[FEAR] Truth Behind Mokuton and KKG's

[FearxDeath]

Perfect man, I always thought that too, but you forgot to say that earth and water might be a little more dificult to combine than other KKG, so even if tobirama has earth style he might find hard to combine because it's not one of his natural affinities, and yamato probably had both elements, thats why when orochi gave him dna and broke the bloodline barrier he was able to use it

Lol, I agree with the part about Tobirama having trouble combining them because its not his Natural Affinity, but I disagree with Mokuton KKG being harder than others, its just too speculative although it could be possible. BTW Yamato was not born with both KKG, or atleast I dont think so, its clear that Orochimaru experimented on hundreds of subjects trying to get them to fused with Hashirama's cells, Yamato was the only suvivable. Also when Danzo acquired Hashirama cells from Orochimaru he could then use Mokuton, but we know that he only has Wind Release.

It's kinda obvious, what you are saying in this thread, but I think there is more to it than just being born "lucky". Hashiramas way of combining sage mode with mokuton is quite unique. It's as if he brings life into creatures created by wood. It seems clear to me, that he is controlling these creatures himself, and he has created them beforehand, so they can easily be summoned.

This very unique relationship makes me believe, that there is a connection between obtaining this sage mode and becoming able to use mokuton. Do not forget, that Yamato is also just a kind of "clone" of Hashirama. He has Hashiramas DNA, from when he died as well.

None other than Hashirama, or people carrying his DNA has been seen or heard of as being able to use mokuton. I know it's a blood-line limit, however, the potential to awaken a blood line limit can be different. I mean the mangekyo sharingan also gives several different KKGs, but they are only awoken in a certain way. This could be the case for mokuton as well.
I am just saying this to keep more options open, as there is far too little evidence in this field to make conclusions. After all, the Senju clan is not just "any" clan.

1) Yah, we know the summons are merely Jutsu, much like how Sasuke could make a Fireball look like a dragon or Water users can use Dragon Water Bullet technique, adding lifelike forms to jutsu is a form of Chakra Control.

2) This is where you lose me, Hashirama has been shown to use Mokuton outside of Sage Mode? And the effects of Sage Mode have been shown to end when the Technique ends. I dont think there is a correlation here. But a good arguement could be made here since we do know very little about Hashirama's mysterious Sage Mode and why he is the only one who could use Mokuton.

3) Ehh, I feel like your grasping at straws here, The Sharingan doesnt give several different KKG's, the Sharingan itself is a KKG that gives multiple powers. KKG have been shown to require nothing but merely being born into a Clan, with Elemental KKG's requiring multiple Nature Affinities as well.

I dont know man, im just going where the Manga leads me.

Interesting post.
I agree with the most of it.

Just wanting to make sure of a few things.

So as I understand, someone is born with a kekkei genkai to mix elements to form the kekkei genkai release.
1-If you are born with this and with the water and earth elements, than you can use wood release.
2-If you are not born with those elements or with only one of them, than you need to learn the remaining element and the chances of learning wood release are made more difficult this way.

3-Or is it, you are born with a kekkei genkai to mix elements AND not just the ability to mix elements, but also which kekkei genkai element. Making something like Mokuton run through a family and something like Ice release through another one.

What I am trying to say is, lets say its point 1-above and a Senju is born with Water and Wind release. Would he gain Ice release? The answer is probably that a Senju wont be born with Water and Wind release and would have a to difficult time learning it, if only having a water affinity. But I am putting it out there. Interested in what you have to say about it.

I have a few more questions.

The Mizukage Terumi Mei, has 2 Kekkei Genkai and she has the elements water, fire and earth.
She can use lava release and boil release(This release goes by multiple names I noticed. I have seen steam and acid release being used as names as well). So she could Mokuton too, but it just would be really hard?

Do you believe Mokuton has nothing to do with the Juubi?
Because Neji was killed by Mokuton looking spikes. The Juubi and bijou are being controlled by Mokuton and Sharingan(and Rinnegan).

We have seen how Obito can mix 4 or more elements(since he became the Juubi jinchuriki), if we believe what Hiruzen analyzed.
Meaning it is possible that the Juubi has a Kekkei genkai, Kekkei genkai tota and something unnamed for 4 or more elements.

I find it very plausible if we use Obito to understand that the Juubi can use Mokuton.
In addition, the Juubi looks like to be made of zetsu goo and clones itself in the same way (the small ones).
The Juubi was used to cultivate Hashirama's cells and create Zetsu.

It makes me think that everyone with a kekkei genkai and kekkei genkai tota is related to the senju ancestor, who was probably given the ability to mix elements and therefore they are related to the Juubi too.
What is your opinion about this?

1) Your first point is correct, but with your second point be sure to include that you still need to be born into said clan.

2) KKG in general require only 1 thing, and that is that you be born into a certain clan. Sharingan is the Uchiha KKG, Juugo's clan has a KKG, etc...

3) KKG Elements require 2 things, you be born into a Clan and that you be able to use the 2 elements which would be mixed together to make said KKG element. But keep in mind that this KKG Element is the only one you can create, for instance just because Hashirama has the KKG doesnt mean that he can use Ice release, that is a different KKG that pertains only to Haku's clan.

4) Mei would not be able to use Mokuton as it is limited only to the Senju Family as it is their specific KKG.

5) I think the Mokuton of the Juubi and Hashirama's Mokuton is merely a coincedence. If you walk down the sidewalk and some drops of water hit your head would you then say that it is raining? or would you reserve judgement for when more similarities appear, like more rain, cloudy skies, etc.. Juubi being made of Mokuton and Hashirama using it is the only connection so far and even that is pretty non-conclusive.

6) The Rinnegan allows you to Manipulate all 5 Nature Types but we dont know if this also allows them to use Elemental Kekkie Genkia adn Tota. Seeing as to how we have only seen Obito has Mokuton, which he got from his Hashirama cells, it is sage to assume that he cannot use Elemental KKG and KKT.

7) So far we have never seen the Juubi use Mokuton, the only thing we see is that his body was made from it, which the Gedo too was made from wood. He shoots out and controls part of its body to give the illusion of usnig Mokuton but we havent actually ever seen it use it.

8) Good observation, ill have to give that some thought.

9) Bit of a stretch lol, but plausible, if you make a theory about this be sure to link me to it =D

 

[Crt]

FearxDeath, your theories on many aspects of the Naruto series have always been logical and can be taken into consideration. I don't know why they are always bashed and rated as one stars, etc. But keep up the good work.

That dunking example conveyed what KKG pretty much is. Good job. ^^

 

[valandil988]

1) In response to your first few parahraps I am a little uncertain of what you are talking about? Are you arguing against what Kakashi himself said "A special jutsu that only those born into the Blood Line with the Kekkie genkia can use?" Because in order to argue against that you would either need to prove him wrong or find a way to discredit him which you have not done, you pretty much just said "Aww I don't know about this, I believe something else without good reason..." Your first 4 Paragraphs seem like a waste as I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

2) Hashirama's Mokuton is just Earth and Water as Yamato got his Mokuton directly from Hashirama and he confirms this statement, Yamato DOES possess Hashirama's cells, which is why Kabuto was able to make White Zetsu, who also contains some of Hashirama's cells, stronger by mixing in Yamato's DNA.

