[FEAR] Truth Behind Mokuton and KKG's

[FearxDeath]

This thread has been completely re-written and remodeled as of 8/2/2013

I recommend you walk into this thread with a very open mind ... Hashirama fan boys are gonna hate me for this one.

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There seems to be this misconception amoung the members of NB about how KKG's work in general. In this thread I further break down this concept, this may be a little obvious at times but I think it should be said.

How I work​

Spoiler

I am going to start putting this at the start of all my threads so people understand how I come to the conclusions I come to.

It is something called deductive reasoning which is pretty simple, I take a fact, then based on that fact I form a deduction. For Example:

1) All men are mortal [Fact]
2) Bob is a man [Fact]
3) Bob is mortal [Deduction]

As you can see the statement "Bob is mortal" is on its own non-conclusive, but when paired with the Facts that proceed it the statement also becomes a Fact. For someone to say that "Bob is not Mortal" they must first prove that "All men are not mortal" or that "Bob is not a man."

My threads are the same way, I take a scan maybe 2 or 3. These scans state certain Manga Facts or from said scans a Manga Fact can be implied, then from these Facts I form a Deduction. Simple as that.

What is a KKG?​

Spoiler

In the following scans Yamato and Kakashi break down exactly what a KKG is and how Elemental KKG's like Wood Release and Ice Release are attained and used.

Spoiler

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Now here we see that Mokuton itself is not an Element that is passed down but rather it is the mixture of 2 Different Elements. Now the Ability for a Clan to use 2 Elements at once is known as a KKG.

KKG's Work in Mysterious ways?​

Spoiler

So here is what we know so far about KKG's in general.

1) They are a bloodline trait, which means anyone in the Family can access them.
2) In order to access them you must have 2 or even 3 of the required Nature Types.

So then the question becomes why haven't their been any other Senju with Mokuton. It seems simple enough? Any Senju can access it as long as they have Mastered both Water and Earth style, Kakashi himself already said that most Jounin level ninja have mastered 2 different Nature types. It stands to reason that their would have been a Senju with both Water and Earth Styles at some point in time prior to Hashirama.

One can even further infer that the Senju's Base Nature type may very well be Water Type. Kakashi did say that the Uchiha's Base Style was Fire [

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], and with the Senju being their counterpart it stands to reason that their Nature Style would also counter the Uchiha's, so with that in mind, theoretically it would only take 1 Senju member with an additional Nature Type of Earth to unlock Wood Release.

No Other Mokuton User's?​

Spoiler

I believe Hashirama was the only one to attain Mokuton because he was the only one to be born with both Water and Earth Style Releases, as oppose to being born with one and learning the other.

It seems to be a lot easier for someone born with a Nature Release to master it [

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], then again that goes without saying. But from the scan with Yamato he says that even someone born with both styles it can still be difficult to master. Consider that in Hiruzens old age and with his expertise in master jutsu even he was only able to master 2 Nature Types, or so we have seen.

Think of it like Dunking. A person who is 6'5ft tall with hard work and training can dunk fairly easily, while a person that is 5'8 may also be able to dunk, but the chances are fairly slim and the amount of work that would have to be put behind doing so is absurd. As a matter of fact the shortest known dunker in the NBA to date is Nate Robinson and he is 5'9.

It is my idea that using KKG is a lot like dunking in that people who are born with both Nature Types are effectively "Taller" than those who are born without it who would be "Shorter". Now both can still Dunk, but it is a lot easier for the Taller person to do so, and even with that he would have to work hard to as not all 6'5 Players can dunk.

Conclusion​

Spoiler

The reason we haven't seen more Senju using Mokuton isn't because they cannot, but infact is because... well they simply cannot.

You get to the same conclusion with or without my thread, mine simply shine a light on the situation. And with that it is my belief that all Senju have the potential to be able to use Mokuton.


Note that their is a scan where Tsunade is ridiculed for not being able to use Mokuton although she is a Senju, this leads me to believe that she would have been expected to be able to. Which itself contradicts the idea that Mokuton is rare amoung the Senju. This is something I have been thinking about for some while, person Hashirama isn't the first Mokuton user, but was simply the strongest. Much like Madara wasn't the first to unlock the EMS but he was the strongest Uchiha to use it so far.

*This leads me into the idea that Tobirama may be able to use Mokuton to a extremely far lesser extent than Hashirama.*

Enjoy the Read!​

 

[Draxus]

Stone village didn't exist back then. No way Hasiramq isn't pure Senju.

