It really is ridiculous...

JIRAIYA perv

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the difference is that the legends dont have kurama...

... and an asspull is somethign that just come out of knowhere... where as naruto and sasukes power has been shown all throughout the manga..

another thing... of course other characters had probally thought of using clones.. the only difference is like kakashi had already stated is that they might not have had the chakra pool that naruto has to train in such a way...

actually some of these legends were strong enough to kick a FULL kurama's ass (put him to sleep).

oh so not a single jinchuuriki/character with massive chakra in history thought of this ?? ahaaaaaaaaaaa :heh:
no thank you but, getting a power up and mastering it in ONE chapter will always be ridiculous (these are SHINOBI'S, getting a power to kick ass instantly is DBZ stuff and even there they train to use it probarly). U_U
 
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Lucidus

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actually some of these legends were strong enough to kick a FULL kurama's ass (put him to sleep).

oh so not a single jinchuuriki/character with massive chakra thought of this ?? ahaaaaaaaaaaa :heh:
no thank you but, getting a power up and mastering it in ONE chapter will always be ridiculous. U_U

have u seen any of the other jinchuurikis use shadow clone at all? do u even see them train?

also name these shinobi who can solo kurama... and even if they could it is said a bijuu with a host is stronger than without..
 

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actually some of these legends were strong enough to kick a FULL kurama's ass (put him to sleep).

oh so not a single jinchuuriki/character with massive chakra in history thought of this ?? ahaaaaaaaaaaa :heh:
no thank you but, getting a power up and mastering it in ONE chapter will always be ridiculous (these are SHINOBI'S, getting a power to kick ass instantly is DBZ stuff and even there they train to use it probarly). U_U

Who mastered a power up in one chapter? When Naruto got rasengan he needed to train with it. He's only good at it now because of his 3 year training. Same thing with Sasuke's chidori, Kakashi's chidori-lightning blade, etc And ofc the other jinchuriki's have massive chakra pools just not as big as Kuramas. And each tailed beast gives their jinchuriki different abilities. Killer Bee's is spewing out ink, and tentacles out of his body, and Naruto's is massive healing, and sensing hatred among his enemies. And I only know of only two people who can take on a full powered Kurama and that's Madara and Hashirama and Naruto hasn't surpassed any of them so your point is?
 

JIRAIYA perv

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have u seen any of the other jinchuurikis use shadow clone at all? do u even see them train?

also name these shinobi who can solo kurama... and even if they could it is said a bijuu with a host is stronger than without..

oh of course i didn't see them train BUT it's LAME/an ass pull, also did that include all the fights/training naruto had looking at his fighting style which always includes shadow clones .................... coz last time i checked he wasn't doing so good, this method wasn't really working until kakashi stated it ....................... (used shadow clones when he trained with jiraiya for 3 years yet susage kicked his ass at the first meeting).

like i said a shinobi (all about skill/technicalities/practice) that gets a BIG power up, and masters it in one chapter is just ridiculous specially when we are constantly reminded that naruto isn't that bright (so he is not skilled as a shinobi but somehow managed to reach this point at this age).

plus when was the last time he trained (supposed to be the guy who is not bright but a monster in training) yet look at where he is right now ........................ no training + mastering powers on the spot + yet not that bright = the strongest in the series ?? .................. yep that's what i call a colossal mess.

and ya -o SHux- killer bee is not young/had a long time to master the eight tail's power to become a master at using it while naruto ................. well you know how long it took him to use kurama's power, was it two chapters ?? can't remember.
 
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Lucidus

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Who mastered a power up in one chapter? When Naruto got rasengan he needed to train with it. He's only good at it now because of his 3 year training. Same thing with Sasuke's chidori, Kakashi's chidori-lightning blade, etc And ofc the other jinchuriki's have massive chakra pools just not as big as Kuramas. And each tailed beast gives their jinchuriki different abilities. Killer Bee's is spewing out ink, and tentacles out of his body, and Naruto's is massive healing, and sensing hatred among his enemies. And I only know of only two people who can take on a full powered Kurama and that's Madara and Hashirama and Naruto hasn't surpassed any of them so your point is?

