(Spoiler) Tsunade VS Tobirama

grizzlyshree

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um ... not really that thread went in depth explaining the question. You just looked at the answer and gave a pretty sad reply. so then I guess I've no choice but to present each argument here to be countered.
So I well try to make this as rudimentary as possible as I tend to be verbose. Madara clearly compares her strength and speed to Ay's
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The reason for comparing strength is obvious, they both have super strength so in order for the readers to know who is stronger Kishi directly tells us, despite there already being hints of this. Kishi goes on to further highlight this difference in strength in the battle. So why compare speed? I think that because he was about to show Tsunade is high speed combat, he wanted readers to know that speed is still Ay's thing. His shtick if you will. However, that would also serve as a way of telling readers that she is not slow as she was worthy of being compared in this regard.
Argument 1
We'll first start by showing that Tsunade cleared a fairly large distance quickly which prompted Madara's comment. This is how far away from Madara Tsunade started out,
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the distance is presented on the page starting 577 and again on page 3 where she covers the distance.
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For those who claim because Kishi's proportions are sometimes off and that we shouldn't place much weight on the distance, then the distance seen on page 3 of chapter 577 should be the best approximation of distance to go by as that is the one used while she is closing the distance. Considering how fast the distance was closed, it is a natural conclusion that Tsunade moves quickly, and it was that quick motion to which Madara was referencing. I also find it odd, that Tsunade is the only character I've heard the "Kishi messed up on the distance, she didn't really move that fast" argument, when discussing speed feats. What I also find as odd, is that people claim Tsunade has never been said to be fast. Which is interesting considering, even in part 1 we saw her in one battle, a battle in which she was out of shape, and power levels were decreased. (I don't see some one trying to argue from part 1 feats in regards to any character who has a battle in part 2)The very next battle we've seen her in, Madara comments on her speed. And before she challenged Pein, she, in a fatigued state, managed to beat the Anbu to Pein and surprising SM Naruto
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Notice the twitch in her eye, it means one of two things, either she noticed Pain was attacking, or that she realized she had reached her limit and could no more. The only thing which may remotely suggest average speed was the battle against Kabuto, who may I add is an evasion expert. And she still managed to surprise him a few times, as well as blitz her attendant, and catch Orochimaru off guard. But nothing has ever pointed to Tsunade being slow. Moving off of this tangent...

Argument 2Now because this feat comes directly before Madara's comments on speed, we can gather that the two are related. Similarly the following feat happens only two pages after his comment on her speed.
In the scan that's about to be presented. Ay and Oonoki are coming toward Madara's susanoo for a blitz.
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Which is what serves to the reason that we can believe Tsunade is fast. A more careful examination of the page shows that Tsunade is no where in sight.
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In fact, the last time we see her she is at the location where she punched his susanoo.
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Another feature I'm not sure everyone had noticed, but Madara, had not seen her coming at all. Which means during that brief moment after Ay hit his susanoo and he looked at Ay she followed up without him seeing her coming.
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Now some may try to argue, that Ay in fact hit Madara to Tsunade, but this is not the case as we can see in the scan that was meant to be a closer examination of the page. But looking at the very next page we can see they all share close proximity.
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Which means this speed feat for Tsunade is valid.
Argument 3
The next scan involves her on the offensive once again. She managed to get from up here
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all the way to punching what seems to be a Madara who is trying to get away.
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Now notice her position relative to the other kage.
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(This by the way is the distance at which she had traveled Not down to where Madara was but past that original position) At that point she was the person leading the offense and by Madara's admission he was forced to substitute himself with the Mokuton Bunshin.
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Which would make it Tsunade pushing offense that made him resort to such measures.

Now notice the Distance Tsunade once again covers,
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and this time notice how far Tsunade's attack managed to make it before Madara could counter attack.
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Conclusion
All of the above indicate high speed movement.

Also for argument 3, you're assuming Ay was the only person attacking with Tsunade when they all left the branch and moved in closer to attack. And even still she placed Madara in the predicament was the point. It was ultimately her CQC which forced him to use a Mokuton Bunshin.

