[Discussion] What is your reaction when a creationist says....

What is your reaction when a creationist says....

  • Amazement

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • Pure rage

    Votes: 7 36.8%
  • Kindly explain to them why they're wrong

    Votes: 9 47.4%

  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .

Anorien16

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Strange claiming from the one who don't know about the intermediates fossils missings...

As u said fossils are rare...... they can be even under your house.

Even Stephen Gould recognized that the average 'evolutionary tree' only shows fully formed creatures at the tips and nodes, but nothing in between.
Average Evolution tree is not the complete evolutionary trees..... they do not show a complete catalouge.

Darwin know what i talk about, Stephen Gould too but Anorien who know better than me isn't aware of it...

Oh u just parroting shit, u understand nothing as it will be demonstrated later on.

Also Anorien happens to know and not forgotten we dont have a complete record of all the animals that ever lived.... fossilization is a rare phenomenon and it will take time to find them all. Also Anorien happens to know that humans have not listed all beings that still lives let alone listing all the animals that ever lived.

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These are only according to what we have found out as of yet.... we still have to find others.. and many might not have been even fossilized and thus forever lost.

Also Darwin died long ago...... his Theory has been improved. Much like how Newton's Laws were improved.

AHHHHH!!!!! NO, NOT WIKIPEDIA! I'M UNDONE NOW! Wiki said it, I believe it, that does it.
Check the bibliography dummy.... the references are there.

Evolution need to explain where eyesight came from to begin with, which, by the way, requires not just eyes, but an ability to use light, transmit it to a brain, and the ability of the brain to interpret it.

Sensitive tissues.

So, any imagined "sequence" of eye evolution has to take into account not just the structure of the eye, but musculature, a circulatory system to nourish it and keep it working, a brain to interpret and control it, and so on.

Oh its less imaginary than supreme sky father everyone invokes...... There are some species that have those kind of tissues.

Your evolution does nothing to explain where that information to make eyes and eyesight came from in the first place.
Light sensitive tissues-> Improved light sensitive tissues-> ...........-> Eye

Nor does it explain how evolution "knew" we even NEEDED eyes!
Oh Mr. Evolution is a smart guy and he knows a lot, when we are injected with weakened/dead viruses it makes our system gradually develop immunity. It also helps lil bacteria to become resistant to certain substances eventually etc etc. Then again He does not know everything and often reduces grey cells in certain individuals.

As if evolution looked around, saw that there was light, and then decided to invent an organ that could utilize light, but not just the organ, all the muscles, nerves, etc.
Thats why there a many intermediate steps between final and initial event...... now do u understand what u have been blabbing about?We have found some, will find more later on.

that go with it, and then evolution knew just how to wire it up to the brain that evolution evolved so that the brain could see it and not only that but INTERPRET it all so that the whole organism could benefit by the ability to see light. Isn't evolution marvelous??

Yes Mr. Evolution is marvelous... he knows how to alter genes so that organisms gain Immunity against certain microbes+substances etc..... etc etc etc

Ever heard of the Trilobite's eyes, which are among the most complex eyes known, appear abruptly and very early in the fossil record. That alone blows the “complexity” argument completely out of the water.

Thats cos trilobites lived in deep oceans and had to had exceptional eye powers to use it those range of conditions of dim light and high pressure..... By very early u mean only 550 million year old fossil? When oldest fossil is about 3 billion years ago?

Ever seen the "evolutionary" tree of a horse? It's all in the imagination. No fact or testable, repeatable science involved at all.

As I said its less imaginary than a space dad.... there are evidences for those stuff.

Also what fact or testable, repeatable science for Origin of life u have got?

They're just re-working and re-wording it to fit their mythology.The truth is that evolution explains NOTHING. WE invent the explanations and then fit them into the theory and say, "See! Evolution explains it!"

Ah like Principles of radiation was reworked to fit the new data during ultraviolet catastrophe? Or how Light was explained only recently and all ideas rewritten or rejected? Or like how Einstein proved Newton's laws were inadequate? Dont pretend to talk smart when u dont understand shit ok?

Anyway.... if evolution explains nothing please explain how bacteria develops immunity eventually when exposed to certain toxic substances. Just dont point and say: 'Goddidit'

Also speaking of mythology, there are people who accept some of them with out researching or proving them at all, even when there are evidence that indicate otherwise.
 

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No man, you don't start this on a site like NB.
 

Aim64C

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What should be an in between species? let us know please.......

Part of the problem with evolution is that it doesn't actually provide for what a species is, or describe how a new species actually comes into existence.

Take different breeds of domestic dogs. All are the same species as they are genetically compatible with each other and can create viable offspring (well, some cross breeding will actually kill the mother and babies without human intervention, but there's no issue, genetically).

The problem is that the mechanics within the theory of evolution predicts a gradient of potentials where we observe sets of quantized potentials. There should be countless intermediary species both alive and dead for us to track. Yet we can't seem to find anything other than: "well, this is in one species" and "this is in another species." How the finch separated from the sparrow is not at all clear... and even Red Queen dynamics only explain a limited portion of speciation. How a population comes about gaining a different number of chromosomes, particularly within complex sexually reproducing organisms, is puzzling.

Math just doesn't support the idea that a sexually reproducing species can gain or lose chromosomes. Even if you were to give an organism two additional chromosomes (so it could reproduce) that did not also cause it to be defunct - the only species it is likely to be able to reproduce with will generate offspring with odd numbers of chromosomes (always) - unless a second individual of the opposite *** happens to develop the same 'condition' (also not becoming defunct) and the two happen to become each others' mates.

It doesn't work under classical mechanics. You would never see the diversity of life we have on this planet so long as we believe past events that were not observed occured under classical mechanics.

Also as your understanding is low enough: evolutionary trees in their short forms only lists significant specimens, various species and subspecies are reserved for longer forms of a particular. Look at the proposed homo sapien lineage, i have no idea what incomplete/inbetween species are but i think that what u are talking about.

Even this is limited. It doesn't denote 'true species' and merely categorizes genetic variance within a reproductively viable population. This becomes even more blurry when you consider evidence collected that humans interbred with neandertals and another unknown species within Africa. This challenges the notion that those 'separate species' died out (or even could die out) as it's probable that they became absorbed into the larger populations of homosapiens (or... perhaps the interbreeding created what we now identify as a separate species, homosapiens).