exactly this here.... there really isnt much more to say
 

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oh of course i didn't see them train BUT it's LAME/an ass pull, also did that include all the fights/training naruto had looking at his fighting style which always includes shadow clones .................... coz last time i checked he wasn't doing so good, this method wasn't really working until kakashi stated it ....................... (used shadow clone when trained with jiraiya for 3 years yet susage kicked his ass).

like i said a shinobi (all about skill/technicalities) that get a BIG power up, and masters it in one chapter is just ridiculous specially when we are constantly reminded that naruto isn't that bright.

plus when was the last time he trained yet look at where he is right now ........................ no training/mastering powers on the spot/yet not that bright .................. yep that's what i call a colossal mess.

yes naruto's fighting style wasnt the best but that changed when he obtained sage mode... also naruto might be a little stupid.. however he is resourceful and has proven that he isnt as stupid as everyone thinks.. he has a different type of smarts in battle... the only thing is.. he doesnt always analyse the battle...

i will admit that i really am not that fond of ninja's being on such a scale.. i prefere part 1 a thousand times better than part 2 but going back to the thread topic.. its really not that surprising that naruto and sasuke became so strong..
 

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oh of course i didn't see them train BUT it's LAME/an ass pull, also did that include all the fights/training naruto had looking at his fighting style which always includes shadow clones .................... coz last time i checked he wasn't doing so good, this method wasn't really working until kakashi stated it ....................... (used shadow clones when he trained with jiraiya for 3 years yet susage kicked his ass at the first meeting).

like i said a shinobi (all about skill/technicalities/practice) that gets a BIG power up, and masters it in one chapter is just ridiculous specially when we are constantly reminded that naruto isn't that bright (so he is not skilled as a shinobi but somehow managed to reach this point at this age).

plus when was the last time he trained (supposed to be the guy who is not bright but a monster in training) yet look at where he is right now ........................ no training + mastering powers on the spot + yet not that bright = the strongest in the series ?? .................. yep that's what i call a colossal mess.

and ya -o SHux- killer bee is not young/had a long time to master the eight tail's power to become a master at using it while naruto ................. well you know how long it took him to use kurama's power.

He trained at that waterfall place to get KCM,fighting kurama,etc. And also it's not like Naruto completly mastered KCM or BM Kishi showed that he still needs training with it. When he first tried to speed blitz he got his foot stuck in the wall cause he couldn't control the speed all that much. Hence why he hasn't speed blitz Obito even though he had many chances to do so. Just cause he can do it doesn't mean he mastered it. And also Naruto isn't really dumb he has a goofy personality. There's a difference and there's also all sorts of different types of smarts out there. Look at Hashirama,Naruto,Goku,etc. They're not the brightest right? But they all have one common thing battle smarts. Just look at Narutp's unique fighting style of how he uses his clones, or how he knew he couldn't use rasengan cause of his massive chakra thus messing up his chakra control so he decided to use a shadow clone to help him. Or use extra arms to help him in KCM that's pretty clever if you ask me.
 
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JIRAIYA perv

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yes naruto's fighting style wasnt the best but that changed when he obtained sage mode... also naruto might be a little stupid.. however he is resourceful and has proven that he isnt as stupid as everyone thinks.. he has a different type of smarts in battle... the only thing is.. he doesnt always analyse the battle...

i will admit that i really am not that fond of ninja's being on such a scale.. i prefere part 1 a thousand times better than part 2 but going back to the thread topic.. its really not that surprising that naruto and sasuke became so strong..

like i said bro, this shadow clone training method just came out of no where, in all of naruto's fights/training, no one ever pointed it out/never mattered or made a difference and where is all the knowledge/training he received from using shadow clones all the time (if the method was true/consistent then why did sasuke kick his ass), why did it only matter when kakashi stated it ??

anyways, at least we agree on part 1 being awesome power wise :win: no flying/Super Sayan/a bit messy but still it had a better power scale ..................... some originality.
 