What I showed in regard to Tsunade.... twice she jumped in front of Orochimaru's blade shocking him because of how quickly she did it. And unless her will power knocked over Orochimaru, that would be a strike that he didn't predict.

So tell me about Tobirama's CQC feats and even his CQC hype. Now show me his Speed feats. Yes, Minato called him fast. But Minato was clearly talking about the reaction speed of the paper from edo tensei being stuck on juubito, as Tobirama couldn't avoid being hit. And his shunshin seems to be on par with the other kages.
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Also I'd like to point out a few more things, she and Ay scared the bejeesus out of Bee and Naruto.
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And I would like to point this out.
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well made analysis, but her speed is average.let us see about tobirama in the coming chapters.
 

Penguin

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Ahem Tsunade wankers here is the deal. In the manga, Tobirama did not show the need of seals to use Hiraishingiri. Hiraishingiri blitz means Tsunade dies in less than a second. She has no time to summon the Slug, or punch him. It is called a blitz. :nindaime:
 

TheEvilOne

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well made analysis, but her speed is average.let us see about tobirama in the coming chapters.

The average is 2, 5 or 3. Tsunade's speed is above the average ( 3, 5 points ). She can also increase her speed with chakra control.
 

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Ahem Tsunade wankers here is the deal. In the manga, Tobirama did not show the need of seals to use Hiraishingiri. Hiraishingiri blitz means Tsunade dies in less than a second. She has no time to summon the Slug, or punch him. It is called a blitz. :nindaime:

it's pointless to argue with them
they think Tsunade is indestructible
 

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Its a piercing attack, like the Kusanagi. Is very weak. That's why Tobirama lost to jounins and to the KinGin bros.

Or Tobirama lost to Kin and Gin because he protected the Raikage? We have no idea how the fight went.

Tobirama lost to "20 master bounty hunters" or someone else. It was most likely Madara he lost to.

Again, you have no counter so you try to downplay Tobirama by saying he lost to people. Fail.
 

TheEvilOne

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Or Tobirama lost to Kin and Gin because he protected the Raikage? We have no idea how the fight went.

Tobirama lost to "20 master bounty hunters" or someone else. It was most likely Madara he lost to.

Again, you have no counter so you try to downplay Tobirama by saying he lost to people. Fail.

1. If the Nidaime Raikage was at least half as strong and half as fast as Ay, he needs no protection.
2. That's speculation. But let's use your logic, probably they killed him before he could react= his reaction time is bad. I can assume this cuz we have no idea how the fight went.
3. That's why I'm always saying Tobirama needs more feats. I'm sure when he gets feats he will shit on Tsunade, but until then Tsunade >> Tobirama.
 

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1. If the Nidaime Raikage was at least half as strong and half as fast as Ay, he needs no protection.
2. That's speculation. But let's use your logic, probably they killed him before he could react= his reaction time is bad. I can assume this cuz we have no idea how the fight went.
3. That's why I'm always saying Tobirama needs more feats. I'm sure when he gets feats he will shit on Tsunade, but until then Tsunade >> Tobirama.

1. Half as fast and half as strong? Asuma level is not Kage level. Please.
2. 20 people attacking at once who are master bounty hunters and they hit you, that does not mean you have bad reaction time, that just means you got gang banged. If Madara fought him, it just means Madara beat Tobirama. Madara is tough.
3. Hiraishingiri is enough to kill Tsunade. She cannot counter it.
 

TheEvilOne

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1. Half as fast and half as strong? Asuma level is not Kage level. Please.
2. 20 people attacking at once who are master bounty hunters and they hit you, that does not mean you have bad reaction time, that just means you got gang banged. If Madara fought him, it just means Madara beat Tobirama. Madara is tough.
3. Hiraishingiri is enough to kill Tsunade. She cannot counter it.

1. Dafuq, So you think Ay is only twice as strong and fast as Asuma?
2. Tobirama was prepared. He knew where they are since he is a great sensor. They didn't even surprised him.
3. Tell a new joke. Tsunade tanked several stabs from the Kusanagi, Susanoo swords, etc. None of them was able to kill her. But lets say Tobirama stabs her chest. Tsunade would grab Tobirama's arm and rip it off. GG.
 

