This right here, it was said hashirama was able to subdue the tailed beats but I do not remember it being said anywhere in the manga that Hashirama could control/use the tail beats.
Please show me where is waid hashi had perfect control over the bijuu? As far as we've seen he only has the power to put them to sleep, he has never controlled a bijuu in his life....
He can put them to sleep & keep them asleep, then hand them over to wherever he wants. Just because he can suppress them doesnt mean that he can control the bijuu like madara.
Read above. Hashirama is put in the same category as Bee and Yagura, perfect jinchuuriki, and Madara, who could control Kurama whilst fighting Hashirama (which is a feat in and of itself).
He can put them to sleep & keep them asleep, then hand them over to wherever he wants. Just because he can suppress them doesnt mean that he can control the bijuu like madara.
This is hashi's version of controlling a bijuu via mokuton
You must be registered for see images
He uses his mokuton to put them to sleep, nothing more
Still it's pretty impressive since Hashirama was in possession of all 9 bijuus at one point.To be able to subdue them all and hand them to the villiages isn't something anyone could do.
There was another reference that contained Hashirama, Killer B, and Yagura as a list of those who could perfectly control tailed beasts, but I forgot exactly where. I thought it was in the summit arc.
I remember that scene now. But we've seen the way Hashirama's Mokuton works on Bijuus. Orochimaru and maybe Mifune (?) said he can perfectly control them but we've never seen Mokuton control any Bijuu, just subdue, weaken, and restrain them. I think this is what Mifune meant by being able to control a Bijuu but te better word is restrain. Orochimaru most likely meant the same IMO, because we know as readers that Mokuton can't force a Bijuu to do something but rather restrain them from doing something.
Control = suppress, he can put them to sleep, he cannot use the power of a bijuu. Hashi has shown us how he uses his mokuton against tailed beasts, why didnt he turn kurama on madara? He would've wont right then & there....If he had full control of kurama then why the need to put him to sleep??
Read above. Hashirama is put in the same category as Bee and Yagura, perfect jinchuuriki, and Madara, who could control Kurama whilst fighting Hashirama (which is a feat in and of itself).
So? feats > hype in this situation, hashi showed us how he controls the bijuu. What people say is irrelevant at this point because we've seen with out own eyes the events of hashi vs kurama/madara. Would you put hashi in the same category as a perfect jinchuuriki based on what we've seen from his fight with madara?
Control = suppress, he can put them to sleep, he cannot use the power of a bijuu. Hashi has shown us how he uses his mokuton against tailed beasts, why didnt he turn kurama on madara? He would've wont right then & there....If he had full control of kurama then why the need to put him to sleep??
And who are you to say that, Kishimoto? Then explain Madara and Obito linking the Juubi to them through mokuton, and controlling it (to an extent, because even the imperfect Juubi is much more powerful than a normal biju and their mokuton is not on par with Sage Mode Hashirama's). Hashirama already said during the fight that he didn't want to kill Madara, but as soon as he put his personal feelings aside for the sake of the village, Madara was struck down.
So? feats > hype in this situation, hashi showed us how he controls the bijuu. What people say is irrelevant at this point because we've seen with out own eyes the events of hashi vs kurama/madara. Would you put hashi in the same category as a perfect jinchuuriki based on what we've seen from his fight with madara?
Its common sense based on what we've seen during their fight.
Then explain Madara and Obito linking the Juubi to them through mokuton, and controlling it (to an extent, because even the imperfect Juubi is much more powerful than a normal biju and their mokuton is not on par with Sage Mode Hashirama's).
1) The juubi is made out of the same material that madara/obito are using to control it. None of the bijuu are made up of that same substance so how can hashi control any bijuu through the same means? It was shown that his mokuton has the power to put kurama to sleep, thats called suppressing.
2) You need the rinnegan & senju dna in order to control the juubi, & even then they cant fully control it & its not because their mokuton is weaker than hashi's, its because they arent jinchuuriki....
You must be registered for see images
Hashirama already said during the fight that he didn't want to kill Madara, but as soon as he put his personal feelings aside for the sake of the village, Madara was struck down.
No, go rewatch hashi vs madara, hashi tries talking to madara but right before he goes in to SM he realizes that madara cant be reasoned with. Hashi responds with a "very well" & proceeds to go full power. These are clear signs that hashi was willing to kill madara at that point. So I ask again, why didnt hashi gain control of kurama, even if he didnt want to kill madara, kurama can be used as intimidation too.
No, he showed us how he suppresses them. We were never shown how he controlled them. If the manga says he can control them, why go against it?
The manga never differentiates between suppressing & controlling. They are one & the same thing, so if someone is referring to controlling then they are referring to suppressing.
Its common sense based on what we've seen during their fight.
1) The juubi is made out of the same material that madara/obito are using to control it. None of the bijuu are made up of that same substance so how can hashi control any bijuu through the same means? It was shown that his mokuton has the power to put kurama to sleep, thats called suppressing.
2) You need the rinnegan & senju dna in order to control the juubi, & even then they cant fully control it & its not because their mokuton is weaker than hashi's, its because they arent jinchuuriki....
You must be registered for see images
No, go rewatch hashi vs madara, hashi tries talking to madara but right before he goes in to SM he realizes that madara cant be reasoned with. Hashi responds with a "very well" & proceeds to go full power. These are clear signs that hashi was willing to kill madara at that point. So I ask again, why didnt hashi gain control of kurama, even if he didnt want to kill madara, kurama can be used as intimidation too.
The manga never differentiates between suppressing & controlling. They are one & the same thing, so if someone is referring to controlling then they are referring to suppressing.
