[VS] Kakashi Hatake(Izuna Kakashi Senju) vs RicardoA(Hiruzen Sarutobi)

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

This will be a debate between myself and RicardoA.

Location:Were Kakashi and Zabuza fought
Knowledge:Manga
Restrictions:Mangyko Sharingan and Kamui
This is current Kakashi vs Old Hiruzen
Judges:Icelerate,pateuvasiliu and ezequielosses
The first three people to comment will be judges

 

[RicardoA]

First debate like this, the training starts
I say Hiruzen wins.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

First debate like this, the training starts
I say Hiruzen wins.

Do you want to start off the debate?

 

[RicardoA]

Do you want to start off the debate?

I'm leaving in about 15 min, when i come back its better so we can go straight to the point with time. Meanwhile judges may appear.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Volunteering to judge.

 

[Wind Squid]

Hiruzen wins, blindfolded, IN SPACE

 

[Icelerate]

I'll judge but this an obvious stomp in Kakashi's favor

 

[EZQ]

Wtf? Restrict kamui or hiruzen gets roflstomped, how the heck is he gonna dodge it if he's pretty slow

Oh, kamui is restricted, oo this is gonna be goood , can i be judge?

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

Oh, kamui is restricted, oo this is gonna be goood , can i be judge?

Yeah your the final judge.

 

[RicardoA]

Since we already have 3 judges i can start.
So, this is current Kakashi whose stamina improved a lot as we seen during war which means he can last much longer in battle, however, when Hiruzen fought against Orochimaru he also had the 1st and 2nd Hokages has edos to defeat, the fact that this is a 1v1 makes it even. Along with Enma in his staff form i think only using Taijutsu is enough to keep Kakashi occupied. The only major problems for Hiruzen are th Lightning Release Shadow Clone and Lightning Transmission.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

Since we already have 3 judges i can start.
So, this is current Kakashi whose stamina improved a lot as we seen during war which means he can last much longer in battle, however, when Hiruzen fought against Orochimaru he also had the 1st and 2nd Hokages has edos to defeat, the fact that this is a 1v1 makes it even. Along with Enma in his staff form i think only using Taijutsu is enough to keep Kakashi occupied. The only major problems for Hiruzen are th Lightning Release Shadow Clone and Lightning Transmission.

Kakashi always starts off with a bushin to test his opponents and as Hiruzen doesn't possess a Dōjutsu and won't be able to tell the difference and would be engaging the clone in combat while the real Kakashi uses Lightning Beast Running Technique to chase Hiruzen and once the beast stuns Hiruzen this would give Kakashi time to attack Hiruzen with a Raikiri. Also since this location is near water Kakashi has the advantage here as he can drown Hiruzen with the Water Release:Great Waterfall jutsu

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Also Kakashi has greater hand seal speed compared to Hiruzen and can pull off his jutsu much quicker than Hiruzen also Kakashi has the elemental advantage here as Suiton>Katon and Raiton>Doton and can counter Hiruzen's Katons with his Water Style:Water Wall Jutsu or use Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique to overpower Hiruzen's katons also Kakashi can rip through Hiruzen's Doton wall with Raikiri or Lightning Transmission.

Kakashi can also put Hiruzen under Genjutsu:Sharingan if Hiruzen looks directly into his eyes and can temporarily paralyze him and then Kakashi can go in for the kill with a Raikiri. Also Kakashi can surprise attack Hiruzen from underground using one of his clones as a decoy then attacks Hiruzen with a kunai from underground

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Also Kakashi has superior speed compared to Hiruzen and has 4.5 in Taijutsu and would be able to keep up with Hiruzen in Taijutsu also Kakashi's sharingan would be predicting Hiruzen's movements and with Kakashi's strategic mind he can quickly formulate a plan to takedown Hiruzen.

Also Kakashi's rival is Gai who specializes in Taijutsu and Kakashi can use his superior speed to cause a decoy like he did against pain using his Kunai to blind Hiruzen

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and while Hiruzen is searching for Kakashi because of Kakashi's Sharingan he will be able to see Hiruzena and finish him with a Raikiri or Lightning Transmission.

 

[EZQ]

Nice debate until now, keep on with this!

 

[RicardoA]

Kakashi always starts off with a bushin to test his opponents and as Hiruzen doesn't possess a Dōjutsu and won't be able to tell the difference and would be engaging the clone in combat while the real Kakashi uses Lightning Beast Running Technique to chase Hiruzen and once the beast stuns Hiruzen this would give Kakashi time to attack Hiruzen with a Raikiri. Also since this location is near water Kakashi has the advantage here as he can drown Hiruzen with the Water Release:Great Waterfall jutsu

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Also Kakashi has greater hand seal speed compared to Hiruzen and can pull off his jutsu much quicker than Hiruzen also Kakashi has the elemental advantage here as Suiton>Katon and Raiton>Doton and can counter Hiruzen's Katons with his Water Style:Water Wall Jutsu or use Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique to overpower Hiruzen's katons also Kakashi can rip through Hiruzen's Doton wall with Raikiri or Lightning Transmission.

