“Why I favor Obito rejecting TnJ and deserving death”

[Kadmos1]

In the Naruto Forums thread, "Obito won't be TNJ'd (Big Ol' Essay), Kaix responds to SharkBomb4 's long OP:

A major factor is that differentiates Nagato and Obito is that Nagato wanted real world peace. He was convinced that only a twisted mixture of fear and pain could bring about temporary peace repeatedly. It may take a lot to sway him, and I found his conversion appropriate, but he can be converted if he can be made to believe there is a better way. Nagato never struck me as someone who wanted his outcome, but rather someone who considered it the lesser of two evils. What I'm trying to say is that Nagato would happily choose painless peace if he could be convinced that forgiveness and understanding could be reached, which is what Naruto showed him, forgiveness and understanding.

Obito, however, considers reality to have inherent flaws, such as the ability for Rin, and presumably other people, to die. Not that they do die because of war, but that the forces that govern the universe, such as gravity and electromagnetism, allow Rin to die. You can't easily correct that because his understanding is that the universe itself is flawed. Nagato's perspective was that humans were flawed, but humans can change, no matter how unlikely and improbable it is an accepted possibility for anyone to become a saint and therefore everyone could conceivably become one. The only remaining question is how do you change everyone? For Obito's outlook, you can't change the laws and forces of the universe. You can work around them, or add on to them, but it is impossible to change them and so he needs to create a Tsukuyomi universe in which the laws and forces agree with him.

If this is the case, then regardless of your opinion on Nagato's conversion, it was entirely possible that he could be converted, given time and reason. He actually preferred Naruto's wide eyed idealism, but he found it naive and impossible. The only thing Naruto needed to do was convince him it was somehow possible, which he did, by not choosing to kill him. Obito, on the other hand, needs to have his whole identity rewritten because it cannot coexist with reality. Either it goes or he does. This doesn't mean that he can't be converted, but it would take more than a slight change in belief.

On Obito being trash, Melas mentions that

There isn't even the tinest chance that the trash known as Obito won't be TnJ'd and he will not beg and cry about his mistakes.

This utter trash has constantly blamed everyone else for all that has befallen him and not taken responsibility himself. To simply end him without repudiating such nonsense would be absurd.

The trash needs to learn that merely because things do not go as you wish for them to, you don't ***** and rave like a lunatic and try to enslave humanity.

He is trash and in this manga trash tends to get cleansed before it is flushed down. What precise form that cleansing takes and whether you call it TnJ or not is merely semantics.

It is with these points that I feel that Nagato was more deserving of redemption* and Obito deserves death (another reason is my Nagato fanboy side and the fact that Nagato's "punishment" was him dying of chakra exhaustion using Rinne Tensei. Heck, as he's doing it, Nagato said that's the least he could do).

Reasons why I feel Obito should be killed:
-I liked the Kakashi Gaiden Obito better because he was a good guy though his definitely had a Naruto personality,
-Corresponds to what it takes to be Hokage.

Spoiler

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(I love that scene because it's nice to see a moment when Madara actually shows fear of defeat and death. I wish Edo Madara showed more fear of defeat because if he was truly a smart villain, though his arrogance and proud likely blind it, he would realize that maybe he could be defeated)

-Melas mentions that:

There isn't even the tinest chance that the trash known as Obito won't be TnJ'd and he will not beg and cry about his mistakes.

This utter trash has constantly blamed everyone else for all that has befallen him and not taken responsibility himself. To simply end him without repudiating such nonsense would be absurd.

The trash needs to learn that merely because things do not go as you wish for them to, you don't ***** and rave like a lunatic and try to enslave humanity.

He is trash and in this manga trash tends to get cleansed before it is flushed down. What precise form that cleansing takes and whether you call it TnJ or not is merely semantics.

This goes with Obito following his quote that those that abandon their comrades are worse than trash.

-If I were Naruto, the fact that someone unleashed the Kyuubi on the village that attacked my village and meant that my father had to seal ⅓ of it inside of me which resulted in me being shunned and branded a monster, I would kill Obito.

-There are times that even though a person does their best to to reason with an enemy that the enemy is doing a wrong approach approach, an enemy’s stubbornness (possibly mixed with their arrogance) is so strong that the only way for them to learn is their death.

