[Question] Teach vs Fujitora

[24 12 11 to troll]

There is virtually nobody that easy diffs an Admiral, the only exception I can think of is Whitebeard and even that is debatable.

Old Whitebeard mid-high diffs so I doubt he'd even easy diff in his prime.

 

[Kuzan]

Old Whitebeard mid-high diffs so I doubt he'd even easy diff in his prime.

Exactly, saying BB easy diffs Fujitora is ridicilous.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Exactly, saying BB easy diffs Fujitora is ridicilous.

He wins by a slim margin.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

There is virtually nobody that easy diffs an Admiral, the only exception I can think of is Whitebeard and even that is debatable.

I was leaning more to mid diff tbh.
But lets be realistic. We cant say for sure until we have seen more of Issho.
I mean, at least with Teach we know his DF names =D

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I was leaning more to mid diff tbh.
But lets be realistic. We cant say for sure until we have seen more of Issho.
I mean, at least with Teach we know his DF names =D

Isshou could pull down meteor showers and elevate things or create gravity shields etc. which reflect anything that hits it... Even then BB wins.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

Isshou could pull down meteor showers and elevate things or create gravity shields etc. which reflect anything that hits it... Even then BB wins.

Ohh, I missed that chapter where it explained his power.
Link me? =D
But ye. Teach wins.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Ohh, I missed that chapter where it explained his power.
Link me? =D
But ye. Teach wins.

By "Could" I meant the possibilities. He's already shown a shield like power reflecting rubble from him.

 

[Hexuze]

Teach loool.

But fujitora shouldn't be underestimated though, he brought a meteor and he was merely testing his abilities. (So he claims)

 

[Hijey]

I'm not sure what you guys(rinne/zigg) are debating about cause I cba to read those text of walls. I think I saw somewhere there that BB would have an easy fight against the admirals when he cancels their fruits? He shouldn't and wouldn't because the admirals would still have their top tier physical abilities and haki which is you must have to reach the top. Furthermore, they all should be extremely sufficient at using the marine's main combat fighting - rokushiki. When Luffy fights Blackbeard, he should be able to counter him whenever he can't use his df using haki.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

@Hijey
I've been saying that even though BB is Admiral tier he would stomp Sakuzaki,Kuzan and Borsalino.
They don't have to be good at using Rokushiki either ; they just have to know a couple of techniques which they will have abandoned by now.

Just because all Vice Admirals and above can use Rokushiki doesn't automatically make the Admirals good at Rokushiki. BB would still (even if he gets a lovely Shigan or Rankyaku to the chest or something) use the Goro Goro no Mi and pretty much fvck them up. Ranged combat : Yami Yami no Mi absorbs everything ; Lasers,Magma and Ice would be absorbed and spurted back out with Liberation. If they weren't so dependant on their devil fruits (we haven't seen them use a single attack without the use of their fruits) then they would fair off better against BB. I still think they wouldn't know what to do without their devil fruits as they probably spent their whole life from the point of eating a fruit to now training in usage of their fruit.

 

[Netferarri]

Teach win's as of right now

You must be registered for see images

 

[David1996]

Teach is on a fleet admiral level, he'd murder any admiral.

 

[ziggyZ]

Which is exactly why Akainu was clearly able to nullify Whitebeards fruit just in time before he punches him with the force of an earthquake tearing apart Marineford...

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Check Akainu's reaction time; clearly he didn't have time to actually focus his Haki.

They were all Magma fists... Same technique ; simply a different scale of attack.

Nonetheless, the variations are still greater than what Fujitora has showed.

Uhh... no he didn't?

Mmm, now that I think about it; he didn't huh?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

They were incapable of doing it individually. Otherwise Akainu wouldn't have lost to Whitebeard.

Because WB never came from behind and Akainu had all the time in the world to prepare for a fight, and not getting man-handled straight from the get-go.

The impact was too great to block and therefore Akainu was incapable of single handedly stopping Shirohige.

As I pointed out, if Akainu had prep-time, he could defend against it. But he never didn't have the sufficient time to concentrate.

By your logic admirals are on par with the Yonkou.

No, by my logic, Akainu is equal to or an Emperor.

You simply express extreme hate for him.

Yeah, 'cause not only isn't he my 4th fav character, but I also hate fictitious characters since they bear no relevance to my existence, seeing as they're just a figment of someone's imagination. Quite right.

They were enemies. Of course they went all out ; otherwise they would not be deserving of their Admiral rank.

So everything that all the characters who fought their enemy showed at the 'War of the Best' was their full-power, meaning Doffy's full-power was cutting Oars' leg, just like Garp's full-power was the punch he delivered to Marco?

Pretty sure you're saying this for arguments sake as you previously said that Marco was admiral tier , but now you're saying he's not. Be honest during a debate otherwise it's a sign you're losing.

Pretty sure I never said Marco was anything but Admiral-class in any of my post which reference him.

I'm saying they're not skilled in combat without their devil fruits. Which is why if they even touch Teach they will lose.

But that's not true. Because to be a VA, you need to be well-versed in one form of Haki. Which means an Admiral would definitely no how to fight without their DF's. And if that's not what you think, then you're truly underestimating an Admiral, so much so that by your arguments, Zoro could defeat one.

Busoshoku Haki: To strengthen his abilities. Harden his strings so they can cut. Kenboshoku haki needs no explanation.

And an Admiral can increase the brute force of their DF. For example: Aokiji increasing the strength of his ice.

Actually it's not as simple as that ; she has to apply her ability. She uses her Haki to hit Logia users (like she did against Smoker)

A Logia can't hit another Logia without Haki, meaning the Admirals (albeit they have OP DF's), need to have strong CoA, otherwise they won't fight well against a fellow Logia.

He would need to strengthen his blade to amplify his attacks? To hit Logia fruit users? So that Haki using swordsman don't cut through Yoru... Isn't that obvious? He clearly (going by logic) has incredible haki. He taught Zoro Busoshoku haki (even if this wasn't mentioned we can indirectly figure since he used it against Monet).

Huh? The only reason I posted those comments was to show how redundant your claim is. So the fact that you went to this trouble to post that, suggests that you don't even understand what you've been implying this entire time.

Depends actually. Ice can be present at 0 Kelvin. The coldest temperature possible.

Learn about the properties of Ice.

Fact remains, Akainu could increase his magma to be able to burn ice, why? Because at the end of the day, magma>ice.

Because there were so many fighters ; every time. Somebody intervened. TA-DAH!

