Hinata: What makes her a Mary Sue

[Momo86]

You are man of truth...
This is a flaw, the fact that she is only being revolved around Naruto is a flaw itself, I do not want to be stereotypical but she is being considered as "perfect" because she only revolving around the guy he loves and her shyness and boobs found appealing by some.

I strongly disagree. In fact, these are not much better built than the pitiful reasoning most people bring against Sakura. Jut a little attention and this gets disproven easily.

 

[Fodder#4]

All Female sucks & except Konan & she got trolled by Kishi

Hey! Anko and Tayuya are amazing! Don' even dis' 'em!

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

Hinata is awesome
her character is way better than Sakura's
even Kishi stated it in an interview
deal with it

 

[Optimistic]

Hinata is awesome
her character is way better than Sakura's
even Kishi stated it in an interview
deal with it

They both suck how about that?

 

[Totsuka gg Amaterasu gg]

They both suck how about that?

not being OP doesn't make a character s*cky
without Hinata Naruto would have been captured... manga fact

 

[Honord Sage]

Now what would you call Sakura,Ino,Temari, and Tenten? Sines all females just like the Males have flaws and quirks in their characters to a degree or other.

 

[Aim64C]

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Spoiler

Mary Sue/Gary Stu-
a type of character that has no self flaws.

For a time now I realize Hinata is a Mary Sue. I'm not doing this to bash but the reason everyone likes her is because they KNOW she's perfect and they admit it. So I'll prove some points to why.

Neg.

Learn what a Mary Sue is:

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A Mary Sue represents the idealized expression of the Author. In Fan-Fiction, these are often expressed by "OCs" that have a god-like perspective of the universe and are, for all intents and purposes, gods within the plot. They will essentially never fail. They will almost always be correct. And, generally speaking, they are destructive to a readers' enjoyment and experience.

Itachi is a Mary Sue in the Naruto universe.

Naruto, himself, could be called a Mary Sue, as well.

Regardless from being removed the next Head of the Hyuga, Hinata is still apart of a good family and a powerful clan

She's been removed from the head of the Hyuuga Clan's line of succession? Please point to the manga page where this is stated.

I'll save you some time - and tell you that you will not find it, as it was never stated. It has merely been suppositions from the fan community.

Hinata was only shy around Naruto

And, you know, her family. And everyone else. Do you want me to start getting out manga pages?

Although lost fights we've seen her in, she is still able to fight

Naruto had a chidori put through his chest. Kakashi was -dead-. Neji was defeated. Lee was TOLD HE WOULD NEVER FIGHT AS A NINJA AGAIN.

Your point is?

Naruto's overall storyline has people suffering injuries that would put us in wheelchairs, leave us with conditions that make us have the hospital on speed-dial, and all other manner of life-changing injuries... yet they are back for the next chapter.

Hinata doesn't break the trend established by the rest of the characters in the plot. Though Kishimoto could give us a little more lasting consequence (aside from death) in battles. Having well-loved and respected characters reduced to being mere advisors after injury in a very close battle would allow loved characters to be kept while still preserving suspension that something is at stake in every battle.

She doesn't need to be loved back by Naruto.

I think that's a failure of our perspective. Hinata knows that Naruto is exceptionally dense and has some other deep-seated problems involving his own self-esteem (such as her own). She doesn't need Naruto to return romance to her, instantly. And she doesn't expect him to suddenly start pining after her.

Depending upon how much longer the Naruto plot continues - we will probably see a bit more possessiveness on her part (and possibly on his).

Not physically affected by the injuries Neji did in Pt1. If it were like this then Hinata would have a flaw

THERE are more I know but these are just the top 5 I picked. Do you agree or disagree? Please post!

No, there aren't more, or you wouldn't have recycled your third point as your fifth point.

Not that these points really contribute anything toward establishing that she's a Mary Sue.

If you wanted to argue that - I would go with the early Naruto sketches (the demos to the publishers) that show Hinata standing before a hill with Naruto in the background and run with the points in my "Taoist Legacy" thread that shows Hinata was always intended to be at Naruto's side as part of a Yin-Yang relationship. This is why she is always present at critical times in Naruto's character struggles.

Though I wouldn't argue that makes her a Mary Sue.