But, at what point did we cease our ability to reproduce with chimpanzees? And how did that -individual- propagate that to the point of becoming a distinct species?

As for countless intermidiates... here is evolution of eye: ...... u will find plenty intermediates between the primitive and modern eye.

Plenty of things claimed to be intermediaries. The problem is that few of these exist within a defined tract. The other problem is that the eyes rely upon numerous interdependent systems of varying complexity and 'reductivity.' The more we learn about the specifics of genetic information and how it works to form tissues, the more vexing the creation of new tissues with distinct and specific functions becomes. Multiple separate mutations must culminate within a single individual to produce a survival and/or reproductive advantage.

The theory of evolution was well established by time we discovered the mechanisms that stored our hereditary information. Evolution has not really adapted well to the growing understanding of how DNA functions to produce organisms. The more we learn about the specifics of how proteins and tissues are built from DNA... the more challenging it becomes to explain evolution.

Before, it was acceptable to say: "Well, some clear tissue from the skin of some ancient fish served to protect the eye and then the environment selected for a structure of that clear skin that then formed a lens." ... But that doesn't sound nearly as plausible, anymore. The lens is a completely different tissue with a muscle and neuron network integrated together. Then you have much different tissues put together to form the iris.

It sounds nice and complete until you start looking at the actual changes to the DNA that must take place for those things. When you do that, nothing makes sense under classical mechanics. Statistics state that if we sat and watched a bowl of extremophile bacteria for as long as life has supposedly been around (subjecting it to various environmental conditions) - we'd have something like a 1:4 odds of evolving yeasts from them.

Also Darwins Theory was updated and upgraded long ago..... this is 2013 btw.

Honestly, many of the existing paradigms in evolution need to be thrown out and the whole thing looked at anew with the more modern understanding of genetics and the difficulty in identifying species.

I even argue that new physics needs to be considered - that the universe is something of a Schrodinger's Cat until 'observed.' Functionally speaking, as information about the past is lost due to entropy - the details of the past become increasingly irrelevant and begin to enter a state known as quantum coherence. Under this idea - the genetic potential of reproductively viable populations can contribute to the formation of 'branching' species, with the effect growing stronger as additional information becomes unavailable.

Of course... at this point - anyone versed in the philosophical conundrums imposed by Quantum Mechanics will pick up that this means, functionally, that the past did not exist, but is a product derived from the current state of our observed system. But it is the only way we can avoid evoking a highly intelligent selective process within evolution.

So - pick your poison. 1:[infinite] statistical odds of us coming about through unaided classic mechanics.
Evoking the power of some intelligent force that stood behind the breeding selection of life for as long as it's been around.
Determining that conscious experience (whatever that is) is what difinitively collapses (decoheres) quantum entangled (coherent) states, leading to many parts of our past being derived and subject to quantum operations.
Or that God poofed things into existence at various times and places (though that being separate from the above is a matter of perspective).

That... or some other radically different theory of common or uncommon ancestry has to come up that works within classical mechanics. And what that could be is beyond me.
 

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Anorien16

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Part of the problem with evolution is that it doesn't actually provide for what a species is, or describe how a new species actually comes into existence.

Take different breeds of domestic dogs. All are the same species as they are genetically compatible with each other and can create viable offspring (well, some cross breeding will actually kill the mother and babies without human intervention, but there's no issue, genetically).

The problem is that the mechanics within the theory of evolution predicts a gradient of potentials where we observe sets of quantized potentials. There should be countless intermediary species both alive and dead for us to track. Yet we can't seem to find anything other than: "well, this is in one species" and "this is in another species." How the finch separated from the sparrow is not at all clear... and even Red Queen dynamics only explain a limited portion of speciation. How a population comes about gaining a different number of chromosomes, particularly within complex sexually reproducing organisms, is puzzling.

Math just doesn't support the idea that a sexually reproducing species can gain or lose chromosomes. Even if you were to give an organism two additional chromosomes (so it could reproduce) that did not also cause it to be defunct - the only species it is likely to be able to reproduce with will generate offspring with odd numbers of chromosomes (always) - unless a second individual of the opposite *** happens to develop the same 'condition' (also not becoming defunct) and the two happen to become each others' mates.

It doesn't work under classical mechanics. You would never see the diversity of life we have on this planet so long as we believe past events that were not observed occured under classical mechanics.



Even this is limited. It doesn't denote 'true species' and merely categorizes genetic variance within a reproductively viable population. This becomes even more blurry when you consider evidence collected that humans interbred with neandertals and another unknown species within Africa. This challenges the notion that those 'separate species' died out (or even could die out) as it's probable that they became absorbed into the larger populations of homosapiens (or... perhaps the interbreeding created what we now identify as a separate species, homosapiens).

But, at what point did we cease our ability to reproduce with chimpanzees? And how did that -individual- propagate that to the point of becoming a distinct species?



Plenty of things claimed to be intermediaries. The problem is that few of these exist within a defined tract. The other problem is that the eyes rely upon numerous interdependent systems of varying complexity and 'reductivity.' The more we learn about the specifics of genetic information and how it works to form tissues, the more vexing the creation of new tissues with distinct and specific functions becomes. Multiple separate mutations must culminate within a single individual to produce a survival and/or reproductive advantage.

The theory of evolution was well established by time we discovered the mechanisms that stored our hereditary information. Evolution has not really adapted well to the growing understanding of how DNA functions to produce organisms. The more we learn about the specifics of how proteins and tissues are built from DNA... the more challenging it becomes to explain evolution.

Before, it was acceptable to say: "Well, some clear tissue from the skin of some ancient fish served to protect the eye and then the environment selected for a structure of that clear skin that then formed a lens." ... But that doesn't sound nearly as plausible, anymore. The lens is a completely different tissue with a muscle and neuron network integrated together. Then you have much different tissues put together to form the iris.

It sounds nice and complete until you start looking at the actual changes to the DNA that must take place for those things. When you do that, nothing makes sense under classical mechanics. Statistics state that if we sat and watched a bowl of extremophile bacteria for as long as life has supposedly been around (subjecting it to various environmental conditions) - we'd have something like a 1:4 odds of evolving yeasts from them.



Honestly, many of the existing paradigms in evolution need to be thrown out and the whole thing looked at anew with the more modern understanding of genetics and the difficulty in identifying species.

