If you want to get technical, aka get into semantics, speed pretty much how fast you go from point A to point B, not including fictional space time techniques. Agility is the ability to be able to stop, go, change directions, and react. And I'd say Minato is more in line with the latter. He probably wouldn't be able to win in a Foot race with 7 gates Gai (without KM cloak), but he sure as hell can avoid it and counter.
[FEAR] What is True Speed: Body Flicker Analyzed
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thegame
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Well first of all, it doesn't seem like Tobirama and Kakashi are using the exact same techniques. Also it was used by a mist shinobi, so they may have different ways around things. And finally, Kakashi/Zabuza did it in water, while Tobirama didn't, which again may affect things (it should be easier to manipulate water created directly from your own chakra than manipulating nature with your chakra).
While you are somewhat correct in your point, that some jutsu can be used with less amount of seals, if you get better at them, some jutsu always require the same standard seals.
I am assuming this is the case for the Shunshin no jutsu, simply because every instance we have seen of it, were conducted with the same hand seal, even in quite desperate situations, where limiting the amount of chakra would just bring more risk. Now lets quote my point from the databook as well:
"A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily boost the user's reflexes."
I thought I made it clear above though, but to me, it seems pretty clear that the diversion (for instance a smoke screen) is very important when utilising the shunshin no jutsu. We also see this in every other case, but for Naruto and guess we could implement A to this discussion as well, since according to you, he would be using this jutsu as well.
Now yesterday night I didn't read the thread very thoroughly, I now did, and must say (and rep you) for the hardcore amount of evidence you bring for every small subject. Well done. So the way I understand you now, is that the Kuybi cloak around Naruto constantly vitalises his body with chakra, and thus you deduce it to be the same, as what is done, when any person utilises the shunshin no jutsu? And same goes for A, he just uses his lightning armor, which he is cloaked in.
This I could somewhat agree to, however, I would definitely not rank these jutsu the same way, as the ordinary shunshin no jutsu, that any shinobi can use. The only way to avoid speeding up the flow of chakra without using hand seals, would be if you have a much more immense chakra flowing around you, which Naruto and A both have.
Now Bee do ask "was that the shunshin no jutsu", when he sees Naruto's high speed movement, but I don't really see this as evidence either, since when referring to the shunshin no jutsu, it's because he was not able to see him move, as he says, he only saw a yellow flash. And I haven't seen any evidence or notion about Raikage being using it either.
So basically, it's just an assumption. Any other case, where it's being used, the person do a hand seal, and often even says shunshin no jutsu. While some of the way, A and Naruto use their high speed movement, is indeed similar to the shunshin no jutsu, I also see too many differences for me to simply agree, that it must be the same jutsu.
The advantages accompanied in the way Naruto and A utilise speed more speed and reflexes are so huge compared to a standard shunshin no jutsu, that I wouldn't call it the same. But that may just be me, however, it's not like Kishi has labelled it yet either?
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thegame
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Now, if I were to comment on the actual topic in this thread as well, I somewhat agree, that a persons reflexes determine his speed. This being said, a standard shunshin no jutsu, whether it's being used by Minato or Kakashi cannot compare to A and Naruto's, because they cloak themselves in immense chakra, allowing them to constantly vitalise their body with speed.
Now this being said, reflexes is also highly dependent on other abilities such as sensing - or even more important - the ability to see through an attack (predicting where it comes from). In other words, it's almost impossible to determine, what is pure reflexes, and what is affected by other abilities. For instance the sharingan, would have huge effects on the wielders reflexes, I would say, but so has sage mode, which boosts the sensing abilities.
But all in all, you are correct with the deduction about the body flicker technique, but as I said above, there is difference from Naruto and A's body flicker compared to for instance Kakashi or Minato, simply because they are utilising it at all time, which also greatly boosts their reflexes. Also I believe that Naruto's was only faster than Raikage's, because he had better sensing abilities, not necessarily reflexes (although one could argue, that the sensing abilities gave better reflexes).
