[FEAR] What is True Speed: Body Flicker Analyzed

[OfficialRikudouSennin]

Nice to know but on the Official Naruto Website KMC is above Minato and A speed

 

[Armathyx]

Just wait for the Narutards to show up and start flaming.

 

[FearxDeath]

Just wait for the Narutards to show up and start flaming.

Wait? lol, theyve already come and gone, but im sure theyll come back... they always do x__x

Nice to know but on the Official Naruto Website KMC is above Minato and A speed

We have links for situations like these...

 

[Armathyx]

Don't know, I still didn't see Rinn3gan spamming his bullshït on how Naruto will get Rinnegan and use Chibaku Tensei to create the moon.

 

[FearxDeath]

Don't know, I still didn't see Rinn3gan spamming his bullshït on how Naruto will get Rinnegan and use Chibaku Tensei to create the moon.

ROFL, Naruto Fanboys have no shame!

 

[thegame]

Hi I am back to discuss something, which is partly related to our last discussion. I thought I would take it up with you, since you have looked through this subject quite a lot and give some very good and detailed answers.

My "theory" is that the Kawarimi no jutsu must have shunshin no jutsu integrated in it. The so called "substitution" cannot happen so fast, unless the person is moving super fast to switch himself with an object.

Anyway, I looked a bit at the Naruto Wikia, and I noticed they have put a label called "Hand Seals" even for the Kawarimi. 5 hand seals to be specific. So I remembered our last discussion, where you used the jutsu as an example of a ninjutsu, which requires no hand seals. Anyway I found the place in the manga, where it occurs with hand seals:

Spoiler

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You must be registered for see images

and again:

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So this clearly does show a number of hand seals, but the crucial point is, that the very first hand seal is the same as the one used for Shunshin no jutsu, which would back up my theory even more. I assume some of the other seals may be used to maintain the optical illusion of the person both before and after the attack is successful. I will just quote a small part of Kawarimi no jutsu from the 1st databook as well, as it says there is indeed an illusion involved:
"With this technique, one replaces their own body with a block of wood or something, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful. "
Now the sound genin also says, that Kawarimi is a low level ninjutsu. True, and that is why, we never really see it in high skilled fights between shinobi. This also helps my theory, since if it was instant substitution, it would be rather useful in any fight.

Now lets go back to the point where Kakashi is attacked by the demon brothers:
First we see Kakashi with his back towards the demon brothers:

Spoiler

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This would potentially give him the chance to do the seals beforehand, as this would be impossible after being caught. Now later the demon brothers even ask Kakashi, how he knew they were coming, which I interpret, as they wonder how he managed to do the kawarimi without them seeing it, after all chunin rank shinobi, should be able to notice something like that:

Spoiler

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If we had seen Kakashi do the seals, it had been no "big excitement" from one chapter to the other anyways.
Only problem with my theory is, that Kawarimi is an E-rank ninjutsu, while shunshin is a D-rank. This poses a problem, if the Kawarimi utilises the Shunshin :erm: anyway, it could be due to the short distance, and the "large" amount of seals needed, making it suitable for less situations, whereas a shunshin alone is better, since you can just escape instead of going back with the dummy as well, and use it in more suitable ways. After all a jutsu is not feared for what it is, but how it is used or may be used.

No reason to continue the last debate, as you said, however, even if shunshin does or does not require any seals, my above theory could be valid. I just didn't want to contradict myself again regarding it, so I took the example with Kakashi and the demon brothers to explain it as well.

 

[FearxDeath]

Spoiler

Hi I am back to discuss something, which is partly related to our last discussion. I thought I would take it up with you, since you have looked through this subject quite a lot and give some very good and detailed answers.

My "theory" is that the Kawarimi no jutsu must have shunshin no jutsu integrated in it. The so called "substitution" cannot happen so fast, unless the person is moving super fast to switch himself with an object.

Anyway, I looked a bit at the Naruto Wikia, and I noticed they have put a label called "Hand Seals" even for the Kawarimi. 5 hand seals to be specific. So I remembered our last discussion, where you used the jutsu as an example of a ninjutsu, which requires no hand seals. Anyway I found the place in the manga, where it occurs with hand seals:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

and again:

You must be registered for see images

So this clearly does show a number of hand seals, but the crucial point is, that the very first hand seal is the same as the one used for Shunshin no jutsu, which would back up my theory even more. I assume some of the other seals may be used to maintain the optical illusion of the person both before and after the attack is successful. I will just quote a small part of Kawarimi no jutsu from the 1st databook as well, as it says there is indeed an illusion involved:
"With this technique, one replaces their own body with a block of wood or something, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful. "
Now the sound genin also says, that Kawarimi is a low level ninjutsu. True, and that is why, we never really see it in high skilled fights between shinobi. This also helps my theory, since if it was instant substitution, it would be rather useful in any fight.

