TheSages456
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this thread is ridiculous. nagato gets one-shotted by this:
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Nagato > Ems Madara (Proof)
- Thread starter Nagato and Pain
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KidGamer65
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This isn't about being open minded. This is about people using a tactic that goes against the function of the technique itself. BT's ability has already been shown and he can't hold stuff down using it so that point is moot. Don't compare the nail to Susanoo as the nail isn't covered by the piece of wood like Susanoo is covering the user.
He doesn't need to spam it first of all. Second of all its a sword, you can swing it just like anyone else swings a normal sword. People act like TBB, FRS, and Yasaka Magatama was needed to destroy CT's core at its early stage when they have no proof at all. Doesn't matter as Kyuubi's TBB can destroy it in its early stages anyways.
How many times am I going to have to say this. The dogs can't even harm him at all so what difference are they going to make whether they are active or not. Gedo Mazo is still vastly inferior to PS or Kyuubi and PS armored Kyuubi when you look at their strength displayed in the manga. Gedo Mazo's strongest attack isn't even scratching Susanoo let along hurting it.
Not sure if srs..Bijuu haven't been shown to have souls. They are simply beasts made of pure chakra. When you can show me evidence or proof that Bijuu have souls then I will agree. (But you can't since it doesn't exist)
He was obviously talking about Senju/Uchiha DNA. The same thing has been alluded to this whole manga and it was always meant as DNA. Hence him telling Obito that since half his body is made of Senju cells he can still control the Mazo.
No. Him having Madara's Rinnegan doesn't count as Uchiha DNA, don't know why you keep mentioning this despite manga showing otherwise. Kakashi experiences more strain from using the Sharingan due to his lack of Uchiha DNA. Are you going to tell me Kakashi has Uchiha DNA do to having Obito's eye despite manga saying otherwise? Not to mention manga has already shown that the DNA needs to be infused into your body to make a difference. Danzo, Obito and Madara all infused the DNA into their bodies. Rinnegan doesn't count as Uchiha power either as Rinnegan is the power of Senju AND Uchiha. So nope. Nagato can't control the Mazo correctly.
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Percy Jackson
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madara will stomp nagato with the help of nine tail.
this is ridiculouse, chibaku tensei can even can't hold kurama's 8tail physical strength.
Let alone Perfect who can destroy mountain with a shockwave. If PS was able to cut 5 mountains, So chibaku tensei with the size of 5 mountains won't make a diff.
If nagato try to pull madara it should be advantage for madara, cuz he can use normal susano as protection or substitute and then he'll give nagato a genjutsu. The next thing nagato know after genjutsu is he in the otherworld. Nagato is not immune to genjutsu otherwise why did 3pain lose to J-man?
this is ridiculouse, chibaku tensei can even can't hold kurama's 8tail physical strength.
Let alone Perfect who can destroy mountain with a shockwave. If PS was able to cut 5 mountains, So chibaku tensei with the size of 5 mountains won't make a diff.
If nagato try to pull madara it should be advantage for madara, cuz he can use normal susano as protection or substitute and then he'll give nagato a genjutsu. The next thing nagato know after genjutsu is he in the otherworld. Nagato is not immune to genjutsu otherwise why did 3pain lose to J-man?
It's about Pein being able to isolate and control one object even though it was partially covered in a piece of wood. You're going to have to explain how the wood was untouched even though it makes sense that the wood would be pulled as well as nothing held it down.
If that's the case how was Madara able to pull a meteor even though he was in sussanoo? He would be pulling the susanoo as well. Also there's the ozone layer between the bansho tennin and meteor.
I know you can move a sword freely but you're asking me for evidence when you have none to say he can spam the shockwave. Kyuubi's tbb can work.
The dogs are going to force Madara to stay in susanoo which is chakra taxing, there's definitely a limit to it. Minato's frog summon can't scratch the kyuubi but was still able to do something. As they're all around the same size the mazo can pin either of the two down, whilst Nagato can use petra path.
I'm not sure if you're seriously either. Animals in the series haven't shown souls but it's safe to assume they also have one. The tailed beasts are living chakra beasts, living seems like the thing that decides if they got a soul. But saying you have no proof they don't have a soul works the other way around as well. Prove they don't have one which you can't.
No. He's obviously talking about what he's talking about which are the powers. Which is also said in the m
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.Where does it say having their eyes doesn't count it says no where you need x amount of DNAfor it to count. Nearly every single cell in the body contains DNA, the eye being an organ made up of cells have Madara's dna present. Nagato was brought back from the dead as an edo with Madara's eyes, the technique recognised it as his making it that Nagato's body accepted the transplanted eyes making that dna now part of him.
Kakashi experiences more strain from the sharringan because he doesn't have an Uchiha body, I don't know where you're getting DNA from.