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Lucidus

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like i said bro, this shadow clone training method just came out of no where, in all of naruto's fights/training, no one ever pointed it out and where is all the knowledge/training he received from using shadow clones all the time (if the method was true/consistent then why did sasuke kick his ass), why did it only matter when kakashi stated it ??

anyways, at least we agree on part 1 being awesome power wise :win: no flying/Super Sayan ..................... some originality.

the clone training did pretty much come out of knowhere but thats kishi for u.. he needed a way for naruto to get stronger a little faster.. so he made one.. it was the same with dbz... and the time chamber..

but yes i prefered the originality of part 1 and where the fights came down to better skill and strategy and not just pure power.. but meh
 

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like i said bro, this shadow clone training method just came out of no where, in all of naruto's fights/training, no one ever pointed it out and where is all the knowledge/training he received from using shadow clones all the time (if the method was true/consistent then why did sasuke kick his ass), why did it only matter when kakashi stated it ??

anyways, at least we agree on part 1 being awesome power wise :win: no flying/Super Sayan/a bit messy but still it had a better power scale ..................... some originality.

It probably came from his training with Jiraiya. I mean come on he wasn't that adept at it when he was a kid but after his 3 years of training he is now. It's pretty obvious. And what do you mean knowledge? A lot of jounins can use it we've seen many people using many variations of this jutsu. Kakashi and his lightning clones, Itachi and his crow clones, Zabuza and his water clones,etc. And Sasuke beat him simply because he had better training.
 

JIRAIYA perv

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the clone training did pretty much come out of knowhere but thats kishi for u.. he needed a way for naruto to get stronger a little faster.. so he made one.. it was the same with dbz... and the time chamber..

but yes i prefered the originality of part 1 and where the fights came down to better skill and strategy and not just pure power.. but meh

i already told you it was an ass pull and please don't ever bring the awesome DBZ into this, at least DBZ had originality and started the whole idea :p (the time chamber was awesome/years inside were like days in the real world, now that's original) just messing with you.

It probably came from his training with Jiraiya. I mean come on he wasn't that adept at it when he was a kid but after his 3 years of training he is now. It's pretty obvious. And what do you mean knowledge? A lot of jounins can use it we've seen many people using many variations of this jutsu. Kakashi and his lightning clones, Itachi and his crow clones, Zabuza and his water clones,etc. And Sasuke beat him simply because he had better training.

lets leave it at that bro and agree to disagree :heh: you think the development was reasonable, i don't (doesn't mean that i hate the whole series/just pointing out what i don't like).
 
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AGoodBoy

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What legends did he surpass please list them. And you forget that Naruto has kurama which gives him a shit load of chakra.

No lol I was AFK doing something else. I don't actually camp thread i make. I make a few posts and let people take out whatever they want from it. I can't really change anyone's mind, just put out my perspective.


Anyway @Your post about soloing my own thread. That's actually untrue unless you believe those battles were enough to take him from pre shippuuden to now. Battling and training is different. In battle you get battle knowledge and some better skills, but you can't really train your skills since you're not consistently practicing it over and over to hone the skills. All you're doing is using what you know to get battle tact. There's a reason people train years upon years before going into battle instead of just getting minimal training and tossed into battle. Sure, first hand experience is good, but when you practice certain things on your own, you can get more progression (Running, Strength training, Fighting techniques, etc). You can't really practice new techniques mid fight.

Naruto was way above Sakura df are you talking about??

Sakura didn't parr shit even current Sakura gets fodderized by Tsunade.
Lol, way above. Ok then. Naruto was on the level of the rest of K11 at that point. Not because he learn Rasenshuriken a bunch of chapters later means he wasn't on their level.

Sakura isn't on par with tsunade? Katsuya, Tsunade level medical ninjutsu, tsunade or better level antipoison mastery? All sakura's missing is Byakugo which she most likely has considering it's simply a matter of releasing the Yin seal which is on her forhead. Not my fault if you don't want to believe sakura has parred if not surpassed her sannin also

Your last passage makes no sense. Being a prodigy has nothing to do with what era you grew up in, some people are just born naturally stronger than others. FYI, itachi didn't experience war, he only saw war when he was 4. A 4 year old wouldn't fight in a war, yet he grew up to be a gem among the powerful uchiha clan. 3tomoe sasuke Parring with Itachi, who mastered his sharingan at 8, after 3 years of first unlocking his 1/2 tomoe Sharingan doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it.



@Kirikoe
You completely and utterly missed the point anyway. Jiraiya trained for years with the toads and on SM, but could never perfect it. Naruto came in for 1 week to 1 month with 4 shadow clones, decreasing time by 1/4. Therefore, naruto essentially had 1-4 months of SM training and he perfected it on the level of hashirama who's been in war from childhood. If that makes sense to you, then ok.