3) I explain that the reason Hashirama Is a "freak" is because unlike the other members who may have had to learn a secondary Nature then learn Mokuton, Hashirama was born with 2 Nature making It easier for him to acquire Mokuton.

4) Unique ability? Did you just make this up? Your going to have to elaborate on this a bit for me to understand the point you are trying to make.

I appreciate your questions, although they could have been better x__x, if you have any others or if I didn't fully answer your current ones I would be more than willing to address them. Just keep in mind that this is again, Deductive Logic, I take a fact that is put out in the Manga and create a deduction that logically stems from that fact. Thus to challenge the deduction one must first challenge the fact. For instance.

1) All men are mortal [Fact]
2) Bob is a man [Fact]
3) Bob is mortal. [Deduction]

In order to challenge #3 you must first challenge #1 or #2, because if #1 or #2 are true then logically speaking #3 must also be true. For Bob to not be mortal either #1 must be false and thus all men are not mortal or #2 must be false and bob is not a man.



No I want you to prove this "Apparently of you're talented enough and have iffinites you don't have to be born with it". He was born with a Kekkia Tota, this allowed him to master Particle Release.

What I mean is that Hashirama was not born with Mokuton, he was born with Earth and Water release which made it easier for him to learn mokuton. Just like Oonoki was born with Fire, Earth and Wind release, which in turn made it easier for him to learn Dust Release.

Btw this statement is incredibly redundant "Onoki wasn't born with particle release he learn it from Muu."

Yeah I agree it was late and I was rambling a bit.

I was kinda trying to argue against this...

Your basically arguing for the idea that its mastering affinities that allow you to express a sub element not a "limitation" via Blood that physically allows both natures to be channeled at the same time. Regular shinobi cannot do this from what I have seen. Its similar to Naruto not being able to shape change the Rasenshuriken and add wind chakra to it at the same time, ergo he has to use clones. Your not stating that not everyone within the Senju clan has this ability to "dual channel" earth and water affinities if they managed to learn both. Your basically saying everyone of them is a potential Mokuton user. Usually its the presence of the KKG that gives rise to the affinities not the other way around. Affinities don't equal a KKG, if it were then most talented shinobi could learn a sub element eventually. For example Kakashi.

(Lol adds an interesting idea, could Naruto channel sub elements using his clones to get around the blood limitation aspect of sub elements, sounds super hard lol)

Also you are saying that there was nothing special about Hashirama apart from his two elemental affinities....Are you joking I mean really? O_O Alot more coincided within Hashirama than just two elemental affinities, the legacy of the younger son I would wager is more complicated than that. And as far as I can tell we've never seen another NATURAL Mokuton user...everyone seemed to want to copy Hashirama's DNA that's fact from the manga, so it does seem to be a unique ability of a unique shinobi. If any Senju has the "KKG" dual channeling part of Mokuton then Orochimaru could have copied any Senju, which likely would have been way easier for him without the added complication of all the other goodies Hashirama likely has in his DNA.

We've seen how the body of the Juubi seems to be made from Mokuton right, ergo it seems like Hashirama's cells are almost like a derivative of that.

 

[thegame]

1) Yah, we know the summons are merely Jutsu, much like how Sasuke could make a Fireball look like a dragon or Water users can use Dragon Water Bullet technique, adding lifelike forms to jutsu is a form of Chakra Control.

2) This is where you lose me, Hashirama has been shown to use Mokuton outside of Sage Mode? And the effects of Sage Mode have been shown to end when the Technique ends. I dont think there is a correlation here. But a good arguement could be made here since we do know very little about Hashirama's mysterious Sage Mode and why he is the only one who could use Mokuton.

Well it's "just" a KKG, but there could be some create similar to Fukasaku, who taught it to him. As you say, his sage mode is very mysterious. To me, the only difference from his sage mode to his normal self, was the scale of his jutsu. But sage mode usually give more than just a boost in chakra, although that boost itself, is quite a power up!
Of course, this would still require him to have the needed elements to combine, as you have said.
I am simply wondering how a person learns a KKG without having anybody to learn from =D I mean, for a lot of others, we know they were either part of a clan with a KKG, or they had a teacher to teach them. Not saying it's impossible Hashirama had someone teaching it to him, but it's weird he never mentioned him or thought of him in any flashbacks we saw. Most people look up to their sensei. So it could be, he simply hadn't learned it yet, and whoever taught him SM, taught him mokuton, which changed his DNA in some sense.

3) Ehh, I feel like your grasping at straws here, The Sharingan doesnt give several different KKG's, the Sharingan itself is a KKG that gives multiple powers. KKG have been shown to require nothing but merely being born into a Clan, with Elemental KKG's requiring multiple Nature Affinities as well.

I dont know man, im just going where the Manga leads me.

Yet he jutsus the sharingan gives are all labelled as a KKG. Susanoo, Kamui, Amaerasu, etc. I mean, if someone stole Sasuke's eyes, and he had no fire element for his nature, I don't think, he would be able to use Amaterasu. KKG, as you provided the scan in the OP, is just a blood line limit.
I mean, there can also be other possibilities, than what I stated above. It's just, that there may be a vast amount of possibilities. It may be as simple as you said, but it could also be, that a Senju needs some special ritual or whatever to obtain it, similar to how an Uchiha obain a more unique KKG than an ordinary sharingan. Just keeping options open, lol

 

[FearxDeath]

Yeah I agree it was late and I was rambling a bit.

I was kinda trying to argue against this...

Your basically arguing for the idea that its mastering affinities that allow you to express a sub element not a "limitation" via Blood that physically allows both natures to be channeled at the same time. Regular shinobi cannot do this from what I have seen. Its similar to Naruto not being able to shape change the Rasenshuriken and add wind chakra to it at the same time, ergo he has to use clones. Your not stating that not everyone within the Senju clan has this ability to "dual channel" earth and water affinities if they managed to learn both. Your basically saying everyone of them is a potential Mokuton user. Usually its the presence of the KKG that gives rise to the affinities not the other way around. Affinities don't equal a KKG, if it were then most talented shinobi could learn a sub element eventually. For example Kakashi.

(Lol adds an interesting idea, could Naruto channel sub elements using his clones to get around the blood limitation aspect of sub elements, sounds super hard lol)

Also you are saying that there was nothing special about Hashirama apart from his two elemental affinities....Are you joking I mean really? O_O Alot more coincided within Hashirama than just two elemental affinities, the legacy of the younger son I would wager is more complicated than that. And as far as I can tell we've never seen another NATURAL Mokuton user...everyone seemed to want to copy Hashirama's DNA that's fact from the manga, so it does seem to be a unique ability of a unique shinobi. If any Senju has the "KKG" dual channeling part of Mokuton then Orochimaru could have copied any Senju, which likely would have been way easier for him without the added complication of all the other goodies Hashirama likely has in his DNA.