-I want to see more of Naruto carrying out his want to kill an enemy.
-If he truly loved Rin like we’ve been shown, I think that conflicting with his evil side would be a “What would Rin think of this?” thought.

Your thoughts?

*I find it interesting that Vic Mignogna, Nagato’s English voice, also did Kakashi Gaiden and NUNS 2 Obit

 

[markdabomb22]

I hate where kishi has taken obito..........honestly he should die so that i can be spared from this shity plot and so we can move onto the next conflict if any......

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

How the fvck did nobody see this coming. He might still die saving the world or some shit but the fact that he was gonna get TNJ'd was very likely.

 

[Corgi]

I hate where kishi has taken obito..........honestly he should die so that i can be spared from this shity plot and so we can move onto the next conflict if any......

Get out, troll.

 

[Gaara Of The Death]

Get out, troll.

One does not simply, call markdabomb a troll.

 

[Champ]

Obito has done to much fcked up shit to not be killed in the end

 

[markdabomb22]

Get out, troll.

I'm quite serious.....the naruto plot has suffered a deep wound with the reveal of the masked man and since then has been bleeding out rapidly. It's a shame to see such an enjoyable series transform into fairytail's ugly cousin........

 

[mikeeozua]

I'm quite serious.....the naruto plot has suffered a deep wound with the reveal of the masked man and since then has been bleeding out rapidly. It's a shame to see such an enjoyable series transform into fairytail's ugly cousin........

Obito's reveal has deterred the series, but there are other factors which have rendered Naruto lackluster.

 

[Orochimagus]

My thoughts is that you don't give things enough thought.

Your point on Naruto killing Obito is the equivalent on telling Naruto to change his ninja way. He is not the type to kill or to be vengeful. That part is filled by Sasuke. By you turning the ideal Naruto into your weak-willed version that falls into his hatred you are trying to change and ruin the character. In fact, if the series is about the current genereation surpassing the past one, then think about it...

Hashirama Senju had a good will and was not the type to kill those he cared about. With time he ended up giving up on his ninja way of a world of understanding and caved into his baser needs. His ideology changed to that of a view of a ninja doing anything to protect his village (Including murdering your very own children if you have to). This led to the mentality followed by the likes of Danzo which also led into some greater issues that created the state of the world. In the end Hashirama changing into your views ended up causing more problems.

One of Naruto's strengths is being able to have empathy for anyone he meets and unlike you he actually cares for pain, trauma, and brainwashing Obito went through. Don't change Naruto and turn him into an average joe for the sage's sake.

As for the Obito deal...To be honest, I mostly agree with what he is doing. The situation is more complex than what the average reader understands or cares to understand. First off comes Obito's true motives. This is more of a theory but one that has been hinted to a few times and has some support.

Obito's plans: Based on how Obito has mentioned illusion, reality, the Sage, Izanagi, and Creation of All Things I think his version of Moon's Eye Plan varies from Madara's. Madara plans to Genjutsu everyone and unite them to the God Tree to gain world peace through full erradication. Obito's plan is far more noble. Obito plans to unify everyone's mind into one with the Genjutsu, then use Creation of All Things to change reality itself and create a near ideal world where there will be no need for ninja. Hence "I will destroy the way of the ninja!"

With this comes the question on if Obito is a villain. No he is most definitely not. Look at Creation of All Things as a perfect form of Izanagi. Danzo technically died against Sasuke several times but reality was changed so that it did not happen. In this case Obito can do this to a greater extent and revive everyone who unwittingly got in his way during his attempts at mending the world. This means anyone he happened to lance with a black pipe, neck-snap etc will just be brought back to life in the end. This is why Obito said that wether Kakashi dies or lives is of no consequence since he can just undo all that. In Obito's perspective anyone he's killing is but a temporary death.

Despite how he knows that he's doing this for the best, Obito is still a kindly person and still feels bad for the killing he does along the way so the mask also became a security blanket for him. Behind a mask he could veil his kindly self more easily and deal with his inner turmoil. What happens if he fails? Then all those deaths become a reality and he ended up ruining lives. If he succeeds the opposite happens.

