Canon doesnt disagree with me, its canon that itachi has the ability to revert the genjutsu casted on him back at the user, claiming its not a possibility that he cant do the same against kabuto is blasphemy, necromancer also made a valid point about showing itachi and sasuke working together which may be a reason as to why itachi figured it be best that they both use there sharigan to escape the sound genjutsu
Yet in canon, he sought his brother's help. So no, your point isn't backed by the manga.
That same point gives rise to Sasuke purposefully falling prey to the Hakugeki so that Itachi could save him. It's complete opinion. People could simply try and discredit obvious flaws in different characters' abilities by simply putting them down to 'literary motives'. Pointless. The brothers sought eachother's help because...they needed eachother's help.
I see your point but at the same time the feint clone and clearly give itachi a considerable amount of time to escape the radius of the sound genjutsu? its not canon but im sure theres a limit to which the sound genjutsu can travel it would idiotic to think there isnt.
Madara was talking to the Gokage from atop the Perfect Susano'o. That wasn't even a Jutsu; that was his voice. Itachi escaping the technique's AoE is unreasonable.
as shown with dealing with nagatos CT itachi always calmly analyzes his situation so it wouldnt surprise me if he managed to figure out a trick to the flute genjutsu not too mention theres always a chance to brake the flute it self.
But there's no substance to this statement. It's just...a guess. Breaking the flute? A stretch, to say the least.
We dont even know when he got the disease, sasuke having a ems a superior dojutsu to itachis MS doesnt hold weight, theres also something called experience.
But this is just how he was. We don't know when he acquired the spirit weapons either. Taking Itachi from the earliest of points means you may be taking him before he came into contact with the Totsuka-no-Tsurugi or the Yata no Kagami, which, of course, weakens his arsenal.
Possessing an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan allows Sasuke to use MS based techniques more freely and without strain. It has nothing to do with experience.
As for the "smoke and mirror" plan, itachi was able to use the same plan to cut kabuto's horn off, despite his senses. If it weren't for plot, itachi could have taken his head instead. The same circumstances would certainly work with the totsuka blade.
it's canon that hte only reason itachi got that horn was because kabuto was not used to having them on his head. ie he avoided the blade meant for his head, but miscalculated his horn.
even if say itachi can use a bunshin and susanoo at the same time (highly unlikely given that his 30% clone was unable to use ms), will that in any way affect kabuto's senses? senses capable of evading a point blank susanoo arrow? if totsuka sword was faster, why did itachi have to removed all of nagato's eyes and use smoke as a disguise? he wasnt even able to move.
No i did not forget that the fight was 2 vs 1 but you fail to realize it was mostly itachis actions and feats that put kabuto in risky situations.
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Orochimaru admits to be inferior to itachi which obviously means they fought a considerable amount of times, this concludes that itachi already had info kabutos&orochimaru snakes since kabuto is basically a imitation of orochimaru.
Itachi had knowledge on orochimarus snake technique
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If anything itachi would had figured out what itachi had said during the fight.
Your combo examples hold little value in this considering the fact that both sides werent fighting seriously which means sasuke being there had little relevance when itachi himself wasnt even going all out.
link me where it shows sasuke having knowledge on a edos body having no chakra strain? if anything he asked if itachi can still use sussano out of curiosity.
Actually itachi can use sussano ( living itachi) for quite a considerable amount of time if he uses his chakra wisely.
No i did not forget that the fight was 2 vs 1 but you fail to realize it was mostly itachis actions and feats that put kabuto in risky situations.
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Orochimaru admits to be inferior to itachi which obviously means they fought a considerable amount of times, this concludes that itachi already had info kabutos&orochimaru snakes since kabuto is basically a imitation of orochimaru.
Itachi had knowledge on orochimarus snake technique
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If anything itachi would had figured out what itachi had said during the fight.