Now this being said, reflexes is also highly dependent on other abilities such as sensing - or even more important - the ability to see through an attack (predicting where it comes from). In other words, it's almost impossible to determine, what is pure reflexes, and what is affected by other abilities. For instance the sharingan, would have huge effects on the wielders reflexes, I would say, but so has sage mode, which boosts the sensing abilities.
But all in all, you are correct with the deduction about the body flicker technique, but as I said above, there is difference from Naruto and A's body flicker compared to for instance Kakashi or Minato, simply because they are utilising it at all time, which also greatly boosts their reflexes. Also I believe that Naruto's was only faster than Raikage's, because he had better sensing abilities, not necessarily reflexes (although one could argue, that the sensing abilities gave better reflexes).
FearxDeath
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Hold on... "A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily boost the user's reflexes." Made it seem to you that the diversion was necessary? You do realize what occasionally means right?
Not just accordingly to me, according to the scan I showed when Killer bee questiosn whether or not he used shunshin because he was so fast and Yamato says he isnt as good as the 3rd yet... Naruto's base speed is not at the level of shunshin... that is just retarded. If that was the case then why doesnt he just run up and rasengan people before they have time to react, its ridiculously outrageous.
I think you may be mixed up about what I meant, What I meant was that thanks to KCM when Naruto uses shunshin it is alot faster. As Naruto's normal shunshin is not that fast. This happens because of the kind of Chakra he is charging himself with while in KCM.
You keep bringing up seals, yet there is no reason to believe shunshin requires hand seals and you have given no reason to believe it either, I completely disproved the reason you had for believing it and you ignored the points I made. 1) Tobirama and Zabuza were not using different techniques, they were one in the same, but even if the techniques did have slight differences why would that amount to a difference from 44 seals being needed to tobirama only needing 1. Not to mention that Zabuza had water around him and Tobirama had none.
You saw no evidence for the Raikage using shunshin because I gave no evidence of the Raikage using shunshin, him using shunshin doesnt add or take away from my thread and thus I didnt add it.
This conversation between us is turning into me having to restate and re-explain everything that I have already mentioned in the thread so at this point I would just ask you to re-read it without your baises and see if you can take something away from it. Not being brash but I really just dislike repeating myself or clarifying something I already feel to be quite clear. Like I said in the first reply, your entire premise is based on the notion that you think all jutsu require hand seals. But Kawarimi requires no hand seals [
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]Please give me a scan of a person using a hand seal while using shunshin or saying its name as you told me it said so in the handbook and that was wrong. I know a 1 hand seal is used in the first chapter of Naruto and other than it no hand seals or words are ever used again.
You say you see differences, but the only difference you have ever mentioned is the fact that a seal is required which you havent dont anything to prove... why make a claim that I obviously disagree with without giving proof, you do realize a scan is going to be the first thing I ask for right?
thegame
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Yes, it just suggests, that it can be something else as well, like sand or whatever... And yes, the diversion plays an important part, as it is what disguises the movement/direction or the user.
I agree with this. Of course Kurama's chakra makes a difference here, just like lightning manipulated chakra would make a difference compared to others.
The techniques still aren't the same. They have different names in the scans you provided. And the so called "slight difference" is an utter joke to me. Kakashi/Zabuza manipulates the water around them to create and control the water dragon. Tobirama spits out the water, he uses to create a water dragon. When you use your mouth to spit out some kind of element and manipulate it meanwhile, you use completely different parts of your body to create power and shape of the jutsu. But it would also cost more chakra. Besides, this logic is idiotic. more than 40 seals reduced to 1? How does that sound to you? In the start, Naruto was much about hand seals, but the importance of them have been reduced. But it is certain, that any jutsu requires hand chakra manipulation in a certain manner. Just like a bunshin needs a simple hand seal, so does a shunshin. It is true, that some shinobi can do this manipulation in other manners, such as Naruto and A. You want evidence, but where is the evidence of any other shinobi using it without doing a hand seal? And those, where you don't see the hands, are quite useless
Yeah, I know that, I just wanted to use him as an example as well, since according to your logic, he has to be using it as well.