Brothers can have different chakra natures. Look at Itachi (fire/water) & Sasuke (fire/lightning)

 

[Zorø]

interesting theory didnt get the mud blood part though

 

[OopsWrongHole]

It was a good attempt _@:

 

[Avinash012]

Hum some of ur points makes sence and Nic theory............


1.No one ever mentioned in Manga that KKG is limited for only clans
2.There are planty of ppl with rare KKG without being a part of specific clan just like Hashirama
3.One should born with 2 nature affinities to gain access to a KKG ,u can't master it with Hardwork or training
4.How could some one from Kumogakure would have Earth as Main affinity...........? most of them are lightng users isn't it.....?
5.First hidden village in shinobi world is Konoha and the founder of Konoha is Hashirama ......Kumogakure didn't exist by the time of Hashirama's birth......
6.Uchiha's main affinity is Fire not wind...........
7.Any one that can creat a new element by usng more than one element is a KKG user
6.Clans like Uchiha,Hyuga,Juugo's clan,Seigetsu's clan and Kimimaro's clan had KKG's

There are planty of ppl who had no sharingan among the Uchiha (Stated by Sasuke when he saw Kakashi's sharingan for the first time)

Abt Water style beng main affinity of Senju to counter Uchiha's fire style....Nic find ..

 

[Avinash012]

Stone village didn't exist back then. No way Hasiramq isn't pure Senju.

Brothers can have different chakra natures. Look at Itachi (fire/water) & Sasuke (fire/lightning)

Kumogakure means hidden cloud not hidden Stone.......................

Fire is common element for every Uchiha and even a fodder from Uchiha clan can use Fire style......................

 

[FearxDeath]

Hum some of ur points makes sence and Nic theory............


1.No one ever mentioned in Manga that KKG is limited for only clans
2.There are planty of ppl with rare KKG without being a part of specific clan just like Hashirama
3.One should born with 2 nature affinities to gain access to a KKG ,u can't master it with Hardwork or training
4.How could some one from Kumogakure would have Earth as Main affinity...........? most of them are lightng users isn't it.....?
5.First hidden village in shinobi world is Konoha and the founder of Konoha is Hashirama ......Kumogakure didn't exist by the time of Hashirama's birth......
6.Uchiha's main affinity is Fire not wind...........
7.Any one that can creat a new element by usng more than one element is a KKG user
6.Clans like Uchiha,Hyuga,Juugo's clan,Seigetsu's clan and Kimimaro's clan had KKG's

There are planty of ppl who had no sharingan among the Uchiha (Stated by Sasuke when he saw Kakashi's sharingan for the first time)

Abt Water style beng main affinity of Senju to counter Uchiha's fire style....Nic find ..

I gave you a scan in my thread where Kakashi directly states that in order to have a KKG you have to be born into a clan that has said bloodline.

Based on your first 2 points I am 100% sure that you either don't know what I am talking about or what you are talking about. I am not sure which one yet.

 

[Draxus]

Kumogakure means hidden cloud not hidden Stone.......................

Fire is common element for every Uchiha and even a fodder from Uchiha clan can use Fire style......................

Not sure why you quoted me on this. The OP was the one who messed up the name not me. Fire element being common among Uchiha is irrelevant to my point, which is brothers can had different infinities even if they share one

I gave you a scan in my thread where Kakashi directly states that in order to have a KKG you have to be born into a clan that has said bloodline.

Based on your first 2 points I am 100% sure that you either don't know what I am talking about or what you are talking about. I am not sure which one yet.

Onoki wasn't born with particle release he learn it from Muu.

Apparently of you're talented enough and have iffinites you don't have to be born with it

 

[FearxDeath]

Onoki wasn't born with particle release he learn it from Muu.

Apparently of you're talented enough and have iffinites you don't have to be born with it

Albeit a bad source at times it should be credible in something as general as this:

The wiki states that Oonoki has Fire, Earth and Wind Releases. [

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]. Provide me with evidence to the contrary if you want me to even consider your point.

 

[valandil988]

If it is a true elemental KKG as you say and not a throw back to the senju ancestor then why didn't the senju clan have a more stable KKG, as in they produced more dual affinity children than normal? That is what seems to happen in most clans with these blood-limits for example the Yuki clan, they were feared for their KKG ninjutsu, it wouldn't exactly be fearsome if only on person every few generations could use it lol. I don't believe that a clan waits around for the one child to be born in 5 generations with a dual affinity for their "clan" bloodline to come out; hardly anyone would know they even had a bloodline to begin with if those are the kinds of scales your working with.