We've seen how the body of the Juubi seems to be made from Mokuton right, ergo it seems like Hashirama's cells are almost like a derivative of that.

1) I am not arguing this, what I am arguing is that a Blood Limitation is available to everyone within said clan as long as they have both natures. This is contrary to the original belief that Blood Limitations are available only to those who are both within said clan AND born with both natures. With this logic i explain that it is possible for any
senju to acquire Mokuton, it is just difficult.

2) What? That is what I am saying?

3) I am not saying affinities = KKG, I am saying that learned affinities + clan = KKG as oppose to born with affinities + clan = KKG. Didnt realize there was that much ambiguity in my thread x__x

4) Can you qoute where I said that?

5) We know they do because a KKG is a Bloodline trait, as in available to everyone within the clan. This was explained by the scan. So what is left is whether you need to be born with both affinities or whether you can be born with 1 and learn the other. I argue the latter.

6) There is a guy falling in the air, therefore he must be a skydiver. That is the logic you are using, and it makes sense, but you have to understand that it is NOT correct.

All in all I think you have missunderstood my argument

Well it's "just" a KKG, but there could be some create similar to Fukasaku, who taught it to him. As you say, his sage mode is very mysterious. To me, the only difference from his sage mode to his normal self, was the scale of his jutsu. But sage mode usually give more than just a boost in chakra, although that boost itself, is quite a power up!

Of course, this would still require him to have the needed elements to combine, as you have said.
I am simply wondering how a person learns a KKG without having anybody to learn from =D I mean, for a lot of others, we know they were either part of a clan with a KKG, or they had a teacher to teach them. Not saying it's impossible Hashirama had someone teaching it to him, but it's weird he never mentioned him or thought of him in any flashbacks we saw. Most people look up to their sensei. So it could be, he simply hadn't learned it yet, and whoever taught him SM, taught him mokuton, which changed his DNA in some sense.


Yet he jutsus the sharingan gives are all labelled as a KKG. Susanoo, Kamui, Amaerasu, etc. I mean, if someone stole Sasuke's eyes, and he had no fire element for his nature, I don't think, he would be able to use Amaterasu. KKG, as you provided the scan in the OP, is just a blood line limit.
I mean, there can also be other possibilities, than what I stated above. It's just, that there may be a vast amount of possibilities. It may be as simple as you said, but it could also be, that a Senju needs some special ritual or whatever to obtain it, similar to how an Uchiha obain a more unique KKG than an ordinary sharingan. Just keeping options open, lol

1) In all fairness we dont know if the scale of his jutsu is from Sage Mode or from him simply being one of the strongest ninja in the world. Dont get me wrong some of his powe does come from Sage Mode, but I doubt it all comes from it x__x.

2) This is actually a very good point, and could be the reason we havent seen Mokuton before Hashirama, he may have invented it. Maybe all senju had the ability but just never had the idea of trying it out.

3) Really like this idea, only way to find out is wait for kishi to tell use but it makes alot of sense, but keep in mind that everyone was absolutely sure Minato created Haraishin up until the point that Tobirama said that he invented it and Minato was copying him.

4) Not going to say it isnt possible, but I disagree. I think the Sharingan itself is the KKG, and the abilities are somewhat sub-KKG's usable only when you have the Sharingan. For instance, are each of the Path's of Pain KKG's? Or are they abilities gained from the Rinnegan KKG.

 

[valandil988]

1) I am not arguing this, what I am arguing is that a Blood Limitation is available to everyone within said clan as long as they have both natures. This is contrary to the original belief that Blood Limitations are available only to those who are both within said clan AND born with both natures. With this logic i explain that it is possible for any
senju to acquire Mokuton, it is just difficult.

2) What? That is what I am saying?

3) I am not saying affinities = KKG, I am saying that learned affinities + clan = KKG as oppose to born with affinities + clan = KKG. Didnt realize there was that much ambiguity in my thread x__x

4) Can you qoute where I said that?

5) We know they do because a KKG is a Bloodline trait, as in available to everyone within the clan. This was explained by the scan. So what is left is whether you need to be born with both affinities or whether you can be born with 1 and learn the other. I argue the latter.

6) There is a guy falling in the air, therefore he must be a skydiver. That is the logic you are using, and it makes sense, but you have to understand that it is NOT correct.

All in all I think you have missunderstood my argument

"We know they do because a KKG is a Bloodline trait, as in available to everyone within the clan." Then why is it that not all Uchiha awaken the Sharingan even if they fulfill the requirements? Having an elemental KKG active within a clansman's body gives rise to the required nature affinities. Much like the Rinnegan giving the user all five affinities a regular KKG does the same.

Whether or not the Rinnegan allows for multi channeling we simply don't know, it could be that the Rinnegan allows you to use any jutsu even elemental bloodlines. Perhaps it allows one to channel all five at once.

Being related to a clan is the first requirement to being able to use any said KKG. It is by no means that last. Mostly it seems to come down to chance in whether or not a child born has the required DNA to active the KKG. They can be born without it. If EVERYONE got an equal share in the clans KKG then the Senju would have had Hashirama's coming out of their ears, same with the Uchiha, a child can inherit different strengths in a particular KKG. Just as some Hyuuga eyes are better than others. It also means that a child can be born within said clan and not have ANY KKG at all.
Why do you think Obito was so afraid about his Sharingan never awakening or if he simply didn't have the potential. KKG are temperamental. Clans practice inbreeding to increase the probability of the children gaining the bloodline traits with more regularity. The Hyuuga for one seem a prime example for this practice.

"learned affinities + clan = KKG as oppose to born with affinities + clan = KKG"

I'm saying that if a person needs to "learn" the affinities as in they don't naturally have them then they don't have the clans KKG. KKG being available to a person within a clan does not mean they are 100% sure to be born with it, only the Hyuuga seem to be able to boast that kind of certainty. You seem to be just taking a general statement like what Kakashi says in the scan and just blindly running with it instead of actually thinking about it. Yes KKG are blood restricted, but even within that blood its not always likely.

It could be that the Senju didn't practice inbreeding like the Uchiha possibly did. It would make sense, the Elder son valued power hence his descendants would try to make their bloodline as strong as possible hence the inbreeding and hence the far higher probability of the Sharingan appearing. The Senju clan however seem to be much more diluted than the Uchiha, in line with the younger son they wouldn't be so obsessed with preserving their bloodline. They had the guts to make up for a loss in power like that lol. Hence why Mokuton is rare as hell.

Take the Kaguyas for example, their bone pulse was dying out....I'm sorry what was that I didn't hear you....Yes The Kaguya's bloodline was dying out, how? But wait a second I thought a bloodline was available to those with the blood of the clan? Yeah it obvious your reasoning is wrong. If KKG were present in EVERY clan member then it wouldn't be dying out. Why were the Kaguya's afraid of Kimimaro? Because he manifested the clans bloodline. End of story. KKG are temperamental they don't pass to every clan member. Hashirama is very similar to Kimimaro in this fashion.

 

[Meowazziel]

Spoiler

1) Your first point is correct, but with your second point be sure to include that you still need to be born into said clan.

