of heart' when Naruto showed him the human's potential to forgive, Sasuke had a 'change of heart' when the former kages explained the true motives behind rotten acts on the history of the Uchiha, Zabuza revealed 'he had a soft side' after Naruto's questioning about Haku. Their deeds were not morally acceptable, but even so they did what they thought was right.

There are two main points I must highlight from the article, that are quite important.

• A villain keeps his state as villain, they have consciousness of their evil deeds and they don't change. His actions have the transversal purpose of reaching a greater evil, and solely with the final purpose of selfish self-satisfaction.
  • If you want a perfect example of villain inside Naruto, there is Gatō from part 1 who wanted money with his Gangsters, or Orochimaru himself who seeks for the truth of the world, only for his own self-satisfaction. They did never show any sign of doing things for the benefit of others.

• An antagonist has the potential to change his heart, they believe their deeds are for a greater good even if their deeds are not morally acceptable. More important, their means are usually opposite to the protagonist.
  • Examples? Zabuza, Nagato, Sasuke, Hanzou, Danzou.

About the Fallen Hero... you have Madara and Obito. A Fallen Hero is a gray area that doesn't quite define if a character is good or bad, hero or anti-hero. Being good or bad is a path an actor can take from this gray area. But whoever took the path of villain... if they escape at least once from there... it's because they were not villains from the start.

So answering your own question, I'll repeat what I said earlier, but with more detail

1. Obito has space for doubt
2. Obito believes he is doing this for greater good (the lesser evil)
3. Obito doesn't enjoy the act of suffering of others (cruelty)

That discards him as villain. But why is he still a bad guy?

1. He do things that are not morally right to reach greater good.
2. He act against the moral principles of the protagonist
3. He is morally the opposite to the protagonist

That's reason enough to consider him as an Antagonist.

That's a very narrow view of a villain, and as I have said before, Obito fits the same story as countless other villains from stories I have also read or watched on TV.

Star Wars, Fable 2, Fable 3, and etc. You haven't answered my post about the comparison to the other villains, Obito's story is pretty much an old one used by many other stories, all of which the character responsible was considered a villain.

Darth Vader is considered one of the greatest villains of all time, but he had a good side and he was redeemed in the end, he wanted to save his wife and bring peace to the galaxy, exactly as Obito wants to "save" Rin (at least in his own mind), and bring peace to the world. It was the same story in Fable 2, but the person responsible is still defined as a villain.

Heck even the Illusive Man from Mass Effect, he was trying to save lives with the sacrifice the few to save the many arguement, yet even his voice actor refers to him as a terrible man.

 

[Mr Hiru]

That's a very narrow view of a villain, and as I have said before, Obito fits the same story as countless other villains from stories I have also read or watched on TV.

Star Wars, Fable 2, Fable 3, and etc. You haven't answered my post about the comparison to the other villains, Obito's story is pretty much an old one used by many other stories, all of which the character responsible was considered a villain.

Darth Vader is considered one of the greatest villains of all time, but he had a good side and he was redeemed in the end, he wanted to save his wife and bring peace to the galaxy, exactly as Obito wants to "save" Rin (at least in his own mind), and bring peace to the world. It was the same story in Fable 2, but the person responsible is still defined as a villain.

Heck even the Illusive Man from Mass Effect, he was trying to save lives with the sacrifice the few to save the many arguement, yet even his voice actor refers to him as a terrible man.

Two conclusions emerged from this scenario. First, oppositional characters need not stay fixed in one state. Darth Vader does not remain a villain through the whole of the original Star Wars trilogy. In time, his role as villain is taken over by the Emperor, as he becomes an antagonist instead. The climax of Return of the Jedi heralds his final change. So, a villain is not always a villain, an antagonist is not always an antagonist, and honestly, a hero is not always a hero either, right? More importantly though, we begin to see the common thread here. Change.