 

[Aim64C]

Hinata is just as bad as Sakura. Thinking about Naruto's "big manly hand" just moments after her brother'd died?
Okay....

She was saying that him holding her hand made her feel safe and secure. They are facing down the creature responsible for creating the world and reducing entire regions to craters with but a whim; but Naruto holding her hand made her feel more confident in being able to survive.

Perhaps you tweens should pull your head out of your ass and realize that not every mention of a hand carries a sexual connotation.

You are man of truth...
This is a flaw, the fact that she is only being revolved around Naruto is a flaw itself, I do not want to be stereotypical but she is being considered as "perfect" because she only revolving around the guy he loves and her shyness and boobs found appealing by some.
Minato is a downright Stu though.

To be fair - Naruto's character revolves around her just as much.

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There are plenty of allusions to Hinata's activity outside of Naruto's context within the series. Hiashi and Hizashi's conversation alludes to massive shifts within the Hyuuga traditions and structure - changes that could only have been brought about by a better relationship between Neji and Hinata - which had to be largely facilitated by Hinata.

Since we only see Hinata around Naruto - we only get the context that she revolves entirely around Naruto. Even so - it would stand to reason that Yin draw inspiration from Yang in accomplishing her goals (as Yin requires Yang - just as Yang requires Yin).

 

[Silverforsakenhamster]

not being OP doesn't make a character s*cky
without Hinata Naruto would have been captured... manga fact

Hinata wasted her breath in that part.

 

[Silverforsakenhamster]

Neg.

Learn what a Mary Sue is:

You must be registered for see links

A Mary Sue represents the idealized expression of the Author. In Fan-Fiction, these are often expressed by "OCs" that have a god-like perspective of the universe and are, for all intents and purposes, gods within the plot. They will essentially never fail. They will almost always be correct. And, generally speaking, they are destructive to a readers' enjoyment and experience.

Itachi is a Mary Sue in the Naruto universe.

Naruto, himself, could be called a Mary Sue, as well.




She's been removed from the head of the Hyuuga Clan's line of succession? Please point to the manga page where this is stated.

I'll save you some time - and tell you that you will not find it, as it was never stated. It has merely been suppositions from the fan community.



And, you know, her family. And everyone else. Do you want me to start getting out manga pages?



Naruto had a chidori put through his chest. Kakashi was -dead-. Neji was defeated. Lee was TOLD HE WOULD NEVER FIGHT AS A NINJA AGAIN.

Your point is?

Naruto's overall storyline has people suffering injuries that would put us in wheelchairs, leave us with conditions that make us have the hospital on speed-dial, and all other manner of life-changing injuries... yet they are back for the next chapter.

Hinata doesn't break the trend established by the rest of the characters in the plot. Though Kishimoto could give us a little more lasting consequence (aside from death) in battles. Having well-loved and respected characters reduced to being mere advisors after injury in a very close battle would allow loved characters to be kept while still preserving suspension that something is at stake in every battle.



I think that's a failure of our perspective. Hinata knows that Naruto is exceptionally dense and has some other deep-seated problems involving his own self-esteem (such as her own). She doesn't need Naruto to return romance to her, instantly. And she doesn't expect him to suddenly start pining after her.

Depending upon how much longer the Naruto plot continues - we will probably see a bit more possessiveness on her part (and possibly on his).



No, there aren't more, or you wouldn't have recycled your third point as your fifth point.

Not that these points really contribute anything toward establishing that she's a Mary Sue.

If you wanted to argue that - I would go with the early Naruto sketches (the demos to the publishers) that show Hinata standing before a hill with Naruto in the background and run with the points in my "Taoist Legacy" thread that shows Hinata was always intended to be at Naruto's side as part of a Yin-Yang relationship. This is why she is always present at critical times in Naruto's character struggles.

Though I wouldn't argue that makes her a Mary Sue.

Who goes on wikipedia these days? Yor making her look more Mary sueish. and ps call the guys gary stus. But go look up how not to make a mary sue. Because there is more than just the author's point of themselves. I acknowledge your points though!

 

[Aim64C]

Who goes on wikipedia these days?

People who care for more than one perspective.

Yor making her look more Mary sueish.