Hashirama was'nt willing to deliver the killing blow until after their fight which is why his expression changed when he stabbed Madara in the back.The main threat was Kurama so he wanted to subdue it first and take it out of play so that Madara could be dealt with.
Its common sense based on what we've seen during their fight.
1) The juubi is made out of the same material that madara/obito are using to control it. None of the bijuu are made up of that same substance so how can hashi control any bijuu through the same means? It was shown that his mokuton has the power to put kurama to sleep, thats called suppressing.
2) You need the rinnegan & senju dna in order to control the juubi, & even then they cant fully control it & its not because their mokuton is weaker than hashi's, its because they arent jinchuuriki....
You must be registered for see images
No, go rewatch hashi vs madara, hashi tries talking to madara but right before he goes in to SM he realizes that madara cant be reasoned with. Hashi responds with a "very well" & proceeds to go full power. These are clear signs that hashi was willing to kill madara at that point. So I ask again, why didnt hashi gain control of kurama, even if he didnt want to kill madara, kurama can be used as intimidation too.
The manga never differentiates between suppressing & controlling. They are one & the same thing, so if someone is referring to controlling then they are referring to suppressing.
Hashirama was'nt willing to deliver the killing blow until after their fight which is why his expression changed when he stabbed Madara in the back.The main threat was Kurama so he wanted to subdue it first and take it out of play so that Madara could be dealt with.
Hashirama was'nt willing to deliver the killing blow until after their fight which is why his expression changed when he stabbed Madara in the back.The main threat was Kurama so he wanted to subdue it first and take it out of play so that Madara could be dealt with.
Either way, kurama is nothing but beneficial in that situation. Whether hashi wanted to kill madara or not doesnt change the fact that hashi didnt use kurama to his advantage, but instead put it to sleep.
We've seen yamato use mokuton on naruto multiple times, its said that he can control jinchuuriki but does he control naruto? No he suppresses him, theres a difference in what that means for us, & what it means for the characters in the manga.
Then why did they need to use mokuton to help them control the Juubi? Madara even told Obito to use Hashirama's cells to do so; if mokuton was used to suppress the Juubi rather than control it, then Obito and Madara would not have been able to use the Juubi to attack the Alliance.
You need the rinnegan & senju dna in order to control the juubi, & even then they cant fully control it & its not because their mokuton is weaker than hashi's, its because they arent jinchuuriki....
Kurama was already under Madara's control, and it was detrimental to Madara's chakra reserves because Kurama wasn't helping him against Hashirama at all.
The manga never differentiates between suppressing & controlling. They are one & the same thing, so if someone is referring to controlling then they are referring to suppressing.
Controlling Kurama is a drain on one's chakra reserves. Minato even explains that Obito was in a rush because he wouldn't be able to control Kurama for very long, due to how heavy the chakra drain is:
It was stated multiple times that hashi can control the bijuu, he's never been said to "suppress" the bijuu. I was expecting hashi to fully control kurama in that fight.
Then why did they need to use mokuton to help them control the Juubi?
Madara even told Obito to use Hashirama's cells to do so; if mokuton was used to suppress the Juubi rather than control it, then Obito and Madara would not have been able to use the Juubi to attack the Alliance.
Lol wow.....I never said that they cant use hashi's dna to help control the juubi...........................I said that they cant fully control it unless they're jinchuuriki, it came straight from the horses mouth what more do you want U_U.
I also said that none of the bijuu are made out of that mokuton-like substance, therefore its impossible for hashi to plug into them the same way that obito/madara did the juubi.
Then why did Madara tell Obito to use Hashirama's cells to help keep the Juubi under their control, after it was getting more difficult to control it?
Because senju dna helps with controlling its power. They still cant control it with senju dna alone, in fact we have no idea what effect normal senju dna has on the juubi because both of the hosts have the power of the sage. You cant say that mokuton plays a part in controlling the juubi, the mokuton can simply be transferring the power of obito/madara (uchiha/senju dna) through the juubi.
Kurama was already under Madara's control, and it was detrimental to Madara's chakra reserves because Kurama wasn't helping him against Hashirama at all.
So? Why is kurama off limits just because madara was in control? Because kurama would still be helping madara? It takes up chakra to keep kurama under control, & once shinsuusenju took him out of PS then madara couldnt use it anymore. It was restrained by multiple mokuton hands, madara getting it back is wishful thinking so why waste shakra keeping it under control??
So I guess Madara, Yagura, and Bee just suppressed the biju? Because they were said to control the biju :|
Oh my god are you daft?? I already said that statements mean nothing when you have the feats instead. Do any of the kage summit members know how effectively madara controlled kurama?? They have no idea & they're going based off of stories. Kishi gave us the firsthand experience of hashi vs madara, & he was kind enough to show us madara's binding power compared to hashi's. The statements made previously are just what people have heard, nobody witnessed how madara controlled kurama...
Hashi's control is suppression. He suppresses kurama's hostility, so he can control it to a point. He's never been stated to use the power of a bijuu, which implies that he has access to its powers.
It was stated multiple times that hashi can control the bijuu, he's never been said to "suppress" the bijuu. I was expecting hashi to fully control kurama in that fight.
The reason Hahirama didn't control Kurama is because of the susanoo armor. At least, that's what's indicated.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
By the time susanoo was destroyed, Hashirama was exhausted. He probably didn't have enough chakra to do any more wood style to control Kurama and instead suppressed him.
You must be registered for see images
Notice how he's panting? Take a look at the next panel.
You must be registered for see images
Either this, or he's the only one in the list of people who had "perfect control" over tailed beasts that could only supress.