Not sure if you have a point or not...

Actually I'm basing this off the fact the Admirals show no combat skills without their devil fruits.

Duh, 'cause they've yet to show an all-out fight.

Paramecia and Zoan users would be better suited for fighting Blackbeard as their body remains the same as their original form.

No it wouldn't. Because their bodies are ultimately influenced by DF power. Therefore (according to your logic), no one with a DF should be able to beat him.

You're wrong. All there is for Luffy to do is power up to a Yonkous level in strength by increasing his Haki.

Well I'm not, lol. Since you're referring to my speculation. Also, you've contradicted yourself here. Why? Because all this time, I've been saying that Haki-mastery will allow anyone with a DF to beat BB, but you've been arguing that if they possess a DF, they're screwed - no matter which way you look at it. However, now you say if Luffy masters his Haki, he'll be able to beat him, which is exactly what I've been claiming through this entire debate.
So please, choose one stand-point.

 

[ziggyZ]

I'm not sure what you guys(rinne/zigg) are debating about cause I cba to read those text of walls. I think I saw somewhere there that BB would have an easy fight against the admirals when he cancels their fruits? He shouldn't and wouldn't because the admirals would still have their top tier physical abilities and haki which is you must have to reach the top. Furthermore, they all should be extremely sufficient at using the marine's main combat fighting - rokushiki. When Luffy fights Blackbeard, he should be able to counter him whenever he can't use his df using haki.

And this ignited the foundation of our debate. Where I believe Akainu will win due to being a monster in Haki; whereas he thinks he'll get "stomped" because BB cancels out DF's.

Teach is on a fleet admiral level, he'd murder any admiral.

1. You do comprehend that the power-levels of an Admiral and a FA are one-and-the-same, correct? The difference is in status and power-in-authority.
2. Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[VongolaX]

Yonkou status Blackbeard Teach, that just finish taking multiple peopl'es devil fruit in the new world :|

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Check Akainu's reaction time; clearly he didn't have time to actually focus his Haki.

Haki appears to be instantaneous from what we've seen so far.

Nonetheless, the variations are still greater than what Fujitora has showed.

Isshou has shown:
-Pulling down a meteor
-Deflecting and pushing away debris of said meteor
-Usage of a sword -> Swordsmanship
-Crushing

Sakuzaki has shown:
-Fist of magma
-Big fist of magma
-Lots of fists of magma

Mmm, now that I think about it; he didn't huh?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Looks like fan art to me bro! I have no memory of that in a manga scan.

Because WB never came from behind and Akainu had all the time in the world to prepare for a fight, and not getting man-handled straight from the get-go.

Show me ONE scan where ONE Admiral could stand up to Whitebeards punches.If you cannot then this argument is invalid.

As I pointed out, if Akainu had prep-time, he could defend against it. But he never didn't have the sufficient time to concentrate.

He was in the midst of a battle. If he is incapable of using Haki without prep time then he clearly isn't worthy of the admiral tier label which we give him.

No, by my logic, Akainu is equal to or an Emperor.

He's actually the FA.
Equal...to an Emperor!?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

[video=youtube;9GSgk2oP-_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GSgk2oP-_0[/video]

Yeah, 'cause not only isn't he my 4th fav character, but I also hate fictitious characters since they bear no relevance to my existence, seeing as they're just a figment of someone's imagination. Quite right.

All characters are a figment of Odas imagination. You express hate for him and laugh at people who like him and rate him highly and yet claim that he's one of your favorites? I'm not buying it.

So everything that all the characters who fought their enemy showed at the 'War of the Best' was their full-power, meaning Doffy's full-power was cutting Oars' leg, just like Garp's full-power was the punch he delivered to Marco?

Unlike Doflamingo who simply would've been there for the fun of it and for the devil fruits... The Admirals had a justice and purpose to fulfill : anything less than all their might and they wouldn't be worthy of being an admiral. Why would Oda not show us their full power in a WAR OF THE BEST?

Pretty sure I never said Marco was anything but Admiral-class in any of my post which reference him.

You did in several debates regarding how strong Kizaru is... I cannot identify the threads but you also mentioned Marco being Admiral tier because he could stand up to Kizaru : I used to think he was inferior but you convinced me he was Admiral tier. Now you clearly think otherwise and we've switched places.

But that's not true. Because to be a VA, you need to be well-versed in one form of Haki. Which means an Admiral would definitely no how to fight without their DF's. And if that's not what you think, then you're truly underestimating an Admiral, so much so that by your arguments, Zoro could defeat one.

There's a difference between knowing how to use Haki and being skilled in combat without their devil fruit... Luffy can use Haki : can you see him being a capable fighter without his devil fruit? I don't because he trained to be specified in the use of his devil fruit and the Admirals are much the same.

And an Admiral can increase the brute force of their DF. For example: Aokiji increasing the strength of his ice. A Logia can't hit another Logia without Haki, meaning the Admirals (albeit they have OP DF's), need to have strong CoA, otherwise they won't fight well against a fellow Logia.

Being able to and being skilled are different things.

Huh? The only reason I posted those comments was to show how redundant your claim is. So the fact that you went to this trouble to post that, suggests that you don't even understand what you've been implying this entire time.Fact remains, Akainu could increase his magma to be able to burn ice, why? Because at the end of the day, magma>ice.

Depends on the Ice actually. Depends on the thickness of the Ice too... IMO: Magma=/>Ice. The two had equal Haki and therefore it was the magmas ever so slight superiority that granted Sakuzaki his victory.

Not sure if you have a point or not...

Not sure if you even know what you're talking about or not...

Duh, 'cause they've yet to show an all-out fight.

Show me where they say they didn't go all out in the war. Akainu certainly did go all out as he wanted pretty much everyone dead.

No it wouldn't. Because their bodies are ultimately influenced by DF power. Therefore (according to your logic), no one with a DF should be able to beat him.

Wrong. Logias are dependent on their bodies element as that is the basis of their power. A Zoan and Paramecias body doesn't become intangible or something of Nature and therefore train to fight without the use of an element. Logia fruits are based on elements and instead of using human-like combat e.g. Martial arts: A Logia user will base their fighting on their devil fruits. Logias are more dependent on their bods than the likes of a Paramecia.

Well I'm not, lol. Since you're referring to my speculation. Also, you've contradicted yourself here.

How have I contradicted myself?

