[Theory] Chakra and the Shinju

[jt1891]

Chapter 646 has created a lot of confusion about the origin and nature of chakra. According to Madara, the chakra of every living shinobi belongs explicitly to the Shinju. Yet how can that be? From the beginning of the series, we've been told that chakra is created when an individual mixes his own spiritual and physical energies together. How can these two seemingly contradictory statements be reconciled?

My theory is that the Shinju's chakra is present in every single shinobi as the Keirakukei, or the Chakra Pathway System. When Kaguya ate the Fruit, the Shinju's chakra took the form of the Keirakukei within her body, allowing her own physical and spiritual energies to mix together. If this is the case, in a real sense, human chakra does belong to the Shinju, as it's existence is utterly dependent on the the power of the God Tree.

This would also fit with the fact that the Shinju seems to be inspired by legends of the World Tree in various religions. In mythology, the World Tree acted as a link or bridge between heaven and earth, or the physical and spiritual realms respectively. So it would be fitting if it's power would act as the bridge between the physical and spiritual aspects of human beings.

 

[AllomnisymbolsparttwoT]

I agree, when kaguya ate of the fruit, She gained divine chakra, divine chakra is the chakra that gives us the sharingan rinnegan byakugan.etc pair of special eyes

 

[Khallil]

maybe.. dunno
or that everyone has it but isn't able to use it. as explained in one of the very first episodes, they explain what chakra is, and everyone has chakra, btu not everyone knows very how to use is, and that you even need a very small amount of chakra for things like moving, hitting and blabla

 

[Mr Hiru]

But manga says that the Rikudou was the first human that was born with chakra... :/

 

[jt1891]

But manga says that the Rikudou was the first human that was born with chakra... :/

And this theory is perfectly consistent with that. Kaguya passed the Shinju's chakra down to Hagoromo, who had the ability to use chakra from birth. He then passed it down to his children, who passed it to theirs, until it became a widespread trait.

 

[Mr Hiru]

The problem is that your theory has a little paradox inside. If the fruit had chakra and nothing more, then humans didn't have yin and yang energy until that point in history. In escence, that is chakra, but unmerged.

In other words, what the fruit really gave to Kaguya was the knowledge to merge spiritual and physical energy to create chakra. But then, if that's all what the fruit gave to Kaguya, there would be no reason for the Juubi to be mad.

Ergo, the fruit had chakra, or by transitivity, yin and yang energy. Do you see that the contradiction is still there?

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

And this theory is perfectly consistent with that. Kaguya passed the Shinju's chakra down to Hagoromo, who had the ability to use chakra from birth. He then passed it down to his children, who passed it to theirs, until it became a widespread trait.

If he only passed it to his children, and children's children etc.

It wouldn't become a widespread trait, there are still a number of other people, maybe millions without chakra, and your saying one man can repopulate the earth with his own family, even after 1000 years, they would hardly scratch the surface.

 

[jt1891]

The problem is that your theory has a little paradox inside. If the fruit had chakra and nothing more, then humans didn't have yin and yang energy until that point in history. In escence, that is chakra, but unmerged.

In other words, what the fruit really gave to Kaguya was the knowledge to merge spiritual and physical energy to create chakra. But then, if that's all what the fruit gave to Kaguya, there would be no reason for the Juubi to be mad.

Ergo, the fruit had chakra, or by transitivity, yin and yang energy. Do you see that the contradiction is still there?

No, that's not my theory. My theory is that the Shinju's chakra is present in every living shinobi as the Chakra Pathway System. Before Kaguya ate the Fruit, humans had spiritual and physical energy, but they were physically unable to interact. The Shinju's Chakra, as the Chakra Pathway System, acts as a bridge or a base, and allows the two to mix and humans to form chakra of their own.

It's got nothing to do with knowledge.

If he only passed it to his children, and children's children etc.

It wouldn't become a widespread trait, there are still a number of other people, maybe millions without chakra, and your saying one man can repopulate the earth with his own family, even after 1000 years, they would hardly scratch the surface.

Nope. We don't need it to populate the whole earth. We simply need it to be consistent with the current shinobi population, and that's more than doable. Using a population growth calculator, with a starting population of two and a modest growth rate, within a thousand years alone the original population would grow to around 300,000 people. That's more than enough to be consistent with the current number of shinobi in the series.

 

[Mr Hiru]

No, that's not my theory. My theory is that the Shinju's chakra is present in every living shinobi as the Chakra Pathway System. Before Kaguya ate the Fruit, humans had spiritual and physical energy, but they were physically unable to interact. The Shinju's Chakra, as the Chakra Pathway System, acts as a bridge or a base, allows the two to mix and humans to form chakra of their own.

