Misconception: Shisui awoke his mangekyuo BEFORE Obito

[NarutoKage2]

There seems to be a misconception that Obito and Kakashi awoke their mangekyous before Shisui. This is false and i intend to clear up the confusion.

Nicknames:

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First up, nicknames/famous titles given to shinobi from other countries/villages are ALWAYS during times of war. Some examples:

-the sannin were given their title during the 2nd shinobi world war while they fought Hanzo in the hidden rain
- the yellow flash title was given to Minato due to what he showed the world in the 3rd shinobi war.
- Sakumo Hatake had to have been given his title of the white fang during a war(possibly the 2nd sww) as he fought and killed Sasori's parents, and Suna and Konoha would not fight otherwise.

Now, when Killer Bee says this:

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How exactly did Killer Bee know all that?

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Some facts:
-we know that Bee and A were part of the strongest tag team and fought together in the 3rd shinobi world war
-we also know that there was no opportunity for Bee to find out after Naruto's birth, konoha and kumogakure never had any open conflict in those 16 years.


The answer is that Bee found out because Shisui fought him in the 3rd shinobi war, and he already had Mangekyuo at that point. The reason: His mastery of genjutsu was Mangekyuo based, so he could only get that rep with the MS.

Also:

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Getting into an opponent's mind and controlling them w.o them noticing, as Ao said. Again him fighting Shisui had to have been during the 3rd shinobi world war, and its obvious Shisui had his Mangekyou and used it to get a reputation that was known throughout the nations.

When Obito awakened his MS:

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Obito on the other hand would awaken his eyes after the end of that great war. This is because:

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Its stated that the 3rd shinobi world war ended in that panel, Kakashi would kill Rin after that.

Another proof:

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Obito was young when he attacked Konoha, but Shisui died just 6 years after that:

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He looks in his late twenties/early thirties there, at a time when Obito was exactly 20 years old(14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack plus 6 years till the massacre). Again making it more likely that since he died so soon, and people would remember his genjutsu for so long afterwards, that Shisui had to have had his mangekyuo for quite a few years , i.e before Obito awoke his at 13.

UPDATES:

Some Edits:

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Kagami was an adult during Tobirama's reign, was teammates with Hiruzen and was shown when he was selected as a HOKAGE. Meaning he himself had to have been at least a jounin, 20-25 years of age minimum. Years later, during the 3rd shinobi world war,his son Shisui would become famous for controlling people w/o them noticing, a mangekyuo tech. Also, being friends=/=being the same age. Naruto and Nagato became friends, hope you know they're not the same age

Note:

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There is a lot of speculation in this thread, but that's not all there is in it either. Explain:
-When would Ao ever have fought Shisui if not the 3rd shinobi world war?
-Danzo had the MS eye of Shisui. When Ao saw it on Danzo, he did'nt notice anything new or different about it. Meaning it was the same eye he went up against years ago, i.e a Mangekyuo sharingan
-How would Bee have known about Shisui and his illusion mastery? Again only answer is the 3rd war
-If its the 3rd war then how did Shisui become known as the 'strongest genjutsu user of the uchiha' w/o even having a Mangekyuo? That's quite a title to have, considering Uchiha have had the likes of Madara and Izuna before
-It was stated the 3rd shinobi world war ended at the end of Kakashi gaiden, before Rin got stabbed.
-Add all of that up.

Edit no 2

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Credit to Blaclord:

Shisui's Koto Amatsukami took 10 years to activate. The Uchiha massacre was stated to have occurred 7 years before part 1. In part 2 this became 10 years. The interesting thing is that Itachi never had any time to test out this limitation of Shisui's Mangekyuo himself, since 10 years ago he could have at most used it once. Then after that he would just realize he can't use it again, no way he'd know about the 10 years limit, so he'd never entrust that eye to Naruto

Yet he did, so that can only mean one thing: Shisui told him, which now means:
Shisui would have HAD to have had his Mangekyuo for at least 10 + years!!! 6 years after the Kyuubi attack he died, a maximum of a year before that Obito awoke his MS, meaning Shisui had to have had his eyes AT LEAST 2-3 years before Obito.

 

[Imperfect]

Nice theory. But I must say, Obito's Sharingan isn't even on the same level. So it's worse by default...

 

[The Necromancer]

It's a lot of speculation based off of nicknames and battles we've never seen or heard about. I'm gonna say obito awakened his first. Shisui and Itachi were probably within 5 years of age, making shisui 11 at most when obito attacked the village.

 

[Invsblphntm]

Hey m8, have you ever thought that maybe Shisui's reputation was shown to B?

 

[SenseiMartian]

No, Obito had his Mangekyo when he attacked the village, while Shisui was roughly the same age as Itachi, who at that time would have been about 6. Also, you can be a good genjutsu user without MS.
So... no. It would not make sense that at 6 year old Shisui awakened the Mangekyo.