As Obito said, he is going above and beyond the responsibilities of a Hokage. Rather than being self-centered and worrying only about their own village he plans to save the world. The freedoms the average person claims to value so much come at the cost of the suffering of others and in the end all we do is abuse our freedoms with sheer irresponsibility. In both the Naruto world and in the real world there are countless people dying of hunger without any tangible way out. People (including children) being tortured and murdered. Those people never receive justice and never had a chance. The reason most people are okay with this is because they are not in the most dire of situations. Either you have a relatively good life or a slightly messed up one but most people here behind a computer are not in the situation of a child in Africa slowly dying of malnutrition and preventable disease. If you were placed in that situation I am sure the average person would change the world if they could. By being a confomist and maintaining the world the way it is you're actually murdering (Or at least indirectly enabling the murders.) people. Obito is here to break the cycle and as such is the true hero here while the rest are unwittingly the villains. He is shouldering the weight of the world's problems along with the hatred that comes with it like a true trooper.

 

[iKaras]

What is the line for this manga? And why hasn't anyone crossed it?

 

[aimop95]

I'm quite serious.....the naruto plot has suffered a deep wound with the reveal of the masked man and since then has been bleeding out rapidly. It's a shame to see such an enjoyable series transform into fairytail's ugly cousin........

Since when did FairyTail have "excellent writing"? Now I read FairyTail and I love it, but not for it's story, but for the laughs I get out of it (also fan-service).

 

[Draxus]

Nice thread but the only problem is that Obito accepting TNJ and Obito deserving death are NOT mutually exclusive. Both things can happen.

Since when did FairyTail have "excellent writing"? Now I read FairyTail and I love it, but not for it's story, but for the laughs I get out of it (also fan-service).

That was his point. He's saying Naruto's story isn't good anymore and it's more akin to FairyTail.

 

[elxdark]

My thoughts is that you don't give things enough thought.

Your point on Naruto killing Obito is the equivalent on telling Naruto to change his ninja way. He is not the type to kill or to be vengeful. That part is filled by Sasuke. By you turning the ideal Naruto into your weak-willed version that falls into his hatred you are trying to change and ruin the character. In fact, if the series is about the current genereation surpassing the past one, then think about it...

Hashirama Senju had a good will and was not the type to kill those he cared about. With time he ended up giving up on his ninja way of a world of understanding and caved into his baser needs. His ideology changed to that of a view of a ninja doing anything to protect his village (Including murdering your very own children if you have to). This led to the mentality followed by the likes of Danzo which also led into some greater issues that created the state of the world. In the end Hashirama changing into your views ended up causing more problems.

One of Naruto's strengths is being able to have empathy for anyone he meets and unlike you he actually cares for pain, trauma, and brainwashing Obito went through. Don't change Naruto and turn him into an average joe for the sage's sake.

As for the Obito deal...To be honest, I mostly agree with what he is doing. The situation is more complex than what the average reader understands or cares to understand. First off comes Obito's true motives. This is more of a theory but one that has been hinted to a few times and has some support.

Obito's plans: Based on how Obito has mentioned illusion, reality, the Sage, Izanagi, and Creation of All Things I think his version of Moon's Eye Plan varies from Madara's. Madara plans to Genjutsu everyone and unite them to the God Tree to gain world peace through full erradication. Obito's plan is far more noble. Obito plans to unify everyone's mind into one with the Genjutsu, then use Creation of All Things to change reality itself and create a near ideal world where there will be no need for ninja. Hence "I will destroy the way of the ninja!"

With this comes the question on if Obito is a villain. No he is most definitely not. Look at Creation of All Things as a perfect form of Izanagi. Danzo technically died against Sasuke several times but reality was changed so that it did not happen. In this case Obito can do this to a greater extent and revive everyone who unwittingly got in his way during his attempts at mending the world. This means anyone he happened to lance with a black pipe, neck-snap etc will just be brought back to life in the end. This is why Obito said that wether Kakashi dies or lives is of no consequence since he can just undo all that. In Obito's perspective anyone he's killing is but a temporary death.

Despite how he knows that he's doing this for the best, Obito is still a kindly person and still feels bad for the killing he does along the way so the mask also became a security blanket for him. Behind a mask he could veil his kindly self more easily and deal with his inner turmoil. What happens if he fails? Then all those deaths become a reality and he ended up ruining lives. If he succeeds the opposite happens.