Why? Because all this time, I've been saying that Haki-mastery will allow anyone with a DF to beat BB

You severely underestimate him. He's just above admiral tier but any Logia user below him in strength gets stomped instead of slightly beaten. This is due to the fact that any Logia wouldn't be prepared for an earthquake punch (being incapable of blocking because normally they would disperse etc. beforehand if they were fast enough.

but you've been arguing that if they possess a DF, they're screwed

If they posess a Logia devil fruit: they're screwed.

- no matter which way you look at it. However, now you say if Luffy masters his Haki, he'll be able to beat him, which is exactly what I've been claiming through this entire debate. So please, choose one stand-point.

My stand point is clear: Blackbeard stomps any Logia Admiral tiers even if the gap in strength is slim. I'm talking Luffy having Haki superior to Shanks. But Admiral tier haki wouldn't help if they don't know how to block without using their devil fruit. You've clearly misunderstood what I've been saying this entire time...

 

[ziggyZ]

Haki appears to be instantaneous from what we've seen so far.

Haki is formed through the focus of one's willpower. So the instantaneous examples are most likely not as strong as their concentrated amount.

Isshou has shown:
-Pulling down a meteor
-Deflecting and pushing away debris of said meteor

Those points revolve around meteors, meaning they're one an the same.

-Usage of a sword -> Swordsmanship

No he hasn't, he's just shown to use his DF by unsheathing it.

-Crushing

We don't even know how he did that.

Sakuzaki has shown:
-Fist of magma
-Big fist of magma
-Lots of fists of magma

Akainu's DF one-dimensional since it just gives him a magma body. So there's not much he can do - save using his arms. Whereas Fujitora's DF seems to be much more versed. Meaning any fodder can use that fruit and possess more variations than Akainu has.

Looks like fan art to me bro! I have no memory of that in a manga scan.

There's a reason I said he could turn his arm into a dog, it's because I saw it when I read that chapter. Additionally, Aokiji turned his arm into a bird when he briefly fought Ace, hence that image has more proof to exist.

Show me ONE scan where ONE Admiral could stand up to Whitebeards punches.If you cannot then this argument is invalid.

No one can provide you with that. However, if you want proof, than this argument is truly superfluous. Because we have not seen the full-extent of both parties. Thusly, this debate is supported by a foundation of thorough speculation.

He was in the midst of a battle. If he is incapable of using Haki without prep time then he clearly isn't worthy of the admiral tier label which we give him.

It doesn't matter who you are, if someone who has the power to destroy an island comes sneaks up froum behind you and starts beating you to a pulp, how will they have them time to react? Not even Roger would be able to use great Haki to defend himself if he was in that scenario. After-all, Oda intends Akainu to be one of Luffy's hardest opponents, so why would he make him so if he doesn't even possess the power to be a threat to him? Hence Oda made it that WB never gave Akainu time for a fair fight.

He's actually the FA.

And....

Equal...to an Emperor!?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

[video=youtube;9GSgk2oP-_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GSgk2oP-_0[/video]

So I guess every Emperor is on par with WB, huh? Even Kaido, someone who has a 30% chance of losing against Law & Luffy.

All characters are a figment of Odas imagination.

Yeah, so?

You express hate for him

Show me where I have expressed such emotions.

and laugh at people who like him and rate him highly

Nope. I laugh at those (not him, but the P-E-O-P-L-E) who overestimate him. Fun fact: the M3 are my fav characters, but I piss myself when they're even considered to be Top TIER's.

and yet claim that he's one of your favorites? I'm not buying it.

How so?

The Admirals had a justice and purpose to fulfill : anything less than all their might and they wouldn't be worthy of being an admiral. Why would Oda not show us their full power in a WAR OF THE BEST?

So by this, I conclude that you think Luffy is able to beat an Admiral as he is now. Because since you believe the Admirals went all-out at the 'War of the Best', what they showed was essentially nothing special, hence they are actually weak and just severely overestimated.

You did in several debates regarding how strong Kizaru is... I cannot identify the threads but you also mentioned Marco being Admiral tier because he could stand up to Kizaru : I used to think he was inferior but you convinced me he was Admiral tier. Now you clearly think otherwise and we've switched places.

You fail to comprehend that post. Since one part says I don't think he's anything BUT Admiral-class. Meaning he IS Admiral-class. And the second part I've never said he was NOT Admiral-class.

There's a difference between knowing how to use Haki and being skilled in combat without their devil fruit... Luffy can use Haki : can you see him being a capable fighter without his devil fruit? I don't because he trained to be specified in the use of his devil fruit and the Admirals are much the same.

Luffy can fight without his DF, because his DF mostly increases his strength and reach, so if you take his DF from him now, and tell him to fight with Haki, he could do so, because he his ultimately a martial artist. Moreover, he spent 2 years training with a Haki legend, so it's safe to say he can fight with Haki alone.

Being able to and being skilled are different things.

Indeed they are, but suggesting an Admiral isn't skilled in Haki suggests that they aren't even Top TIER.

Depends on the Ice actually. Depends on the thickness of the Ice too... IMO: Magma=/>Ice. The two had equal Haki and therefore it was the magmas ever so slight superiority that granted Sakuzaki his victory.

That's only if you start applying chemistry to OP, and RL logic doesn't necessarily work in OP. That's why until Oda clarifies on what Aokiji is capable of doing, we must assume ice stands no chance against magma.

Not sure if you even know what you're talking about or not...

Guilty as charged.

Show me where they say they didn't go all out in the war. Akainu certainly did go all out as he wanted pretty much everyone dead.

He illustrated that his main priority was to protect the execution stand: after Aokiji and Kizaru left their seats and Jozu through the iceberg, this is what he said

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

That's why he sent meteors down so he could destroy the ground while still being at his preferred location.

Wrong. Logias are dependent on their bodies element as that is the basis of their power. A Zoan and Paramecias body doesn't become intangible or something of Nature and therefore train to fight without the use of an element. Logia fruits are based on elements and instead of using human-like combat e.g. Martial arts: A Logia user will base their fighting on their devil fruits. Logias are more dependent on their bods than the likes of a Paramecia.

No I'm not. What I said is true. Each and every person who consumes a DF, has their body ultimately influenced by that power. So in terms of fighting BB, anyone with a DF is screwed 'cause they have that power inside them. Even if they don't physically use their power, BB can just use his "gravity" power to grab a hold of them, as he did with Ace; he was knocked-back by BB, and then he pulled him towards himself, and not because he was a Logia, but because he had the power of DF inside him.

If they posess a Logia devil fruit: they're screwed.

