Nagato and Gedo Mazo

[Midday]

There's been a lot of debate about if Nagato can control Gedo Mazo properly, I'll keep it short.

Madara states that you need both Uchiha and Senju power to use Gedo Mazo properly.

Spoiler

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It's said here that Senju and Uchiha powers is the power of the six paths, which Nagato has. Which can be interpreted as the

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or yin-yang element which is created by combining the senju and Uchiha powers,

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, because of the

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after the picture below.

Spoiler

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Conclusion:

Spoiler

He can control Gedo Mazo just fine.

 

[avenged sevenfold]

Oh okay well thats cool.

 

[Invsblphntm]

Ahhh, finally a good thread.

 

[JaffaTalk]

Obito is able to control it either, not so good though

 

[The Necromancer]

Without the power of 7 of the bijuu in it, it needed to supplemented its power with nagato's own chakra which is what emaciated him.

 

[the truth]

he should be able to

 

[MickNerks]

I believe he could. Thank you for making this thread. I wanted to make it, but I didnt want a certain someone coming on it and starting another war.lol

Thank you though.

 

[accept pain]

this means that nagato can also use izanagi.

 

[OnPoint]

I've seen your discussions about this issue and I have to say, you raise some good points. But, I disagree on two (general) accounts;

The eyes which Nagato possessed did not contain pure Uchiha DNA, since Madara's genetic make up was altered by Hashirama's cells (a modification which allowed him to awaken the Rinnegan). I would have to say he's lacking in this department, as the Rinnegan, unlike the Sharingan, does not represent that bloodline. Now, there are likely some remnants of the Uchiha clans DNA in his eyes. These remains, however, have been diluted/made impure by the presence of Shodai's cells, which means Nagato's control isn't as fluid or as polished at it could have been (as stated by Madara to Obito). That particular pair of Rinnegan contained Madara's blood; yet Madara's blood, at that time, was not purely Uchiha based.

Obito's Gedō binding is stronger than Nagato's. The only real explanation is a difference in genetic makeup. Obito's only excersing one of the eyes and in addition, he's had less time to master the Rinnegan's power. Why is his command over Gedō (and by extension, the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path) more assured? It can only be the purity or structure (with regards to Rikudō Sennin) of his DNA, which was said to directly influence how well the Mazō could be controlled.

Maybe Nagato's Uzumaki heritage means he's lacking in the Sage's Yang half. Or maybe he hasn't got enough of the Uchiha's Yin by virtue of possessing something which doesn't belong to either half alone. Either way, he's lacking in something.

 

[VongolaX]

Nagato has no uchiha blood in him, just a pair of uchiha eyes that grant him greater control of the gedo.

 

[Nous]

I believe he could. Thank you for making this thread. I wanted to make it, but I didnt want a certain someone coming on it and starting another war.lol

Thank you though.

Just asking, was that certain someone me?

@OP

If this is a response to

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, then that is pretty lame - was this to get away from KidGamer65 and Noddy from debating with you? If so, sad. However, I'm not about bashing and I'll prove you wrong through this reply.

In this scan [

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] we can see that the Uchiha + Senju = Six Paths - she wasn't referring to the Six Paths of Pain technique, she was referring to the Rikudo Sennin otherwise known as the Sage of Six Paths.

In this scan we see that Madara states you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Rikudo Sennin. Control - this means you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Gedo Mazo but Nagato lacks the latter. He doesn't even possess Pure Senju Cells either.

This is why here [

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] Zetsu only states that Nagato can summon the Gedo Mazo. Madara earlier said that even if Obito doesn't awaken the Rinnegan, he can still control the Gedo Mazo. This implies that the Rinnegan alone is essential to summoning the beast while Senju + Uchiha Cells (which Nagato lacks) are essential to proficient control of the Ten Tails Vessel.

This also explains why Danzo couldn't produce a perfect Izanagi - he lacked sufficient Uchiha Cells. Why? Because Dojutsu do not contain the cells of a clan [

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] Here you can tell Konan and Tobi were talking about the Rikudo - not the Six Paths technique. [

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]

This is why you possess a statement of complete falsity.

 

[KidGamer65]

Just asking, was that certain someone me?