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1. Dafuq, So you think Ay is only twice as strong and fast as Asuma?
2. Tobirama was prepared. He knew where they are since he is a great sensor. They didn't even surprised him.
3. Tell a new joke. Tsunade tanked several stabs from the Kusanagi, Susanoo swords, etc. None of them was able to kill her. But lets say Tobirama stabs her chest. Tsunade would grab Tobirama's arm and rip it off. GG.

1. More or less. Asuma is a pretty skilled fellow and is prett fast/strong.
2. If you know there are 20 Kakashi level ninja trying to kill you, it really doesn't help.
3. Hiraishingiri to the brains and what happens? Tsunade's big forehead would be hard to miss.
 

TheEvilOne

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1. More or less. Asuma is a pretty skilled fellow and is prett fast/strong.
2. If you know there are 20 Kakashi level ninja trying to kill you, it really doesn't help.
3. Hiraishingiri to the brains and what happens? Tsunade's big forehead would be hard to miss.

1. Lol, just lol. Asuma was soloed by Hidan.
2. It helps surprising them and stabbing their big foreheads, because the Hiraishingiri is instant :cool:
3. A stab in the brain isn't killing her. BTW, why would Tobirama aim at her head? He has no intel on her regeneration.
 

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Tsunade wins against. . A character who's feat's aren't impressive, are ambiguous, or would kill him if he were alive.
 

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1. Lol, just lol. Asuma was soloed by Hidan.
2. It helps surprising them and stabbing their big foreheads, because the Hiraishingiri is instant :cool:
3. A stab in the brain isn't killing her. BTW, why would Tobirama aim at her head? He has no intel on her regeneration.

1. So since Hidan, an immortal foe who is very skilled in Taijutsu beat Asuma, you laugh at him?
2. Minato cannot FTG 20 times, neither can Tobirama. It exhausts chakra.
3. A stab in the brain would kill her. It is freaking huge, he would have to try to not hit her to miss that forehead. He doesn't need intel to stab someone in the forehead.
 

TheEvilOne

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1. So since Hidan, an immortal foe who is very skilled in Taijutsu beat Asuma, you laugh at him?
2. Minato cannot FTG 20 times, neither can Tobirama. It exhausts chakra.
3. A stab in the brain would kill her. It is freaking huge, he would have to try to not hit her to miss that forehead. He doesn't need intel to stab someone in the forehead.

1. Lets not continue this. We both know Asuma is not just twice as weak as Ay.
2. *cough* Senju DNA *cough *
3. If a stab in the heart didn't killed her, a stab in the brain won't kill her either, considering she can activate the Byakugou without handseals. BTW, I'm still waiting why do you think Tobirama would stab her brain when he has no reason to do it.
 

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1. Lets not continue this. We both know Asuma is not just twice as weak as Ay.
2. *cough* Senju DNA *cough *
3. If a stab in the heart didn't killed her, a stab in the brain won't kill her either, considering she can activate the Byakugou without handseals. BTW, I'm still waiting why do you think Tobirama would stab her brain when he has no reason to do it.
this is true since A can speedblitz everyone except the So6P and Juubito while Asuma cannot

being a Senju doesn't automatically makes you a chakra-beast
because if he sees how slashing her heart isn't killing her he will know Tsunade is very durable/has regeneration (unless he's stupid but I don't think he is) so he will attack her head
 

grizzlyshree

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this is true since A can speedblitz everyone except the So6P and Juubito while Asuma cannot

being a Senju doesn't automatically makes you a chakra-beast
because if he sees how slashing her heart isn't killing her he will know Tsunade is very durable/has regeneration (unless he's stupid but I don't think he is) so he will attack her head

but A cannot speed blitz Minato right? u missed Minato.

being a senju will make u a beast when compared to uchihas or other clans. Tobirama being a pure senju will have more chakra than Tsunade.

Hiraishingiri finishes her. an attack to the forehead(even in byakogou mode) takes time to heal and by that time Tobirama can just slit off her head ending her life,
 
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