I even argue that new physics needs to be considered - that the universe is something of a Schrodinger's Cat until 'observed.' Functionally speaking, as information about the past is lost due to entropy - the details of the past become increasingly irrelevant and begin to enter a state known as quantum coherence. Under this idea - the genetic potential of reproductively viable populations can contribute to the formation of 'branching' species, with the effect growing stronger as additional information becomes unavailable.

Of course... at this point - anyone versed in the philosophical conundrums imposed by Quantum Mechanics will pick up that this means, functionally, that the past did not exist, but is a product derived from the current state of our observed system. But it is the only way we can avoid evoking a highly intelligent selective process within evolution.

So - pick your poison. 1:[infinite] statistical odds of us coming about through unaided classic mechanics.
Evoking the power of some intelligent force that stood behind the breeding selection of life for as long as it's been around.
Determining that conscious experience (whatever that is) is what difinitively collapses (decoheres) quantum entangled (coherent) states, leading to many parts of our past being derived and subject to quantum operations.
Or that God poofed things into existence at various times and places (though that being separate from the above is a matter of perspective).

That... or some other radically different theory of common or uncommon ancestry has to come up that works within classical mechanics. And what that could be is beyond me.

The great Aim64c has spoken, I am honored and humbled (also in a matter of fact stand corrected in many respects) . . . . .

As usual your correct in your statements.....

-Yes separating different species in an absolute sense is very difficult. I personally think its due to the fact that every living thing is in fact a biological bomb of different possible genetic traits within certain limitations, so separating a species in an absolute sense is foolish at this moment, rather we should use a 'tends to' approach for now. Also using maths and classical mechanics in this respect is foolish too, its like trying to quantify or measure Dancing. Somethings just is.....

- Also yes coincidences in the various aspects can not be mere coincidences, they indeed seem to be driven my some unseen will. But whether nature made them or they moved along with flow of nature as best as they could is the question?

- I myself have serious reservation regarding the current theory (But I dont like people who straight away reject the theory with the dumbest of reasons), as they seem unconvincing in some aspects like:division of plant and animal kingdom, division of male and female, and how the **** does suddenly an individual appear who is adaptable (partially or so) to uncomfortable conditions? Does the individuals undergo some kind of genetic level change during its lifetime that eventually gives rise a adaptable mutant? or is it something else totally? Perhaps the findings of the Lenski experiment will shed light on this later on. I would like to say that I am not against the idea of a supreme creator or something similar but I will not accept that the Creator of this universe is like some copyrighted property of a certain group of people, unless he clears up the matter himself/herself.

- Yes classical mechanics can not be applied to many cases.

- About that choice.... since I am a patient man I would not reach for conclusions as of yet as we seem to learning something new everyday, I will wait till the day our understanding has developed enough to grasp and explain all of the facts seamlessly (I dont think that wld be in my life time)..... I am not against any creator poofing everything to existence but just that I need proper evidence supporting the details nearly every kind of people has unearthed regarding everything they say.

- Despite my or your reservations regarding the Theory some things seem to clear beyond doubt: Life changes and new variations (however small) of may or may not arise due to it. And if i may arise in future then it might have arrived in the past + Not all life known forms appeared at once. But as U said (Classically speaking) Past is but dust, the present is a gift and future is a hope...... so we better live in the moment.

PS I am most definitely not up to your caliber . . . . . this was just my yet undeveloped thoughts on this matter, pardon me for the ignorance for my part.

PPS I am being sincere not trolling.
 
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King Of Crows

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The great Aim64c has spoken, I am honored and humbled (also in a matter of fact stand corrected in many respects) . . . . .

As usual your correct in your statements.....

-Yes separating different species in an absolute sense is very difficult. I personally think its due to the fact that every living thing is in fact a biological bomb of different possible genetic traits within certain limitations, so separating a species in an absolute sense is foolish at this moment, rather we should use a 'tends to' approach for now. Also using maths and classical mechanics in this respect is foolish too, its like trying to quantify or measure Dancing. Somethings just is.....

- Also yes coincidences in the various aspects can not be mere coincidences, they indeed seem to be driven my some unseen will. But whether nature made them or they moved along with flow of nature as best as they could is the question?

- I myself have serious reservation regarding the current theory (But I dont like people who straight away reject the theory with the dumbest of reasons), as they seem unconvincing in some aspects like:division of plant and animal kingdom, division of male and female, and how the **** does suddenly an individual who is adaptable (partially or so) to uncomfortable conditions? Does the individuals undergo some kind of genetic level change during its lifetime that eventually gives rise a adaptable mutant? or is it something else totally? Perhaps the findings of the Lenski experiment will shed light on this later on. I would like to say that I am not against the idea of a supreme creator or something similar but I will not accept that the Creator of this universe is like some copyrighted property of a certain group of people, unless he clears up the matter himself/herself.

- Yes classical mechanics can not be applied to many cases.

- About that choice.... since I am a patient man I would not reach for conclusions as of yet as we seem to learning something new everyday, I will wait till the day our understanding has developed enough to grasp and explain all of the facts seamlessly (I dont think that wld be in my life time)..... I am not against any creator poofing everything to existence but just that I need proper evidence supporting the details nearly every kind of people has unearthed regarding everything they say.

- Despite my or your reservations regarding the Theory some things seem to clear beyond doubt: Life changes and new variations (how ever small) of may may arise due to it. And if i may arise in future then it might have arrived in the past. And as U said (Classically speaking) Past is but dust, the present is a gift and future is a hope...... so we better live in the moment.

PS I am most definitely not up to your caliber . . . . . this was just my yet undeveloped thoughts on this matter, pardon me for the ignorance for my part.

PPS I am being sincere not trolling.



All hail the magic conch shell :yayy: ! ( SpongeBob reference )
 

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As u said fossils are rare...... they can be even under your house.

It's just that the fossil record gaps have not been filled, nor will they.

I'll tell you what evidence we'd expect to see if evolution were true. w'd expect TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of FAILED fossils in the record. I mean all sorts of evolutionary monsters, not fully-formed, functional entities. We'd expect to be seeing LOTS of evolution in action RIGHT NOW, that is, species changing from one to the other.

The FACT is, the fossil record shows nothing but fully formed, fully functional organisms.


Average Evolution tree is not the complete evolutionary trees..... they do not show a complete catalouge.

The best they can do is use their imagination, and that's what they did.
You get a couple of different bones and build an entire belief system on them, drawing imaginary 'transitional' lines between them.Lack of transitional fossils was the biggest threat to the theory. Get over it - they ain't there.