Your combo examples hold little value in this considering the fact that both sides werent fighting seriously which means sasuke being there had little relevance when itachi himself wasnt even going all out.
link me where it shows sasuke having knowledge on a edos body having no chakra strain? if anything he asked if itachi can still use sussano out of curiosity.
Actually itachi can use sussano ( living itachi) for quite a considerable amount of time if he uses his chakra wisely.
i disgaree with them fightning considerable times. orochiamru, had a lot of intel throughout the series, 1 maybe 2 confrontations and knowledge on his feaths Ms and personally witnessing them is enough
Well i didn't want to get involve in the thread that much since i have something to do currently, but i'll just leave this U_U
Prince Charles, like Baka sennin said, you're really selective in your thread and forget completely important things that happened during that fight. You forget it was a 2vs1(being a 2vs1, he obviously has to pay even more attention to both opponents at the same time or almost), and that Sasuke greatly helped Itachi in important moments during that fight
I'll just try to give some examples, some things you didn't bother talk about. It's true that a Kabuto who was fighting with no knowledge on an asspull jutsu like Izanami was more in danger than he originally thought. Probably if he knew about izanami he would have fought differently, but whatever...
On the contrary, Itachi really had the chance to have Sasuke by his side who had great knowledge on Kabuto's capacities having been
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Sasuke's knowledge:
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It helped them to counter effectively sound four attacks
Combo-attacks
They were using combo-attacks
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For example, Itachi magatamas
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, when Sasuke arrows
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That gave him the opportunity to fool and
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As stated, it was a 2vs1 configuration. He is not fighting Itachi alone here. Sasuke is there too. It's for that reason that Itachi can have such liberty of movements to prepare his counter-attack(with clones or whatever you mentioned in your OP)
Sasuke's help
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He needed Sasuke to get out of the genjutsu
Sasuke also helped him here
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Sasuke who helped him again on the above panel
After helping him, Kabuto had to take care of Sasuke who was attacking him
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When Kabuto fights Sasuke, what do you think Itachi can do? Obviously, it could give him opportunities to prepare to capture the second image of his izanami and thus completing the loop
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Sasuke has sharingan, and notice that he was wondering if Itachi could still use Susanoo despite his edo-tensei body where his chakra never runs out
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And you think living Itachi could have kept up Susanoo that much if even in Edo tensei where his chakra never runs out his brother worries about it? Maybe he couldn't even have use Susanoo for 4minutes before running out in stamina. Edo Itachi had a lot of advantage that you failed to notice here
Yet in canon, he sought his brother's help. So no, your point isn't backed by the manga.
That same point gives rise to Sasuke purposefully falling prey to the Hakugeki so that Itachi could save him. It's complete opinion. People could simply try and discredit obvious flaws in different characters' abilities by simply putting them down to 'literary motives'. Pointless. The brothers sought eachother's help because...they needed eachother's help.
Madara was talking to the Gokage from atop the Perfect Susano'o. That wasn't even a Jutsu; that was his voice. Itachi escaping the technique's AoE is unreasonable.
But there's no substance to this statement. It's just...a guess. Breaking the flute? A stretch, to say the least.
But this is just how he was. We don't know when he acquired the spirit weapons either. Taking Itachi from the earliest of points means you may be taking him before he came into contact with the Totsuka-no-Tsurugi or the Yata no Kagami, which, of course, weakens his arsenal.
Possessing an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan allows Sasuke to use MS based techniques more freely and without strain. It has nothing to do with experience.
Both kurenai and sound 4 flute genjutsu are b rank genjutsu techniques, it only seems logically that since itachi broke kurenai's genjutsu i see no reason why he cant brake a same b rank genjutsu from kabuto.
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Shikamaru was even able to brake out of it by braking his thumb ..:|
Look at the foundation between both genjutsu's the flute genjutsu halfs the victims movement and restrains them
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same thing happend to itachi he was restrained and movement stopped yet he reverted the jutsu back on kurenai
both are b rank genjutsu i see no reason why itachi cant do the same to kabutos flute genjutsu. kabutos version seems to be stronger a tad bit but still.. you see my point?