If I said, that all jutsu require hand seals, I apologize, of course they don't, but they require some kind of chakra manipulation. You can do this with other methods as well, which is what I agreed with in my last reply as well. That Naruto and A do this manipulation with the chakra they are cloaked in.
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I thought I gave prove.. Besides, you made a very detailed thread, so I thought you had looked through some of these examples as well, lol
Besides, you don't have more proof than I. Even if you get mad or upset at my response, it does not change much of the fact, that there is no clear usage of shunshin, when Naruto makes high speed movement. The only evidence is, that he is moving much faster than his base speed, but there is also no evidence, that this is can't be done with something like a cloak of Kuybi chakra. As far as I recall, the cloak on all alliance members, also seemed to make their speed higher.
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FearxDeath
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I wrote a few paragraphs responding to you in detail but I can tell this is going to lead no where... Good point, you have utterly proved me wrong with all the evidence you have given me, although you have only shown 1 scan so far and even that was nonconclusive, regardless well done...
For the lulz sake I will say this...
"While you are somewhat correct in your point, that some jutsu can be used with less amount of seals, if you get better at them, some jutsu always require the same standard seals.
I am assuming this is the case for the Shunshin no jutsu, simply because every instance we have seen of it, were conducted with the same hand seal, even in quite desperate situations, where limiting the amount of chakra would just bring more risk."
"If I said, that all jutsu require hand seals, I apologize, of course they don't, but they require some kind of chakra manipulation."
"And what is more to this, is, that if you find other shinobis using shunshin no jutsu, where you can see their hand seal, you will notice it is the same. It's not just some random seal necessary to manipulate chakra. The seals matter,"
"In the start, Naruto was much about hand seals, but the importance of them have been reduced. But it is certain, that any jutsu requires hand chakra manipulation in a certain manner." [
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]And Lastly "It is true, that some shinobi can do this manipulation in other manners, such as Naruto and A. You want evidence, but where is the evidence of any other shinobi using it without doing a hand seal? And those, where you don't see the hands, are quite useless" You ask for prove of a ninja using shunshin without using the seal then say a scan where you dont see the hands are quite useless... What your asking for is impossible
One more thing [
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], "The ninja may use a hand seal like below to perform a jutsu. A ninja will also manipulate his chakra in order to do so. Not all jutsus need a hand seal, like Taijutsu, but the ninja might use a handseal only to focus their chakra to a certain area(s) of his body."I hate to be a jerk but this is as far as we go my friend, at this point we must simply agree to disagree, I appreciate your input as it wasnt completely without merit. But I simply disagree. I hope I didnt come off as too irate.
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valandil988
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Nobody actually answered whether or not Naruto actually knows the Shunshin....because if hes been getting by using his base speed just enhanced by SM, KCM and then by BM and getting up beyond even advanced shunshin speeds....Well that's pretty bad-ass. And all this talk about Sasuke being "Faster" with his Shunshin would pretty much stop because its a meaningless contest.
Sasuke is only "That" fast for the duration of the jutsu its not a sustained lvl of speed like KCM or BM. Just imagine what Naruto's speed would be like if he knew the shunshin in those modes....lets just say that there wouldn't be much difference in arrival times with the Hiraishin lol.
You both said that Bee referenced Naruto's speed as being "Was that the Shunshin no jutsu?", some people seem to take that as confirmation that it was the Shunshin, but considering we as the reader have never seen Naruto use it then its probably not (Its too cool a jutsu for him as the lame main character so he doesn't get to play with it lol). Its likely just regular enhancement boosted to absurd lvls by KCM. Ergo if Naruto HAD actually used the Shunshin no jutsu to get to Kisame....well he likely would have gone right THROUGH the wall and Kisame at the same time....and maybe turned his body into paste as an unintended side effect lol.
From what I can understand Naruto actually had to EASE back on his normal chakra enhancements as we can see his first attempt put his foot through a wall. So naturally when he learned more control he eased back on his enhancements to keep his speed manageable....So You could say he is the "fastest" in sheer speed (distance traveled per sec) but not "Fast" enough to utilize it meaningfully like maybe Minato or the 3rd Raikage could.