 

[NarutoKage2]

It's a lot of speculation based off of nicknames and battles we've never seen or heard about. I'm gonna say obito awakened his first. Shisui and Itachi were probably within 5 years of age, making shisui 11 at most when obito attacked the village.

Just look at Shisui before he dies. That's 6 years after the Kyuubi attack, he looks older than 17 you fool. Plus are you trying to say he fought with Ao and in the war when he was under 11? Try to be logical.

Hey m8, have you ever thought that maybe Shisui's reputation was shown to B?

I don't understand you.

 

[NarutoKage2]

No, Obito had his Mangekyo when he attacked the village, while Shisui was roughly the same age as Itachi, who at that time would have been about 6. Also, you can be a good genjutsu user without MS.
So... no. It would not make sense that at 6 year old Shisui awakened the Mangekyo.

Shisui was OLDER than Itachi. It was stated that he looked up to him as an older brother.

He was the son of Kagami, who was an adult during Tobirama's time. Tobirama's. How late would Kagami have had his kids for Shisui to be younger than Obito??

Just count all the years of Hiruzen's reign leading upto the 3rd shinobi world war.

P.S: Hiruzen even mentioned Shisui as being Kagami's son, making it very likely that he grew up and matured during the 3rd's reign, prior to the 4th being chosen ofc.

 

[The Necromancer]

Just look at Shisui before he dies. That's 6 years after the Kyuubi attack, he looks older than 17 you fool. Plus are you trying to say he fought with Ao and in the war when he was under 11? Try to be logical.


I don't understand you.

It's possible for either side. There are no concrete facts or a timetable. Nagato and Kakashi look the same age too, but nagato is much older than kakashi. Looks don't mean much for age in a manga.

 

[Draphsin]

You have no proof that shisui participated in the war.

Kakashi the copy ninja never participated in any wars :|

Just look at Shisui before he dies. That's 6 years after the Kyuubi attack, he looks older than 17 you fool. Plus are you trying to say he fought with Ao and in the war when he was under 11? Try to be logical.

Itachi looks older than 13 when he killed his clan and joined akatsuki

 

[Aertes]

Lots of speculation...
There's no evidence that Shishui fought on the 3rd shinobi war and many ninjas were know to other without having to participate in a war.
ANBU members were know for their proficiency as ninjas so it's only natural for ninjas from other villages to know about them.Just think about how many times bingo books were brought on the conversation in battles,most ninjas had info about other people.
It was stated that Itachi looked at Shisui as his older brother and they were best friends.I can;t imagine how they could be friends if Shisui was that much older than Itachi.
Plus Itachi was praised because he was considered one of the younger members of the clan that awoke his sharingan.
I don't think there is any possibility for Shisui to awake his MS before Obito.

 

[SenseiMartian]

Just look at Shisui before he dies. That's 6 years after the Kyuubi attack, he looks older than 17 you fool. Plus are you trying to say he fought with Ao and in the war when he was under 11? Try to be logical.
Shisui was OLDER than Itachi. It was stated that he looked up to him as an older brother.

He was the son of Kagami, who was an adult during Tobirama's time. Tobirama's. How late would Kagami have had his kids for Shisui to be younger than Obito??

Just count all the years of Hiruzen's reign leading upto the 3rd shinobi world war.

I mean, Itachi was said to have witnessed war firsthand at the age of 4. And as far as looks, it is not always a good determinant for age.
Tobirama died fairly young, Kagami was probably a chuunin at the time of Tobirama's death. Assuming he is the exact same age as Hiruzen, Kagami would have been mid to late 40's when he had Shisui. (Hiruzen died at 68-69, so subtract 6-7 years to backtrack to the Uchiha Massacre gets 61-63, subtract another 12 years and that's when Itachi was born, so I subtracted 4 more to estimate when Shisui was born)
If Itachi saw war at 4, it is very possible that Kagami had Shisui at 45-52.

 

[BlacLord™]

Even though we don't know how old Shisui was when he activated his MS, it's sensible to presume he would've been around Itachi's age. Based on the idea of Shisui being 12-13, Obito was 15 when he attacked the village, and Sasuke was a baby, which would make Itachi 5 years old, so Shisui would have to be at least 10 years older than Itachi to be close enough to activate his MS before Obito, which doesn't seem likely as that would make Shisui 23 years old, older than Tekka Uchiha when Shisui only looked like a teenager.

Still, Shisui did seem to know it took a decade to use Kotoamatsukami and if he was 23, he would have time to work that out.

 

[SenseiMartian]

Still, Shisui did seem to know it took a decade to use Kotoamatsukami and if he was 23, he would have time to work that out.

This could be Itachi's observation, as he is the one who said it and held the eye for about that time, but you do bring up good points.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Please see the edits, everyone.