Oh u just parroting shit, u understand nothing as it will be demonstrated later on.

I'm not trying to "understand" evolution. There's nothing to understand. It's like telling me please stop trying to understand astrology

Also Anorien happens to know and not forgotten we dont have a complete record of all the animals that ever lived....
fossilization is a rare phenomenon and it will take time to find them all.


There you have it. Without the miracle working goddess Time, your theory fails. Add time, and evolution can do all sorts of magic tricks.A nickel won't change into a paper dollar in a year or a billion years. So if life did not, and cannot, evolve, it's not going to do so no matter how much time you add. But the evolutionists NEED time, because it's their smokescreen behind which to hide. They KNOW evolution can't be true, but sure enough if you say it needed millions of years, nobody can test or prove it, so your case is closed.

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These are only according to what we have found out as of yet.... we still have to find others.. and many might not have been even fossilized and thus forever lost.

You've missed the boat here. If you really don't think scientists fudge their results, you're either deliberately blind, or naive. Scientists are human like the rest of us - and fallible - especially when money, or reputation, etc., are involved. In fact stories are always coming out about how scientists do just that, and evolutionary history is filled with them - Piltdown man, Nebraska man, the peppered moth - do some research. Or read Icons of Evolution, by Jonathan Wells.

Also Darwin died long ago...... his Theory has been improved. Much like how Newton's Laws were improved.

The only thing that's really changing and adapting is the theory of evolution. Evolution is like clay: you can mold it, adapt it, and fit it wherever and however necessary, so that the theory adjusts to whatever twists and turns are necessary to its form, function, and propagation.

Oh its less imaginary than supreme sky father everyone invokes...... There are some species that have those kind of tissues.

Nonono in fact molecules got together and started forming stuff. Then they came to life. Magically. Then they figured out how to reproduce. Magically. Then they got bigger and started forming eyes, ears, teeth, tongues, nerves, digestive systems, hair. And they neat part is, all those parts were magically organized and put in just the right places in a body covered by skin that was able to move, breathe, say "meow" and so on! Isn't evolution just...., welll..., MAGICAL????


Light sensitive tissues-> Improved light sensitive tissues-> ...........-> Eye

How did an eye know it needed to see light? How did Evolution figure out how to get the eye to see light? How did Evolution even know light existed? It DIDN'T.


Oh Mr. Evolution is a smart guy and he knows a lot, when we are injected with weakened/dead viruses it makes our system gradually develop immunity. It also helps lil bacteria to become resistant to certain substances eventually etc etc. Then again He does not know everything and often reduces grey cells in certain individuals.


Yes Mr. Evolution is marvelous... he knows how to alter genes so that organisms gain Immunity against certain microbes+substances etc..... etc etc etc

Species change and adapt, but that has nothing to do with evolution from particles to pandas to palms to Peter. The adaptation ability is inherent, already built into the genetic structure of the species.

I like these desperate attempts to "prove" the myth, like appealing to antibiotic resistance in bacteria (another falsified tenet of evolution) are pathetic at best. Here's the typical philosophical leap the evolutionist takes: "Bacteria develop antibiotic resistance. That PROVES that bacteria turned into Bob and Barbara over millions of years!" Oh boy!

Thats cos trilobites lived in deep oceans and had to had exceptional eye powers to use it those range of conditions of dim light and high pressure..... By very early u mean only 550 million year old fossil? When oldest fossil is about 3 billion years ago?

Evolutionists claim that eyes gradually evolved.It's eye is so complex that it could not have evolved,especially since there are no transitional fossils that indicate an evolution.

As I said its less imaginary than a space dad.... there are evidences for those stuff.

Also what fact or testable, repeatable science for Origin of life u have got?

The appearance of the universe from nowhere and nothing, and its subsequent assembling of itself into everything we know, is not testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present. Therefore, any attempts to "prove" it happened that way by performing laboratory experiments designed, executed and interpreted by an intelligent being (often thousands of them) fall flat.

Ah like Principles of radiation was reworked to fit the new data during ultraviolet catastrophe? Or how Light was explained only recently and all ideas rewritten or rejected? Or like how Einstein proved Newton's laws were inadequate? Dont pretend to talk smart when u dont understand shit ok?


Anyway.... if evolution explains nothing please explain how bacteria develops immunity eventually when exposed to certain toxic substances. Just dont point and say: 'Goddidit'

Also speaking of mythology, there are people who accept some of them with out researching or proving them at all, even when there are evidence that indicate otherwise.

Your argument amounts to the following: Evolution is demonstrably false, but since we don't have a substitute (or I should say we do, but don't want to accept it as such), we can't trash it.

Let's put it another way: We're going to choose to believe a lie because we haven't come up with a better explanation.

Or another way: This tool is totally useless for the job I'm trying to do, but I'm not gonna trash it till another tool comes along.

Or another way: I believe in flying saucers even though there's absolutely no proof they exist, because I haven't seen a better explanation for those strange lights I saw the other night, and that other people say they see now and then.

Or one more: I believe astrology is the best explanation for what guides our daily activities, because that's the best explanation we have for what's guiding us, and until someone comes up with a better one, I'm going to believe it, despite the fact there's not a shred of evidence that it's true.

Your just-so statement that evolution is a 'great explanatory theory' amounts to admitting that it's a great basis on which to build fairy tale stories that supposedly explain where everything came from. And we're gonna believe those fairy tales come hell or high water. Evolution is an 'explanatory' theory only in that its adherents are very adept at inventing explanations to keep the theory alive. You have the same facts that I have, and that thousands of other scientists who do NOT believe in evolution have, and we use different 'explanatory' theories to explain the facts. Once again, you're confusing the facts with the theory. Evolution explains nothing. People explain things. It's called interpretation. And it's a faith belief, and you are one of its fanatical defenders.
 

Anorien16

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It's just that the fossil record gaps have not been filled, nor will they.
And they said once man can never fly..... but yes we can not dig up the entire planet.

I'll tell you what evidence we'd expect to see if evolution were true. w'd expect TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of FAILED fossils in the record. I mean all sorts of evolutionary monsters, not fully-formed, functional entities. We'd expect to be seeing LOTS of evolution in action RIGHT NOW, that is, species changing from one to the other.