It's got nothing to do with knowledge.

It has...

Chakra = Merged Spiritual + Physical Energy

Under your point of view, all humans (even before Kaguya ate the fruit) had indirect chakra, but they didn't have the knowledge to merge their spiritual and physical and being able to call it 'chakra' explicitely.

You should see already, telling that humans had spiritual and physical energy before that event is a contradiction.

 

[jt1891]

...It has nothing to do with knowledge. In my theory, before Kaguya ate the fruit, humans possessed both physical energy and spiritual energy, but they lacked the physical ability, not the knowledge, to merge the two. They had the components necessary to create chakra, but they were physically unable to bring the two together to create a new energy. Why? In the series, it is within the Chakra Pathway System that physical and spiritual energies mix to create chakra. If humans lacked that system before Kaguya ate the fruit, they would be unable to form chakra regardless of the presence of the components.

 

[valandil988]

It has...

Chakra = Merged Spiritual + Physical Energy

Under your point of view, all humans (even before Kaguya ate the fruit) had indirect chakra, but they didn't have the knowledge to merge their spiritual and physical and being able to call it 'chakra' explicitely.

You should see already, telling that humans had spiritual and physical energy before that event is a contradiction.

He's not saying they didn't have the knowledge he is however stating that they didn't have chakra networks which are required to circulate chakra and mold it inside their bodies. IE Human chakra can only exists because the Shinju mini"tree" inside a person is circulating the chakra inside a person for them. You can't have a mix of spiritual and physical energies if you can't physically mix them inside your body.

I think you've got the completely wrong end of the stick for the three things needed for chakra.

Yin + Yang + the Physical apparatus to mix them = Chakra

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

No, that's not my theory. My theory is that the Shinju's chakra is present in every living shinobi as the Chakra Pathway System. Before Kaguya ate the Fruit, humans had spiritual and physical energy, but they were physically unable to interact. The Shinju's Chakra, as the Chakra Pathway System, acts as a bridge or a base, and allows the two to mix and humans to form chakra of their own.

It's got nothing to do with knowledge.



Nope. We don't need it to populate the whole earth. We simply need it to be consistent with the current shinobi population, and that's more than doable. Using a population growth calculator, with a starting population of two and a modest growth rate, within a thousand years alone the original population would grow to around 300,000 people. That's more than enough to be consistent with the current number of shinobi in the series.

Yes but its stated all humans, shinobi or not have chakra inside of them. E.g Samurai are shown to use chakra in fighting. So unless he repopulated the earth and with his own family, and all the other humans from his era who didn't have chakra died out, your theory sadly doesn't work.

 

[valandil988]

Yes but its stated all humans, shinobi or not have chakra inside of them. E.g Samurai are shown to use chakra in fighting. So unless he repopulated the earth and with his own family, and all the other humans from his era who didn't have chakra died out, your theory sadly doesn't work.

You think the elemental nations are the whole NV world? Nope lol its just one part, the six largest factions could only field a shinobi+samurai army of about 80000 people. Thats nothing, thats all the trained shinobi they could field. Overall thats very doable in 1000yrs witch just descendants of the sage and his mom.

And while it says everyone can be a Shinobi in the elemental nations that is still doable considering the population density.

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

You think the elemental nations are the whole NV world? Nope lol its just one part, the five largest cities could only field a shinobi army of about 80000 people. Thats nothing, thats all the trained shinobi they could field. Overall thats very doable in 1000yrs witch just descendants of the sage and his mom.

Yes but I'm talking about every villager every shinobi every human alive in the current story line will have had to have been descended from the sage for this to work. The new Sage race would also had to wipe out the humans pre-kaguya.

 

[jt1891]

Yes but its stated all humans, shinobi or not have chakra inside of them. E.g Samurai are shown to use chakra in fighting. So unless he repopulated the earth and with his own family, and all the other humans from his era who didn't have chakra died out, your theory sadly doesn't work.

And where exactly does it say this? It's been mentioned a great deal, but I've never outright seen a specific reference. But even if it was stated somewhere early in the manga, it would hardly matter. The Sage has specifically been called the 'Ancestor' of all shinobi, and the situation created by chapter 646 leaves no other mechanism to attain chakra but by heredity. Unless Kishi reveals another way, based on the facts we have, all chakra users must be descendants of Kaguya.