@OP

If this is a response to

You must be registered for see links

, then that is pretty lame - was this to get away from KidGamer65 and Noddy from debating with you? If so, sad. However, I'm not about bashing and I'll prove you wrong through this reply.

In this scan [

You must be registered for see links

] we can see that the Uchiha + Senju = Six Paths - she wasn't referring to the Six Paths of Pain technique, she was referring to the Rikudo Sennin otherwise known as the Sage of Six Paths.

In this scan we see that Madara states you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Rikudo Sennin. Control - this means you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Gedo Mazo but Nagato lacks the latter. He doesn't even possess Pure Senju Cells either.

This is why here [

You must be registered for see links

] Zetsu only states that Nagato can summon the Gedo Mazo. Madara earlier said that even if Obito doesn't awaken the Rinnegan, he can still control the Gedo Mazo. This implies that the Rinnegan alone is essential to summoning the beast while Senju + Uchiha Cells (which Nagato lacks) are essential to proficient control of the Ten Tails Vessel.

This also explains why Danzo couldn't produce a perfect Izanagi - he lacked sufficient Uchiha Cells. Why? Because Dojutsu do not contain the cells of a clan [

You must be registered for see links

] Here you can tell Konan and Tobi were talking about the Rikudo - not the Six Paths technique. [

You must be registered for see links

]

This is why you possess a statement of complete falsity.

It was me. I'm sure of it.

Anyway nice post, except for 1 thing.

-Danzo wasn't able to control Hashirama's power, that's why Izanagi was incomplete.

-Also, a response you will probably end up getting from someone in this thread is: "Nagato has Madara's eyes so he has Uchiha DNA" Be prepared to counter that statement.

 

[Nous]

It was me. I'm sure of it.

Anyway nice post, except for 1 thing.

-Danzo wasn't able to control Hashirama's power, that's why Izanagi was incomplete.

-Also, a response you will probably end up getting from someone in this thread is: "Nagato has Madara's eyes so he has Uchiha DNA" Be prepared to counter that statement.

Yeah that logic doesn't work as that means that Kakashi has Uchiha DNA and we can tell from his subpar - average chakra levels; he doesn't possess the legendary chakra of the Uchiha.

 

[Midday]

Just asking, was that certain someone me?

@OP

If this is a response to

You must be registered for see links

, then that is pretty lame - was this to get away from KidGamer65 and Noddy from debating with you? If so, sad. However, I'm not about bashing and I'll prove you wrong through this reply.

I didn't make this thread as a response or an attempt to dodge a debate, I made it because I've wanted to make it for a while and I thought it was a good time as the topic is being discussed a lot at the current time. I've been involved in a lot of debates in this topic before you made your thread.

In this scan [

You must be registered for see links

] we can see that the Uchiha + Senju = Six Paths - she wasn't referring to the Six Paths of Pain technique, she was referring to the Rikudo Sennin otherwise known as the Sage of Six Paths.

I'm aware, I acknowledge it in the opening statement. The next page was referring to the sages yin-yang release, which is from the combination of Uchiha and Senju power, Nagato has that release.

In this scan we see that Madara states you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Rikudo Sennin. Control - this means you need Senju + Uchiha Cells to control the Gedo Mazo but Nagato lacks the latter. He doesn't even possess Pure Senju Cells either.

It's always been Senju and Uchiha power not cells. I'll add why he posses Uchiha cells anyway later in this post. Senju and Uzumaki seem interchangeable in this series, Madara also said he was of Senju lineage, I also believe it's not just senju/Uchiha it's more the unison between both the elder and younger sons powers.

This is why here [

You must be registered for see links

] Zetsu only states that Nagato can summon the Gedo Mazo. Madara earlier said that even if Obito doesn't awaken the Rinnegan, he can still control the Gedo Mazo. This implies that the Rinnegan alone is essential to summoning the beast while Senju + Uchiha Cells (which Nagato lacks) are essential to proficient control of the Ten Tails Vessel.

I know. But summoning it isn't relevant to whether or not it can be controlled properly.

This also explains why Danzo couldn't produce a perfect Izanagi - he lacked sufficient Uchiha Cells. Why? Because Dojutsu do not contain the cells of a clan [

You must be registered for see links

] Here you can tell Konan and Tobi were talking about the Rikudo - not the Six Paths technique. [

You must be registered for see links

]

He didn't lack Uchiha cells, I'll be getting to that soon.