Dual (natural) affinities are rare enough without tightening your pool of applicants, IE if you take the Senju clan for example if they don't produce more dual affinities kids than normal then its quite possible that Hashirama was the first to express the Mokuton talent. But Hashirama was more than just a dual affinity he had other goodies stashed in that DNA of his.

Orochimaru took a distinct interest in the Mokuton, specifically Hashirama if there had been other Mokuton users to study or simply other Senju, who if as you say all have the potential to wield Mokuton, then why did he focus on an individual who you would argue had the hardest genetic material to obtain. Was Orochimaru interested in the elemental release of mokuton or was it the powerful chakra that Hashirama produced?

Hashirama was long dead by the time that Orochimaru conducted his experiments, why not simply work with regular Senju DNA. Hashirama is eluded to being a one in a hundred perhaps a one in a thousand individual with how "pure" and strong his ancestor's (The younger son) legacy comes through in him.

It opens a question, is the Senju KKG a recessive gene? where as the Uchiha's Dojutsu is a progressive one? It would make sense considering the Elder son's Dojutsu mutated again to create the Sharingan which was far more common, where as Mokuton seems to come straight from the Juubi without mutation.

But Hashirama's Mokuton isn't just Earth and Water is it? It creating life from chakra. Thats what makes it so powerful its an aspect of the Sages ability to create something from nothing, the ability to imbue life with chakra. This also explains that while Yamato is capable of creating the "wood" element it isn't much more useful than Yoton or Hyouton against a Biju.

But this is a sticking point where as Yamato is not from the Senju clan they repeatedly keep calling him a psuedo clone of Hashirama (which makes no sense to me at all); Orochimaru managed to insert the "KKG" part of Mokuton into Yamato. Ergo Yamato can mold the "wood" element but it lacks the Senju ancestor's legacy of strong vitality and yang chakra.

However if every Senju could "become" a pseudo Mokuton user then why is Hashirama such a freak? Its more like his cells are made from Juubi goo than anything else....I always attributed being able to use Mokuton as having a body similar to that of the juubi's shell.

Then we end up back with it not really being a traditional KKG which is more common within a clan, its more like an unique ability than a blood limit.

I donno just putting this out here. Mostly just putting forward questions for you to answer.

 

[valandil988]

Albeit a bad source at times it should be credible in something as general as this:

The wiki states that Oonoki has Fire, Earth and Wind Releases. [

You must be registered for see links

]. Provide me with evidence to the contrary if you want me to even consider your point.

Well Mu wasnt Onoki's father...so how does Onoki wield the dust release?

 

[Draxus]

Albeit a bad source at times it should be credible in something as general as this:

The wiki states that Oonoki has Fire, Earth and Wind Releases. [

You must be registered for see links

]. Provide me with evidence to the contrary if you want me to even consider your point.

Wait... I meant dust release! He uses it all the time... Dust release is when he mixing Earth, Wind, and Fire to create an attack the destroys things at a particle level.

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

If it is a true elemental KKG as you say and not a throw back to the senju ancestor then why didn't the senju clan have a more stable KKG, as in they produced more dual affinity children than normal? That is what seems to happen in most clans with these blood-limits for example the Yuki clan, they were feared for their KKG ninjutsu, it wouldn't exactly be fearsome if only on person every few generations could use it lol. I don't believe that a clan waits around for the one child to be born in 5 generations with a dual affinity for their "clan" bloodline to come out; hardly anyone would know they even had a bloodline to begin with if those are the kinds of scales your working with.

Dual (natural) affinities are rare enough without tightening your pool of applicants, IE if you take the Senju clan for example if they don't produce more dual affinities kids than normal then its quite possible that Hashirama was the first to express the Mokuton talent. But Hashirama was more than just a dual affinity he had other goodies stashed in that DNA of his.

Orochimaru took a distinct interest in the Mokuton, specifically Hashirama if there had been other Mokuton users to study or simply other Senju, who if as you say all have the potential to wield Mokuton, then why did he focus on an individual who you would argue had the hardest genetic material to obtain. Was Orochimaru interested in the elemental release of mokuton or was it the powerful chakra that Hashirama produced?

Hashirama was long dead by the time that Orochimaru conducted his experiments, why not simply work with regular Senju DNA. Hashirama is eluded to being a one in a hundred perhaps a one in a thousand individual with how "pure" and strong his ancestor's (The younger son) legacy comes through in him.

It opens a question, is the Senju KKG a recessive gene? where as the Uchiha's Dojutsu is a progressive one? It would make sense considering the Elder son's Dojutsu mutated again to create the Sharingan which was far more common, where as Mokuton seems to come straight from the Juubi without mutation.

