Have the themes of hard work and determination been lost in Shippuden?

[Zetsueno]

Minato doesn't even know that Obito turned bad from witnessing Rin's death. Rin is just the most beneficial thing to him that comes from the eye of the moon plan. He still wants to erase the concept of trash and hatred.

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Either you didn't read this, or you don't know how to comprehend english.

 

[mikeeozua]

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Either you didn't read this, or you don't know how to comprehend english.

Sorry I only just saw that. But that's not to say he doesn't hate the ninja system. I found this explaination of Obito's motives from a user called Piratefish who summed it up pretty well:
@B00m

Yes, Obito was made into who he is now due, in a large part, to the people in the picture. But to him, that is no argumet FOR why the world should continue to exist.

The single largest event responsible for who Obito is today was Rin's death. Rin didn't die because of any mistake of her own, and even the Mist-ninja directly responsible for her death can't be said to be ultimately responsible.

Did they want Rin, specifically, to die? No, she was just the easiest route to achieving their goals.

Did they even desire the massive destruction caused by the Sanbi unleashed in the middle of Konoha, the multitudes of civilian and shinobi deaths caused by its rampage?

No, probably not.

They are people too. Most people do NOT want death and destruction for its own sake. The Mist Ninja did what they did to ensure a possibly MASSIVE military, economic and organizational advantage over the biggest and most powerful nation in the world. Is it really their FAULT that Rin died?

Obito doesn't think so. Obito blames the system, not the criminals. And in a world as ****ed up as the NV, he's not even WRONG.


The good guys agree with him! Those, like Jiraiya and Nagato, who have considered the state of the world deeply, think it NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. And Naruto agrees too! He also wants to "change the system"!

There is one, fundamental difference between Naruto and Obito, though. Naruto trusts people. Obito doesn't.

Naruto probably likes the person he has become, but even HE doesn't like the trials the world forced him to overcome. Loneliness, hatred and apathy in his younger years, Sasuke leaving even though he would have stayed if he could, Jiraiya dying by his own student's hand, both fighting for the same goal. It's messed up. It's downright shitty.

Obito probably hates the person he has become. But the sheer loathing he feels for the world that made him is what drives him. Much like Sasuke wanting Itachi's death for the obliteration of his clan, Obito wants the world, as it is, to be OVER.

And because he doesn't trust people, he hasn't tried the diplomatic route. Even the ENTIRE WORLD united to stop him hasn't given him pause. Obito thinks if people CAN do evil, they WILL.

So he's not going to give them the slightest chance. It's almost admirable, in a way.'

 

[GrayParadise]

Naruto's background image has always been a strong will.
Sasuke's was hate.
Kakashi's was teamwork.
Neil's used to be destiny. Now it's hard work.
And Lee's was hard work. But stronger and more emphasized than Neji's. And he's not as major as he used to be, so you know.

However, determination has always been a characteristic of the entire series. So kind of yes, and kind of no.

 

[Zetsueno]

Sorry I only just saw that. But that's not to say he doesn't hate the ninja system. I found this explaination of Obito's motives from a user called Piratefish who summed it up pretty well:
@B00m

Yes, Obito was made into who he is now due, in a large part, to the people in the picture. But to him, that is no argumet FOR why the world should continue to exist.

The single largest event responsible for who Obito is today was Rin's death. Rin didn't die because of any mistake of her own, and even the Mist-ninja directly responsible for her death can't be said to be ultimately responsible.

Did they want Rin, specifically, to die? No, she was just the easiest route to achieving their goals.

Did they even desire the massive destruction caused by the Sanbi unleashed in the middle of Konoha, the multitudes of civilian and shinobi deaths caused by its rampage?

No, probably not.

They are people too. Most people do NOT want death and destruction for its own sake. The Mist Ninja did what they did to ensure a possibly MASSIVE military, economic and organizational advantage over the biggest and most powerful nation in the world. Is it really their FAULT that Rin died?

Obito doesn't think so. Obito blames the system, not the criminals. And in a world as ****ed up as the NV, he's not even WRONG.


The good guys agree with him! Those, like Jiraiya and Nagato, who have considered the state of the world deeply, think it NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. And Naruto agrees too! He also wants to "change the system"!

There is one, fundamental difference between Naruto and Obito, though. Naruto trusts people. Obito doesn't.

Naruto probably likes the person he has become, but even HE doesn't like the trials the world forced him to overcome. Loneliness, hatred and apathy in his younger years, Sasuke leaving even though he would have stayed if he could, Jiraiya dying by his own student's hand, both fighting for the same goal. It's messed up. It's downright shitty.

Obito probably hates the person he has become. But the sheer loathing he feels for the world that made him is what drives him. Much like Sasuke wanting Itachi's death for the obliteration of his clan, Obito wants the world, as it is, to be OVER.

And because he doesn't trust people, he hasn't tried the diplomatic route. Even the ENTIRE WORLD united to stop him hasn't given him pause. Obito thinks if people CAN do evil, they WILL.

So he's not going to give them the slightest chance. It's almost admirable, in a way.'

While this is very insightful, that still doesn't change the fact that his hatred stems from Rin's death. Furthermore, despite all this profound reasoning, one thing that doesn't change is that the way Kishi portrayed before, and how quickly he changed boats doesn't match.

 

[mikeeozua]

While this is very insightful, that still doesn't change the fact that his hatred stems from Rin's death. Furthermore, despite all this profound reasoning, one thing that doesn't change is that the way Kishi portrayed before, and how quickly he changed boats doesn't match.

Once again true that it did stem from Rin's death, but didn't Nagato's stem from Yahiko's? Or Madara's from Izuna's?