With BM Kurama might be enhancing his senses to the point where these limits are removed. Anyway ideas responses?
Sasuke is only "That" fast for the duration of the jutsu its not a sustained lvl of speed like KCM or BM. Just imagine what Naruto's speed would be like if he knew the shunshin in those modes....lets just say that there wouldn't be much difference in arrival times with the Hiraishin lol.
You both said that Bee referenced Naruto's speed as being "Was that the Shunshin no jutsu?", some people seem to take that as confirmation that it was the Shunshin, but considering we as the reader have never seen Naruto use it then its probably not (Its too cool a jutsu for him as the lame main character so he doesn't get to play with it lol). Its likely just regular enhancement boosted to absurd lvls by KCM. Ergo if Naruto HAD actually used the Shunshin no jutsu to get to Kisame....well he likely would have gone right THROUGH the wall and Kisame at the same time....and maybe turned his body into paste as an unintended side effect lol.
From what I can understand Naruto actually had to EASE back on his normal chakra enhancements as we can see his first attempt put his foot through a wall. So naturally when he learned more control he eased back on his enhancements to keep his speed manageable....So You could say he is the "fastest" in sheer speed (distance traveled per sec) but not "Fast" enough to utilize it meaningfully like maybe Minato or the 3rd Raikage could.
With BM Kurama might be enhancing his senses to the point where these limits are removed. Anyway ideas responses?
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FearxDeath
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One thing you should keep in mind is that Shunshin is a low tier jutsu like using a clone, almost every gennin knows it which is a testimate to how easy it is to use... Granted I got this info from NarutoWiki, I am too lazy to do the investigative research atm, but for now I think for something so trivial that they can be trusted.
The arguement of whether Sasukes shunshin is as good as Naruto is still valid though, Naruto does know shunshin for those modes, Shunshin is a simple technique where you charge your body with chakra for a burst of high speed movements, The thing that makes Naruto so fast during KCM is the fact that he is charging his body with KCM Chakra. The same goes for BM and SM, he would probably be even faster if he could merge KCM with SM but I dont ever see that happening.
Lastly Yamato pretty much validated it by saying he wasnt as good as the 3rd, if it wasnt shunshin then the sentence would need to be reworded in order to make sense, but if said in light of Killer bee comment then it makes sense.
"Its likely just regular enhancement boosted to absurd lvls by KCM... So You could say he is the "fastest" in sheer speed" Sigh, a Naruto Fanboy... This conversation is over.
valandil988
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Ahuh okay thx for the reply with the parting insult it made me feel good. I don't particularly "like" Naruto I think hes an idiot but I also don't think Sasuke is all that cool either he a bit of a ****. So tbh I'm a "Naruto" Fan as in the manga. The fact that I'm stating Naruto might be physically "Faster" but not reflexively faster than everyone else in the damn manga doesn't mean I'm a "fanboy" to be ridiculed if I can reason it out. I'm agreeing with you jeez last time I agree with you thanks. Being faster doesn't always help running into a wall won't defeat your enemy faster.
Yamato said Something about a golden flash and him being not as good as the fourth yet. I don't remember him going on about the Shunshin at all. I do remember Bee mentioning it tho.
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Looked it up, Yamato just says some stuff about Naruto not being on the lvl of the fourth just yet. To bad we don't have the Manga stream translation, tho I'm not sure if its very much different from this trans. There's not much ambiguity here.
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Tho not a good source it says "Most" ninja know it....and if we didn't notice Naruto is dumb as a plank....so it wouldn't surprise me terribly if he didn't know it.
They also define shunshin a little differently from simple chakra enhancement.
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FearxDeath
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I understand what you mean, but when you say things like:
"Well that's pretty bad-ass. And all this talk about Sasuke being "Faster" with his Shunshin would pretty much stop because its a meaningless contest."
"Just imagine what Naruto's speed would be like if he knew the shunshin in those modes....lets just say that there wouldn't be much difference in arrival times with the Hiraishin lol." Btw what I am saying in the thread is that the speed we see Naruto display is actually him using Shunshin, that is not his base speed.