Naruto is full of them. That's why the series is generally quite boring, anymore. No one watches it for the suspense, anymore - they watch it for two reasons... because it has explosions, and because they've already invested far too much time of their life to leave the story hanging at where they last recall.

and ps call the guys gary stus.

A rose by any other name...

But go look up how not to make a mary sue. Because there is more than just the author's point of themselves.

Most authors don't even know what a Mary Sue is.

Not all characters that meet the definition of a "Mary Sue" are what I would refer to as 'true' Mary Sues. For example - take the Kyuubi and ... I forget what his name is... in "Destiny is a Hazy Thing" -

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.

Inserting an 'alien god' into the Narutoverse is, by no stretch of the imagination, creating a Mary Sue. However - that 'god' is only able to influence the universe we actually care about via proxy. That creates its own set of conflict as you have the independent wills and skills of 'arbiters.'

The story still manages to build suspense in a wide variety of ways and manages to contain the influence of its Mary Sues quite well. Though the power scales have had to climb considerably because of the nature of the plot's impetus. It's not a perfect story - but it manages to do the job, despite having influences that would destroy the appeal of most.

I acknowledge your points though!

I appreciate that, I suppose.

 

[Momo86]

Itachi was coercitive, manipulative, arrogant and prone to lie (Source: Itachi Uchiha) so I'd rule him out as a Mary Sue. Naruto is pretty stupid for everything that isn't related to combat, another one I'd rule out as a Mary Sue. Hinata is passive, easily abusable, dumb, and she's not an exceptionally talented fighter by the standards of the series.

Seriously, Minato is the one and only Mary Sue, that said even him has dark sides, he sealed a demon into his son which many would consider a controversial action.

 

[Aim64C]

Itachi was coercitive, manipulative, arrogant and prone to lie (Source: Itachi Uchiha) so I'd rule him out as a Mary Sue.

What are you talking about?

"Itachi" can be used in the series as a sort of 'it's in God's Hands, don't worry.' The dude makes absolutely no mistakes. Even events that could be construed as a mistake (getting edoed by Kabuto) turn out to be incomprehensibly ingenious planning.

"Oh Christ! Kabuto is summoning history's legends back from the dead to fight for the Akatsuki!"

"Itachi, guys. Itachi."

"Yeah... you're right. It's going to be okay. Itachi."

Naruto is pretty stupid for everything that isn't related to combat, another one I'd rule out as a Mary Sue.

Yet he was the one who realized what the Raikage's weakness was. Of all the other capable people around - Naruto was the fool who realized. He's also not that bright - but he mastered Sage Mode, learned the Rasengan, and even developed the Wind Release version of the Rasengan in about a week where the genius Minato spent years.

The fact that people are already suggesting that he's going to "talk-no-jutsu" Obito and/or Madara into reviving all the people who died in the war is evidence of just how much consequence his character erases - how much he destroys suspense.

Hinata is passive, easily abusable, dumb, and she's not an exceptionally talented fighter by the standards of the series.

We, honestly, haven't seen much of Hinata. The only time we've seen her really fight an opponent that was even remotely fair was Neji, back when she was just beginning to overcome her weaknesses. We've, also, never seen any indication that she is dumb.

But you're right in ruling her out as a Mary Sue. She doesn't destroy consequence or suspense in the plot simply by being present.

Seriously, Minato is the one and only Mary Sue, that said even him has dark sides, he sealed a demon into his son which many would consider a controversial action.

That's not what makes a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue - in its original context - is a character that is tantamount to God or the Author. They are the Author's chosen Arbiter(s) and will prevail in every challenge with few flaws to their strategy. Their character routinely 'jumps the shark' or 'nukes the fridge' to the point where you no longer fear for the life and well-being of the character (or those around them).

How that got construed to this... stupid definition of "a character without flaws" is beyond me. Unless it's meant to be invoked in stories that attempt to turn things into Highschool Musical depictions of the world.

 

[Momo86]

1. Itachi's description of his multiple failures in both convincing his clan (which was a good cause) and manipulate his brothers' mind (which was a downright wrong cause) are much more honest than most people in this forum are about him. The amount of things Itachi did to Sasuke under the arrogant assumption that he could see how his brother would finally grow up are almost psychopatic. Only when he openly admits he failed and his attempts to manipulate Sasuke were wrongdoings Sasuke finally started reconsidering his ways and searching a new path for himself. Itachi is pretty objective in judging his life and the evil he committed, only here on Narutobase he is hailed as a hero with no personal flaws.