2) KKG in general require only 1 thing, and that is that you be born into a certain clan. Sharingan is the Uchiha KKG, Juugo's clan has a KKG, etc...

3) KKG Elements require 2 things, you be born into a Clan and that you be able to use the 2 elements which would be mixed together to make said KKG element. But keep in mind that this KKG Element is the only one you can create, for instance just because Hashirama has the KKG doesnt mean that he can use Ice release, that is a different KKG that pertains only to Haku's clan.

4) Mei would not be able to use Mokuton as it is limited only to the Senju Family as it is their specific KKG.

5) I think the Mokuton of the Juubi and Hashirama's Mokuton is merely a coincedence. If you walk down the sidewalk and some drops of water hit your head would you then say that it is raining? or would you reserve judgement for when more similarities appear, like more rain, cloudy skies, etc.. Juubi being made of Mokuton and Hashirama using it is the only connection so far and even that is pretty non-conclusive.

6) The Rinnegan allows you to Manipulate all 5 Nature Types but we dont know if this also allows them to use Elemental Kekkie Genkia adn Tota. Seeing as to how we have only seen Obito has Mokuton, which he got from his Hashirama cells, it is sage to assume that he cannot use Elemental KKG and KKT.

7) So far we have never seen the Juubi use Mokuton, the only thing we see is that his body was made from it, which the Gedo too was made from wood. He shoots out and controls part of its body to give the illusion of usnig Mokuton but we havent actually ever seen it use it.

8) Good observation, ill have to give that some thought.

9) Bit of a stretch lol, but plausible, if you make a theory about this be sure to link me to it =D

I just need to ask a few more things =D.

Points 1 2 and 3.
In addition to needing the elemental kekkei genkai ability to mix 2 elements into a new release (like for example Wood release), it is also determined which release you can learn. Someone related to the Senju family/clan (who has an elemental kekkei genkai ability) wont learn Ice release without the blood from the Yuki clan. Even if that Senju has water and wind. This is what you say right?

Point 4.
Unless Mei has some Senju blood, without carrying the name, she cant learn Wood release.
Right?

Mei is an interesting character due to having 2 kekkei genkai.
I wonder if all the Lava release users are somewhere related, even though they are from different villages.
What do you think about this?

Skipping point 5 for a moment (will come back at this later).

Point 6.
I think you misunderstood me on this one. I think becomming the Juubi jinchuriki, allows the use of Elemental kekkei genkai, tota and higher. That is, if you believe Hiruzen his analyzation of Obito his black jutsu stuff. He didnt use it before he became the Juubi jinc. Unless those black poles count (maybe a weaker version of the ability if you only have Rinnegan and are not a Juubi jinc). Anyway, multiple theories have a chance in this subject I guess.

Point 7.
He indeed hasnt said ''Mokuton: *insert jutsu name*'' but he doesnt speak so far =D.
Dont you find it likely if Mokuton is used to control bijou and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) that Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?
That is why I think it is not a coincidence that Juubi and Hashirama have Mokuton (which makes me get back to point 5 ). Because the Senju are descendants of the Younger son. Than there is the whole zetsu clone cultivation with the gedo mazo, the wood type of look of the statue, the Juubi cloning itself in a zetsu like way (the Mini and big Mini ones) and more stuff like this, which makes me consider it possible.

Point 8.
Thanks.

Point 9.
Ill let you know .

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

"We know they do because a KKG is a Bloodline trait, as in available to everyone within the clan." Then why is it that not all Uchiha awaken the Sharingan even if they fulfill the requirements? Having an elemental KKG active within a clansman's body gives rise to the required nature affinities. Much like the Rinnegan giving the user all five affinities a regular KKG does the same.

Whether or not the Rinnegan allows for multi channeling we simply don't know, it could be that the Rinnegan allows you to use any jutsu even elemental bloodlines. Perhaps it allows one to channel all five at once.

Being related to a clan is the first requirement to being able to use any said KKG. It is by no means that last. Mostly it seems to come down to chance in whether or not a child born has the required DNA to active the KKG. They can be born without it. If EVERYONE got an equal share in the clans KKG then the Senju would have had Hashirama's coming out of their ears, same with the Uchiha, a child can inherit different strengths in a particular KKG. Just as some Hyuuga eyes are better than others. It also means that a child can be born within said clan and not have ANY KKG at all.
Why do you think Obito was so afraid about his Sharingan never awakening or if he simply didn't have the potential. KKG are temperamental. Clans practice inbreeding to increase the probability of the children gaining the bloodline traits with more regularity. The Hyuuga for one seem a prime example for this practice.

"learned affinities + clan = KKG as oppose to born with affinities + clan = KKG"

I'm saying that if a person needs to "learn" the affinities as in they don't naturally have them then they don't have the clans KKG. KKG being available to a person within a clan does not mean they are 100% sure to be born with it, only the Hyuuga seem to be able to boast that kind of certainty. You seem to be just taking a general statement like what Kakashi says in the scan and just blindly running with it instead of actually thinking about it. Yes KKG are blood restricted, but even within that blood its not always likely.

It could be that the Senju didn't practice inbreeding like the Uchiha possibly did. It would make sense, the Elder son valued power hence his descendants would try to make their bloodline as strong as possible hence the inbreeding and hence the far higher probability of the Sharingan appearing. The Senju clan however seem to be much more diluted than the Uchiha, in line with the younger son they wouldn't be so obsessed with preserving their bloodline. They had the guts to make up for a loss in power like that lol. Hence why Mokuton is rare as hell.

Take the Kaguyas for example, their bone pulse was dying out....I'm sorry what was that I didn't hear you....Yes The Kaguya's bloodline was dying out, how? But wait a second I thought a bloodline was available to those with the blood of the clan? Yeah it obvious your reasoning is wrong. If KKG were present in EVERY clan member then it wouldn't be dying out. Why were the Kaguya's afraid of Kimimaro? Because he manifested the clans bloodline. End of story. KKG are temperamental they don't pass to every clan member. Hashirama is very similar to Kimimaro in this fashion.

1) If you show me prove of an Uchiha not awakening the Sharingan even after fulfilling the requirements

2) Nagato, Obito and Madara all have the Rinnegan, yet not once have they done this. If you are right then answer as to why they have never used any KKG's or KKT?

3) In my thread I explain why not all senju can use Mokuton

4) Because awakening the Sharingan is not as easy as cooking an omelette, it requires one to feel true despair, which is no an easy thing to manipulate.

5) Explain what I didnt think about? Everything in my thread was taken from a scan, from that scan I made a conclusion. Please explain the problems with this in an organized form as its difficult to find someones point in a wall of text x__x

6) All Clans do that, Hyuga, etc... Inbreeding was an extremely common thing during that era of Japan, but on top of that diluting a bloodline by outbreeding would remove KKG's.

7) This is why the Kaguya's died out [

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] But most importantly look at this scan and keep in mind Orochimaru's use of the word "They" as in more than one, plural. [

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]

Organize your response and leave out parts that arent crucial if possible.

Spoiler

I just need to ask a few more things =D.