Well I dont like to call people retards but extreme cases may force me ..... Isnt the extinction of a species the proof of their failures? Also what the heck is a not-fully-formed creature? Your expecting an organism with half a heart or 1/3 an eye or something? There are creatures with primitive forms of stuff and some advanced form of stuff and their intermediates...... but then again there are examples of creatures with half a brain or some even dont have any.

The FACT is, the fossil record shows nothing but fully formed, fully functional organisms.

What is a not-fully-formed organism? Also if an organism is not functional, it wont have the chance to live and see if its fit for survival.


The best they can do is use their imagination, and that's what they did.
You get a couple of different bones and build an entire belief system on them, drawing imaginary 'transitional' lines between them.Lack of transitional fossils was the biggest threat to the theory. Get over it - they ain't there.

Well since we dont have time machines we can not go back and take pictures... so sometimes we are fored to use imagination to get an idea... for example If we got only the left leg, not the right.... we can have an accurate guess what the right leg would look like.
Lack of trasitional fossils? I think its otherwise:

Also I am sure there is always more than a couple of bones, some specimens are well preserved.

I'm not trying to "understand" evolution. There's nothing to understand. It's like telling me please stop trying to understand astrology

U probably deserve an award for that..... not trying to understand a topic and blabbing on.


There you have it. Without the miracle working goddess Time, your theory fails. Add time, and evolution can do all sorts of magic tricks.A nickel won't change into a paper dollar in a year or a billion years. So if life did not, and cannot, evolve, it's not going to do so no matter how much time you add.

No it wont turn to a dollar but it may be buried back to the deep earth.... be melted in the mantle .....then finally form a igneous rock or something. Also non living things dont evolve.

But the evolutionists NEED time, because it's their smokescreen behind which to hide. They KNOW evolution can't be true, but sure enough if you say it needed millions of years, nobody can test or prove it, so your case is closed.

Ever heard of Lenski? That guy took only 25 years to get a minor evolutionary change in some bacteria. See:

You've missed the boat here. If you really don't think scientists fudge their results, you're either deliberately blind, or naive.
Yes yes they may fudge it but may be forced or persuaded to fudge it etc etc

Scientists are human like the rest of us - and fallible - especially when money, or reputation, etc., are involved. In fact stories are always coming out about how scientists do just that,

Some of the people does that... not only scientists ..... But usually not entire community of a particular discipline is not involved.

and evolutionary history is filled with them

Most things are filled with hoaxes and misconceptions..... after discovery of radiation, some retards began selling uranium products like soaps and belts claiming they got miraculous powers.

-Piltdown man,
Hoax

Nebraska man,

Large number people of the scientific community rejected the popular idea spread about by the media and declared it to be inconclusive.

the peppered moth

There was a smear propaganda against it..... but things was resolved long ago with a proper conclusion.

- do some research. Or read Icons of Evolution, by Jonathan Wells.

I have done so...... but a few attention seeking cowards not gonna implicate the entire idea.

The only thing that's really changing and adapting is the theory of evolution. Evolution is like clay: you can mold it, adapt it, and fit it wherever and however necessary, so that the theory adjusts to whatever twists and turns are necessary to its form, function, and propagation.

Any theory is like that..... are u aware how much any other theory like Theory of Radiation or the Theory of Propagation of Light, or Structure of Atoms was changed and corrected when new data came to be revealed?

Nonono in fact molecules got together and started forming stuff.

Well yes that happened during a lab experiment..... some basic subtances put together in a container and left alone for a long time under extreme conditions similar to early earth situations and volia there were some complex proteins or something.

Then they came to life.
Even the defination of life is confusing due to the little buggers called viruses.

Magically. Then they figured out how to reproduce.
As opposed to someone teaching them? Even about how to cell divide?

Magically. Then they got bigger and started forming eyes, ears, teeth, tongues, nerves, digestive systems, hair. And they neat part is, all those parts were magically organized and put in just the right places in a body covered by skin that was able to move, breathe, say "meow" and so on! Isn't evolution just...., welll..., MAGICAL????

Seemingly yes. But u missed trillions of intermediate steps. Also even most primitive of cells have digestive systems..... they are as old as life they seems, except for viruses or some similar kind.

How did an eye know it needed to see light? How did Evolution figure out how to get the eye to see light? How did Evolution even know light existed? It DIDN'T.
I would repeat: Just like he figured out how to change some genes in some organism to make them immune against certain substances and microorganisms that was previously harming them.... he figured them out.

Also judging from your wordings.... ur looking for a God or something similar, saying how evolution figured that out or this out. Its like saying that a volcano knows where the weakest point in the crust is, so that it can move through it.


Species change and adapt, but that has nothing to do with evolution from particles to pandas to palms to Peter. The adaptation ability is inherent, already built into the genetic structure of the species.

Yet the genetic structure itself changes..... also Evolution is not science?

I like these desperate attempts to "prove" the myth, like appealing to antibiotic resistance in bacteria (another falsified tenet of evolution) are pathetic at best.

Falsified?...... oh ho.....

Here's the typical philosophical leap the evolutionist takes: "Bacteria develop antibiotic resistance. That PROVES that bacteria turned into Bob and Barbara over millions of years!" Oh boy!

And here is the typical retarded leap retards take to win the argument. Development of antibiotic resistance by bacteria only suggests that 'living things magically alter their genetic codes to better adapt to drastic situations'...... it does not suggest the shit ur shitting.

Evolutionists claim that eyes gradually evolved.It's eye is so complex that it could not have evolved,especially since there are no transitional fossils that indicate an evolution.

Ohh really? U better rescearch too: , , etc

The appearance of the universe from nowhere and nothing, and its subsequent assembling of itself into everything we know, is not testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present. Therefore, any attempts to "prove" it happened that way by performing laboratory experiments designed, executed and interpreted by an intelligent being (often thousands of them) fall flat.

Many things fall flat with that kind of logic....... Even the sudden appearance or creation of the Earth from nowhere and nothing, by some unknown force, is not testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present.

Your argument amounts to the following: Evolution is demonstrably false,
Nope: Reread Lenski Experiment.

but since we don't have a substitute (or I should say we do, but don't want to accept it as such), we can't trash it.

Well provide the testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present, substitute and prove it beyond doubt and everyone will trash The Theory of Evolution. But until .......

Let's put it another way: We're going to choose to believe a lie because we haven't come up with a better explanation.

Nope: we are going to study and research until everything makes sense and we reach enlightenment.