Now lets go back to the point where Kakashi is attacked by the demon brothers:
First we see Kakashi with his back towards the demon brothers:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This would potentially give him the chance to do the seals beforehand, as this would be impossible after being caught. Now later the demon brothers even ask Kakashi, how he knew they were coming, which I interpret, as they wonder how he managed to do the kawarimi without them seeing it, after all chunin rank shinobi, should be able to notice something like that:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

If we had seen Kakashi do the seals, it had been no "big excitement" from one chapter to the other anyways.
Only problem with my theory is, that Kawarimi is an E-rank ninjutsu, while shunshin is a D-rank. This poses a problem, if the Kawarimi utilises the Shunshin :erm: anyway, it could be due to the short distance, and the "large" amount of seals needed, making it suitable for less situations, whereas a shunshin alone is better, since you can just escape instead of going back with the dummy as well, and use it in more suitable ways. After all a jutsu is not feared for what it is, but how it is used or may be used.

No reason to continue the last debate, as you said, however, even if shunshin does or does not require any seals, my above theory could be valid. I just didn't want to contradict myself again regarding it, so I took the example with Kakashi and the demon brothers to explain it as well.

Nice to have you back Mr.Game!

Your hypothesis about Kawarimi is most likely correct, Kawarimi may be a variation or a combination jutsu mixed with some kind of summon.

Personally I think the reason we dont see Kawarimi used is because there is a better alternative, which is a clone jutsu. Which is harder to see coming but also reduces the risk since you dont have to wait until right before the attack lands to use it. Shunshin in combination with a Clone Jutsu is far better than Shunshin in combination with summoning a log, since the clone can be used defensively and offensively... the log not so much x__x. By the way the scans you post cant be read, next time use the NarutoBase Manga finder to look up scans because at least then I can see them.

Wait wait wait, "First we see Kakashi with his back towards the demon brothers:" While he back is towards them we see his hands are in his pockets, and by the time he even manages to get them out of his pockets he has been caught. Even during the reply where Kakashi talks about the sunny day his hands are in his pockets. Yet we have never seen any shinobi form seals without having his hands interconnected and up to his chest, shown here [

You must be registered for see links

]. Eitherway it stands to reason that if a Hokage can turn a 41 seal jutsu into a 1 seal jutsu without any water around then a Hokage level ninja like Kakashi can turn a simple 1/5 seal genin level jutsu into a no seal jutsu if it meant him escaping an attack at the last minute.

But apart from that I really do agree with you, Kawarimi must be a combination jutsu of some sort, to me the best combination would be a mix between Shunshin and Summoning/Reverse Summoning Jutsu(Summoning the Log then reverse summoning yourself to its location or perhaps you just summon the log and then run and hide somewhere, either one works.) And not to freak you out, but you know how the first seal for shunshin is also the first seal of Kawarimi? Guess what the 2nd seal of Kawarimi is also the first seal to? Summoning Jutsu~!

oh by the way I found the perfect example of not needing a seal. SASUKE! In part 1 he needed to use seals to use Chidori [

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] But in Part 2 he is constantly shown using Chidori without a seal. I wish I had noticed that sooner, it would have saved us alot of stress debating over the 2nd hokage lol @__@

 

[thegame]

Spoiler

Nice to have you back Mr.Game!

Your hypothesis about Kawarimi is most likely correct, Kawarimi may be a variation or a combination jutsu mixed with some kind of summon.

Personally I think the reason we dont see Kawarimi used is because there is a better alternative, which is a clone jutsu. Which is harder to see coming but also reduces the risk since you dont have to wait until right before the attack lands to use it. Shunshin in combination with a Clone Jutsu is far better than Shunshin in combination with summoning a log, since the clone can be used defensively and offensively... the log not so much x__x. By the way the scans you post cant be read, next time use the NarutoBase Manga finder to look up scans because at least then I can see them.

Wait wait wait, "First we see Kakashi with his back towards the demon brothers:" While he back is towards them we see his hands are in his pockets, and by the time he even manages to get them out of his pockets he has been caught. Even during the reply where Kakashi talks about the sunny day his hands are in his pockets. Yet we have never seen any shinobi form seals without having his hands interconnected and up to his chest, shown here [

You must be registered for see links

]. Eitherway it stands to reason that if a Hokage can turn a 41 seal jutsu into a 1 seal jutsu without any water around then a Hokage level ninja like Kakashi can turn a simple 1/5 seal genin level jutsu into a no seal jutsu if it meant him escaping an attack at the last minute.