Shadow clones were used for rasengan mostly. I'm not talking about rasengan progression, that's understandable. After that one off, he barely used clones ever again to train. If he did when he was training with jiraiya, then his progression was pitiful. I also forgot to mention the chapter (when he was training Rasenshuriken) where it's sad naruto should suffer Shadow clone whiplash. That was completely thrown out the door the second he learnt Rasenshuriken. All that ontop of naruto being consistently called an idiot by the author.

As for the Sasuke and itachi thing. Sickness has nothing to do with the scan I showed you. Itachi's sickness didn't beat him down that bad that his skills were so terrible. A few chapters before Kakashi and naruto were needed to take on itachi, and itachi also completely disgraced naruto. Ontop of the fact that Sasuke got strong enough to take on the new K11, it's clear that he was just very strong by this point. Itachi's sickness only hit him hard once he opened up his MS moves, which happened after the scan I showed you. Not even counting Sasuke countering Itachi's Genjutsu's...

Your next point about orochimaru is pretty useless as orochimaru didn't teach sasuke anything from his moveset. All sasuke got off oro was some Refinement of his techniques, A cm that sucked his chakra, and orochimaru's skills (body replacement, shadow sleeve snakes) after he absorbed him. None of Which increases base sasuke's strength, speed, ninjutsu, kenjutsu, etc. Which was pretty parred with itachi. The only drawback sasuke had from itachi at that point was literally shadow clone jutsu, jutsu execution speed, and intelligence.

Umm... MS sasuke is infact on itachi's level. Especially danzo arc Sasuke. As for your point about recklessly, that's completely and utterly foolish a point to make. Sasuke's technically a genin, and after fighting Itachi. He was thrust into fighting a perfect jin, then 4 kage, then a hokage, then Kakashi. Are you saying that eeven itachi would go through this gauntlet without having to resort to his MS? Don't be foolish. Unlike itachi, sasuke never had a break to get the hang of his MS before he was forced to use it. As for MS mastery, that's debateable seeing as sasuke had better amaterasu mastery and later attained CS... Clearly itachi would have some better mastery during his time when he had MS for 10+ years while sasuke had it for, what, 2 weeks...?
 
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AGoodBoy

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Who mastered a power up in one chapter? When Naruto got rasengan he needed to train with it. He's only good at it now because of his 3 year training. Same thing with Sasuke's chidori, Kakashi's chidori-lightning blade, etc And ofc the other jinchuriki's have massive chakra pools just not as big as Kuramas. And each tailed beast gives their jinchuriki different abilities. Killer Bee's is spewing out ink, and tentacles out of his body, and Naruto's is massive healing, and sensing hatred among his enemies. And I only know of only two people who can take on a full powered Kurama and that's Madara and Hashirama and Naruto hasn't surpassed any of them so your point is?

guess we forgot about amaterasu now didn't we. Sasuke Used it and put it out in the same chapter. Next fight he was manipulating it. He mastered his amaterasu in pretty much 1 chapter.

Guess we also forgot about Chakra arms. Naruto pretty much pulled that out from vote and completely mastered it from there. Not even minato's been capable of using it atm. Then there's obito's chakra arms. Obito using TBB, omnyoudon and 6 side barrier. Oh boy... There's a bit really.
 

JIRAIYA perv

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guess we forgot about amaterasu now didn't we. Sasuke Used it and put it out in the same chapter. Next fight he was manipulating it. He mastered his amaterasu in pretty much 1 chapter.

Guess we also forgot about Chakra arms. Naruto pretty much pulled that out from vote and completely mastered it from there. Not even minato's been capable of using it atm. Then there's obito's chakra arms. Obito using TBB, omnyoudon and 6 side barrier. Oh boy... There's a bit really.

it's alright bro, he is just arguing in "defensive mode", maybe he just likes the series too much so calm down.

like i said naruto and sasuke indeed get power ups and master it on the spot which is beyond me :erm:
 

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Its easy really. They're late bloomers. Some geniuses start out early perfecting their craft but late bloomers perfect it later and usually surpass their early bloomer counterparts.

Also I notice team 7 plays into the school hierarchy stereotype.

• Naruto is the big dumb jock who is physically stronger than everybody but is stupid as a sack of potatoes. Usually becomes popular just because.