Or another way: This tool is totally useless for the job I'm trying to do, but I'm not gonna trash it till another tool comes along.

Thats the logical thing to do, as u can not cut a tree with an water pistol.

Or another way: I believe in flying saucers even though there's absolutely no proof they exist, because I haven't seen a better explanation for those strange lights I saw the other night, and that other people say they see now and then.

Basic logic suggests, that strange light = source of light which may or may not be a flying saucer..... it is never strange light = flying saucer....... their logic is flawed.

Or one more: I believe astrology is the best explanation for what guides our daily activities, because that's the best explanation we have for what's guiding us, and until someone comes up with a better one, I'm going to believe it, despite the fact there's not a shred of evidence that it's true.
Well your presumption is wrong at the root: Astrology is used by some people to PREDICT the future, they do not guide the world rather the world is seemingly reflected in them. Plus this is debatable since there IS some instances of successful predictions...... so there may or may not be shred of truth in them, so let us observe and come to a conclusion .... and current conclusion is that its no more accurate than palm reading.

Your just-so statement that evolution is a 'great explanatory theory' amounts to admitting that it's a great basis on which to build fairy tale stories that supposedly explain where everything came from.

Theories are supposed to explain the data, so yes it has to explain everything. Also scientists dont create fairy tales, people does.... scientists come to conclusion form data.

And we're gonna believe those fairy tales come hell or high water.

Need supporting data to be accepted in a scientific manner.

Evolution is an 'explanatory' theory only in that its adherents are very adept at inventing explanations to keep the theory alive.

Same goes for Theory of Light, Structure of Atoms etc etc then?

You have the same facts that I have, and that thousands of other scientists who do NOT believe in evolution have, and we use different 'explanatory' theories to explain the facts.

Majority of Biologists believe and works with The theory of Evolution.

Once again, you're confusing the facts with the theory. Evolution explains nothing.

Well Theory of Evolution explains stuff, Evolution is an phenomenon.

People explain things. It's called interpretation.

Let people explain/interpret say Electro Magnetic Induction.

And it's a faith belief, and you are one of its fanatical defenders.

Ah I could say so much in response..... but I will just say: 'Mirror Mirror on the Wall'
 

Cornson

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Darwin too admitted there should be "countless intermediates." So where are they?
Instead we have evolutionary "trees" that have fully formed, complex life forms at the end of their branches, but nothing in between. Some feeble attempts to construct imaginary lines of descent for horses and whales have been amply debunked.
Strange claiming from the one who don't know about the intermediates fossils missings...

Even Stephen Gould recognized that the average 'evolutionary tree' only shows fully formed creatures at the tips and nodes, but nothing in between.
you do realize that every single generation is a intermediate species right?
your parents had *** and you wore the result, if you end up finding a girl and have a child with her, you will be the intermediate link betwean your parents and your child. and you expect us to show you those intermediate fossils... There will never ever be a "full" evolutionary tree, because the process of fossilisation is so extreamly rare, and the fact that you keep "demanding" to see them just shows how ignorant you are on the subject.
It's just that the fossil record gaps have not been filled, nor will they..
correct, so why do you keep saying you want us to show you all the gaps?

I'll tell you what evidence we'd expect to see if evolution were true. w'd expect TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of FAILED fossils in the record. I mean all sorts of evolutionary monsters, not fully-formed, functional entities. We'd expect to be seeing LOTS of evolution in action RIGHT NOW, that is, species changing from one to the other.

The FACT is, the fossil record shows nothing but fully formed, fully functional organisms.

And yes again you portray your ignorance, evolution would show the exact oppeset of what you are claiming it will.

what you are claiming is that you would expect to see a 7 eyed, 4 legged human being born, because evolution is species changing from one to the other, and that is just not how it works.
Evolution is extreamly minor changes betwean every single generation, we are talking decimal small changes, you ususally need hundreds if not thousands of generations to pass by before you can see a noticiable change in a species, it's like if you saw a picture of every single generation of "insert a random species here" for a generation gab of 10.000 in the correct order, you won't really notice a difference betwean if you look at every single picture in cronical order, but if you took picture 1 and compared it to picture 9,712 you should be able to see many differences in the species (they could be, slightly larger, or smaller limbs, minor kranial changes, placement of eyes in the skull, etc) and if you could try and have nr 1 creature having offspring with nr 9,712 and they wore not able to have fertile offspring, then you would have 2 different species.

Ohh and do you want to hear a fun fact?

There are more Scientists with the name Ted that belives that the Theory of evolution is true, than all those scientists that believes the theory to be false...
 
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hokutoshinken

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And they said once man can never fly..... but yes we can not dig up the entire planet.

Fly? I love the evolutionary mythological stories about how flight developed.There's a big display on how flight evolved in birds. A big, dumb display. Because it only talks about wings, and there's a whole lot more to flying than just growing a pair of wings, but the Chuckie Dee Club doesn't want you to think about that. Just look at the display and let them do the thinking for you.

Flight is more than just wings. It's like saying if you just put wings on a big, wide, long tube, it'll be able to fly people across the world. Birds need more than wings to fly. They need just the right feathers, the right bones, the right muscles, the right respiratory system, the right weight, the right shape, and – get this – the ABILITY. Or did they just evolve that from thin air ( a pun, yes, a bad pun)? They need their brains to be wired up for flight. So, where did THAT come from? An explosion? THINK about this stuff. DON'T JUST ACCEPT IT.

I can't say that enough, but evolutionists just don't seem to get it.
We don't see evolution happening, no matter what pathetic "examples" the evolutionists try to foist on the public. In all the millions of species that still exist, not counting the extinct ones, there should be lots of evidence of evolution, and there's not. Stephen Gould called the lack of transitional fossils "the trade secret of paleontology." That's from one of the popes of evolution. What more could you ask for?

Well I dont like to call people retards but extreme cases may force me .....

Thanks for the intellectual input.

Isnt the extinction of a species the proof of their failures? Also what the heck is a not-fully-formed creature? Your expecting an organism with half a heart or 1/3 an eye or something? There are creatures with primitive forms of stuff and some advanced form of stuff and their intermediates...... but then again there are examples of creatures with half a brain or some even dont have any.

What is a not-fully-formed organism? Also if an organism is not functional, it wont have the chance to live and see if its fit for survival.