But Hashirama's Mokuton isn't just Earth and Water is it? It creating life from chakra. Thats what makes it so powerful its an aspect of the Sages ability to create something from nothing, the ability to imbue life with chakra. This also explains that while Yamato is capable of creating the "wood" element it isn't much more useful than Yoton or Hyouton against a Biju.

But this is a sticking point where as Yamato is not from the Senju clan they repeatedly keep calling him a psuedo clone of Hashirama (which makes no sense to me at all); Orochimaru managed to insert the "KKG" part of Mokuton into Yamato. Ergo Yamato can mold the "wood" element but it lacks the Senju ancestor's legacy of strong vitality and yang chakra.

However if every Senju could "become" a pseudo Mokuton user then why is Hashirama such a freak? Its more like his cells are made from Juubi goo than anything else....I always attributed being able to use Mokuton as having a body similar to that of the juubi's shell.

Then we end up back with it not really being a traditional KKG which is more common within a clan, its more like an unique ability than a blood limit.

I donno just putting this out here. Mostly just putting forward questions for you to answer.

1) In response to your first few parahraps I am a little uncertain of what you are talking about? Are you arguing against what Kakashi himself said "A special jutsu that only those born into the Blood Line with the Kekkie genkia can use?" Because in order to argue against that you would either need to prove him wrong or find a way to discredit him which you have not done, you pretty much just said "Aww I don't know about this, I believe something else without good reason..." Your first 4 Paragraphs seem like a waste as I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

2) Hashirama's Mokuton is just Earth and Water as Yamato got his Mokuton directly from Hashirama and he confirms this statement, Yamato DOES possess Hashirama's cells, which is why Kabuto was able to make White Zetsu, who also contains some of Hashirama's cells, stronger by mixing in Yamato's DNA.

3) I explain that the reason Hashirama Is a "freak" is because unlike the other members who may have had to learn a secondary Nature then learn Mokuton, Hashirama was born with 2 Nature making It easier for him to acquire Mokuton.

4) Unique ability? Did you just make this up? Your going to have to elaborate on this a bit for me to understand the point you are trying to make.

I appreciate your questions, although they could have been better x__x, if you have any others or if I didn't fully answer your current ones I would be more than willing to address them. Just keep in mind that this is again, Deductive Logic, I take a fact that is put out in the Manga and create a deduction that logically stems from that fact. Thus to challenge the deduction one must first challenge the fact. For instance.

1) All men are mortal [Fact]
2) Bob is a man [Fact]
3) Bob is mortal. [Deduction]

In order to challenge #3 you must first challenge #1 or #2, because if #1 or #2 are true then logically speaking #3 must also be true. For Bob to not be mortal either #1 must be false and thus all men are not mortal or #2 must be false and bob is not a man.

Wait... are seriously asking me to prove Oonki has Particle release? He uses it all the time! Particle release he mixing Earth, Wind, and Fire to create an attack the destroys things at a particle level.

No I want you to prove this "Apparently of you're talented enough and have iffinites you don't have to be born with it". He was born with a Kekkia Tota, this allowed him to master Particle Release.

What I mean is that Hashirama was not born with Mokuton, he was born with Earth and Water release which made it easier for him to learn mokuton. Just like Oonoki was born with Fire, Earth and Wind release, which in turn made it easier for him to learn Dust Release.

Btw this statement is incredibly redundant "Onoki wasn't born with particle release he learn it from Muu."

 

[FearxDeath]

Well Mu wasnt Onoki's father...so how does Onoki wield the dust release?

They could be related, Your cousin isn't your father but you share the same blood am I right? It is possible that they could also be distantly related, as the manga doesn't explain how much of a KKG blood lines heritage is required for said KKG to be accessible. Could someone who isn't only 1/128th Senju still get it? I am not sure, after all Naruto is only 1/2 Uzumaki and yet he is by far the strongest Uzumaki we have seen in the manga.

 

[Draxus]

1

No I want you to prove this "Apparently of you're talented enough and have iffinites you don't have to be born with it". He was born with a Kekkia Tota, this allowed him to master Particle Release.

What I mean is that Hashirama was not born with Mokuton, he was born with Earth and Water release which made it easier for him to learn mokuton. Just like Oonoki was born with Fire, Earth and Wind release, which in turn made it easier for him to learn Dust Release.

Btw this statement is incredibly redundant "Onoki wasn't born with particle release he learn it from Muu."

In the post I replied to you said KKG come from people born of a particular bloodline. However Oonoki proves it can be learned. My sentence isn't redundant... the 1st part states something different from the 2nd.