But apart from that I really do agree with you, Kawarimi must be a combination jutsu of some sort, to me the best combination would be a mix between Shunshin and Summoning/Reverse Summoning Jutsu(Summoning the Log then reverse summoning yourself to its location or perhaps you just summon the log and then run and hide somewhere, either one works.) And not to freak you out, but you know how the first seal for shunshin is also the first seal of Kawarimi? Guess what the 2nd seal of Kawarimi is also the first seal to? Summoning Jutsu~!

oh by the way I found the perfect example of not needing a seal. SASUKE! In part 1 he needed to use seals to use Chidori [

You must be registered for see links

] But in Part 2 he is constantly shown using Chidori without a seal. I wish I had noticed that sooner, it would have saved us alot of stress debating over the 2nd hokage lol @__@

Sorry about the scans, mangareader always worked for me, but I will keep that in mind for next time.
You post some valid arguments as always. Lets not discuss the water dragon again, however, if Kishi had to show the seals over and over, it would be quite bothersome wouldn't it? This could explain, why we don't see Sasuke use a seal for chidori anymore. Tbh I think it is the same for most of his katons, though I didn't look this up, so this could further back your evidence up.

Also one of my points about us not seeing Kakashi doing the seals, mainly was that Kishi wanted to keep the excitement for next chapter. As we see Kakashi "dying" in the end of one chapter, and then he comes back in the next. You may say, he should then have shown it in the flashback, so yeah somewhat it can be argued for. Anyway, to me it's kinda like we never saw Tobi with MS despite using his MS ability all the time. This is the same reason. If Kishi had shown us his MS, there had been no excitement about his identity. And again, we never actually saw his eyes, while he was intangible.

Also I thought about that with the summoning jutsu, so it may indeed be a variation with that as well, however, then you would certainly need seals Probably it can be done in a number of ways. I mean like the first get the bells from Kakashi training with team 7, Kakashi simply switches himself with one of Naruto's clones. This seems so basic, he could just do it with a shunshin alone, since Naruto at this point wouldn't notice.

 

[yoshimitsu]

You must be very conceited. "[fear]" ?

And it's fairly obvious Naruto knows power is not everything. Many times has Kishi made Naruto realize he needs help from his comrades.

 

[osba]

Hi I am back to discuss something, which is partly related to our last discussion. I thought I would take it up with you, since you have looked through this subject quite a lot and give some very good and detailed answers.

My "theory" is that the Kawarimi no jutsu must have shunshin no jutsu integrated in it. The so called "substitution" cannot happen so fast, unless the person is moving super fast to switch himself with an object.

Anyway, I looked a bit at the Naruto Wikia, and I noticed they have put a label called "Hand Seals" even for the Kawarimi. 5 hand seals to be specific. So I remembered our last discussion, where you used the jutsu as an example of a ninjutsu, which requires no hand seals. Anyway I found the place in the manga, where it occurs with hand seals:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

and again:

You must be registered for see images

So this clearly does show a number of hand seals, but the crucial point is, that the very first hand seal is the same as the one used for Shunshin no jutsu, which would back up my theory even more. I assume some of the other seals may be used to maintain the optical illusion of the person both before and after the attack is successful. I will just quote a small part of Kawarimi no jutsu from the 1st databook as well, as it says there is indeed an illusion involved:
"With this technique, one replaces their own body with a block of wood or something, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful. "
Now the sound genin also says, that Kawarimi is a low level ninjutsu. True, and that is why, we never really see it in high skilled fights between shinobi. This also helps my theory, since if it was instant substitution, it would be rather useful in any fight.

Now lets go back to the point where Kakashi is attacked by the demon brothers:
First we see Kakashi with his back towards the demon brothers:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

This would potentially give him the chance to do the seals beforehand, as this would be impossible after being caught. Now later the demon brothers even ask Kakashi, how he knew they were coming, which I interpret, as they wonder how he managed to do the kawarimi without them seeing it, after all chunin rank shinobi, should be able to notice something like that:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

If we had seen Kakashi do the seals, it had been no "big excitement" from one chapter to the other anyways.
Only problem with my theory is, that Kawarimi is an E-rank ninjutsu, while shunshin is a D-rank. This poses a problem, if the Kawarimi utilises the Shunshin :erm: anyway, it could be due to the short distance, and the "large" amount of seals needed, making it suitable for less situations, whereas a shunshin alone is better, since you can just escape instead of going back with the dummy as well, and use it in more suitable ways. After all a jutsu is not feared for what it is, but how it is used or may be used.

No reason to continue the last debate, as you said, however, even if shunshin does or does not require any seals, my above theory could be valid. I just didn't want to contradict myself again regarding it, so I took the example with Kakashi and the demon brothers to explain it as well.

Hand seals are only made to "mold" the chakra :yeah:
Hence someone with alot of experience doing the jutsu (say naruto with shadowclones) and that has alot of charka control can do it without using handseals.

 

[FearxDeath]

You must be very conceited. "[fear]" ?

And it's fairly obvious Naruto knows power is not everything. Many times has Kishi made Naruto realize he needs help from his comrades.

I am baffled by this reply, litterally... I am not quite sure what you mean or what you are getting at. I think I should be offended but... Im not sure? I put fear in my titles for ease of reference for people who like my threads in general. *Stole the idea from the infamous Dr.Proof*.

And the last part about Naruto knowing he needs help... I could be grasping at straws here but did you even read my thread?

 

[FearxDeath]

Proof that the Raikage uses Body Flicker

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