As Obito said, he is going above and beyond the responsibilities of a Hokage. Rather than being self-centered and worrying only about their own village he plans to save the world. The freedoms the average person claims to value so much come at the cost of the suffering of others and in the end all we do is abuse our freedoms with sheer irresponsibility. In both the Naruto world and in the real world there are countless people dying of hunger without any tangible way out. People (including children) being tortured and murdered. Those people never receive justice and never had a chance. The reason most people are okay with this is because they are not in the most dire of situations. Either you have a relatively good life or a slightly messed up one but most people here behind a computer are not in the situation of a child in Africa slowly dying of malnutrition and preventable disease. If you were placed in that situation I am sure the average person would change the world if they could. By being a confomist and maintaining the world the way it is you're actually murdering (Or at least indirectly enabling the murders.) people. Obito is here to break the cycle and as such is the true hero here while the rest are unwittingly the villains. He is shouldering the weight of the world's problems along with the hatred that comes with it like a true trooper.

THIS.

Well said friend.

 

[saw2097]

There is no question that Obito deserves to die for what he has done. But the message of the manga is that everyone is redeemable and that we should never give up.

Besides being TNJ does not equal surviving the manga, I have no doubt in my mind that Obito will die regardless of whether he is TNJ or not.

 

[Mr Hiru]

My thoughts is that you don't give things enough thought.

Your point on Naruto killing Obito is the equivalent on telling Naruto to change his ninja way. He is not the type to kill or to be vengeful. That part is filled by Sasuke. By you turning the ideal Naruto into your weak-willed version that falls into his hatred you are trying to change and ruin the character. In fact, if the series is about the current genereation surpassing the past one, then think about it...

Hashirama Senju had a good will and was not the type to kill those he cared about. With time he ended up giving up on his ninja way of a world of understanding and caved into his baser needs. His ideology changed to that of a view of a ninja doing anything to protect his village (Including murdering your very own children if you have to). This led to the mentality followed by the likes of Danzo which also led into some greater issues that created the state of the world. In the end Hashirama changing into your views ended up causing more problems.

One of Naruto's strengths is being able to have empathy for anyone he meets and unlike you he actually cares for pain, trauma, and brainwashing Obito went through. Don't change Naruto and turn him into an average joe for the sage's sake.

As for the Obito deal...To be honest, I mostly agree with what he is doing. The situation is more complex than what the average reader understands or cares to understand. First off comes Obito's true motives. This is more of a theory but one that has been hinted to a few times and has some support.

Obito's plans: Based on how Obito has mentioned illusion, reality, the Sage, Izanagi, and Creation of All Things I think his version of Moon's Eye Plan varies from Madara's. Madara plans to Genjutsu everyone and unite them to the God Tree to gain world peace through full erradication. Obito's plan is far more noble. Obito plans to unify everyone's mind into one with the Genjutsu, then use Creation of All Things to change reality itself and create a near ideal world where there will be no need for ninja. Hence "I will destroy the way of the ninja!"

With this comes the question on if Obito is a villain. No he is most definitely not. Look at Creation of All Things as a perfect form of Izanagi. Danzo technically died against Sasuke several times but reality was changed so that it did not happen. In this case Obito can do this to a greater extent and revive everyone who unwittingly got in his way during his attempts at mending the world. This means anyone he happened to lance with a black pipe, neck-snap etc will just be brought back to life in the end. This is why Obito said that wether Kakashi dies or lives is of no consequence since he can just undo all that. In Obito's perspective anyone he's killing is but a temporary death.

Despite how he knows that he's doing this for the best, Obito is still a kindly person and still feels bad for the killing he does along the way so the mask also became a security blanket for him. Behind a mask he could veil his kindly self more easily and deal with his inner turmoil. What happens if he fails? Then all those deaths become a reality and he ended up ruining lives. If he succeeds the opposite happens.

As Obito said, he is going above and beyond the responsibilities of a Hokage. Rather than being self-centered and worrying only about their own village he plans to save the world. The freedoms the average person claims to value so much come at the cost of the suffering of others and in the end all we do is abuse our freedoms with sheer irresponsibility. In both the Naruto world and in the real world there are countless people dying of hunger without any tangible way out. People (including children) being tortured and murdered. Those people never receive justice and never had a chance. The reason most people are okay with this is because they are not in the most dire of situations. Either you have a relatively good life or a slightly messed up one but most people here behind a computer are not in the situation of a child in Africa slowly dying of malnutrition and preventable disease. If you were placed in that situation I am sure the average person would change the world if they could. By being a confomist and maintaining the world the way it is you're actually murdering (Or at least indirectly enabling the murders.) people. Obito is here to break the cycle and as such is the true hero here while the rest are unwittingly the villains. He is shouldering the weight of the world's problems along with the hatred that comes with it like a true trooper.