Kakashi can also put Hiruzen under Genjutsu:Sharingan if Hiruzen looks directly into his eyes and can temporarily paralyze him and then Kakashi can go in for the kill with a Raikiri. Also Kakashi can surprise attack Hiruzen from underground using one of his clones as a decoy then attacks Hiruzen with a kunai from underground

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Also Kakashi has superior speed compared to Hiruzen and has 4.5 in Taijutsu and would be able to keep up with Hiruzen in Taijutsu also Kakashi's sharingan would be predicting Hiruzen's movements and with Kakashi's strategic mind he can quickly formulate a plan to takedown Hiruzen.

Also Kakashi's rival is Gai who specializes in Taijutsu and Kakashi can use his superior speed to cause a decoy like he did against pain using his Kunai to blind Hiruzen

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and while Hiruzen is searching for Kakashi because of Kakashi's Sharingan he will be able to see Hiruzena and finish him with a Raikiri or Lightning Transmission.

Hiruzen probably knows about Kakashi's use of clones, he used to be part of Anbu so he must have intel on him, he will surely be prepared. His acute nose can be useful to smell the real one behind the trees, he doesn't need to see him:

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He can attack the clone mid-distance with this:

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As for the Water Release:Great Waterfall jutsu, Doton > Suiton, if this:

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could stop the 2nd's jutsu, i'm sure it can handle Kakashi's copy. Also when Hiruzen used the wall, the attack had already been launched so he can put it up quickly too, he has a 5 in hand seals.
I doubt Hiruzen will fall for genjutsu, he has a 5 and the only kage level shinobi being caught up in one are Oro (while being reckless) against Itachi (Sharingan + 5 in genjutsu) and A (while being caught by Susanoo's hand) against Madara (no need for explanation). Kakashi won't go underground if Hiruzen is constatly on his tail.
Oro and Kakashi share the same databook stats for speed and Hiruzen managed not only to keep up but overpowering him. Kakashi has a 4.5 in taijutsu while Hiruzen has 5 this makes him slightly superior in CQC, plus Enma can make surprise attacks by emerging from the staff.
Hiruzen as a 5 in intelligence, plus has years and years of experience he won't be fooled easily.
Everyone can use smoke bomb attached to kunais, that is standard ninja weaponry.
Finally, Hiruzen won't be fighting alone, Enma can cover for him, protect him from harm with Adamantine Prison wall or use the same fr capture.
Either way Kakashi won't escape from a draw due to Reaper Death Seal, Hiruzen can perfectly remove one soul completetly and has what it takes to catch him.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

Hiruzen probably knows about Kakashi's use of clones, he used to be part of Anbu so he must have intel on him, he will surely be prepared. His acute nose can be useful to smell the real one behind the trees, he doesn't need to see him:

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He can attack the clone mid-distance with this:

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.
As for the Water Release:Great Waterfall jutsu, Doton > Suiton, if this:

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could stop the 2nd's jutsu, i'm sure it can handle Kakashi's copy. Also when Hiruzen used the wall, the attack had already been launched so he can put it up quickly too, he has a 5 in hand seals.
I doubt Hiruzen will fall for genjutsu, he has a 5 and the only kage level shinobi being caught up in one are Oro (while being reckless) against Itachi (Sharingan + 5 in genjutsu) and A (while being caught by Susanoo's hand) against Madara (no need for explanation). Kakashi won't go underground if Hiruzen is constatly on his tail.
Oro and Kakashi share the same databook stats for speed and Hiruzen managed not only to keep up but overpowering him. Kakashi has a 4.5 in taijutsu while Hiruzen has 5 this makes him slightly superior in CQC, plus Enma can make surprise attacks by emerging from the staff.
Hiruzen as a 5 in intelligence, plus has years and years of experience he won't be fooled easily.
Everyone can use smoke bomb attached to kunais, that is standard ninja weaponry.
Finally, Hiruzen won't be fighting alone, Enma can cover for him, protect him from harm with Adamantine Prison wall or use the same fr capture.
Either way Kakashi won't escape from a draw due to Reaper Death Seal, Hiruzen can perfectly remove one soul completetly and has what it takes to catch him.