 

[Avonomemi]

So much math wow *dripping*

 

[The Necromancer]

Please see the edits, everyone.

Again. Not disagreeing, but Shinobi fight outside of war all the time. It's their job. Even between countries, battles are fought over basic contracts.

 

[NarutoKage2]

It's possible for either side. There are no concrete facts or a timetable. Nagato and Kakashi look the same age too, but nagato is much older than kakashi. Looks don't mean much for age in a manga.

But there are other points that make it a distinct possibility, even a likely one.

You have no proof that shisui participated in the war.

Kakashi the copy ninja never participated in any wars :|



Itachi looks older than 13 when he killed his clan and joined akatsuki

Right, i guess you never read Kakashi gaiden. *facepalm*

Lots of speculation...
There's no evidence that Shishui fought on the 3rd shinobi war and many ninjas were know to other without having to participate in a war.
ANBU members were know for their proficiency as ninjas so it's only natural for ninjas from other villages to know about them.Just think about how many times bingo books were brought on the conversation in battles,most ninjas had info about other people.
It was stated that Itachi looked at Shisui as his older brother and they were best friends.I can;t imagine how they could be friends if Shisui was that much older than Itachi.
Plus Itachi was praised because he was considered one of the younger members of the clan that awoke his sharingan.
I don't think there is any possibility for Shisui to awake his MS before Obito.

It would be a disaster for a village to have some of its most outstanding shinobi and their abilities known to other villages. Look at what happened when the mist and kumo attempted to get the byakugan. You think Danzo/Hiruzen would have let intel like that out?
Well you should learn to use your imagination, then. Or just look at Naruto and Nagato's friendship and the age difference.

I mean, Itachi was said to have witnessed war firsthand at the age of 4. And as far as looks, it is not always a good determinant for age.
Tobirama died fairly young, Kagami was probably a chuunin at the time of Tobirama's death. Assuming he is the exact same age as Hiruzen, Kagami would have been mid to late 40's when he had Shisui. (Hiruzen died at 68-69, so subtract 6-7 years to backtrack to the Uchiha Massacre gets 61-63, subtract another 12 years and that's when Itachi was born, so I subtracted 4 more to estimate when Shisui was born)
If Itachi saw war at 4, it is very possible that Kagami had Shisui at 45-52.

That's laughable. He was teammates with Hiruzen, who just got promoted to HOKAGE. He had to have been a jounin since Konoha was'nt dumb enough to send fodders on a mission against master bounty nins. No proof for 40s, its far more likely he had him in his 20s, like Minato was mid twenties when he had Naruto. Giving Shisui more than enough time to mature and develop his MS some years before Obito.

Even though we don't know how old Shisui was when he activated his MS, it's sensible to presume he would've been around Itachi's age. Based on the idea of Shisui being 12-13, Obito was 15 when he attacked the village, and Sasuke was a baby, which would make Itachi 5 years old, so Shisui would have to be at least 10 years older than Itachi to be close enough to activate his MS before Obito, which doesn't seem likely as that would make Shisui 23 years old, older than Tekka Uchiha when Shisui only looked like a teenager.

Still, Shisui did seem to know it took a decade to use Kotoamatsukami and if he was 23, he would have time to work that out.

That's a very good point, and i'll add it to the OP. Its especially a good point as from the time that Shisui gave his eyes to Itachi, Sasuke was 6. 10 years later when Sasuke was 16, Itachi gave Naruto the eyes, so he could'nt possibly have tested the time limit himself.

This could be Itachi's observation, as he is the one who said it and held the eye for about that time, but you do bring up good points.

See above.

 

[Draphsin]

Right, i guess you never read Kakashi gaiden. *facepalm*

Missing the point

You dont need to participate in wars to receive a nickname....

 

[NarutoKage2]

More edits done.

 

[The Necromancer]

But there are other points that make it a distinct possibility, even a likely one.

Right, i guess you never read Kakashi gaiden. *facepalm*


That's a very good point, and i'll add it to the OP. Its especially a good point as from the time that Shisui gave his eyes to Itachi, Sasuke was 6. 10 years later when Sasuke was 16, Itachi gave Naruto the eyes, so he couldn't possibly have tested the time limit himself.

It is a valid point, however plenty of characters know the subtle nuances of their jutsu that they shouldn't. How did kakashi know kamui was named kamui? How did obito know susano'o was a rare unlock for the mangekyou if 2 of the 4 users had it.

Besides this, the fact that headquarters had info on obito's 5 limit kamui usage could mean that these things were recorded somewhere (possibly on the uchiha tablet) for anyone who potentially unlocked them.

Missing the point

You dont need to participate in wars to receive a nickname....

No you were right. Kakashi earned the moniker "the copy ninja" or "kakashi of the sharingan" outside of the war, as he had the sharingan a solid 5 hours at the closing of the war. Your point was a valid one.