• Sasuke is the loner who silently gets stronger and plans to shoot up the school. He's more intelligent than most.

• Sakura is the nerd who is book smart but isn't as tactical as the jocks and is usually picked on and bullied.

This hierarchy is even played out on the base. Naruto is popular but secretly disliked, Sasuke creeps people puf so they hate on him or he has people obsessed with him, and sakura is bullied and made fun of while only a few value her.
 

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No lol I was AFK doing something else. I don't actually camp thread i make. I make a few posts and let people take out whatever they want from it. I can't really change anyone's mind, just put out my perspective.


Anyway @Your post about soloing my own thread. That's actually untrue unless you believe those battles were enough to take him from pre shippuuden to now. Battling and training is different. In battle you get battle knowledge and some better skills, but you can't really train your skills since you're not consistently practicing it over and over to hone the skills. All you're doing is using what you know to get battle tact. There's a reason people train years upon years before going into battle instead of just getting minimal training and tossed into battle. Sure, first hand experience is good, but when you practice certain things on your own, you can get more progression (Running, Strength training, Fighting techniques, etc). You can't really practice new techniques mid fight.


Lol, way above. Ok then. Naruto was on the level of the rest of K11 at that point. Not because he learn Rasenshuriken a bunch of chapters later means he wasn't on their level.

Sakura isn't on par with tsunade? Katsuya, Tsunade level medical ninjutsu, tsunade or better level antipoison mastery? All sakura's missing is Byakugo which she most likely has considering it's simply a matter of releasing the Yin seal which is on her forhead. Not my fault if you don't want to believe sakura has parred if not surpassed her sannin also

Your last passage makes no sense. Being a prodigy has nothing to do with what era you grew up in, some people are just born naturally stronger than others. FYI, itachi didn't experience war, he only saw war when he was 4. A 4 year old wouldn't fight in a war, yet he grew up to be a gem among the powerful uchiha clan. 3tomoe sasuke Parring with Itachi, who mastered his sharingan at 8, after 3 years of first unlocking his 1/2 tomoe Sharingan doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it.



@Kirikoe
You completely and utterly missed the point anyway. Jiraiya trained for years with the toads and on SM, but could never perfect it. Naruto came in for 1 week to 1 month with 4 shadow clones, decreasing time by 1/4. Therefore, naruto essentially had 1-4 months of SM training and he perfected it on the level of hashirama who's been in war from childhood. If that makes sense to you, then ok.

Shadow clones were used for rasengan mostly. I'm not talking about rasengan progression, that's understandable. After that one off, he barely used clones ever again to train. If he did when he was training with jiraiya, then his progression was pitiful. I also forgot to mention the chapter (when he was training Rasenshuriken) where it's sad naruto should suffer Shadow clone whiplash. That was completely thrown out the door the second he learnt Rasenshuriken. All that ontop of naruto being consistently called an idiot by the author.

As for the Sasuke and itachi thing. Sickness has nothing to do with the scan I showed you. Itachi's sickness didn't beat him down that bad that his skills were so terrible. A few chapters before Kakashi and naruto were needed to take on itachi, and itachi also completely disgraced naruto. Ontop of the fact that Sasuke got strong enough to take on the new K11, it's clear that he was just very strong by this point. Itachi's sickness only hit him hard once he opened up his MS moves, which happened after the scan I showed you. Not even counting Sasuke countering Itachi's Genjutsu's...

Your next point about orochimaru is pretty useless as orochimaru didn't teach sasuke anything from his moveset. All sasuke got off oro was some Refinement of his techniques, A cm that sucked his chakra, and orochimaru's skills (body replacement, shadow sleeve snakes) after he absorbed him. None of Which increases base sasuke's strength, speed, ninjutsu, kenjutsu, etc. Which was pretty parred with itachi. The only drawback sasuke had from itachi at that point was literally shadow clone jutsu, jutsu execution speed, and intelligence.