 

[cptenn94]

First, Naruto was destined to be the child of a great shinobi(the 4th) because a hokage isnt going to seal a rampageing fox into just any new born baby.....he would only do this into his own son.

So from the very begining i knew naruto would have a "heritage".

But you can look at it this way. Nothing changed from part 1 to part 2. Naruto is still the same. EVERY single one of his powerups, he has had to work for.

Kage Bushin. He had to train for a day or so to be able to use it. He did not master it till after training with jman and kakashi.

Sage Mode. He had to train absorb nature energy, and was beat up until he got it right.(to knock excess nature energy out)

Summoning Jutsu. Tried and tried and tried again to summon. Was only able to summon small tadpoles, but slowly he summoned bigger and bigger ones. He needed nine tails chakra at first to be able to summon large frogs, but now through chakra training, he can summon normally.

Rasengan. He trained and trained and never gave up. He worked so hard his hands couldnt even hold chopsticks for a while.

Rasenshuriken. He spent tons of time training to use it, and even though it was a incredibly difficult task, he still never gave up, and wound up makeing his own jutsu.

Senpou rasenshuriken. Even though he was told to never use rasenshuriken again, naruto still never gave up on a way to be able to use it. Thus when he was doing sage mode training, he came up with the idea to throw it, and becan doing tons of late night training, IN ADDITION to his already difficult sage mode training.

kcm. Had to get strong enough to even be able to fight the nine tails first, then he had to be able to let go of more than 10 YEARS, of people directing hatred to him. Even then he had second doubts. Once he met his mom his heart was healed some, and he was finnally able to conquer the pain inside of him, to gain kcm.

BM. The only reason naruto got bm, is because of all his years of hard work and perservering, and his personality. Naruto decided and attempted to go and save all the bijuus. After nearly 10 years or so naruto finally was able to get through to kurama, and earn his trust.


Now anyways, let me say the main thing.

Hard work and determination never were themes lost in Shippuden. They were simply not the focus as they were in part 1. In part 2, the focus is hatred and how to deal with it, and the search for true peace. That is the whole reason that Naruto was divided into 2 parts.

So have the themes of hard work and determination been lost in shippuden? I would say no. They just were no longer the main themes.

 

[Zetsueno]

First, Naruto was destined to be the child of a great shinobi(the 4th) because a hokage isnt going to seal a rampageing fox into just any new born baby.....he would only do this into his own son.

So from the very begining i knew naruto would have a "heritage".

But you can look at it this way. Nothing changed from part 1 to part 2. Naruto is still the same. EVERY single one of his powerups, he has had to work for.

Kage Bushin. He had to train for a day or so to be able to use it. He did not master it till after training with jman and kakashi.

Sage Mode. He had to train absorb nature energy, and was beat up until he got it right.(to knock excess nature energy out)

Summoning Jutsu. Tried and tried and tried again to summon. Was only able to summon small tadpoles, but slowly he summoned bigger and bigger ones. He needed nine tails chakra at first to be able to summon large frogs, but now through chakra training, he can summon normally.

Rasengan. He trained and trained and never gave up. He worked so hard his hands couldnt even hold chopsticks for a while.

Rasenshuriken. He spent tons of time training to use it, and even though it was a incredibly difficult task, he still never gave up, and wound up makeing his own jutsu.

Senpou rasenshuriken. Even though he was told to never use rasenshuriken again, naruto still never gave up on a way to be able to use it. Thus when he was doing sage mode training, he came up with the idea to throw it, and becan doing tons of late night training, IN ADDITION to his already difficult sage mode training.

kcm. Had to get strong enough to even be able to fight the nine tails first, then he had to be able to let go of more than 10 YEARS, of people directing hatred to him. Even then he had second doubts. Once he met his mom his heart was healed some, and he was finnally able to conquer the pain inside of him, to gain kcm.

BM. The only reason naruto got bm, is because of all his years of hard work and perservering, and his personality. Naruto decided and attempted to go and save all the bijuus. After nearly 10 years or so naruto finally was able to get through to kurama, and earn his trust.


Now anyways, let me say the main thing.

Hard work and determination never were themes lost in Shippuden. They were simply not the focus as they were in part 1. In part 2, the focus is hatred and how to deal with it, and the search for true peace. That is the whole reason that Naruto was divided into 2 parts.

So have the themes of hard work and determination been lost in shippuden? I would say no. They just were no longer the main themes.

Well, you've managed to partially change my min. But, Naruto was still 'given' powerups than achieving them. He mastered Kage Bunshin in a little bit of time. An hour or two maybe, but surely not a day, if my memory serves me correctly. His Kage bunshin's usage was refined during his period with Jiraiya and Kakashi pointed out a use of Kage Bunshin that despite using it for so long Naruto couldn't get understand. His ise of Kage Bunshin itself stems from his massive chakra due to the uzumaki lineage and Kyuubi. So, there's no hard-work involved there.

He may have worked hard for rasengan. But rasenshuriken was achieved simply because he had such large reserves and a teacher to tell him kage bunshin's uses. If Minato had Naruto's reserves, he'd have done it in less than half the time Naruo took.

Sage mode was achieved due to his natural aptitude in it, which was mentioned to be greater than Jiraiya's. So, no hard work there too. KCM was obtained because of Kushina's help which, too was granted to Naruto by Minato's foresight. BM because of his unbeatable talk no + action no jutsu combo.

 

[vasu 32]

what the hell is wrong with people.gosh...
all right i am done explaining over and over again...

 

[Liath]

what about onoki's stone will against madara? at least three or four times all his comrades completely gave up - against madara's meteor, flower tree world, 25 susano clones, even against perfect susano he didnt give up - and he forced them to give it their all every time.