Obito and Madara have senju dna implanted into them not the other way around. It's most likely different the other way around, if a senju wanted Uchiha powers they would just go for their eyes instead of putting their face on their chest like Madara.
Uchiha power = power in the eyes(sages eyes), Senju power = power in the body(sages body). You saying the rinnengan is a senju thing as well doesn't make it true.
Conclusion Nagato has both powers and can control the mazo.
Stop this, Midday. The power of the Uchiha are not only their eyes but their strong Chakra and spiritual energy. One who possesses the Sharingan isn't automatically an Uchiha as he still lacks the Kekkei Genkai, so the blood of an Uchiha that makes him out to be one. So it was stated by Itachi, that though Kakashi possesses the Sharingan, he still doesn't have any of their blood, for which reason he fell for Tsukuyomi though possessing the Sharingan. Itachi further said, though having the Sharingan, Kakashi is not an Uchiha. Thus, Nagato has implanted eyes but still isn't a part Uchiha.
Actually, the Rinnegan is both the power of Uchiha and Senju, and yet Madara said that one who will only have the Rinnegan but lack Uchiha and Senju DNA, will not be able to control the Gedo Mazo properly. How is this explained, if the eyes automatically include Uchiha DNA? As Madara said, that Obito could use the Gedo Mazo even without the Rinnegan as having Senju cells, it is indeed meant that the power lies within the DNA, the bloodline, the Kekkei Genkai.
I think you were already aware of these facts, but you still want to keep protecting Nagato. Where facts end, fanboyism starts, doesn't it? mhm
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KidGamer65
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The end of the nail is exposed at the end so he can pull it out using BT just like anyone would use a tool to pull the nail out. Susanoo is covering the user completely.
Lmao, he was using his Susanoo to amplify it so of course it would be pulled towards his Susanoo. Not to mention it still isn't 100% whether he actually used BT to pull those meteors down.
He doesn't need to spam it.
Dogs aren't forcing him to stay in Susanoo as he will be in it regardless. Gamabunta was only able to be of use due to the Food Cart Destroyer which Kyuubi couldn't evade or counter since it is near instant.
Are we reading a different manga here or what?
The Mazo is only a little bit taller than Full Hachibi Bee who is around the same size as BM Naruto.
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100% Kyuubi is much bigger than BM Naruto thus he is much bigger than the Mazo.
PS towers above the Mazo.
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Naruto's clone and Kakashi compared to Kurama Naruto and Bee who are only a little bit smaller than the Mazo.
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Gokage compared to PS as all of them are around the same height as Naruto and Kakashi (bar Onoki)
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They are no where near the same size so the Mazo isn't pinning either of them down before it gets annihilated by sword slashes or a TBB.
Bijuu aren't animals first of all so that's a null comparison. Bijuu are made of 100% pure chakra hence RDS sealing half of the Kyuubi's chakra and not its soul even though the jutsu seals souls not chakra. Thus Bijuu don't have souls. Them being alive is hardly evidence of them having souls.
If you've been reading the manga this whole time you would know that powers refer to their blood/DNA. Your inability to correctly comprehend the manga doesn't make this any less true then it is.
He was obviously talking about Senju/Uchiha DNA. The same thing has been alluded to this whole manga and it was always meant as DNA. Hence him telling Obito that since half his body is made of Senju cells he can still control the Mazo. I guess he decided to mention Uchiha and Senju power being necessary to control then went on to say since Obito has Senju cells he can control the Mazo. Obvious that cells and power in his sentence were the same thing. Anyone with basic reading comprehension and a good understanding of the manga should know that DNA is the power
Kakashi experiencing strain shows that having DNA in their eye doesn't count. Inb4 you say Uchiha body not blood/DNA.
Edo Tensei revives you with the abilities you had in life. Nagato had the Rinnegan so he was revived with the Rinnegan. Its as simply as that.
Why do you think they say Uchiha body. Use your head a little. The reason why he can't use Sharingan is because he isn't an Uchiha. What differentiates Uchiha from any other family? Obviously blood/DNAnot their body. Sharingan=Bloodline trait.
That is exactly what I just said.
Go re-read the manga. Manga already stated that Rinnegan=Uchiha+Senju. What you have to add on to it means nothing as it is simply an opinion that has been shown to be wrong.
Bold sounds just plain foolish if you've been reading the correct manga. Now you're saying Rinnegan=Uchiha power despite them needing Senju DNA to get it? Do you know how dumb that sounds.
Nope. Nagato can't control the Mazo. Manga disagrees with you.
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KidGamer65
Neither are much bigger than the Mazo. A
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I haven't said Nagato was an Uchiha or part Uchiha, the first paragraph I agree with except Kakashi has the Uchiha kekkai genkai, the sharringan.