You seem to be confusing "no flaws" with "amazing competence and strenght". While I am willing to admit that Itachi is too much competent and strong and some weakness would've made him a better character, he still is a flawed being as any human is. He has deficiencies, and pretty big ones.

2. That's why I said Naruto is pretty dumb for things unrelated to combat. This part of your argument is therefore void.

3. Hinata could actually faint if you tell her Naruto was behind her. She grew out of that now, but she didn't make a brilliant show of herself for most of her screentime.

4. You seem to consider yourself the only keepholder of the true meaning of the "Mary Sue" label, just as you consider yourself to be the only keepholder of the true meaning of the Naruto series. You're not. "Mary Sue" is a term that has been in constant use for years before now. The common traits of a Mary Sue, while they tend to vary, are usually intended to be:
a) Mary Sue never fails
b) Mary Sue's personality is above every criticism
c) Mary Sue's talents are above everyone else's for no apparent reason
d) Mary Sue's flaws are all minor, or even invoke sympathy (eg Mary Sue is a terrible cook)
e) Mary Sue's intervention always solves major problems in the plot
f) Mary Sue is constantly praised by the author and the other characters
Whatever you say, I partecipated to dozens of discussions about which character is a Mary Sue and which one isn't in fictions, and when people say "Mary Sue" they usually mean one character with the above written feats.


The only character in Naruto who actually fits this description is Minato. Hinata doesn't fit even one of these requirements, and Itachi and Naruto both fill only e) and f).

 

[Aim64C]

1. Itachi's description of his multiple failures in both convincing his clan (which was a good cause) and manipulate his brothers' mind (which was a downright wrong cause) are much more honest than most people in this forum are about him. The amount of things Itachi did to Sasuke under the arrogant assumption that he could see how his brother would finally grow up are almost psychopatic. Only when he openly admits he failed and his attempts to manipulate Sasuke were wrongdoings Sasuke finally started reconsidering his ways and searching a new path for himself. Itachi is pretty objective in judging his life and the evil he committed, only here on Narutobase he is hailed as a hero with no personal flaws.

Mary Sues can often have flaws. The main qualifier of a Mary Sue is that he/she is almost entirely immune to consequence. Which is why being called a Mary Sue is often a negative connotation. It's indicative of sloppy and indulgent writing that is generally boring for the reader.

Itachi "left Sasuke to Naruto" - only for Itachi, in the end, to be the impetus for series of events that led to Sasuke deciding to be a 'good guy' (or, at least, to not want to destroy everything). It's ultimately Itachi who 'saves Sasuke.'

His plan/methods may have been a bit more circuitous than he originally envisioned - but it all came down to Itachi. Arguably - Itachi saved the day, as he not only sealed Orochimaru in a way that allowed Sasuke to recover him - but also prompted Sasuke to resurrect Orochimaru to go about talking to the past Hokage... so they could come and save the alliance from a massive tailed beast bomb.

Now - I'm sure you'll try and argue that it's a bit of a stretch of logic - but do remember that Orochimaru worked for Root as well as Itachi. It would not be surprising to find out that the two had a sort of standing agreement - even a plan.

You seem to be confusing "no flaws" with "amazing competence and strenght". While I am willing to admit that Itachi is too much competent and strong and some weakness would've made him a better character, he still is a flawed being as any human is. He has deficiencies, and pretty big ones.

"No flaws" is not the definition of a Mary Sue. Unless you're talking about Highschool Musical or Twilight.

I'll go ahead and quote the origins of the term:

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"The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally original female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:


Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship."

Mary Sue is generally regarded as negative because she removes the consequence and conflict from a story - to the point where her death is actually welcomed by the audience because it means other characters get to do something rather than constantly being saved by Mary Sue.

2. That's why I said Naruto is pretty dumb for things unrelated to combat. This part of your argument is therefore void.

Naruto is brilliant in his use of tactical ploys. Much like a fox. He comes at you from angles you are unprepared for, and in ways you least expect - completely ignoring 'standard procedure' since he's pretty much skipped all those classes.