Things are going extinct in our own day. I think this is kind of funny, actually, how hypocritical evolutionists are. They're crying and whining about things going extinct on the one hand, while on the other they'd say that if things DIDN'T go extinct, "new" living things could not take their place. Well, where are all the "new" living things that should be popping into existence to supplant the ones going extinct? And why, for that matter, get upset about pollution and such? Won't new living things just adapt and evolve to live with it? And didn't all living things start in a mixture of noxious gases at the beginning of time? So why worry?! The fossils do not show "failed" evolutionary experiments. They show completely formed, functional living things, with eyes, bones, etc. They show things that died off for one reason or other, and were NOT replaced. A "failed" evolutionary experiment (and the record should show COUNTLESS ones) would be something like a half formed wings, or an elbow on the forehead of a human, or a toe sticking out of a knee. THOSE would show that evolution was "at work" to figure out where would be the best place for those things to be. How about a stomach attached to a hand, or a mouth with teeth on the outside, running up the nose? That would be a real evolutionary experiment in the making.How is it that evolution "knew" just the right places to put everything? How did it know to put teeth in your mouth, and not on your feet? Have you ever THOUGHT about this stuff?

Well since we dont have time machines we can not go back and take pictures... so sometimes we are fored to use imagination to get an idea... for example If we got only the left leg, not the right.... we can have an accurate guess what the right leg would look like.
Lack of trasitional fossils? I think its otherwise:

Also I am sure there is always more than a couple of bones, some specimens are well preserved.

That is just a handful of imaginary, evolutionist wishful thinking "transitions."
As i said the fossil record shows fully formed, functional living things, not "becoming" things.

Yep it's all in imagination.Like those pictures of cave people are someone's imagination. Give an artist a bone, and who knows what "pre-humans" will look like when he gets through with it? It's all imagination. Nobody can take one of my jaw bones and tell me what I looked like without having actually seen me, but these guys are dead sure about what somebody looked like, and where they lived, and how they lived, based on a few fossil teeth or bones.

So cave couple decide to have a baby. Where did they figure out how to do that?Did some fish that turned into an amphibian that turned into a chimpanzee that turned into a caveman show them how? And if fish have babies by laying eggs, then why did that have to change? The fish were doing just fine. In fact, why did they even have to come out of the water? Are they better off now that they're people, on land, shooting at each other? Oh, by the way, fish eggs and other eggs are real "simple" things, aren't they? I mean, what does it take to make an egg that contains all the information to create a new organism? A kid could do it in his spare time. Just make sure it's a couple million years of spare time, because Time can perform all miracles. The Time goddess made eggs! Thanks, Time! Thanks for bacon, too!

U probably deserve an award for that..... not trying to understand a topic and blabbing on.

Sorry you did not pick up on the sarcasm in my statement about having a poor understanding of evolutionary theory. I’ll just leave it at that.

No it wont turn to a dollar but it may be buried back to the deep earth.... be melted in the mantle .....then finally form a igneous rock or something. Also non living things dont evolve.

There is not a shred of evidence that particles can organize themselves, come to life, begin to replicate, and turn into every living thing we know. NONE. Therefore, the "time" element is irrelevant! You can add all the Time you want! It just ain't gonna happen!

Ever heard of Lenski? That guy took only 25 years to get a minor evolutionary change in some bacteria. See:

What they are observing is nothing more than duplication,rearrangement of the preexsisting information while loosing the regulation mechanism which then allowed the uptake of citrate by the E. Coli.

Experiments performed in a lab that SUPPOSEDLY DEMONSTRATE OR PROVE EVOLUTION do not emulate nature, because they have a designer, a creator, and a superintendent who runs the experiment to make sure everything works properly and gets results, and then an intelligent being interprets and applies the results. That's completely contrary to the notion that nature created itself and runs itself, with no outside information, no outside intelligence, and no outside guidance, and no purpose other than that which we assign to it.

That doesn't prove that bacteria turned into Bob all by themselves.

Yes yes they may fudge it but may be forced or persuaded to fudge it etc etc

There are also a number of articles online that deal with the fallacies of radiometric dating and how scientists "fudge" to get the results they want. He who seeks, finds.

Some of the people does that... not only scientists ..... But usually not entire community of a particular discipline is not involved.

Most things are filled with hoaxes and misconceptions..... after discovery of radiation, some retards began selling uranium products like soaps and belts claiming they got miraculous powers.

Are you naive enough to think that an evolutionist is going to give an unbiased review of research that goes against his cherished mythology? If you are, then too bad for you.

Read some articles about the established fact of bias in "peer review." The operative word is PEER, as in PEER PRESSURE.

Large number people of the scientific community rejected the popular idea spread about by the media and declared it to be inconclusive.

They're all hoax, likes the reconstructions, drawings, modelling which reflect only evolutionists' imaginations, not scientific discoveries.

"You can with equal facility model on a Neanderthaloid skull the features of a chimpanzee or the lineaments of a philosopher." Earnest A. Hooton

There was a smear propaganda against it..... but things was resolved long ago with a proper conclusion.

OF COURSE they're not going to admit it's irrelevant.

I have done so...... but a few attention seeking cowards not gonna implicate the entire idea.

The entire idea explains nothing. People explain things. It's called interpretation.The entire idea has never been validated nor tested, but that won't change anything.If the PRIESTS of evolution themselves believe it, it MUST be true, and WHO ARE WE to question it.

It's a faith belief defended by fanatics.

Any theory is like that..... are u aware how much any other theory like Theory of Radiation or the Theory of Propagation of Light, or Structure of Atoms was changed and corrected when new data came to be revealed?

Well, it's now been 150 years since Darwin wrote his evolution Bible. Isn't that long enough for some "proof" to show up? What you're doing is like the loonies who don't believe we landed on the moon. If we just wait long enough, will we find out they're right? No. Because they're not right. So, no matter how long you wait (and of course, in evolution, TIME and the waiting game are very important, aren't they?), the fact is that evolution is never going to be proven. Of course, you might want to wait millions of years, but unfortunately you won't be around then to know evolution was finally proven.

Well yes that happened during a lab experiment..... some basic subtances put together in a container and left alone for a long time under extreme conditions similar to early earth situations and volia there were some complex proteins or something.

Putting molecules in a flask requires a creator and designer, who creates and designs the experiment, sets all the parameters so that he gets the outcome he’s hoping for, starts the experiment, and ends it. The experiment did not create and run itself. It was created and run by an outside intelligence. That alone negates it as any sort of “proof” of evolution.