I applaud you sir. I believe Obito is an "antagonist".

 

[Xlad]

My thoughts is that you don't give things enough thought.

Spoiler

Your point on Naruto killing Obito is the equivalent on telling Naruto to change his ninja way. He is not the type to kill or to be vengeful. That part is filled by Sasuke. By you turning the ideal Naruto into your weak-willed version that falls into his hatred you are trying to change and ruin the character. In fact, if the series is about the current genereation surpassing the past one, then think about it...

Hashirama Senju had a good will and was not the type to kill those he cared about. With time he ended up giving up on his ninja way of a world of understanding and caved into his baser needs. His ideology changed to that of a view of a ninja doing anything to protect his village (Including murdering your very own children if you have to). This led to the mentality followed by the likes of Danzo which also led into some greater issues that created the state of the world. In the end Hashirama changing into your views ended up causing more problems.

One of Naruto's strengths is being able to have empathy for anyone he meets and unlike you he actually cares for pain, trauma, and brainwashing Obito went through. Don't change Naruto and turn him into an average joe for the sage's sake.

Spoiler

As for the Obito deal...To be honest, I mostly agree with what he is doing. The situation is more complex than what the average reader understands or cares to understand. First off comes Obito's true motives. This is more of a theory but one that has been hinted to a few times and has some support.

Obito's plans: Based on how Obito has mentioned illusion, reality, the Sage, Izanagi, and Creation of All Things I think his version of Moon's Eye Plan varies from Madara's. Madara plans to Genjutsu everyone and unite them to the God Tree to gain world peace through full erradication. Obito's plan is far more noble. Obito plans to unify everyone's mind into one with the Genjutsu, then use Creation of All Things to change reality itself and create a near ideal world where there will be no need for ninja. Hence "I will destroy the way of the ninja!"

With this comes the question on if Obito is a villain. No he is most definitely not. Look at Creation of All Things as a perfect form of Izanagi. Danzo technically died against Sasuke several times but reality was changed so that it did not happen. In this case Obito can do this to a greater extent and revive everyone who unwittingly got in his way during his attempts at mending the world. This means anyone he happened to lance with a black pipe, neck-snap etc will just be brought back to life in the end. This is why Obito said that wether Kakashi dies or lives is of no consequence since he can just undo all that. In Obito's perspective anyone he's killing is but a temporary death.

Despite how he knows that he's doing this for the best, Obito is still a kindly person and still feels bad for the killing he does along the way so the mask also became a security blanket for him. Behind a mask he could veil his kindly self more easily and deal with his inner turmoil. What happens if he fails? Then all those deaths become a reality and he ended up ruining lives. If he succeeds the opposite happens.

Spoiler

As Obito said, he is going above and beyond the responsibilities of a Hokage. Rather than being self-centered and worrying only about their own village he plans to save the world. The freedoms the average person claims to value so much come at the cost of the suffering of others and in the end all we do is abuse our freedoms with sheer irresponsibility. In both the Naruto world and in the real world there are countless people dying of hunger without any tangible way out. People (including children) being tortured and murdered. Those people never receive justice and never had a chance. The reason most people are okay with this is because they are not in the most dire of situations. Either you have a relatively good life or a slightly messed up one but most people here behind a computer are not in the situation of a child in Africa slowly dying of malnutrition and preventable disease. If you were placed in that situation I am sure the average person would change the world if they could. By being a confomist and maintaining the world the way it is you're actually murdering (Or at least indirectly enabling the murders.) people. Obito is here to break the cycle and as such is the true hero here while the rest are unwittingly the villains. He is shouldering the weight of the world's problems along with the hatred that comes with it like a true trooper.

This is basically a thread on its own, you know that? Very well thought out post on your part.

 

[saw2097]

I applaud you sir. I believe Obito is an "antagonist".