Lucci touching BB in his hybrid form = finished. Luffy using Gum Gum Pistol = finished.

Hence, there needs to be a way to bypass such an advantage, and that very loophole is Haki.
How have I contradicted myself?

You severely underestimate him. He's just above admiral tier

No I don't. In fact, he is overestimated: sure he has 2 of the strongest DF's to date, but that doesn't change the matter of any Top TIER without a DF but instead possess monster Haki would beat him. And saying he's above Admiral-class is saying that during Zephyr's & Garp's prime (Admiral's who don't have a DF power), he is > them. But in no way is that the case. Since they (well definitely Garp) would Mid DIFF him at the very most.

Logia user below him in strength gets stomped instead of slightly beaten. This is due to the fact that any Logia wouldn't be prepared for an earthquake punch (being incapable of blocking because normally they would disperse etc. beforehand if they were fast enough.

Any DF user in general would be stomped by him.

My stand point is clear: Blackbeard stomps any Logia Admiral tiers even if the gap in strength is slim.

Due to your arguments, you shouldn't isolate Logia's as one group because logically, all DF users are on the same boat. But, though that's the case, no Admiral-class person would be beaten so easily albeit what DF they have, simply because they all possess grand level of Haki.

You've clearly misunderstood what I've been saying this entire time...

No I haven't. You just underestimate the Admiral's simply 'cause a few of them didn't get that much panel time to shine at the 'War of the Best'.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Haki is formed through the focus of one's willpower. So the instantaneous examples are most likely not as strong as their concentrated amount.

Actually by that explanation Haki would be about as fast as Nerve signals : faster than a big lug of meat swinging it's arm.

Those points revolve around meteors, meaning they're one an the same.

So reflecting , pulling down and crushing are all the same thing? No they're not.

No he hasn't, he's just shown to use his DF by unsheathing it.

What's the point in carrying a weapon if you're not going to use it in combat or to deter?

We don't even know how he did that.

Devil fruit power.

Akainu's DF one-dimensional since it just gives him a magma body. So there's not much he can do - save using his arms. Whereas Fujitora's DF seems to be much more versed. Meaning any fodder can use that fruit and possess more variations than Akainu has.

Hence I'm correct in saying that all Akainu does with his fruit is like what Naruto does with Rasengan

There's a reason I said he could turn his arm into a dog, it's because I saw it when I read that chapter.

However you lack the evidence to jog my memory.

Additionally, Aokiji turned his arm into a bird when he briefly fought Ace, hence that image has more proof to exist.

And now Kizaru can make a monkey out of lasers right?

No one can provide you with that. However, if you want proof, than this argument is truly superfluous. Because we have not seen the full-extent of both parties. Thusly, this debate is supported by a foundation of thorough speculation.

Due to a lack of evidence (nobody can provide the evidence because the evidence doesn't exist to back up your point: because it's incorrect) I seem to have won this part of our little debate...

It doesn't matter who you are, if someone who has the power to destroy an island comes sneaks up froum behind you and starts beating you to a pulp, how will they have them time to react? Not even Roger would be able to use great Haki to defend himself if he was in that scenario.

We've never seen Roger fight. Your comparison is pointless and baseless , even so if what you say were to be true then someone of Yonkou level (Sakuzaki) would be able to stand up for himself when he was completely annihilated by WB

After-all, Oda intends Akainu to be one of Luffy's hardest opponents, so why would he make him so if he doesn't even possess the power to be a threat to him? Hence Oda made it that WB never gave Akainu time for a fair fight.

Luffy will defeat Akainu towards EOS when there's maybe 200 or 300 chapters to go. Luffy will be just about strong enough to win ; he would become stronger later in order to face Yonkou toe to toe.

And....

You said Sakuzaki was a Yonkou.

So I guess every Emperor is on par with WB, huh? Even Kaido, someone who has a 30% chance of losing against Law & Luffy.

Think about it...
WB died at the age of 72 and was sick. Pretty sure Kaidou,Shanks and Big Mam would've been able to narrowly defeat him.

Yeah, so? Show me where I have expressed such emotions. Nope. I laugh at those (not him, but the P-E-O-P-L-E) who overestimate him. Fun fact: the M3 are my fav characters, but I piss myself when they're even considered to be Top TIER's. How so?

You still express a hatred for BB sarcastically through your classic size 7 hahaha spams. I'd rather not make a full length essay analysis.

So by this, I conclude that you think Luffy is able to beat an Admiral as he is now. Because since you believe the Admirals went all-out at the 'War of the Best', what they showed was essentially nothing special, hence they are actually weak and just severely overestimated.

Luffy is barely top 30 if that.
How do the Admirals have anything to do with Luffys strength now? The Admirals went all out against the worlds strongest pirate crew. Why wouldn't an admiral perform their duty in the name of Justice?

You fail to comprehend that post. Since one part says I don't think he's anything BUT Admiral-class. Meaning he IS Admiral-class. And the second part I've never said he was NOT Admiral-class.

But you're saying he can defeat Teach whom is slightly above the Admiral tier PRE TS. We don't know how strong he is now but i'm certain he won't be any weaker.

Luffy can fight without his DF, because his DF mostly increases his strength and reach, so if you take his DF from him now, and tell him to fight with Haki, he could do so, because he his ultimately a martial artist. Moreover, he spent 2 years training with a Haki legend, so it's safe to say he can fight with Haki alone.

Because Luffy fights in close combat all the time. It's different for a Paramecia than a Logia user if they're stripped of their abilities: put it this way :
Luffy: "Oh no! I can't reach as far!"
Logias: "I can't become intangible! I can't use ANY of my fighting arsenal except Rokushiki if I can use it! I am now extremely vulnerable!"

Indeed they are, but suggesting an Admiral isn't skilled in Haki suggests that they aren't even Top TIER.

Admirals are not top tier. There's two tiers above them... Top tier is Shanks and Dragon etc. The Tier above Admiral tier is the likes of BB and Sengoku (whom I believe is also slightly stronger than Sakuzaki) , of course they're skilled in Haki! I mean that they are not skilled in combat. It's like putting a master of a Martial art in a fight against a samurai without their armor or weapon and therefore they'll lose. They still have some skills (their Haki is more strength than Skill cos that's pretty much what Haki is) but the samurai would lose.

That's only if you start applying chemistry to OP, and RL logic doesn't necessarily work in OP. That's why until Oda clarifies on what Aokiji is capable of doing, we must assume ice stands no chance against magma.