Points 1 2 and 3.
In addition to needing the elemental kekkei genkai ability to mix 2 elements into a new release (like for example Wood release), it is also determined which release you can learn. Someone related to the Senju family/clan (who has an elemental kekkei genkai ability) wont learn Ice release without the blood from the Yuki clan. Even if that Senju has water and wind. This is what you say right?

Point 4.
Unless Mei has some Senju blood, without carrying the name, she cant learn Wood release.
Right?

Mei is an interesting character due to having 2 kekkei genkai.
I wonder if all the Lava release users are somewhere related, even though they are from different villages.
What do you think about this?

Skipping point 5 for a moment (will come back at this later).

Point 6.
I think you misunderstood me on this one. I think becomming the Juubi jinchuriki, allows the use of Elemental kekkei genkai, tota and higher. That is, if you believe Hiruzen his analyzation of Obito his black jutsu stuff. He didnt use it before he became the Juubi jinc. Unless those black poles count (maybe a weaker version of the ability if you only have Rinnegan and are not a Juubi jinc). Anyway, multiple theories have a chance in this subject I guess.

Point 7.
He indeed hasnt said ''Mokuton: *insert jutsu name*'' but he doesnt speak so far =D.
Dont you find it likely if Mokuton is used to control bijou and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) that Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?
That is why I think it is not a coincidence that Juubi and Hashirama have Mokuton (which makes me get back to point 5 ). Because the Senju are descendants of the Younger son. Than there is the whole zetsu clone cultivation with the gedo mazo, the wood type of look of the statue, the Juubi cloning itself in a zetsu like way (the Mini and big Mini ones) and more stuff like this, which makes me consider it possible.

Point 8.
Thanks.

Point 9.
Ill let you know .

1) Yes, you need to be born into the Yuki clan to use Ice Release, Water and WInd Affinities are merely a secondary requirment.

2) Yes, Only Senju can use Mokuton and there is definitaly something going on their, it is also possible that more than one clan possesses the Lave Style KKG.

3) Well we know 2 things about Hiruzens analysis. 1 It is based solely on the fact that both Juubito's and Oonoki's techinques dematerializes matter, and thus he figured that it too must be a KKG. Lastly based on its fliud nature he figured it must be Oonoki's release with water mixed with it, thus "atleast 4 natures", I dont fault his analysis but this is all based on the coincedence that both techniques dematerialize matter. Now if Amaterasu burns things and fire style burns things do I assume that Amaterasu is some kind of KKG? Also he says "probably" which itself shows that he isnt sure.

4) Mokuton isnt used to control the Bijuu, Wood absorbs Chakra, this is the same reason why when Naruto walks past tree's or interacts with wood, they grow and sprout, he has an abundance of Yang Chakra which the wood feeds off of. The reason Mokuton works well against Bijuu and anyone in general is because it can be used to suck chakra out of people thus making them weaker. Now if you rephrase the question from "Dont you find it likely if Mokuton is used to control bijou and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) that Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?" to "Dont you find it likely if Mokuton absorbs chakra and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) than Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?" the statement makes less sense. But its a good point nonetheless.

 

[Meowazziel]

Spoiler

1) Yes, you need to be born into the Yuki clan to use Ice Release, Water and WInd Affinities are merely a secondary requirment.

2) Yes, Only Senju can use Mokuton and there is definitaly something going on their, it is also possible that more than one clan possesses the Lave Style KKG.

3) Well we know 2 things about Hiruzens analysis. 1 It is based solely on the fact that both Juubito's and Oonoki's techinques dematerializes matter, and thus he figured that it too must be a KKG. Lastly based on its fliud nature he figured it must be Oonoki's release with water mixed with it, thus "atleast 4 natures", I dont fault his analysis but this is all based on the coincedence that both techniques dematerialize matter. Now if Amaterasu burns things and fire style burns things do I assume that Amaterasu is some kind of KKG? Also he says "probably" which itself shows that he isnt sure.

4) Mokuton isnt used to control the Bijuu, Wood absorbs Chakra, this is the same reason why when Naruto walks past tree's or interacts with wood, they grow and sprout, he has an abundance of Yang Chakra which the wood feeds off of. The reason Mokuton works well against Bijuu and anyone in general is because it can be used to suck chakra out of people thus making them weaker. Now if you rephrase the question from "Dont you find it likely if Mokuton is used to control bijou and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) that Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?" to "Dont you find it likely if Mokuton absorbs chakra and sharingan is used to control bijou (Rinnegan too right?) than Mokuton has to do with the Juubi, because it seems to have these powers?" the statement makes less sense. But its a good point nonetheless.

In the last line you mean ''more sense'' and not ''less sense right''?
As last, I want to discuss the Mokuton control part.

Madara and Obito have these Mokuton tubes attached to Juubi.
Yamato (and Hashirama) have Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands.
Wood dragon absorbs chakra, supresses the bijou and wraps itself around the bijou to catch it so to speak.

Even if I would phrase differently and say Mokuton supresses and/or absorbs chakra to weaken the bijou, in the end that supressing and absorbing of chakra, is done to gain control of the bijou. Isnt it?
Also this scan uses the word control

Spoiler

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Anyway, I get what you mean though. Sharingan and Mokuton work differently. Mokuton gains control (I would like to stick to the word control still) through supressing and absorption(resulting in control), while sharingan does control in a different way, through dojutsu.

Thanks for the read.

 

[Nous]

Interesting. Well done as always and is quite plausible..

 

[altaire uchiha]

youre premises werent in any way facts, they were theories that dont have evidence. So you cant make conclusions that mean anything.

 

[FearxDeath]

youre premises werent in any way facts, they were theories that dont have evidence. So you cant make conclusions that mean anything.

I find it strange that people who disagree with me are often vague and ambiguous, could you perhaps elaborate on what premises of mine werent facts and why they are not?

In the last line you mean ''more sense'' and not ''less sense right''?
As last, I want to discuss the Mokuton control part.

Madara and Obito have these Mokuton tubes attached to Juubi.
Yamato (and Hashirama) have Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands.
Wood dragon absorbs chakra, supresses the bijou and wraps itself around the bijou to catch it so to speak.

Even if I would phrase differently and say Mokuton supresses and/or absorbs chakra to weaken the bijou, in the end that supressing and absorbing of chakra, is done to gain control of the bijou. Isnt it?
Also this scan uses the word control

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Anyway, I get what you mean though. Sharingan and Mokuton work differently. Mokuton gains control (I would like to stick to the word control still) through supressing and absorption(resulting in control), while sharingan does control in a different way, through dojutsu.

Thanks for the read.

1) Ya I meant more sense lol x__x

2) One can control a Bijuu by using some divine power gifted to you by the Juubi and one can control a bijuu by simply overpowering it. If the Raikage had beaten the Hachabi then he would have made that list as well. But I get what you mean, I still dont think Hashirahama;s mokuton is linked to the Juubi though. I could be wrong but I want to resist that mainstream idea x__x

Glad you liked the thread

 

[altaire uchiha]

I find it strange that people who disagree with me are often vague and ambiguous, could you perhaps elaborate on what premises of mine werent facts and why they are not?