Obito took a one minute old hostage, killed more people then any other character in the entire manga, manipulated countless others, twisted Sasuke into a bloodthirsty killer, tried to destroy the Hidden Leaf Village with the 9 tails, and destroyed a city with the Ten Tails just to show off its power, oh and he wants to strip every person in the world of their free will, that isn't heroic, that's as far from heroic as it gets.

That is villainous, Obito is a villain with redeemable qualities.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Obito took a one minute old hostage, killed more people then any other character in the entire manga, manipulated countless others, twisted Sasuke into a bloodthirsty killer, tried to destroy the Hidden Leaf Village with the 9 tails, and destroyed a city with the Ten Tails just to show off its power, oh and he wants to strip every person in the world of their free will, that isn't heroic, that's as far from heroic as it gets.

That is villainous, Obito is a villain with redeemable qualities.

False. A villain doesn't have space for doubt. That's one of the main features of a villain, and Obito is having doubts.

Do you want a true villain? There is Orochimaru.

In a well developed story, both protagonist and antagonist usually seeks for a common objective (Naruto and Obito seeks for peace), and the difference between protagonist and antagonist is the mean used to reach this objective (Naruto wants to do it with freedom, Obito wants to do it with control).

Obito is being TnJ'ed, and TnJ is having obvious effects. That only means Obito was an antagonist from the start.

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[saw2097]

False. A villain doesn't have space for doubt. That's one of the main features of a villain, and Obito is having doubts.

Do you want a true villain? There is Orochimaru.

In a well developed story, both protagonist and antagonist usually seeks for a common objective (Naruto and Obito seeks for peace), and the difference between protagonist and antagonist is the mean used to reach this objective (Naruto wants to do it with freedom, Obito wants to do it with control).

Obito is being TnJ'ed, and TnJ is having obvious effects. That only means Obito was an antagonist from the start.

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Tell, that to Loki from the Avengers, or the Emperor and Darth Vader from Star Wars, all of which wanted to bring peace as well, Darth Vader had a change of heart but does that change what he has done. I could name countless others all of who used the bring peace argument but still committed atrocities. In fact that's pretty much the justification most villains from books I read, and movies I watch.

Obito has redeemable qualities and a good side, that doesn't mean he isn't a villain.

He is a ruthless satist and has left an unbelievable body count.

A villain can have good traits, for instance the current villain in One Piece, Doflamingo, he is shown to care about his subordinates and shows doubt when they are in danger, but does that change what he has done or that he is a monster.

All villains have a way of backing up their actions, not all stories are like DBZ where the villain is a irredeemable monster, there are many villains who have good traits but they are still villains.

In Fable 2 the main villain wanted to make a paradise for everyone after his wife and child were killed, he destroyed countless lives but showed hesitation in killing children, but that doesn't change that he was a monster. Obito has not showed hesitation in killing children and took Naruto as a hostage the day he was born.

Edit: In fact Obito's story is exactly like Darth Vader's, they both wanted to bring peace and save someone they loved, both of them committed countless atrocities to achieve that goal. Darth Vader was redeemed in the end, but that doesn't change that he was a monster before so, Obito is following the same exact path, but that doesn't change that he was a villain.

Its called a Fallen Hero class villain, a villain who was one a good guy and generally has redeemable qualities, all of the villains in Naruto follow a stereo villain type.

For instance Madara is the evil Emperor, Orochimaru is the mad scientist, Nagato is the Anti-villain, while Obito is the Fallen hero.

 

[Orochimagus]

Uh...Obito is not a sadist. A sadist kills for the arousal of it. Every kill Obito has done has been because of obstacles on his way. It also seems people are not reading into it enough. If Obito knows about Izanagi and the perfected form known as Creation of All Things, then all these deaths are temporary. From his perspective he's not ruining anything since he plans to mend it all in the end. Still this takes a toll on a nice guy like him because he has to deal with the temporary pain he is causing people.

And nobody twisted Sasuke, he was already like that. Obito didn't even try to turn Sasuke on the village and let him have FREE CHOICE.

Obito never tried to destroy the village with the 9-tails since that would only slow down his Moon's Eye Plan. The real motive for Obito's attack was to cast doubts on the Uchiha and spur on the coup and their annihilation. He succeeded and gained countless Sharingan to help him on his quest to save the world.