A villain stands and falls by her convictions. Villains die, get locked away, tumble off buildings or into family-friendly Disney darkness still spitting their animosity. Billy’s screen time in Original Sin ends with the belief he’s about to win, he’s finally going to get the reward for all his hard work and sacrifice, and then–*bang*Antagonists change. When a character repents, switches sides, or a secret noble agenda is revealed, we confidently label them antagonists, because they weren’t the villain.
Even if they don’t join the protagonist’s side, however, they are still antagonists. They are the grey characters because their views can change. Their potential for revising morals makes them morality ambiguous. While they may not side with good by the end of the story, they may have simply broken sides with evil, and chosen to look out for Number One. If Catwoman sides with Batman, it’s only because it’s in her own interests. In the next installment, she’ll likely be the problem again.
Antagonists can change, like anyone else, which can make them sometimes seem lesser. They might one day become good guys, so they don’t seem like true enemies.
Villains don’t change, so they’re not like anyone else, which makes them seem like caricatures. They can wind up straight and simple evil, without the depth and realism they deserve.

The author of that article touched that scheme. What defines how people are is how they die, and Darth Vader, even if he was considered one of the greatest villains of all time, he died as a good guy, and that only means he was an Antagonist.

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Now, I know there are different layers that could define a kind of villain. We have the Anti-Villains, Obito could even match that kind, but there is a problem...

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.

In the other hand, a Hero Antagonist would do good to humanity, even if they have to

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on the scheme. In this case, reversed. He thinks Naruto's way is wrong and freedom would spell doom for the world: The Cycle of Hatred would continue.

 

[saw2097]

The author of that article touched that scheme. What defines how people are is how they die, and Darth Vader, even if he was considered one of the greatest villains of all time, he died as a good guy, and that only means he was an Antagonist.

---

Now, I know there are different layers that could define a kind of villain. We have the Anti-Villains, Obito could even match that kind, but there is a problem...

You must be registered for see links

.

In the other hand, a Hero Antagonist would do good to humanity, even if they have to

You must be registered for see links

on the scheme. In this case, reversed. He thinks Naruto's way is wrong and freedom would spell doom for the world: The Cycle of Hatred would continue.

We are not getting anywere.

Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[Mr Hiru]

We are not getting anywere.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

 

[Senju Bean]

It's hard to say. Obito deserves death but at the same time, one of the main themes of Naruto is that he can save people from darkness. But also, if the manga is any bit moral, Obito will receive punishment. Ever seen the Godfather movies? In the end, the main villain lost, out of necessity. Even Darth Vader had to die. No way Obito get's forgiven.

 

[Draw]

Obito took a one minute old hostage, killed more people then any other character in the entire manga, manipulated countless others, twisted Sasuke into a bloodthirsty killer, tried to destroy the Hidden Leaf Village with the 9 tails, and destroyed a city with the Ten Tails just to show off its power, oh and he wants to strip every person in the world of their free will, that isn't heroic, that's as far from heroic as it gets.

That is villainous, Obito is a villain with redeemable qualities.

antagonist means someone who is against the main character, obito's ideals are good to him and he only has the best in thought but his ideals go against narutos which is the only reasons he is an antagonist its not like he views himself as the villain he views everyone in humanity as evil theyre the villains

 

[aimop95]

I'm quite serious.....the naruto plot has suffered a deep wound with the reveal of the masked man and since then has been bleeding out rapidly. It's a shame to see such an enjoyable series transform into fairytail's ugly cousin........

Also, Naruto reads a lot better in the big picture frame, not in small segments.

Going back 30-40 chapters and reading straight through reminds me that there is a lot of BIG picture progression going on.

Unlike One Piece, which really doesn't have a big picture, more just like a Calvin and Hobbs type of adventure story (which is perfectly fine). I highly doubt anyone wants Luffy to reach the One Piece because it would be so anti-climatic.

 

[thegame]

However, IMO Obito has to be TnJ'd. It's quite simple. The manga is coming to an end. If Naruto is to succeed, what Jiraya wanted him to do, namely find a future, where people understand one another. A future of peace, and no hatred. A future, where people can forgive eachother. Then truly the manga can end in the correct way.

As I see it, this can only be obtained, if Obito is TnJ'd, and that the entire shinobi alliance forgives him. Who has caused them more hatred than Obito? Nobody even comes close. So if Obito is forgiven, they can forgive anyone in the future as well.

So to me it's not really about, what people deserve, or what the fans want (me included). It's about creating an ending, that makes sense for the entire plot of the story, namely ending the endless cycle of hatred.