I've said that he has Uchiha dna through the eyes that were Madara's. Kabuto stated that Danzo's eye(Shishui's)
For a nail to be pulled out of wood something has to hold the wood down. Deva path only used his powers and nothing to hold the wood down so it had to be because of his powers that kept the wood in place.
Bansho tennin comes from the user, Susanoo is inbtween him and the meteor yet the susanoo wasn't pulled in.
Madara has no permanent solution to the dogs, I'd like to see how well he does against them without susanoo protecting him. Gedo Mazo's also fast enough to climb out of that mountain technique and move across a battlefield in the time it takes for Tobi to compliment Shikamaru.
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to
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.Here are the calcs.
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Neither are much bigger than the Mazo. A
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can knock either of the two over.No proof either way only opinions here if they have a soul.
Their power refers to their power, which is all Madara stated was a requirement. If you're still doubting eyes contain DNA
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as he's able to get Shisui's DNA from Danzo's single eye.Uchiha's have powerful chakra and strong spiritual energy that make their body suitable for a sharringan which Kakashi doesn't have, not the DNA. Itachi said those with Uchiha blood, essentially an Uchiha so obviously the body.
Edo tensei wouldn't recognise Nagato's rinnengan if it wasn't part of him through his DNA which Kabuto uses in the
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Powerful chakra and strong spiritual energy.
As the rinnengan is a result of Uchiha and senju coming together means that it's got both their powers. Nagato has the rinnegan making him have both their powers allowing him to control the Mazo.
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I haven't said Nagato was an Uchiha or part Uchiha, the first paragraph I agree with except Kakashi has the Uchiha kekkai genkai, the sharringan.
I've said that he has Uchiha dna through the eyes that were Madara's. Kabuto stated that Danzo's eye(Shishui's)
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. If rinnegan didn't become part of his DNA edo tensei wouldn't be able to recognise that Nagato has the rinnengan even though Kabuto only takes a small portion of the body for their
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. There's no need for an explanation that eyes carry DNA it's just a fact. As for senju DNA and power, being of senju lineage he would already have that covered with his large chakra reserves and strong life force.
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...the Rinnegan is the result of possessing both the power of Uchiha and Senju. Those, who possess both powers (Kekkei Genkai), will awake this Dojutsu. Just as only those, who possess the bloodline (Kekkei Genkai) of the Uchiha, are allowed to awake the Sharingan. The Dojutsu itself does not possess the power of Uchiha and Senju, Kakashi lacked it and Madara said that even the Rinnegan is not enough to control the Gedo Mazo properly, if you lack both of these genes and simultaneously he said, that Obito could control the Mazou properly as half of his body consists out of Hashiramas cells/DNA, what in this case equals Senju power. Anything was stated. It is even stated, that Obitos Outer-Path (where Gedo Mazou is a part of) is by far stronger than Nagatos.
So, do you have facts proving, that Nagatos control over Gedo Mazo is as strong as Obitos? No? Im waiting.
Madara is superior to Nagato and that is for sure. Madara can even summon the Kyuubi and fully control it. So what about debating about Madara + Kyuubi vs. Nagato?
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KidGamer65
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No, its because the nail is exposed at its end that he can use gravity to pull it out. Just like a rope, it can wrap around the end since its exposed then proceed to pull it out. Nothing needs to be held down. Don't know why you are still hanging on to this example like it means anything, especially when a nail being stuck in a piece of wood is different from a user being encased inside Susanoo.
If he is using Susanoo to amplify his BT then its obviously going to come from his Susanoo and not himself.
He doesn't need a solution to the dogs. Once Nagato dies they disappear. Ok? The Mazo is fast? So what? Not gonna help him beat Susanoo. Not to mention that's Obito controlling it not Nagato (who can't control it as well as him)
All that showed is that unstabilized PS is as big as the Mazo...if those measurements are even correct. Scans show that PS towers over the Mazo. Scans show that BM Naruto is only a little bit smaller than the Mazo while PS is much bigger than them both. Showing me this when manga shows something else isn't helping you at all.
The fact that RDS ripped out chakra and not its soul is proof that it is 100% chakra.
No, it refers to their DNA hence him telling Obito that having Senju cells lets him fill a requirement of controlling the Mazo. Not to mention Nagato doesn't even have the power of Uchiha regardless.
That's obviously passed down with their blood/DNA just how the Senju's power is passed down through blood/DNA. Also I never said that eyes don't have DNA. It doesn't fill the requirement of having Uchiha DNA/Blood/Power what ever you want to call it. The fact that Kakashi (despite having Obito's eye) is prey to all the side effects of using a transplanted Sharingan without the Kekkei Genkai to match it shows that the eye is not enough.
No, Edo Tensei recognizes his Rinnegan because it is one of the abilities he had in life. Don't know where you are getting this stuff from when the manga already has its explanation.
Which is obviously passed down through blood/DNA.