Dont really care to, whenever you tell anybody theyre wrong about anything on an internet forum no matter how logical and factual what youre saying is theyll just deny its wrong because if they could grasp why it was wrong they wouldve never thought what they were saying up in the first place to say it, and you just waste time typing. So no.

 

[Mr Hiru]

This thread has been completely re-written and remodeled as of 8/2/2013

I recommend you walk into this thread with a very open mind ... Hashirama fan boys are gonna hate me for this one.

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There seems to be this misconception amoung the members of NB about how KKG's work in general. In this thread I further break down this concept, this may be a little obvious at times but I think it should be said.

How I work​

Spoiler

I am going to start putting this at the start of all my threads so people understand how I come to the conclusions I come to.

It is something called deductive reasoning which is pretty simple, I take a fact, then based on that fact I form a deduction. For Example:

1) All men are mortal [Fact]
2) Bob is a man [Fact]
3) Bob is mortal [Deduction]

As you can see the statement "Bob is mortal" is on its own non-conclusive, but when paired with the Facts that proceed it the statement also becomes a Fact. For someone to say that "Bob is not Mortal" they must first prove that "All men are not mortal" or that "Bob is not a man."

My threads are the same way, I take a scan maybe 2 or 3. These scans state certain Manga Facts or from said scans a Manga Fact can be implied, then from these Facts I form a Deduction. Simple as that.

What is a KKG?​

Spoiler

In the following scans Yamato and Kakashi break down exactly what a KKG is and how Elemental KKG's like Wood Release and Ice Release are attained and used.

Spoiler

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Now here we see that Mokuton itself is not an Element that is passed down but rather it is the mixture of 2 Different Elements. Now the Ability for a Clan to use 2 Elements at once is known as a KKG.

KKG's Work in Mysterious ways?​

Spoiler

So here is what we know so far about KKG's in general.

1) They are a bloodline trait, which means anyone in the Family can access them.
2) In order to access them you must have 2 or even 3 of the required Nature Types.

So then the question becomes why haven't their been any other Senju with Mokuton. It seems simple enough? Any Senju can access it as long as they have Mastered both Water and Earth style, Kakashi himself already said that most Jounin level ninja have mastered 2 different Nature types. It stands to reason that their would have been a Senju with both Water and Earth Styles at some point in time prior to Hashirama.

One can even further infer that the Senju's Base Nature type may very well be Water Type. Kakashi did say that the Uchiha's Base Style was Fire [

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], and with the Senju being their counterpart it stands to reason that their Nature Style would also counter the Uchiha's, so with that in mind, theoretically it would only take 1 Senju member with an additional Nature Type of Earth to unlock Wood Release.

No Other Mokuton User's?​

Spoiler

I believe Hashirama was the only one to attain Mokuton because he was the only one to be born with both Water and Earth Style Releases, as oppose to being born with one and learning the other.

It seems to be a lot easier for someone born with a Nature Release to master it [

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], then again that goes without saying. But from the scan with Yamato he says that even someone born with both styles it can still be difficult to master. Consider that in Hiruzens old age and with his expertise in master jutsu even he was only able to master 2 Nature Types, or so we have seen.

Think of it like Dunking. A person who is 6'5ft tall with hard work and training can dunk fairly easily, while a person that is 5'8 may also be able to dunk, but the chances are fairly slim and the amount of work that would have to be put behind doing so is absurd. As a matter of fact the shortest known dunker in the NBA to date is Nate Robinson and he is 5'9.

It is my idea that using KKG is a lot like dunking in that people who are born with both Nature Types are effectively "Taller" than those who are born without it who would be "Shorter". Now both can still Dunk, but it is a lot easier for the Taller person to do so, and even with that he would have to work hard to as not all 6'5 Players can dunk.

Conclusion​

Spoiler

The reason we haven't seen more Senju using Mokuton isn't because they cannot, but infact is because... well they simply cannot.

You get to the same conclusion with or without my thread, mine simply shine a light on the situation. And with that it is my belief that all Senju have the potential to be able to use Mokuton.


Note that their is a scan where Tsunade is ridiculed for not being able to use Mokuton although she is a Senju, this leads me to believe that she would have been expected to be able to. Which itself contradicts the idea that Mokuton is rare amoung the Senju. This is something I have been thinking about for some while, person Hashirama isn't the first Mokuton user, but was simply the strongest. Much like Madara wasn't the first to unlock the EMS but he was the strongest Uchiha to use it so far.

*This leads me into the idea that Tobirama may be able to use Mokuton to a extremely far lesser extent than Hashirama.*

Enjoy the Read!​

Quite the thread my friend. I would like to add that Hiruzen created Mud in the fight against Orochimaru (Invasion of Konoha), this not being an element, but a combination of two separated elements. The special trait that made the Senju Clan able to create "life" from the combination of Water and Earth was his influence on the Yang part (since this clan is the legacy of the Younger Ancestor of the Sage of Six Path, which Physical Energy and Lifeforce was the greatest). KCM Naruto is another perfect example, he can create trees from Yamato's techniques since KCM Naruto has the Yang part of the Kyuubi.

 

[valandil988]

Soooo your saying that Hashirama's ability to suppress Biju chakra is what exactly? Chance? A unique ability of his that just so happens to parallel the Uchiha's ability to mentally bind people and Biju in genjutsu. Hashirama's ability to suppress Chakra I would wager is not limited to just the Biju, he can likely do this to any creature with chakra including humans much like the Sharingan can with Genjutsu on humans. However the fact that his unique chakra alongside Madara's is even capable of suppressing Biju chakra which is known to be far more dense and powerful than any regular human's can become stinks to me.

The fact that Hashirama and Madara can do this at all is fishy to me. Some of the most powerful creatures ever, which would be invincible if not for suspiciously convenient powers which both control them. Both powers of which are descendant to them from the younger and elder son respectively who in turn received them from the Sage who in turn likely gained his more esoteric powers from the Juubi.

Unique humans not included in the above paragraph like the third Raikage who fought the Hachibi to a stand still, he didn't suppress its Chakra effortlessly like Hashirama would have done he fought it to exhaustion. Just look at Hashirama vs Madara, he doesnt even spare the Kyuubi a second though, he lays hands on it LOL....that's all he had to do?? He didn't even need to use the specific technique he created.....Thats whats so fkd up about Mokuton and the Sharingan, and thats why they aren't simple KKG like Yoton or Hyoton. Simply by laying a Mokuton hand on the Kyuubi he instantly calmed its chakra and suppressed it....ermm does this sound like an normal KKG to you?

Juubi + banbutsu sozo = Nine tailed beasts

Sage > Juubi : Juubi + Sage = Elder son + Younger son = Sharingan + Mokuton > Tailed Beasts

Mokuton and the Sharingan are both manifestations of this legacy power do you agree?

Its the same parallel that Kishi keeps pushing. Sky vs earth, yin vs yang, Mokuton vs Sharingan etc. Both abilities do the same damn thing just in different ways. The Mokuton binds the physical while the Sharingan binds the mental. Tobi managed to bind the Kyuubi with only ONE year training within his Mangekyou genjutsu....A feat only Madara was capable of till that moment, but suddenly it seems any Uchiha can do it with a Mangekyou. Doesn't seem that special anymore does it?