Umm... MS sasuke is infact on itachi's level. Especially danzo arc Sasuke. As for your point about recklessly, that's completely and utterly foolish a point to make. Sasuke's technically a genin, and after fighting Itachi. He was thrust into fighting a perfect jin, then 4 kage, then a hokage, then Kakashi. Are you saying that eeven itachi would go through this gauntlet without having to resort to his MS? Don't be foolish. Unlike itachi, sasuke never had a break to get the hang of his MS before he was forced to use it. As for MS mastery, that's debateable seeing as sasuke had better amaterasu mastery and later attained CS... Clearly itachi would have some better mastery during his time when he had MS for 10+ years while sasuke had it for, what, 2 weeks...?

i dont see how i missed the point considering the point was that they advanced very quickly... i agree with that... i never said i didnt... i just said with what they have been through it isnt that surprising tbh..

also jiraiya did get more training than naruto for sage mode.. however it was said he was learning sage mode alongside everything else... where as naruto got 2 straight weeks doing nothing but training for sage mode with atleast 3-4 clones..

also u say bringing up about orochimaru was pointless.. how so? he taught sasuke non the less... sasuke didnt get his kenjutsu from knowhere.. sasuke didnt get kirin from knowhere.. aswell as other things..

also u brang up the war with hashirama... if anything its more of a surprise hashirama got such a perfect sage mode since he lived in a time of war and should had very little time to train in sage mode...
 

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guess we forgot about amaterasu now didn't we. Sasuke Used it and put it out in the same chapter. Next fight he was manipulating it. He mastered his amaterasu in pretty much 1 chapter.

Guess we also forgot about Chakra arms. Naruto pretty much pulled that out from vote and completely mastered it from there. Not even minato's been capable of using it atm. Then there's obito's chakra arms. Obito using TBB, omnyoudon and 6 side barrier. Oh boy... There's a bit really.

Sasuke didn't master it he used it unwisly. Spamming and mastering are two different things. And the reason why Sasuke can manipulate and put it out is because he has enton those are his two abilities. Casting Amaterastu with one eye and manipulating it with the other he doesn't have tsukiyomi like Itachi. And again Minato can't use it cause he just entered it. As for Obito Madara taught him knowledge about Jutsu he probably knew how to cast them but never had the means,chakra,etc to be able to do so now that he's the ten tails host he can. Hence why he was able to control the kyuubi at the age of 14. Did you forget who his teacher was?
 

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"Naruto - Shit at skills. Shit at grades. Stupid."

That's past tense...
Now, Naruto is... pretty much highly skilled. There are no grades in real life. Won't say genius but definitely not stupid...
 

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this is NOT a question of their training..

I've always thought their development was exceptionally quick. Naruto has already surpassed his father who is ''once in a life time genius''.. He already surpassed Jiraya who got his legendary sanin status, Sasuke has already surpassed Itachi who gets hailed and hailed over and over and over again..


The training is not the point, the thing is how they can actually pull this off at the age of 16 and 17 -__-
 

AGoodBoy

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Sasuke didn't master it he used it unwisly. Spamming and mastering are two different things. And the reason why Sasuke can manipulate and put it out is because he has enton those are his two abilities. Casting Amaterastu with one eye and manipulating it with the other he doesn't have tsukiyomi like Itachi. And again Minato can't use it cause he just entered it. As for Obito Madara taught him knowledge about Jutsu he probably knew how to cast them but never had the means,chakra,etc to be able to do so now that he's the ten tails host he can. Hence why he was able to control the kyuubi at the age of 14. Did you forget who his teacher was?

Are you trying to be funny, guy? Ok then, since you want to find excuses. Find an Excuse for this:

Naruto is He couldn't do it . So, naruto and practices the . He's only had the scroll for before . Wait, did i say learnt? I meant . For Reference, Rasengan and chidori are A-rank jutsu. Naruto Mastered a B rank jutsu in 12 hours(1 chapter) to the extent that he could the very next chapter( the next day).

This was all during the first 2 chapters of naruto. Your entire argument was destroyed at the start of the show.

"Naruto - Shit at skills. Shit at grades. Stupid."

That's past tense...
Now, Naruto is... pretty much highly skilled. There are no grades in real life. Won't say genius but definitely not stupid...

uhh... Exactly...? I was giving a summary from the paragrraph before, comparing them from part 1 to now... Naruto was complete shit at jutsu, grades, and was a moron... Never said it was the same now...

The training is not the point, the thing is how they can actually pull this off at the age of 16 and 17 -__-

Exactly... Everyone else, even the geniuses, had to wait till their mid/late twenties and beyond to really unlock their full potential, which is dwarfed by these guys at the age of 16...
 
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