 

[Mr Hiru]

He's not saying they didn't have the knowledge he is however stating that they didn't have chakra networks which are required to circulate chakra and mold it inside their bodies. IE Human chakra can only exists because the Shinju mini"tree" inside a person is circulating the chakra inside a person for them. You can't have a mix of spiritual and physical energies if you can't physically mix them inside your body.

I think you've got the completely wrong end of the stick for the three things needed for chakra.

Yin + Yang + the Physical apparatus to mix them = Chakra

If this is the case, how did Rikudou teach ninjutsu to people without this special feature?

Because I'm pointing to Rikudou and Co. having children that were able to use this knowledge, ergo, people WITH the apparatus, or better said, "Rikudou being the Ancestor of Shinobi", talking in terms of bloodline.

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

And where exactly does it say this? It's been mentioned a great deal, but I've never outright seen a specific reference. But even if it was stated somewhere early in the manga, it would hardly matter. The Sage has specifically been called the 'Ancestor' of all shinobi, and the situation created by chapter 646 leaves no other mechanism to attain chakra but by heredity. Unless Kishi reveals another way, based on the facts we have, all chakra users must be descendants of Kaguya.

Chakra being a part of every single organism is common knowledge. This means every human, even those who cannot use Ninjutsu. For example Rock Lee, he cannot mould chakra, however it is still inside him. Evidenced by the fact that he gains an increase in power when he opens the CHAKRA gates. This means, that EVERYBODY right down to Teuchi, Ayami, the magazine store owner from episode 2 has a small amount of chakra inside them. If your theory was to be correct, they would all have to be related to the sage. This is impossible - too many humans. It also deducts from the fact that the Uchiha's and the Senju's were related to the sage. I mean if everyone was related to the sage, anyone could get the Rinnegan by just breeding with the right clan.

As for no other mechanism to attain chakra, please read my theory

You must be registered for see links

 

[Mr Hiru]

Chakra being a part of every single organism is common knowledge. This means every human, even those who cannot use Ninjutsu. For example Rock Lee, he cannot mould chakra, however it is still inside him. Evidenced by the fact that he gains an increase in power when he opens the CHAKRA gates. This means, that EVERYBODY right down to Teuchi, Ayami, the magazine store owner from episode 2 has a small amount of chakra inside them. If your theory was to be correct, they would all have to be related to the sage. This is impossible - too many humans. It also deducts from the fact that the Uchiha's and the Senju's were related to the sage. I mean if everyone was related to the sage, anyone could get the Rinnegan by just breeding with the right clan.

As for no other mechanism to attain chakra, please read my theory

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

- The sage was born with chakra in his body, and his mother was the first using it.

How many times do I have to repeat it? D:

...I... I retreat. I can't argue with people that can't understand these single panels. I better get out of this place.

 

[Rokudaime Hokage Naruto]

You must be registered for see links

- The sage was born with chakra in his body, and his mother was the first using it.

How many times do I have to repeat it? D:

...I... I retreat. I can't argue with people that can't understand these single panels. I better get out of this place.

I think you've misunderstood what I've been trying to say. I haven't once claimed that before the Sage people had chakra inside of them.

My point is that everyone in the current storyline, is born WITH chakra.

 

[jt1891]

Chakra being a part of every single organism is common knowledge. This means every human, even those who cannot use Ninjutsu. For example Rock Lee, he cannot mould chakra, however it is still inside him. Evidenced by the fact that he gains an increase in power when he opens the CHAKRA gates. This means, that EVERYBODY right down to Teuchi, Ayami, the magazine store owner from episode 2 has a small amount of chakra inside them. If your theory was to be correct, they would all have to be related to the sage. This is impossible - too many humans. It also deducts from the fact that the Uchiha's and the Senju's were related to the sage. I mean if everyone was related to the sage, anyone could get the Rinnegan by just breeding with the right clan.

As for no other mechanism to attain chakra, please read my theory

You must be registered for see links

'Common Knowledge' doesn't mean much. A reasonable, but unproven, assumption can quickly become 'common knowledge' if it's consistent with what we know and there is nothing to contradict it. Until 646, it was entirely reasonable to believe that everyone had chakra. So unless someone can provide me with a direct reference from the manga, I see no reason to believe that all living humans in the Narutoverse have chakra.

Also, simply because every shinobi would be a descendant of the Sage does not mean that anyone could attain the Rinnegan. Out of all the Senju we know of, Hashirama is the only individual who inherited the Sage's 'Body'. Nor does every Uchiha awaken the EMS. So simply mixing the two lines together wouldn't result in someone possessing the Rinnegan.