You can't be serious.... Did you even read chapter 606? Rinnegan is the result of the person who awakens it having the power of Senju and Uchiha, Rinnegan itself doesn't contain their power so no Nagato doesn't have both their powers nor does he have Senju/Uchiha blood thus he can't control the Mazo properly.
Madara telling Obito that the Rinnegan alone isn't enough to control the Mazo. Now sit down and think for a bit. If Nagato having the Rinnegan allows him to clear the prerequisite of having Uchiha DNA why would Madara say the Rinnegan alone isn't enough to control the Mazo?
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Nagato and Pain
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Nagato still wins for the reasons i stated in the first post, as for kyuubi, mazo and summonings take care of it.
KidGamer65
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Your opening argument shown in your OP is quite pathetic. You put a bunch of obvious easy to counter moves and then said that Nagato can pull him out of Susanoo with BT despite manga facts stating otherwise.
Kyuubi can be armored with PS, it annihilates the Mazo and the summonings with little effort.
Madara wins. Come back with a real argument if you still oddly disagree.
Percy Jackson
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easy way to say nagato can't control G M is.. Obito got portion of hashirama's DNA (senju), why can't he have his own Rinnegan????? Rinnegan = uchia + senju. That's the secret formula to obtain rinnegan.
Well, the ans is...It's because he got a very small fraction of senju DNA. SAME gose for nagato but in nagato's case it's very-very small fraction of senju + uchia that's Y he can't even control G M.
If you disagree, can you show me a proof that he control GM for a fight?
That's Y it's a suicide to nagato summon a G M.
In other words.. G M dose't take a role in this part.
Well, the ans is...It's because he got a very small fraction of senju DNA. SAME gose for nagato but in nagato's case it's very-very small fraction of senju + uchia that's Y he can't even control G M.
If you disagree, can you show me a proof that he control GM for a fight?
That's Y it's a suicide to nagato summon a G M.
In other words.. G M dose't take a role in this part.
Only those who possess the power of Uchiha and Senju are allowed to awake the Rinnegan. This however doesn't mean that everyone, who is in possession of both powers, will automatically awake the Rinnegan. Otherwise, many Uchiha would have awakened the Rinnegan, as Itachi talked about a time where a lot of Uchiha used Izanagi in their battles, to which they can only have access if they possess Senju DNA. Kabuto said that the Rinnegan is what awaits you beyond the Rinnegan. Madara also unlocked the Rinnegan shortl before his death. Maybe the level of Senju and Uchiha (inter alia the full mastery over the Sharingan) have to be at its maximum, in order to awake the Rinnegan.
But the fact sustains; the Rinnegan is just a weapon you can obtain if you possess the power of Uchiha and Senju. The Dojutsu itself is not Uchiha and Senju, Nagato didn't show any of the Uchiha and Senju powers, too.
But the fact sustains; the Rinnegan is just a weapon you can obtain if you possess the power of Uchiha and Senju. The Dojutsu itself is not Uchiha and Senju, Nagato didn't show any of the Uchiha and Senju powers, too.
Percy Jackson
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What i'm saying is the 1)formula for obtaining rinnegan is uchia + senju.
2)Formula to control G M is uchia + senju.
Obito got uchia + senju, why can't he have rinnegan?
The ans. is Because he got a very small senju cell, that's Y no rinnegan for him. But he still can control G M, but i bet it still not perfect.
Same gose for nagato BUT in nagato's case, He only got a VERY small senju DNA + VERY small uchia DNA.. That's Y he can't even control G M. like obito
2)Formula to control G M is uchia + senju.
Obito got uchia + senju, why can't he have rinnegan?
The ans. is Because he got a very small senju cell, that's Y no rinnegan for him. But he still can control G M, but i bet it still not perfect.
Same gose for nagato BUT in nagato's case, He only got a VERY small senju DNA + VERY small uchia DNA.. That's Y he can't even control G M. like obito
KidGamer65
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You probably need a near death experience along with Senju/Uchiha DNA to get Rinnegan. Possibly EMS could be necessary.
Percy Jackson
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but madara seems sure obito can't obtain rinnegan..
Or maybe, madara said that because he got a bigger portion of senju DNA, and yet again he obtain it near his death.
So madara figures much smaller senju DNA can't awake rinnegan
Otherthen that, maybe you'r right.. it still wasn't cleared in manga...
Or maybe, madara said that because he got a bigger portion of senju DNA, and yet again he obtain it near his death.
So madara figures much smaller senju DNA can't awake rinnegan
Otherthen that, maybe you'r right.. it still wasn't cleared in manga...
theTobiramaSenju
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NagazuDead
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KidGamer65
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Madara>Nagato. Nagato can't even utilize the full power of the Rinnegan as it is only transplanted so don't use him as a benchmark for its power.