This is why you possess a statement of complete falsity.

Ok.

It was me. I'm sure of it.

Anyway nice post, except for 1 thing.

-Danzo wasn't able to control Hashirama's power, that's why Izanagi was incomplete.

-Also, a response you will probably end up getting from someone in this thread is: "Nagato has Madara's eyes so he has Uchiha DNA" Be prepared to counter that statement.

For the whole Uchiha cells bit. It's a real world fact that eyes contain DNA/cells which has been acknowledged in the manga, Kabuto asked Obito for Shishui's eye which contained more than enough of his DNA to perform the edo tensei ritual, [

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]. I don't know why you continue to try and refute this point, KidGamer.

 

[KidGamer65]

I didn't make this thread as a response or an attempt to dodge a debate, I made it because I've wanted to make it for a while and I thought it was a good time as the topic is being discussed a lot at the current time. I've been involved in a lot of debates in this topic before you made your thread.



I'm aware, I acknowledge it in the opening statement.



It's always been Senju and Uchiha power not cells. I'll add why he posses Uchiha cells anyway later in this post. Senju and Uzumaki seem interchangeable in this series, Madara also said he was of Senju lineage, I also believe it's not just senju/Uchiha it's more the unison between both the elder and younger sons powers.



I know. But summoning it isn't relevant to whether or not it can be controlled properly.



He didn't lack Uchiha cells, I'll be getting to that soon.



Ok.



For the whole Uchiha cells bit. It's a real world fact that eyes contain DNA/cells which has been acknowledged in the manga, Kabuto asked Obito for Shishui's eye which contained more than enough of his DNA to perform the edo tensei ritual, [

You must be registered for see links

]. I don't know why you continue to try and refute this point, KidGamer.

How many times are you going to bring up this tired point despite Madara already showing that having the Rinnegan alone isn't enough to control the Gedo Mazo. If Nagato having Madara's DNA in his eyes meant he could control the Mazo then:

Why would Madara say that Rinnegan is needed to summon the Mazo and that Both powers are needed to control the Mazo if Rinnegan was the only thing needed? He never would have had to mention anything about the powers in his first sentence if Rinnegan was the only requirement.

Does Kakashi possess have Uchiha DNA in his body due to having Obito's Sharingan? Nope. Otherwise he wouldn't experience the negative effects of being a Sharingan holder who isn't an Uchiha.

 

[Midday]

Does Kakashi possess have Uchiha DNA in his body due to having Obito's Sharingan? Nope. Otherwise he wouldn't experience the negative effects of being a Sharingan holder who isn't an Uchiha.

Thought I forgot something. Yes Kakashi has Obito's DNA form the eye which contains his DNA, so he would have got an improvement in his spiritual energy and power of his chakra. Both aren't exactly noticeable.

It's not if it contains it does contain, stop arguing against a fact. Nowhere does it say that having DNA some exempts you from the costs of sharringan, also having some DNA is not the same as the real thing. Just like having some of Hashirama's DNA doesn't give you chakra levels as high as him or mokuton skill on the same level, just like Danzou and Obito.

 

[Nous]

I didn't make this thread as a response or an attempt to dodge a debate, I made it because I've wanted to make it for a while and I thought it was a good time as the topic is being discussed a lot at the current time. I've been involved in a lot of debates in this topic before you made your thread.



I'm aware, I acknowledge it in the opening statement. The next page was referring to the sages yin-yang release, which is from the combination of Uchiha and Senju power, Nagato has that release.



It's always been Senju and Uchiha power not cells. I'll add why he posses Uchiha cells anyway later in this post. Senju and Uzumaki seem interchangeable in this series, Madara also said he was of Senju lineage, I also believe it's not just senju/Uchiha it's more the unison between both the elder and younger sons powers.



I know. But summoning it isn't relevant to whether or not it can be controlled properly.



He didn't lack Uchiha cells, I'll be getting to that soon.



Ok.



For the whole Uchiha cells bit. It's a real world fact that eyes contain DNA/cells which has been acknowledged in the manga, Kabuto asked Obito for Shishui's eye which contained more than enough of his DNA to perform the edo tensei ritual, [

You must be registered for see links

]. I don't know why you continue to try and refute this point, KidGamer.