But by that logic Magma couldn't burn fire as they're both hot. Simply put in OP Logic Hot and Cold counteract each other without regards as to the extent of a temperature.

Guilty as charged.

Yes you're guilty as charged.

He illustrated that his main priority was to protect the execution stand: after Aokiji and Kizaru left their seats and Jozu through the iceberg, this is what he said

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

That's why he sent meteors down so he could destroy the ground while still being at his preferred location.

He still wanted everyone dead.

No I'm not. What I said is true. Each and every person who consumes a DF, has their body ultimately influenced by that power.

Paramecia's bodies are less altered than Logias.

So in terms of fighting BB, anyone with a DF is screwed 'cause they have that power inside them. Even if they don't physically use their power, BB can just use his "gravity" power to grab a hold of them, as he did with Ace; he was knocked-back by BB, and then he pulled him towards himself, and not because he was a Logia, but because he had the power of DF inside him.

Gravity affects flames. Your argument at this point isn't quite clear.

Lucci touching BB in his hybrid form = finished. Luffy using Gum Gum Pistol = finished.

It's Blackbeard touching them. Not them touching him.

Hence, there needs to be a way to bypass such an advantage, and that very loophole is Haki.
How have I contradicted myself?

It's Blackbeard touching them. Not them touching him.

No I don't. In fact, he is overestimated: sure he has 2 of the strongest DF's to date, but that doesn't change the matter of any Top TIER without a DF but instead possess monster Haki would beat him.

The likes of Shanks,Garp and Rayleigh could beat him because he's a noob with Haki pre TS

And saying he's above Admiral-class is saying that during Zephyr's & Garp's prime (Admiral's who don't have a DF power), he is > them. But in no way is that the case. Since they (well definitely Garp) would Mid DIFF him at the very most.
Any DF user in general would be stomped by him.

He's>Zephyr but Garp at that time was top three. BB would be defeated by a prime Garp. But more towards the mid-high diff. So you're saying WB would be stomped by Garp?

Due to your arguments, you shouldn't isolate Logia's as one group because logically, all DF users are on the same boat.

Logias are on the same boat as Logias
Paramecias are on the same boat as Paramecias
Zoans are on the same boat as Zoans
They're in the same fleet but they all have different advantages abilities even if they share the same weaknesses.

But, though that's the case, no Admiral-class person would be beaten so easily albeit what DF they have, simply because they all possess grand level of Haki.

Raw power isn't enough to be top tier. They need skill. Even the Admirals (not quite top tier) are very powerful and skillful ; but only skillful at using their devil fruits even if they have monstrous Haki

No I haven't. You just underestimate the Admiral's simply 'cause a few of them didn't get that much panel time to shine at the 'War of the Best'.

How is saying that an Admiral could solo the M3 Extreme diff underestimating an Admiral? Because that statement is the testament of strength which I believe they have.

 

[ziggyZ]

Actually by that explanation Haki would be about as fast as Nerve signals : faster than a big lug of meat swinging it's arm.

What? First you say it's instantaneous now you make a sarcastic remark stating otherwise. Choose one option.

So reflecting , pulling down and crushing are all the same thing? No they're not.

Yeah, but a meteor is a meteor. So at the end of the day, what he showed isn't that differentiated.

What's the point in carrying a weapon if you're not going to use it in combat or to deter?

Ace carried a gun, but he never used it. Ever. And why would he when he can shoot little embers?
Furthermore, he may carry that sword because the DF was consumed by the sword and not his being.

Devil fruit power.

So you know what DF he has eh?

Hence I'm correct in saying that all Akainu does with his fruit is like what Naruto does with Rasengan

No it's not. Naruto chooses to use almost no other tech save his Rasengan and those variations. However Akainu doesn't have a choice because he can only use one power, period. Hence Akainu is still more versed.

However you lack the evidence to jog my memory.

Go to the Magu Magu no Mi wikia, it states Akainu possesses that tech.

And now Kizaru can make a monkey out of lasers right?

No, but he could very well do what Monet (her snow-monster)/CC (the form he was in when Luffy delivered a GM/Enel (the form he was in when Luffy delivered a Golden Rifle)did; become a monster (a la Monet becomming a snow-monster, or how CC became a monster using his gas, but the best example was shown by someone who has a similar fruit to Kizaru - Enel's form before Luffy used Goldedn Rifle on him) - and this power is theorized to be called "super-mode". Thereby he could turn into a yellow monkey, reminiscent of something that occurred in the anime which inspired Oda - Golden Oozaru.

Due to a lack of evidence (nobody can provide the evidence because the evidence doesn't exist to back up your point: because it's incorrect) I seem to have won this part of our little debate...

Not really, since you have yet to prove an Admiral can't stop it by themselves if they had enough time. Thus this debate is either tied or continues.

We've never seen Roger fight. Your comparison is pointless and baseless , even so if what you say were to be true then someone of Yonkou level (Sakuzaki) would be able to stand up for himself when he was completely annihilated by WB

Lel, when did I say that? I simply said Akainu would put up a better fight if he wasn't cheap-shotted.

Luffy will defeat Akainu towards EOS when there's maybe 200 or 300 chapters to go. Luffy will be just about strong enough to win ; he would become stronger later in order to face Yonkou toe to toe.

Akainu has a much, much better chance at being Luffy's final opponent instead of an actual Emperor. Meaning by the time Akainu fights him, he should equal to or greater that Roger.

You said Sakuzaki was a Yonkou.

No I didn't. You said my logic suggets Admirals or on par with Emperor's. So I replied stating how my logic says Akainu (not any Admiral, but A-K-A-I-N-U) is =/> an Emperor.
Think about it...

WB died at the age of 72 and was sick. Pretty sure Kaidou,Shanks and Big Mam would've been able to narrowly defeat him.

There's no chance Kaido (someone Law, Luffy & possibly Drake will beat) could beat WB when he trashed an Admiral (someone those 3 can't beat).

You still express a hatred for BB sarcastically through your classic size 7 hahaha spams. I'd rather not make a full length essay analysis.

Well I don't, lol. I just post such comments simply to mock other people's ridiculous and idiotic conclusions.

Luffy is barely top 30 if that.
How do the Admirals have anything to do with Luffys strength now? The Admirals went all out against the worlds strongest pirate crew.

Provide proof that supports this.

Why wouldn't an admiral perform their duty in the name of Justice?