Jutsu learning and creation is a completely different monster, all together. Naruto figured out that he could use a shadow-clone to insert wind chakra. Minato - a genius working on the problem for years alongside and also a known practitioner of the Shadow-Clone jutsu... did not even think of it.

Naruto learned and even began to master wind-release, a technique that takes most Jonin years of practice, in a time frame of less than a month.

These are well outside the realms of what "raw determinaton" can be expected to achieve. He has very poor chakra control, even now - yet he mastered a new form of release and controlling that within a Rasengan within a month?

It's the defacto learning pattern for Naruto. "It took so-and-so years to learn to do that!" "I'll try really hard and stay up really late, and get it in a few days!"

[two weeks later]

"Man, that took longer than I thought. It was really challenging."

Naruto's learning process in a nutshell. There's never a task he simply can't solve through brute trial-and-error; or something he is working on throughout the story. The Fox doesn't count for this - because Naruto doesn't actually set out to 'bond' with the Fox until a hundred chapters ago, or so. And even that just kind of magically happened.

3. Hinata could actually faint if you tell her Naruto was behind her. She grew out of that now, but she didn't make a brilliant show of herself for most of her screentime.

Okay. When Naruto was cheering for her, she fought Neji head-on and refused to be defeated. From a character standpoint - she never was defeated by Neji (though she did lose the match).

4. You seem to consider yourself the only keepholder of the true meaning of the "Mary Sue" label, just as you consider yourself to be the only keepholder of the true meaning of the Naruto series. You're not.

*shrug*

When it comes to analysis, you'll find few who are better at it than me.

If I cannot tell you what is - I can tell you what may be. If it is possible to tell you what is - then it is people of my caliber that do so.

"Mary Sue" is a term that has been in constant use for years before now. The common traits of a Mary Sue, while they tend to vary, are usually intended to be:
a) Mary Sue never fails
b) Mary Sue's personality is above every criticism
c) Mary Sue's talents are above everyone else's for no apparent reason
d) Mary Sue's flaws are all minor, or even invoke sympathy (eg Mary Sue is a terrible cook)
e) Mary Sue's intervention always solves major problems in the plot
f) Mary Sue is constantly praised by the author and the other characters
Whatever you say, I partecipated to dozens of discussions about which character is a Mary Sue and which one isn't in fictions, and when people say "Mary Sue" they usually mean one character with the above written feats.

I couldn't care less about how the ignorant masses use a term. The term is used to describe a character who is anything from "annoying" to far more constrained definitions about how much a character resembles the author. Allowing emergent definitions to be treated as relevant when they draw little inspiration from the source of the term makes the term meaningless.

Words have a definition. When you start changing the definition of words - you start creating a different language. A dysfunctional proposition, particularly when it is not immediately obvious that the english words being used are not, in fact, a part of the English language.

The only character in Naruto who actually fits this description is Minato. Hinata doesn't fit even one of these requirements, and Itachi and Naruto both fill only e) and f).

Minato fits the Mary Sue title - I agree.

Not sure why 'we are arguing' over Hinata's status. I clearly argue against her being a Mary Sue.

Naruto is an expected Mary Sue. He's the Goku of the series. "But he has flaws to his personality" doesn't work. Despite these flaws - the character is seen being loved by all who surround him/her. The personality flaw is an endearing trait.

Itachi is practically a mirror instance of the origin of the phrase, except Itachi doesn't attempt to work his way into the hearts of everyone. So he's a 'Dark Mary Sue' who comes along and fixes everything even though few people really like him (except Hiashi).

Itachi would be Kakashi if he weren't a Mary Sue. Even then - Kakashi carries a considerable amount of plot-armor and plot-no-jutsu.

Which, there is a difference between plot-armor/plot-no-jutsu/etc and being a Mary-Sue... but it's more difficult to make that determination when the subject author (kishimoto) so routinely protects his characters.

 

[Momo86]

Your definition of what Mary Sue is sounds too broad to my tastes and risks to include pratically every shounen protagonist in history. But whatever. I'm not going to argue over Itachi here. We both agree that Hinata isn't a Mary Sue by any stretch, we'll just agree to disagree about everything else.