Thought I forgot something. Yes Kakashi has Obito's DNA form the eye which contains his DNA, so he would have got an improvement in his spiritual energy and power of his chakra. Both aren't exactly noticeable.

It's not if it contains it does contain, stop arguing against a fact. Nowhere does it say that having DNA some exempts you from the costs of sharringan, also having some DNA is not the same as the real thing. Just like having some of Hashirama's DNA doesn't give you chakra levels as high as him or mokuton skill on the same level, just like Danzou and Obito.

Now uh why was Nagato unable to efficiently control the Gedo Mazo?

 

[KidGamer65]

Thought I forgot something. Yes Kakashi has Obito's DNA form the eye which contains his DNA, so he would have got an improvement in his spiritual energy and power of his chakra. Both aren't exactly noticeable.

Nowhere does it say that having DNA some exempts you from the costs of sharringan, also having some DNA is not the same as the real thing. Just like having some of Hashirama's DNA doesn't give you chakra levels as high as him or mokuton skill on the same level, just like Danzou and Obito.

Itachi clearly told him that due to not possessing Uchiha's blood, he can't use the Sharingan as good as him.

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But according to you, he should possess Uchiha's Blood/DNA due to having Obito's Sharingan, so he should be able to use the eye as well as they can. But he can't.

Danzo implanted a bit of his DNA and he was able to maintain 10 Sharingans at a time, use Izanagi multiple times all without dying of too much chakra being spent. What ever told you that Hashirama's DNA was even supposed to give you chakra levels as high as his?

The Senju's trait inherited from the Sage is a strong life force and strong physical energy. Exactly what Danzo showcased.

So Kakashi having Obito's eye isn't enough for him to be exempt from the negative effects of being an outsider wielding the Sharingan. Yet, Nagato having Madara's eyes is enough for him to be able to control the Mazo? Your Double standard is clear here.

 

[Midday]

Itachi clearly told him that due to not possessing Uchiha's blood, he can't use the Sharingan as good as him.

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But according to you, he should possess Uchiha's Blood/DNA due to having Obito's Sharingan, so he should be able to use the eye as well as they can. But he can't.

Danzo implanted a bit of his DNA and he was able to maintain 10 Sharingans at a time, use Izanagi multiple times all without dying of too much chakra being spent. What ever told you that Hashirama's DNA was even supposed to give you chakra levels as high as his?

The Senju's trait inherited from the Sage is a strong life force and strong physical energy. Exactly what Danzo showcased.

So Kakashi having Obito's eye isn't enough for him to be exempt from the negative effects of being an outsider wielding the Sharingan. Yet, Nagato having Madara's eyes is enough for him to be able to control the Mazo? Your Double standard is clear here.

It's the same old. Do eyes contain DNA? Yes. Has eyes containing DNA been acknowledged in the manga? Yes. Stop debating otherwise.

Your Itachi arguement would hold if Itachi said having DNA allows protection from Tsukyomi but he didn't, he said having the same blood essentially being an Uchiha gives protection. Having DNA doesn't make Kakashi and Uchiha just like it doesn't make Obito a Senju.

Now uh why was Nagato unable to efficiently control the Gedo Mazo?

When was he unable to control it. He used it in battle once, he controlled it by making it attack the soldiers and then synced with it to perform soul dragon which needed his chakra, which you even said in your thread. He was controlling it every time he used it to seal tailed beasts.

 

[KidGamer65]

Never said they didn't. Does it matter? Manga says it doesn't.

This isn't about Tsukuyomi. This about him being able to use the Sharingan as well as Uchiha by having their blood. In fact Tsukuyomi was never even in my post at all. Mentioning it is moot as only a Sharingan wielder with the same blood as Itachi (Sasuke) can break it once hit. Eyes contain blood yet Itachi still said that Kakashi can't use the Sharingan as well as an Uchiha. What does that tell you? That having the eyes doesn't matter. Manga shows it. Deal with it.

Nagato having Madara's eyes means he can use the Mazo properly due to having Uchiha DNA but Kakashi having Obito's eye (Which contains the original wielder, Obito's, Blood and DNA) doesn't mean that he should be able to use the Sharingan as well as an Uchiha? You don't make any sense.