I'm not being redundant, you're being contrary

 

[Meowazziel]

Interesting post.
I agree with the most of it.

Just wanting to make sure of a few things.

So as I understand, someone is born with a kekkei genkai to mix elements to form the kekkei genkai release.
1-If you are born with this and with the water and earth elements, than you can use wood release.
2-If you are not born with those elements or with only one of them, than you need to learn the remaining element and the chances of learning wood release are made more difficult this way.

3-Or is it, you are born with a kekkei genkai to mix elements AND not just the ability to mix elements, but also which kekkei genkai element. Making something like Mokuton run through a family and something like Ice release through another one.

What I am trying to say is, lets say its point 1-above and a Senju is born with Water and Wind release. Would he gain Ice release? The answer is probably that a Senju wont be born with Water and Wind release and would have a to difficult time learning it, if only having a water affinity. But I am putting it out there. Interested in what you have to say about it.

I have a few more questions.

The Mizukage Terumi Mei, has 2 Kekkei Genkai and she has the elements water, fire and earth.
She can use lava release and boil release(This release goes by multiple names I noticed. I have seen steam and acid release being used as names as well). So she could Mokuton too, but it just would be really hard?

Do you believe Mokuton has nothing to do with the Juubi?
Because Neji was killed by Mokuton looking spikes. The Juubi and bijou are being controlled by Mokuton and Sharingan(and Rinnegan).

We have seen how Obito can mix 4 or more elements(since he became the Juubi jinchuriki), if we believe what Hiruzen analyzed.
Meaning it is possible that the Juubi has a Kekkei genkai, Kekkei genkai tota and something unnamed for 4 or more elements.

I find it very plausible if we use Obito to understand that the Juubi can use Mokuton.
In addition, the Juubi looks like to be made of zetsu goo and clones itself in the same way (the small ones).
The Juubi was used to cultivate Hashirama's cells and create Zetsu.

It makes me think that everyone with a kekkei genkai and kekkei genkai tota is related to the senju ancestor, who was probably given the ability to mix elements and therefore they are related to the Juubi too.
What is your opinion about this?

 

[H a n]

I would like to know who his mother was.

 

[thegame]

It's kinda obvious, what you are saying in this thread, but I think there is more to it than just being born "lucky". Hashiramas way of combining sage mode with mokuton is quite unique. It's as if he brings life into creatures created by wood. It seems clear to me, that he is controlling these creatures himself, and he has created them beforehand, so they can easily be summoned.

This very unique relationship makes me believe, that there is a connection between obtaining this sage mode and becoming able to use mokuton. Do not forget, that Yamato is also just a kind of "clone" of Hashirama. He has Hashiramas DNA, from when he died as well.

None other than Hashirama, or people carrying his DNA has been seen or heard of as being able to use mokuton. I know it's a blood-line limit, however, the potential to awaken a blood line limit can be different. I mean the mangekyo sharingan also gives several different KKGs, but they are only awoken in a certain way. This could be the case for mokuton as well.
I am just saying this to keep more options open, as there is far too little evidence in this field to make conclusions. After all, the Senju clan is not just "any" clan.

 

[Draxus]

It's kinda obvious, what you are saying in this thread, but I think there is more to it than just being born "lucky". Hashiramas way of combining sage mode with mokuton is quite unique. It's as if he brings life into creatures created by wood. It seems clear to me, that he is controlling these creatures himself, and he has created them beforehand, so they can easily be summoned.

This very unique relationship makes me believe, that there is a connection between obtaining this sage mode and becoming able to use mokuton. Do not forget, that Yamato is also just a kind of "clone" of Hashirama. He has Hashiramas DNA, from when he died as well.

None other than Hashirama, or people carrying his DNA has been seen or heard of as being able to use mokuton. I know it's a blood-line limit, however, the potential to awaken a blood line limit can be different. I mean the mangekyo sharingan also gives several different KKGs, but they are only awoken in a certain way. This could be the case for mokuton as well.
I am just saying this to keep more options open, as there is far too little evidence in this field to make conclusions. After all, the Senju clan is not just "any" clan.

I also think Hashirama's learned Mukoton in the Humid Bone Forest. That's why he's the only one that has it and why it has such special properties.

 

[marijuanna]

Perfect man, I always thought that too, but you forgot to say that earth and water might be a little more dificult to combine than other KKG, so even if tobirama has earth style he might find hard to combine because it's not one of his natural affinities, and yamato probably had both elements, thats why when orochi gave him dna and broke the bloodline barrier he was able to use it