It does not say to me, "OH TOBI your such a bad-ass as to be able to bind a Chakra monster of nigh on infinite power on your first try and use it to destroy your home town...." or that "Tobi you managed to make your chakra soooo potent as to be capable of suppressing the Kyuubi's mind" Yeah nope. If you turn around and say Kurama is weak willed I just have no words for you. No it says to me that the Mangekyou Sharingan and the lesser 3t Sharingan possess an innate quality that allows for this unique binding effect. The same could likely be said for the Mokuton.

Honestly I think there was absolutely NOTHING special about Hashirama's ability to suppress Biju the same with the Mangekyou's mental binding ability. Its almost like the Biju were created with the susceptibility of being dominated by either Mokuton or Sharingan, both of which are expressions of the Younger and Elder sons chakra legacy. Is it possible that the Sage intentionally made the susceptible to these techniques or is it simply because the nine biju are lesser beings in comparison to the Juubi? (Though mokuton seemed to work nicely on the Juubi in recent chapters)

One last thing, if you mention Yamato not being able to suppress Biju, that is only natural, while Orochimaru managed to insert the elemental KKG aspect of Mokuton he failed to insert the so called Chakra legacy of the younger son. Mokuton is an expression of this legacy not the totality of the legacy. As I have said before in Yamato's hands Mokuton is no better than Yoton or Hyoton against a Biju, or even people. If Yamato had the Chakra legacy of the Younger son as well as the KKG expression of it, he would possess the same innate ability as Hashirama, he would have been capable of suppressing the Kyuubi chakra easily. He was not able to do so he needed Hashirama's chakra present in the Chakra crystal.

If Mokuton was only about creating wood then yeah it would just mean combining two elemental affinities, but the true Mokuton is quite simply much more than that. Its creating life. The Senju clan have a life giving legacy, the stronger it comes through the more likely that person manifests Mokuton. Its that simple. Hashirama just drew a lucky break with genetics. The KKG just manifests as a secondary effect of the younger son's legacy being so strong.

That is how I choose to look at it. It not that any Senju clan member can learn Mokuton its that they can't because their legacy is too diluted. When said legacy becomes strong enough, they manifest Mokuton. Tsunade is an example of this, while her chakra is strong, it doesnt seem all that extraordinary for the Senju clan. He legacy is diluted much like the rest of the original clan. Hashirama was a fluke.

 

[FearxDeath]

Dont really care to, whenever you tell anybody theyre wrong about anything on an internet forum no matter how logical and factual what youre saying is theyll just deny its wrong because if they could grasp why it was wrong they wouldve never thought what they were saying up in the first place to say it, and you just waste time typing. So no.

I see, so then why did you bother typing in the first place. Thanks for wasting my time...

Quite the thread my friend. I would like to add that Hiruzen created Mud in the fight against Orochimaru (Invasion of Konoha), this not being an element, but a combination of two separated elements. The special trait that made the Senju Clan able to create "life" from the combination of Water and Earth was his influence on the Yang part (since this clan is the legacy of the Younger Ancestor of the Sage of Six Path, which Physical Energy and Lifeforce was the greatest). KCM Naruto is another perfect example, he can create trees from Yamato's techniques since KCM Naruto has the Yang part of the Kyuubi.

Actually Mud is an Earth Release Jutsu. Im not sure if I should keep reading as I have a feeling the rest of what you say is based on the idea that Mud isnt an Earth Release x__x

Soooo your saying that Hashirama's ability to suppress Biju chakra is what exactly? Chance? A unique ability of his that just so happens to parallel the Uchiha's ability to mentally bind people and Biju in genjutsu. Hashirama's ability to suppress Chakra I would wager is not limited to just the Biju, he can likely do this to any creature with chakra including humans much like the Sharingan can with Genjutsu on humans. However the fact that his unique chakra alongside Madara's is even capable of suppressing Biju chakra which is known to be far more dense and powerful than any regular human's can become stinks to me.

The fact that Hashirama and Madara can do this at all is fishy to me. Some of the most powerful creatures ever, which would be invincible if not for suspiciously convenient powers which both control them. Both powers of which are descendant to them from the younger and elder son respectively who in turn received them from the Sage who in turn likely gained his more esoteric powers from the Juubi.

Unique humans not included in the above paragraph like the third Raikage who fought the Hachibi to a stand still, he didn't suppress its Chakra effortlessly like Hashirama would have done he fought it to exhaustion. Just look at Hashirama vs Madara, he doesnt even spare the Kyuubi a second though, he lays hands on it LOL....that's all he had to do?? He didn't even need to use the specific technique he created.....Thats whats so fkd up about Mokuton and the Sharingan, and thats why they aren't simple KKG like Yoton or Hyoton. Simply by laying a Mokuton hand on the Kyuubi he instantly calmed its chakra and suppressed it....ermm does this sound like an normal KKG to you?

Juubi + banbutsu sozo = Nine tailed beasts

Sage > Juubi : Juubi + Sage = Elder son + Younger son = Sharingan + Mokuton > Tailed Beasts

Mokuton and the Sharingan are both manifestations of this legacy power do you agree?

Its the same parallel that Kishi keeps pushing. Sky vs earth, yin vs yang, Mokuton vs Sharingan etc. Both abilities do the same damn thing just in different ways. The Mokuton binds the physical while the Sharingan binds the mental. Tobi managed to bind the Kyuubi with only ONE year training within his Mangekyou genjutsu....A feat only Madara was capable of till that moment, but suddenly it seems any Uchiha can do it with a Mangekyou. Doesn't seem that special anymore does it?

It does not say to me, "OH TOBI your such a bad-ass as to be able to bind a Chakra monster of nigh on infinite power on your first try and use it to destroy your home town...." or that "Tobi you managed to make your chakra soooo potent as to be capable of suppressing the Kyuubi's mind" Yeah nope. If you turn around and say Kurama is weak willed I just have no words for you. No it says to me that the Mangekyou Sharingan and the lesser 3t Sharingan possess an innate quality that allows for this unique binding effect. The same could likely be said for the Mokuton.

Honestly I think there was absolutely NOTHING special about Hashirama's ability to suppress Biju the same with the Mangekyou's mental binding ability. Its almost like the Biju were created with the susceptibility of being dominated by either Mokuton or Sharingan, both of which are expressions of the Younger and Elder sons chakra legacy. Is it possible that the Sage intentionally made the susceptible to these techniques or is it simply because the nine biju are lesser beings in comparison to the Juubi? (Though mokuton seemed to work nicely on the Juubi in recent chapters)

One last thing, if you mention Yamato not being able to suppress Biju, that is only natural, while Orochimaru managed to insert the elemental KKG aspect of Mokuton he failed to insert the so called Chakra legacy of the younger son. Mokuton is an expression of this legacy not the totality of the legacy. As I have said before in Yamato's hands Mokuton is no better than Yoton or Hyoton against a Biju, or even people.