You haven't done a very good job on clearing this "Misconception".
All you've done is post itachi's feats. You've failed to provide kabuto's side of the arguement or how itachi counters jutsu's such as White rage/Sound genjutsu/muki tensei/sound 5's techs and so on.
at the moment sound Genjutsu alone should be enough to end the fight, Currently it's mere speculation he could break it on his own since instead causing himself pain (far more effect and better for chakra for sasuke atleast). He chose to override the genjutsu with another genjutsu.
You haven't done a very good job on clearing this "Misconception".
All you've done is post itachi's feats. You've failed to provide kabuto's side of the arguement or how itachi counters jutsu's such as White rage/Sound genjutsu/muki tensei/sound 5's techs and so on.
at the moment sound Genjutsu alone should be enough to end the fight, Currently it's mere speculation he could break it on his own since instead causing himself pain (far more effect and better for chakra for sasuke atleast). He chose to override the genjutsu with another genjutsu.
guess you havent been reading my posts nor the whole thread.
we argued about white rage already.
sound genjutsu as i said he can probably revert it back
muki tensei? you mean when kabuto brings earth to life and what not? i already provided a scan with itachi reacting to muki tensei but decided to protect sasuke instead, he could had easily evaded muki tensei or simply used a feint clone.
as for the other sound 5 techs ill post some scans for a counter for them in a bit so dont worry.
Kurenai's genjutsu wasn't amplified by Sennin Mode. Furthermore, a Jutsu's rank doesn't reflect it's strength or power; rather, how easily or how readily it can be performed. Mugen Onsa being categorized as a 'B-list' technique does not mean it holds some universal 'B-level' strength. Two B rank illusions or two B rank Suitons can have different strengths; it is only their complexity which the rank describes. This isn't factoring in Kabuto's DSM, either. Itachi being able to reverse a Sage-enhanced genjutsu is only an assumption, nothing more.
Both kurenai and sound 4 flute genjutsu are b rank genjutsu techniques, it only seems logically that since itachi broke kurenai's genjutsu i see no reason why he cant brake a same b rank genjutsu from kabuto.
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Shikamaru was even able to brake out of it by braking his thumb ..:|
Look at the foundation between both genjutsu's the flute genjutsu halfs the victims movement and restrains them
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same thing happend to itachi he was restrained and movement stopped yet he reverted the jutsu back on kurenai
both are b rank genjutsu i see no reason why itachi cant do the same to kabutos flute genjutsu. kabutos version seems to be stronger a tad bit but still.. you see my point?
Except this genjutsu doesnt prevent from using doujutsu. Kabuto can have amaterasu coming his way pretty fast. Not to mention shikamaru could maintain his shadow jutsu and manipulate it. Itachi could easily bring up susanoo.
Kurenai's genjutsu wasn't amplified by Sennin Mode. Furthermore, a Jutsu's rank doesn't reflect it's strength or power; rather, how easily or how readily it can be performed. Mugen Onsa being categorized as a 'B-list' technique does not mean it holds some universal 'B-level' strength. Two B rank illusions or two B rank Suitons can have different strengths; it is only their complexity which the rank describes. This isn't factoring in Kabuto's DSM, either. Itachi being able to reverse a Sage-enhanced genjutsu is only an assumption, nothing more.
hence why i said the flute genjutsu is stronger due to sennin mode, i provided how they have the same basic foundations behind each other they are basically the same, there is hardly any complexity difference.. only thing that is different is the setting of the genjutsu
Except this genjutsu doesnt prevent from using doujutsu. Kabuto can have amaterasu coming his way pretty fast. Not to mention shikamaru could maintain his shadow jutsu and manipulate it. Itachi could easily bring up susanoo.
hence why i said the flute genjutsu is stronger due to sennin mode, i provided how they have the same basic foundations behind each other they are basically the same, there is hardly any complexity difference.. only thing that is different is the setting of the genjutsu
You mentioning their rank implied that you believed they were somewhat comparable or of the 'same level'. It doesn't matter about how skillful one needs to be in order to employ them. In fact, Itachi's feat of reversing Kurenai's technique is totally irrelevant when his performance against Kabuto's is discussed. It's the strength of the two that matters (with regards to being able to drive them away). And this difference in strength was highlighted by how easily Itachi dispelled them. One took no effort whatsoever. Whilst the other encouraged him to seek outside help.