Even the defination of life is confusing due to the little buggers called viruses.

Virus are clearly non-living.

As opposed to someone teaching them? Even about how to cell divide?

Through the processes of mindless evolution.

Seemingly yes. But u missed trillions of intermediate steps. Also even most primitive of cells have digestive systems..... they are as old as life they seems, except for viruses or some similar kind.

You don't realize that it's way to complex to have just come about by random processes.There is no such mechanism that could have started it all, and increased information and complexity without an intelligent source.


I would repeat: Just like he figured out how to change some genes in some organism to make them immune against certain substances and microorganisms that was previously harming them.... he figured them out.

He? With no direction, purpose, or intelligence.It's just MAGICAL!

Also judging from your wordings.... ur looking for a God or something similar, saying how evolution figured that out or this out. Its like saying that a volcano knows where the weakest point in the crust is, so that it can move through it.

What does that have to do with how blind chance, mechanistic evolution produced the universe and all the marvelous diversity of life on earth?


Yet the genetic structure itself changes..... also Evolution is not science?

Information, such as that found in genetic material, cannot arise on its own, without a source, nor is it useful standing on its own, without a code, mode of transmission, mode of reception, and the machinery to make it useful.


And here is the typical retarded leap retards take to win the argument. Development of antibiotic resistance by bacteria only suggests that 'living things magically alter their genetic codes to better adapt to drastic situations'...... it does not suggest the shit ur shitting.

That is a typical evolutionist response.Just look up "antibiotic resistance is not evolution" and you'll find lots of articles on it.Certainly there must be something in there that would educate you. However, to make it simple, antibiotic resistance does not demonstrate evolution for the following reasons: First, it arises in genetic material that is ALREADY present. I can't say that enough, but evolutionists just don't seem to get it. Second, when an antibiotic is introduced, bacteria that are ALREADY PRESENT and have resistance flourish, where the normal flora is killed off. Third, when the antibiotic is removed, the normal flora return and the resistant strains die out. Now, if you can tell me how that demonstrates how bacteria arose from nothing and turned into bacteria, then we'll be getting somewhere.


Ohh really? U better rescearch too: , , etc

No sign of transitional fossils that indicate an evolution.Thanks to prove my point.

Many things fall flat with that kind of logic....... Even the sudden appearance or creation of the Earth from nowhere and nothing, by some unknown force, is not testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present.

Evolution is not testable.You cannot test whether a shrew turned into a human (which, in case you didn't know it, is one of the assumptions evolutionists make). You cannot test whether a rock really is 5 million years old. You cannot test whether an imaginary 'primordial soup' generated cells. Even if you could do that in a laboratory experiment, that would not prove it actually happened in nature.You cannot test whether clouds of interstellar gas really do collapse and form stars - intuition and direct observation seem to contradict that outright, in fact. You can only observe what you're able to, and then INTERPRET those observations accorting to your pre-determined paradigm. It's that pre-determined paradigm that needs to be tested, and the evolutionary one fails every time.

Nope: Reread Lenski Experiment.

Read the above.

Well provide the testable, repeatable, falsifiable, or observable in the present, substitute and prove it beyond doubt and everyone will trash The Theory of Evolution. But until .......

Unworthy of response, there's plenty of evidence to disprove evolution. You're not looking for any such thing, or you'd find it easily.But since you, on the other hand, produced testable evidence that particles made themselves and turned themselves into you by evolutionary magic!


Nope: we are going to study and research until everything makes sense and we reach enlightenment.

Evolution doesn't make sense.If evolution makes sense to you I can only say I feel sorry for you and hope you will think about it more.


Thats the logical thing to do, as u can not cut a tree with an water pistol.

Like the theory of evolution explains nothing.

Basic logic suggests, that strange light = source of light which may or may not be a flying saucer..... it is never strange light = flying saucer....... their logic is flawed.

Faith belief

Well your presumption is wrong at the root: Astrology is used by some people to PREDICT the future, they do not guide the world rather the world is seemingly reflected in them. Plus this is debatable since there IS some instances of successful predictions...... so there may or may not be shred of truth in them, so let us observe and come to a conclusion .... and current conclusion is that its no more accurate than palm reading.

When it comes to evolution, there is neither logical, reasonable, nor scientific data to support any of it, so my faith belief is nothing short of blind fanaticism. I WANT to believe it, so that's why I do. Just like flying saucers, planet-forming stardust, astrology, and all the other kooky things we choose to believe with no rational reason for doing so.

Theories are supposed to explain the data, so yes it has to explain everything. Also scientists dont create fairy tales, people does.... scientists come to conclusion form data.

The point of science is to investigate what is. Not to invent myths that do nothing to explain where "what is" came from. Science invents rockets. Science Fiction invents evolution. Science would not exist if it were not for faith. The scientist has faith that his hypothesis will hold water and turn out to be a demonstrable fact, otherwise he wouldn't bother. The fool has faith in something that he has neither seen, nor can see, and that can not be demonstrated from either an empirical or a logical standpoint. If you believe that nothing turned itself into everything when there is absolutely no factual nor logical way of proving such a thing, then you have blind faith.

Need supporting data to be accepted in a scientific manner.

All the available data refute evolution.

Same goes for Theory of Light, Structure of Atoms etc etc then?

Those are testable and observable (to a degree). Evolution is not. No one has ever seen an information-increasing mutation, which would be absolutely necessary for the theory of evolution to be validated, nor have they proposed any mechanism whereby the information contained in DNA and the DNA molecule itself could have arisen on their own, begun reproducing, and made every living thing in existence. That is STUPID and I hope you come to recognize it.

Majority of Biologists believe and works with The theory of Evolution.

I think most evolutionists know exactly what they're doing, and why, by manipulating facts and telling outright lies.

Well Theory of Evolution explains stuff, Evolution is an phenomenon.

Evolution is something old turning into something new, on its own with no outside influence, strictly by random chance. I just don’t see how believing such a thing is any more logical than believing some alien in the sky makes it happen.

Let people explain/interpret say Electro Magnetic Induction.

I don't understand "say Electro Magnetic Induction" but it doesn't really matter...

Ah I could say so much in response..... but I will just say: 'Mirror Mirror on the Wall'

Sooner or later, you're going to have to look in the mirror and admit that you have no defense for the indefensible!
 
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