"So You could say he is the "fastest" in sheer speed (distance traveled per sec) but not "Fast" enough to utilize it meaningfully like maybe Minato or the 3rd Raikage could."
"With BM Kurama might be enhancing his senses to the point where these limits are removed."
Well lets just say that those things make you look like a Naruto Fanboy, not to mention that I disagree with mostly all of it. I really do feel as though the speed we see Naruto display is merely him using Shunshin which is merely supercharged by Kyubi Chakra.
In respose to your first real comment let me explain what was said, which really shouldnt be necessary... But nonetheless.
Yamato: Huh
Killer Bee: Was that Shunshin no Jutsu?... He on the offenssive. Just like
Killer Bee: A Golden Flash
Naruto: I hit the wall so hard my leg got stuck
Yamato: He's not as good as the Yodaime yet, Ill take care of Naruto!
Yamato: Bee Please go after that guy
If He was speaking in terms of Naruto's speed then he would have said that Naruto doesnt have good control yet or something like that, but when he refference the 3rd in light of Naruto the implication is a Jutsu the both are using and comparing Naruto's skill with the Jutsu to the 3rd. The way it is worded implies that Yamato was talking about a jutsu which is only strengthened by the fact that Killer Bee speaks about the jutsu in the scan prior.
Naruto doesnt know a genin level ninjutsu? He learned Shadow Clone, Rasengan, Wind Style Rasengan, Master Chakra control etc... but doesnt know a basic technique that pretty much everyone above genin rank know... Good luck with that, also I dont even describe shunshin as a simple chakra enchancement, idk what gave you that impression and secondly they describe shunshin pretty much the exact same way I describe it in the thread, but perhaps I should have found that link and copy and pasted it into my thread, then everyone would have been happy... I even linked a scan for reference... sigh
FearxDeath
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I would think that Speed and Agility go hand in hand, well atleast in the Ninja world. But besides that there has been no mention of agility, like at all x__x, interesting none the less.
psukkar
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1(Minato uses time space jutsu which is fast as the speed of light. That tells you that if someone else used the same tech as minato they would be just as fast each other movement wise. These also reflexes that come into play too but the technique is what gives u the movement speed not the user.
2)Body flicker justly uses chakra and varies we the raikage has a good one with naruto even better because the foxes chakra is stronger and therefore it makes techniques that use chakra better in this case speed.
3) physical movement via muscles, gay is the fastest by in this way. When he opened the 6th gate he went supersonic, the speed of sound in air.
That's that when it comes to speed.
The real question is, is Kishi going to make it possible to surpass time- space techniques, Kishi have made everything surpass able the recent one being the death god seal and u don't see why Kishi will make the speed from time space techs be a limit that no one can surpass.
2)Body flicker justly uses chakra and varies we the raikage has a good one with naruto even better because the foxes chakra is stronger and therefore it makes techniques that use chakra better in this case speed.
3) physical movement via muscles, gay is the fastest by in this way. When he opened the 6th gate he went supersonic, the speed of sound in air.
That's that when it comes to speed.
The real question is, is Kishi going to make it possible to surpass time- space techniques, Kishi have made everything surpass able the recent one being the death god seal and u don't see why Kishi will make the speed from time space techs be a limit that no one can surpass.
FearxDeath
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Ya... I dont see Kishi making anything Faster than instant teleportation x__x lol... but everything else you said seems viable.
Something to think about:
"The Body Flicker Technique is a high-speed movement technique, allowing a ninja to move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed.[2] To an observer, it appears as if the user has teleported. A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily vitalise the body and move at extreme speeds. The amount of chakra required depends on the overall distance and elevation between the user and the intended destination."
Rock Lee uses real speed, apparently.
He can't use ninjutsu properly, so that'd mean...
A mixture of using chakra to use shunshin no jutsu and muscle strength.
Freaking muscles to be THAT fast.
But honestly, you're right; Naruto is still stupid. 99% of the ninjas in that manga are.
Naruto is only smartish on a standard set by the NV.