Logically, you're right, any Admiral would give it their all in those circumstances. However, this is a story, and the 'War of the Best' was what Oda calls a "side trip". So given this information, he didn't show us the full-extent of the Admirals' power because doing that in what he called a "side trip", would ruin all the build-up and hype for what the Admirals (who may very well be the FV's) can do. So take it like this: an author would never reveal unto us what their major-villains can do as soon they're relevant to the story - especially if they don't appear regularly. Why? Because if they show us their full-power, throughout the course of the series when the protagonist attains even greater heights, people will realize that the protagonist(s) now possess the power needed to defeat the FV(s). And maybe, before the actual fight between them, the protagonist shows power that can no-doubt give them a victory against their final obstacle. And thus the sense of excitement is reduced immeasurably. Hence the FVs' full-power is left unknown until their end-all fight, so that throughout the factual fight, there'll be amazing moments since the FV starts showing incredible shit that we've never seen.

And if you disregard the fact that reality dicates people to go for broke in a war, and add the fact that since the war in the fiction-story was a "side trip", it makes sense the Admiral's didn't show their everything they have.

But you're saying he can defeat Teach whom is slightly above the Admiral tier PRE TS. We don't know how strong he is now but i'm certain he won't be any weaker.

BB was definitely not on par with an Admiral Pre-TS. Especially since he was ever so premature with WB's power. And there's a better chance at snowball keeping it's form in Hell, in comparison to BB being slightly above Admiral-class, since the Gorose knew Marco would beat him.

Because Luffy fights in close combat all the time. It's different for a Paramecia than a Logia user if they're stripped of their abilities: put it this way :
Luffy: "Oh no! I can't reach as far!"
Logias: "I can't become intangible! I can't use ANY of my fighting arsenal except Rokushiki if I can use it! I am now extremely vulnerable!"

Luffy has lived his life stretching, so there's no doubt that if he was stripped of his power by an opponent in a life/death battle, that he would be mentally unstable for a moments time + while Luffy would be trying to comprehend a way to fight BB since he can't stretch, BB would obliterate him with a quake-punch since one of Luffy's most used attribute is his invulnerablity to blunt-damage. So as soon as he loses his power, he'll get a quake and that's the end of it all.

Admirals are not top tier. There's two tiers above them... Top tier is Shanks and Dragon etc.

What? Yes they are. The Tier system (as used in all intelligent forums) goes as such: Low TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers), Mid TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers), High TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers) & Top TIER (consisting of low, mid, high & top sub-tiers).
And the Admirals should rank up around the low-midTop TIER mark. Whereas Akainu should be around mid-highTop TIER.

The Tier above Admiral tier is the likes of BB and Sengoku (whom I believe is also slightly stronger than Sakuzaki)

1. BB is at the very best mid-highTop. Seeing as those above that TIER are monsters at Haki.
2. Sengoku, even in his Prime, would lose to Akainu as he is now. And here's why: Because unlike his other 2 "partners" during Roger's era, he has yet to have an epithet regarding strength, nor has he even been revered for his strength. But he instead was acknowledged for his intelligence:

Spoiler

Sengoku is renowned for his tactical and strategic genius by Marines and pirates alike: he is mainly responsible for all the Marine maneuvers deployed throughout the Whitebeard War at Marineford, such as forwarding a plan to all Marines that Portgas D. Ace was to be executed ahead of the official schedule with the intention that the opposing pirate forces would intercept the message and lose their composure; he then conspired with Admiral Akainu in a plot to derail the alliance between Whitebeard's core divisions and the 41 independent New World pirate crews assisting by directing a 20-strong Pacifista division to target only the non-Whitebeard division pirates, and it was possible that the earlier transmissions regarding Ace's true parentage was not only an act of public justification but also to demoralize those pirates who were undermined by the Roger Pirates: with Akainu's persuasion, Sengoku's plan managed to drive one of those captains to attempt assassinating Whitebeard himself, and while the blow was not fatal, it did further debilitate Whitebeard's already hazardous condition. He operated his strategies while keeping close in mind the various powers of his greatest subordinates, especially the Marine Admirals: raising Marineford's siege walls in conjunction with Akainu's "Ryusei Kazan" to rout the allied pirate forces and destroy Whitebeard's flagship, the Moby **** while protecting the brunt of the Marine garrison from the damage.

I.E. Garp the Fist; Black Arm Zephyr; and then there's Sengoku the Buddha (and I strongly believe that epithet is a play on words, since it doesn't only relate to his power, but also his brilliance) - plus he's also known to be called the "Resourceful General" or "The Strategist".

, of course they're skilled in Haki! I mean that they are not skilled in combat. It's like putting a master of a Martial art in a fight against a samurai without their armor or weapon and therefore they'll lose. They still have some skills (their Haki is more strength than Skill cos that's pretty much what Haki is) but the samurai would lose.

But in this case - against BB, you Akainu doesn't need to necessarily have to be combat-full with Haki, just as long as he has the Haki required to ensure BB doesn't cancel-out his DF. And someone the caliber of Akainu should most definitely possess said Haki.

Yes you're guilty as charged.

Well duh, why else would I admit so if it wasn't the case????

He still wanted everyone dead.

But how much did he do to ensure that everyone did die? Not a lot. Otherwise he would've had to actually tried and gone "all-out". And Oda avoided that because he wanted to leave his full-prowess to speculation.

Paramecia's bodies are less altered than Logias.

Their bodies not so much, but their powers are just as much.

Gravity affects flames. Your argument at this point isn't quite clear.

Gravity affects anything.
And my point is: BB's power allows him to toss & turn anyone.

It's Blackbeard touching them. Not them touching him.


It's Blackbeard touching them. Not them touching him.

If I touch you, you're in contact with me, right? Vice-versa.

The likes of Shanks,Garp and Rayleigh could beat him because he's a noob with Haki pre TS

And most likely a noob (in regards to possessing it) right now.

He's>Zephyr but Garp at that time was top three. BB would be defeated by a prime Garp. But more towards the mid-high diff.

He's not >Prime Zephyr in any day and age.

So you're saying WB would be stomped by Garp?

Where'd you pull this from?

Logias are on the same boat as Logias
Paramecias are on the same boat as Paramecias
Zoans are on the same boat as Zoans
They're in the same fleet but they all have different advantages abilities even if they share the same weaknesses.

To an extent that is true; however the end result is that they are both finished because any DF user relies on their DF no matter the power.

Raw power isn't enough to be top tier. They need skill. Even the Admirals (not quite top tier) are very powerful and skillful ; but only skillful at using their devil fruits even if they have monstrous Haki

And their skill comes from their DF's.