You mentioning their rank implied that you believed they were somewhat comparable or of the 'same level'. It doesn't matter about how skillful one needs to be in order to employ them. In fact, Itachi's feat of reversing Kurenai's technique is totally irrelevant when his performance against Kabuto's is discussed. It's the strength of the two that matters (with regards to being able to drive them away). And this difference in strength was highlighted by how easily Itachi dispelled them. One took no effort whatsoever. Whilst the other encouraged him to seek outside help.
We should also acknowledge the fact that even though there bodies were restrained and couldnt move like dsm kabuto said
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Take note that itachi was still able to perform tysukuyomi even though his movements were binded and he was restrained which means he could still use his MS jutsu which also means he could had also activated sussano.Thats the flaw of the flute genjutsu. Also had it ever occured to you that maybe itachi was capable of braking out of it but sasuke wasnt so itachi knowing this he decided to take a different route getting both himself and sasuke out of it safely.
We should also acknowledge the fact that even though there bodies were restrained and couldnt move like dsm kabuto said
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Take note that itachi was still able to perform tysukuyomi even though his movements were binded and he was restrained which means he could still use his MS jutsu which also means he could had also activated sussano.Thats the flaw of the flute genjutsu. Also had it ever occured to you that maybe itachi was capable of braking out of it but sasuke wasnt so itachi knowing this he decided to take a different route getting both himself and sasuke out of it safely.
We should also acknowledge the fact that even though there bodies were restrained and couldnt move like dsm kabuto said
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Take note that itachi was still able to perform tysukuyomi even though his movements were binded and he was restrained which means he could still use his MS jutsu which also means he could had also activated sussano.Thats the flaw of the flute genjutsu. Also had it ever occured to you that maybe itachi was capable of braking out of it but sasuke wasnt so itachi knowing this he decided to take a different route getting both himself and sasuke out of it safely.
When he was caught in the Genjutsu for what ever reason susanoo deactivated, Be it because of a disturbance in the users chakra, Or sasuke/itachi let it down for the hell of it.
Even if this was the case and he could maintain susanoo while under genjutsu it would be a massive waste of chakra (if he was alive). Unless itachi it going to attack himself with susanoo i don't see the use of it while he is under the genjutsu. Kabuto can quite easily set up webs to stop him/susanoo moving after the genjutsu is over. Or stop susanoo of attacking itachi during the genjutsu.
His body was restrained so he wasn't in a position where moving or casting techniques (towards Kabuto) were options. The brothers were in close proximity of eachother, so their tactic was feasible. The discussion wasn't about whether he can use techniques, because that much was obvious (he used Tsukuyomi). It was about whether he was able to escape the binding by himself, which he didn't do canonically.
Again, this isn't supported by the manga. Sasuke, and I quote the databook here, defeated Itachi's Tsukuyomi with 'masterful use of the Sharingan'. You are now suggesting, oddly, that despite possessing his brother's eyes (and subsequently, an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan) and chakra dark and powerful enough to elicit memories of Uchiha Madara himself, Sasuke was the only one unable to escape the illusion. This also despite the fact that the manga clearly shows how the brothers went about freeing themselves - entering eachother's illusion and cutting the binding manually. It didn't even have anything to do with level of genjutsu ability, as Sasuke accomplished the same feat as Itachi with just a 'Sharingan Genjutsu'. All they needed to do was enter eachother's minds.