"The Body Flicker Technique is a high-speed movement technique, allowing a ninja to move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed.[2] To an observer, it appears as if the user has teleported. A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily vitalise the body and move at extreme speeds. The amount of chakra required depends on the overall distance and elevation between the user and the intended destination."
Rock Lee uses real speed, apparently.
He can't use ninjutsu properly, so that'd mean...
A mixture of using chakra to use shunshin no jutsu and muscle strength.
Freaking muscles to be THAT fast.
C'mon, it's just using chakra to increase your speed. And according to the databook, Naruto is as smart as Neji. Just a little more dumb than Sasuke. The occasional "retarted moments" are supposed to be for fun only. It doesn't affect his thinking abilities in any way, because he's still able to think properly when he needs to.
But honestly, you're right; Naruto is still stupid. 99% of the ninjas in that manga are.
Naruto is only smartish on a standard set by the NV.
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FearxDeath
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Actually take a look at this, I pulled this from the NarutoWiki which itself isnt a great source, but seeing as to how this is not conjecture as much as an observation I think they should be considered credible in this case.
"Though Rock Lee is a ninja unable to use ninjutsu, this doesn't mean he is unable to mold and use chakra, as shown when using his tree and water walking skills. However, he is unable to use it externally as ninjutsu or genjutsu, and instead uses it internally to augment his taijutsu."
Shunshin is one of the skills I believe to fall into the "internal augment" category. As all it really does is boost ones taijutsu ability and if the jutsu itself has been said to be so easy that everyone above genin rank is capable of doing it then I dont see why Lee would not be able to use it.
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That's why I said
"A mixture of using chakra to use shunshin no jutsu and muscle strength."
Rikudou Sennin balls
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This is a great thread. I was thinking Naruto said that in sage mode his sensing abilities helped him in dodging the 3rd Raikages one finger nuke(I can't link the page now) In both modes Naruto is a sensory type. Even in Kyuubi Chakra Mode he can still sense normal chakra, but not as we'll as he could in sage mode. He knew the hokages were coming yet they didn't have negative emotions. So in Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto doesn't have as great reflexes as Minato but I think it's his refined reflexes mixed with his sensory abilities.
Another thing I should point out is the fact that Bijuu Mode is faster than Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto. With just speed alone he reflected 4 Tailed Beast Bombs. If Naruto were to go up against A in speed in sure A couldn't even hold a candle to Naruto now making Naruto the fastest person ALIVE in pure speed.
Another thing I should point out is the fact that Bijuu Mode is faster than Kyuubi Chakra Mode Naruto. With just speed alone he reflected 4 Tailed Beast Bombs. If Naruto were to go up against A in speed in sure A couldn't even hold a candle to Naruto now making Naruto the fastest person ALIVE in pure speed.
osba
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mhm imo naruto is the shinobi on the battlefield that has the biggest potential.. not obito because hes not in charge anymore.. according to my other thread naruto will grow at least 3x as strong when he gains the yin chakra, and who knows, maybe he would actually learn something new? XD
FearxDeath
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Yah I completely agreed with you, I was merely backing you up
And yes, Naruto is alot smarter than alot of people give him credit, half the peope he defeats is because he litterally outplayed them. 3rd Raikage with the double bluff rasengan, Pain with the clone shadow shuriken, he always manages to get the 1up on his opponents, master chakra manipulation to the point of being able to use the rasenshuriken and being able to adapt to the kyubi's chakra then manipulate it so that it could be given to each individual of the shinobi alliance,yet people want to believe he is too dumb to learn a technique that everyone above genin level knows and to weak to learn a technique that Rock Lee knows...
The two are not mutually exclussive.
I agree with you in the first paragraph but the one thing I hate is when people compare BM to KCM... THEY ARE THE SAME THING. Bijuu mode is when he stole Kurama's Chakra from him and was using it without his permission, KCM is when Kurama and Naruto work together each sharing chakra. There is no difference in strenght or speed as in both cases the only thing happening is that Naruto is using Kurama's Chakra. The only difference is that in one case Naruto can go into tailed beast mode where he litterally looks like kurama and he cant in the other, not to mention the fact that in KCM Kurama cant help out naruto.
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