Aside from that: why would someone have such Haki if they don't know how to use it aside from infusing the DF power with it?

How is saying that an Admiral could solo the M3 Extreme diff underestimating an Admiral? Because that statement is the testament of strength which I believe they have.

Because their Haki combined should still not be able to equal an Admiral's. And why? Because they've spent way over a decade training it, and the M3 have just had 2 years worth of knowledge and skill on it. So if you calculate it all, they lose High DIFF<.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

What? First you say it's instantaneous now you make a sarcastic remark stating otherwise. Choose one option.

Are you familiar with the speed of nerves? So fast that they're seemingly instantaneous to the human eye ; even by the standards of measurement in milliseconds most nerve signals hardly rate as one millisecond ; seemingly instantaneous.

Yeah, but a meteor is a meteor. So at the end of the day, what he showed isn't that differentiated.

How so? He's used his devil fruit in three different applications. Sakuzaki can only attack by making his arm a fist (with variations being fist spams and a big fist). Kuzan has a lot more variation : being able to craft Ice objects and freeze what he touches , even Kizaru has more variation in techniques than Akainu.

Ace carried a gun, but he never used it. Ever. And why would he when he can shoot little embers?
Furthermore, he may carry that sword because the DF was consumed by the sword and not his being.

That is a possibility ; but objects need a consciousness to operate: a Zoan fruit grants this. A paramecia wouldn't.

So you know what DF he has eh?

Pretty obvious if you actually knew how to interpret visual information correctly.

No it's not. Naruto chooses to use almost no other tech save his Rasengan and those variations. However Akainu doesn't have a choice because he can only use one power, period. Hence Akainu is still more versed.

Less variation no matter the excuse only proves my point

Go to the Magu Magu no Mi wikia, it states Akainu possesses that tech.

So it does. Even so : still less variation than that of Isshou, Kuzan and Borsalino

No, but he could very well do what Monet (her snow-monster)/CC (the form he was in when Luffy delivered a GM/Enel (the form he was in when Luffy delivered a Golden Rifle)did; become a monster (a la Monet becomming a snow-monster, or how CC became a monster using his gas, but the best example was shown by someone who has a similar fruit to Kizaru - Enel's form before Luffy used Goldedn Rifle on him) - and this power is theorized to be called "super-mode". Thereby he could turn into a yellow monkey, reminiscent of something that occurred in the anime which inspired Oda - Golden Oozaru.

That would be interesting. However I think Kong would have a giant ape fruit , as a reference to King Kong and Saiyans from Dragon Ball as an ode of respect to Akira Toriyama

Not really, since you have yet to prove an Admiral can't stop it by themselves if they had enough time. Thus this debate is either tied or continues.

We need to gain more evidence : however I still believe that nobody in the OPV could block it , and therefore the only way to evade is by dodging and out of all the admirals only Kizaru has speed on his side.

Lel, when did I say that? I simply said Akainu would put up a better fight if he wasn't cheap-shotted.

How was he cheap shotted? He was in the middle of intense combat , no cheap shots in a 1v1 unless it's from behind. But sideways on is a different matter.

Akainu has a much, much better chance at being Luffy's final opponent instead of an actual Emperor. Meaning by the time Akainu fights him, he should equal to or greater that Roger.

I can only see Luffy fighting BB for One Piece at the end before the war which is bound to break out, maybe then : they will fight. However I'd prefer to see Luffy vs Admiral Smoker and Law vs Fleet Admiral Coby. I think the whole Admiral roster would be completely different. Because imo they will all be killed by someone as d!cky and tw*tty as BB

No I didn't. You said my logic suggets Admirals or on par with Emperor's. So I replied stating how my logic says Akainu (not any Admiral, but A-K-A-I-N-U) is =/> an Emperor.

He really isn't. We only have three Yonkou to compare to: Whitebeard who is long gone , when sick and injured many times he curbstomped Akainu. Blackbeard who imo would defeat him because of the Gura Gura no Mi + Yami Yami no Mi combo allowing him to take away Akainus main power. And Shanks whom we've seen little from : however he was able to stand toe to toe with Whitebeard (at this point he was sick but he was not in anyway injured like in the war)

Think about it...

He really isn't. We only have three Yonkou to compare to: Whitebeard who is long gone , when sick and injured many times he curbstomped Akainu. Blackbeard who imo would defeat him because of the Gura Gura no Mi + Yami Yami no Mi combo allowing him to take away Akainus main power. And Shanks whom we've seen little from : however he was able to stand toe to toe with Whitebeard (at this point he was sick but he was not in anyway injured like in the war)

Think about it...

There's no chance Kaido (someone Law, Luffy & possibly Drake will beat) could beat WB when he trashed an Admiral (someone those 3 can't beat).

Luffy+Law combined would give an admiral a fight requiring moderate effort to win. Three would be just enough to beat one. You seem to be going by the "30%" thing as just the fight between Luffy+Law vs Kaidou alone. It's the whole crews that add to the equation.

If you think Kaidou is roughly equal to Akainu then he would be strong enough to take on four or five Supernovae and still have a chance of victory. 30/2 = 15 , 15x3 = 45 45<50 , 50/50 chance is in my opinion the outcome of a fight between Akainu and the current Luffy,Law and someone like Franky (not a supernova). However this is only my opinion.

Well I don't, lol. I just post such comments simply to mock other people's ridiculous and idiotic conclusions.

Fair enough

Provide proof that supports this.Logically, you're right, any Admiral would give it their all in those circumstances. However, this is a story, and the 'War of the Best' was what Oda calls a "side trip". So given this information, he didn't show us the full-extent of the Admirals' power because doing that in what he called a "side trip", would ruin all the build-up and hype for what the Admirals (who may very well be the FV's) can do.

Good point , however it would also be stupid not to show the Admirals full power under those circumstances. The side trip reference was in comparison to the final arc which would be a GLOBAL SCALE war which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a war on one island lasting three hours or so

So take it like this: an author would never reveal unto us what their major-villains can do as soon they're relevant to the story - especially if they don't appear regularly. Why? Because if they show us their full-power, throughout the course of the series when the protagonist attains even greater heights, people will realize that the protagonist(s) now possess the power needed to defeat the FV(s).

Which is exactly why we saw Madaras full strength in Naruto within 15 chapters of his resurrection , Aizens full power (after absorbing the Hougyoku) pretty much within one or two chapters and another good example is we see Kouen Ren in Magi using his full power (he could become the main villain even if it's not likely he will be incredibly relevant and impacting on the story)in his first battle on screen.