1) Its not Hashirama's ability, it is the ability that anyone who can use Mokuton can use. Even Yamato, Danzo and Zetsu. Wood absorbs Chakra, it is simple as that, Wood absorbs Chakra. Thus anyone who can use Mokuton, can surpress anything that needs chakra, which is everything...

Also, People with Sharingans can controll Tailed Beasts by placing them in a Genjutsu, the way Madara put it was "You are merely slaves to those with blessed eyes."

2) Tobi placed Kurama in a genjutsu, this is portrayed several times within the scans themselves where Kurama's eyes are that of a Sharingan. This is the exact same thing Madara did. This is not a binding effect, it is merely a genjutsu. [

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]

3) They werent created for that, you are associating 2 coincidences. Fire burns paper, paper was not created so that it could be burned by fire. Everyone has their own way of controlling Bijuu, whether it be placing them within a genjutsu, absorbing their chakra, becoming their friends, stripping them of chakra like Naruto did to Kurama, sealing them within a child like The 4th Kazekage or Minato did. etc..

4) Im not even going to respond to the last paragraph as I have no clue what you are talking about... BTW Yamato has been able to surpress the 9 Tails Chakra on several occasions, he just isnt strong enough to do it to Kurama in his fully released form, not because he isnt a Senju, but because he isnt that powerfull. If Guy #1 takes a sword and cuts through a tree and guy #2 takes the same sword and cant cut through the tree, what you can say is that Guy #1 is stronger than Guy #2, what you cannot logically say is that Guy #1 being part of some special family is why he can do what Guy #2 cannot.

 

[valandil988]

1. Yamato states that he was only able to suppress even Naruto 4 tailed state with the help of Hashirama's chakra present within the chakra crystal Naruto was wearing at the time. "Wood absorbs Chakra" but obviously this effect varies to a vast degree depending on the user. Yamato could be said to be useless compared to Hashirama's ability with it. I'm questioning if Mokuton is just a KKG and Yamato is basically a clone of Hashirama why is he so weak? You listed "Yamato, Danzo and Zetsu" all three of which are examples of copying Hashirama's ability.

Why should Yamato's "wood" be less effective than Hashirama's. Its WOOD lol Yes Hashirama' wood is stronger and tougher than Yamato's . Answer that if wood is what is supplying the suppressing properties of Mokuton then why is Yamato's wood weaker?

Sharingan, Yeah I know they can control them using Genjutsu, they bind the mind. Thats what Genjutsu is you bind the victims mind up in your own world. Every genjutsu tries to supplant the victims reality with another. Mokuton does the same thing instead of binding a person mentally it binds them physically. Again the yin vs yang theme. mental vs physical.

skip 2

3. Yes everyone has their own approach. But how is it that two clans that both have unique descendant abilities granted too them both affect Biju in the same way. They dominate them, both powers act like trump cards not like powers that are totally unrelated that just so happen to be capable of effecting the Biju in such a way. Mokuton binds physically, Sharingan binds mentally (You can't deny that the Biju are shackled within their minds under the influence of genjutsu, so they are bound). Both methods of control based on Yin or Yang....Odd much? Coincidence? You say so. Quite obviously isn't. Based on intuition, which is the best any one of us can present when arguing this subject. And there are no coincidences in writing, your applying what would naturally be sound logic to a manga where intuition serve someone better. Obito = Tobi I said nah because it made no logical sense (The hair tells it all apparently yes very logical)....lol that worked out well.

4. skip

 

[Mr Hiru]

Actually Mud is an Earth Release Jutsu. Im not sure if I should keep reading as I have a feeling the rest of what you say is based on the idea that Mud isnt an Earth Release x__x

I said that Mud is the result of two separated elements, but not a Kekkei Genkai, it's just only a mixture of two elements without any influence of external factors.

If I remember well, Hiruzen applied water technique and earth technique, but he said Doton and Suiton, not a Kekkei Genkai prefix as Mokuton. It's only natural to create mud from these two elements, without having any special knowledge, it's like creating steam step by step from water and then fire.

You could keep reading if you like, since as I said, my paragraph is not argumentative, is complementary to your thread.

 

[FearxDeath]

1. Yamato states that he was only able to suppress even Naruto 4 tailed state with the help of Hashirama's chakra present within the chakra crystal Naruto was wearing at the time. "Wood absorbs Chakra" but obviously this effect varies to a vast degree depending on the user. Yamato could be said to be useless compared to Hashirama's ability with it. I'm questioning if Mokuton is just a KKG and Yamato is basically a clone of Hashirama why is he so weak? You listed "Yamato, Danzo and Zetsu" all three of which are examples of copying Hashirama's ability.

Why should Yamato's "wood" be less effective than Hashirama's. Its WOOD lol Yes Hashirama' wood is stronger and tougher than Yamato's . Answer that if wood is what is supplying the suppressing properties of Mokuton then why is Yamato's wood weaker?

Sharingan, Yeah I know they can control them using Genjutsu, they bind the mind. Thats what Genjutsu is you bind the victims mind up in your own world. Every genjutsu tries to supplant the victims reality with another. Mokuton does the same thing instead of binding a person mentally it binds them physically. Again the yin vs yang theme. mental vs physical.

skip 2

3. Yes everyone has their own approach. But how is it that two clans that both have unique descendant abilities granted too them both affect Biju in the same way. They dominate them, both powers act like trump cards not like powers that are totally unrelated that just so happen to be capable of effecting the Biju in such a way. Mokuton binds physically, Sharingan binds mentally (You can't deny that the Biju are shackled within their minds under the influence of genjutsu, so they are bound). Both methods of control based on Yin or Yang....Odd much? Coincidence? You say so. Quite obviously isn't. Based on intuition, which is the best any one of us can present when arguing this subject. And there are no coincidences in writing, your applying what would naturally be sound logic to a manga where intuition serve someone better. Obito = Tobi I said nah because it made no logical sense (The hair tells it all apparently yes very logical)....lol that worked out well.

4. skip

This is pointless and I dont feel like arguing this point anymore. If you believe that Mokuton is some gift from the Juubi that only Hashirama out of all the Senju happened to get then believe that. I can only talk about conjecture so much before I lose interest.

I said that Mud is the result of two separated elements, but not a Kekkei Genkai, it's just only a mixture of two elements without any influence of external factors.

If I remember well, Hiruzen applied water technique and earth technique, but he said Doton and Suiton, not a Kekkei Genkai prefix as Mokuton. It's only natural to create mud from these two elements, without having any special knowledge, it's like creating steam step by step from water and then fire.

You could keep reading if you like, since as I said, my paragraph is not argumentative, is complementary to your thread.

1) Keep in mind that we are talking about Anime stuff here, non canon. [

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], Wiki was the best I can do short of linking you to the Episode.

2) Hiruzen does not know suiton, he only knows doton and katon. (Earth and Fire)

3) In regards to the rest of your original post, it all depends on whether or not Mud Style is considered to be Earth Style or if it really is Water and Earth mixed.

Sorry for always being argumentative x__x, its a bad habit of mine lol