And maybe, before the actual fight between them, the protagonist shows power that can no-doubt give them a victory against their final obstacle. And thus the sense of excitement is reduced immeasurably. Hence the FVs' full-power is left unknown until their end-all fight, so that throughout the factual fight, there'll be amazing moments since the FV starts showing incredible shit that we've never seen.

A flaw is that we also tend to see a lot of enemies full power early on , e.g. Crocodile in Alabasta in his first fight with Luffy.

And if you disregard the fact that reality dicates people to go for broke in a war, and add the fact that since the war in the fiction-story was a "side trip", it makes sense the Admiral's didn't show their everything they have.

Side trip reference (as explained earlier) could be a comparison as of the global scale yet to come.

BB was definitely not on par with an Admiral Pre-TS. Especially since he was ever so premature with WB's power. And there's a better chance at snowball keeping it's form in Hell, in comparison to BB being slightly above Admiral-class, since the Gorose knew Marco would beat him.

Marco wouldn't be capable of healing of BB punched him with the force of an earthquake while in contact...
If Marco was admiral tier then I see no issue for BB against the Admirals

Luffy has lived his life stretching, so there's no doubt that if he was stripped of his power by an opponent in a life/death battle, that he would be mentally unstable for a moments time + while Luffy would be trying to comprehend a way to fight BB since he can't stretch, BB would obliterate him with a quake-punch since one of Luffy's most used attribute is his invulnerablity to blunt-damage. So as soon as he loses his power, he'll get a quake and that's the end of it all.

Just like how a Logia will spend a lot of time being an element and not requiring any hand to hand combat skills which Paramecia, Zoans and regular people would require.

What? Yes they are. The Tier system (as used in all intelligent forums) goes as such: Low TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers), Mid TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers), High TIER (consisting of low, mid & high sub-tiers) & Top TIER (consisting of low, mid, high & top sub-tiers).
And the Admirals should rank up around the low-midTop TIER mark. Whereas Akainu should be around mid-highTop TIER.

That's only in accordance to you. I agree with the sub tiers , but the sub tiers often overcomplicate things , I prefer to simplify things whenever possible because I'm lazy. But even within the sub tiers in the top tier there should be VERY few people. We're talking one or two per tier in my opinion ; and none of the current admirals rank to 10 on my list.

1. BB is at the very best mid-highTop. Seeing as those above that TIER are monsters at Haki.

He's low top tier. The Admirals are high high tier.

2. Sengoku, even in his Prime, would lose to Akainu as he is now. And here's why: Because unlike his other 2 "partners" during Roger's era, he has yet to have an epithet regarding strength, nor has he even been revered for his strength. But he instead was acknowledged for his intelligence: I.E. Garp the Fist; Black Arm Zephyr; and then there's Sengoku the Buddha (and I strongly believe that epithet is a play on words, since it doesn't only relate to his power, but also his brilliance) - plus he's also known to be called the "Resourceful General" or "The Strategist".

Wasn't Rayleigh a pretty resourceful leader too? His Buddha epithet refers to the giant Buddha Daibutsu and nothing else...

But in this case - against BB, you Akainu doesn't need to necessarily have to be combat-full with Haki, just as long as he has the Haki required to ensure BB doesn't cancel-out his DF. And someone the caliber of Akainu should most definitely possess said Haki.

Haki only affects a logias defensive capabilities ; it shouldn't do anything in regards to his actual power , Akainu's Haki would take a lot of the damage but an earthquake is an earthquake ; there's nothing more terrifying. BB SEEMS to be able to use Haki (probably not proficiently ) as he talks about Luffy's Haki growing stronger during the Impel down encounter between the two. So his Haki (not admiral tier , probably roughly equal to Luffy's) would further enhance the punch. Without Haki Akainu can withstand his punch (but a second would destroy him). If Blackbeard can use Haki wouldn't need to grab onto him.

What if Blackbeard can now touch someone and unleash a shockwave/tremor with the same hand instantaneously on impact? That would be incredibly difficult to combat.

But how much did he do to ensure that everyone did die? Not a lot. Otherwise he would've had to actually tried and gone "all-out". And Oda avoided that because he wanted to leave his full-prowess to speculation.

Akainu killed Ace (the main objective) almost killed Jinbe and Luffy , contributed to killing Whitebeard and killed HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of fodders when he melted the ice in MFBay.

Their bodies not so much, but their powers are just as much.

Paramecia and Zoans are more used to "human" combat which would differ from being able to become an element before spewing out the element from your hands etc.

Gravity affects anything.
And my point is: BB's power allows him to toss & turn anyone.

His powers do grant him to literally do that now. Which is why he is so strong even with NW Supernova level Haki at best.

If I touch you, you're in contact with me, right? Vice-versa.

I mean he has to be the one to initiate the contact.

And most likely a noob (in regards to possessing it) right now.
He's not >Prime Zephyr in any day and age.

Based off of what evidence? or is this just an opinion?

Where'd you pull this from?

You said all devil fruit users would fall before Garp... it's a pretty baseless claim

To an extent that is true; however the end result is that they are both finished because any DF user relies on their DF no matter the power.

Relying and using are different things. Luffy relies on his devil fruit. However a good example of someone who doesn't rely on their fruit would be Jozu. He only really uses it to increase an impact , he's strong enough already : his devil fruit basically acts as a second active Haki usage at one time.

Any Logia is totally dependant on their fruits power.

And their skill comes from their DF's.

And without their DF....
BB would stomp.

Aside from that: why would someone have such Haki if they don't know how to use it aside from infusing the DF power with it?

How would Haki help someone to escape the grip of another person, Haki acts to increase an impact and wriggling free doesn't create an impact. Both Busoshoku and Kenbonshoku Haki are only going to lower an impact from the Gura Gura no Mi. Even so : anyone would be screwed.

Because their Haki combined should still not be able to equal an Admiral's. And why? Because they've spent way over a decade training it, and the M3 have just had 2 years worth of knowledge and skill on it. So if you calculate it all, they lose High DIFF<.

So are you saying anyone with stronger Haki than their opponents would win no Matter what? "Well now it's clear that Shanks solos the entire OPV combined"... Haki would only decrease received impacts and increase handed impacts. Luffy would still be able to hurt Akainu , but Akainu's Haki would prevail in a 1v1 but the fact the M3 can now hurt Akainu means they can fight and therefore beat him with extreme difficulty.