Kakashi can stop the shuriken clone jutsu with his Earth Style:Mud wall jutsu

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, and as Kakashi is faster than Hiruzen he can quickly use the Silent Killing technique to slit his throat. Hiruzen has got fast hand seals but his reaction times isn't very fast and Kakashi has displayed good speed earning a 4.5 in speed and also he can use his Lightning transmission to break Hiruzen's mud wall as his Lightning Transmission was powerful enough to tear through Tailed Beast's Chakra Arms with relative ease,

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. Also if Kakashi uses his Lightning Release Shadow Clone and Hiruzen defeats the clone in Taijutsu he will get electrocuted

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and even though Hiruzen has a good sense of smell Pain's Rinnegan which can see chakra didn't know it was clone until after the clone had been killed and after Hiruzen is electrocuted Kakashi and the real Kakashi using the Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique can come out from the ground and quickly hit Hiruzen with a Raikiri. If Hiruzen decides to make Enma use his Adamantine Prison Wall Kakashi can flow his Raiton chakra through the prison and as metal conducts electricity the electricity will flow through the prison electrocuting Enma and Hiruzen.
Kakashi also has a five in intelligence and can summon his ninken hounds to do Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique to hold Hiruzen down long enough for Kakashi to Raikiri him in the chest. Also Kakashi has more counters for Hiruzen's jutsu than Hiruzen does for Kakashi's as Hiruzen's Katon gets cancelled out by Kakashi's Suiton and his Doton gets cancelled out by Kakashi's Raiton. Also Kakashi's quick use of clones would hinder Hiruzen's death reaper seal as if Hiruzen decides to use it and Kakashi who usually uses Bushin Feints, Hiruzen would end up losing for sealing the clone and not the real Kakashi.

 

[Kages]

Nice debate. Hiruzen wins no diff.
If I were debating for Hiruzen I would end it in a millisecond. Lol

 

[RicardoA]

Kakashi can stop the shuriken clone jutsu with his Earth Style:Mud wall jutsu

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, and as Kakashi is faster than Hiruzen he can quickly use the Silent Killing technique to slit his throat. Hiruzen has got fast hand seals but his reaction times isn't very fast and Kakashi has displayed good speed earning a 4.5 in speed and also he can use his Lightning transmission to break Hiruzen's mud wall as his Lightning Transmission was powerful enough to tear through Tailed Beast's Chakra Arms with relative ease,

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. Also if Kakashi uses his Lightning Release Shadow Clone and Hiruzen defeats the clone in Taijutsu he will get electrocuted

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and even though Hiruzen has a good sense of smell Pain's Rinnegan which can see chakra didn't know it was clone until after the clone had been killed and after Hiruzen is electrocuted Kakashi and the real Kakashi using the Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique can come out from the ground and quickly hit Hiruzen with a Raikiri. If Hiruzen decides to make Enma use his Adamantine Prison Wall Kakashi can flow his Raiton chakra through the prison and as metal conducts electricity the electricity will flow through the prison electrocuting Enma and Hiruzen.
Kakashi also has a five in intelligence and can summon his ninken hounds to do Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique to hold Hiruzen down long enough for Kakashi to Raikiri him in the chest. Also Kakashi has more counters for Hiruzen's jutsu than Hiruzen does for Kakashi's as Hiruzen's Katon gets cancelled out by Kakashi's Suiton and his Doton gets cancelled out by Kakashi's Raiton. Also Kakashi's quick use of clones would hinder Hiruzen's death reaper seal as if Hiruzen decides to use it and Kakashi who usually uses Bushin Feints, Hiruzen would end up losing for sealing the clone and not the real Kakashi.

Sillent Killing isn't effective without a cover, something that hinders the opponent vision that's not something he can use here.
Lightning Transmission is avoidable since Hiruzen is very agile and will see the attack coming obviously since the attack is linear and will be cutting right trough the mud wall. While Kakashi uses that he is somewhat open to an attack, Hiruzen along with Enma can combo strike back from a safe distance.
Kakashi can't spam kage bunshin all the time, there's a limit, Hiruzen can do atleast two, he can use them in combat too and may eventually be caught in Hiruzen's place.
I doubt he attacks with a Raikiri from the ground, he possibly could have done that against Itachi but he didn't.
The staff's properties are not metallic in any way, its hardness is stated to be that of a diamond, so no one is electrocuted that way.
I don't see the dogs being of use here, Kakashi is the one to be tracked since he uses clones and hides and Enma is an excelent backup.
Can a clone be sealed? I'm not sure o.o
Concluding: Hiruzen tag teaming with Enma can overpower Kakashi in CQC, it becomes 2v1. Hiruzen can also deceive Kakashi with kage bunshin a couple times. Kakashi doesn't use bunshin all the time and Hiruzen as dozens of years of experiece he won't fall for that, he can keep searching for the real one using his nose.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

Sillent Killing isn't effective without a cover, something that hinders the opponent vision that's not something he can use here.
Lightning Transmission is avoidable since Hiruzen is very agile and will see the attack coming obviously since the attack is linear and will be cutting right trough the mud wall. While Kakashi uses that he is somewhat open to an attack, Hiruzen along with Enma can combo strike back from a safe distance.
Kakashi can't spam kage bunshin all the time, there's a limit, Hiruzen can do atleast two, he can use them in combat too and may eventually be caught in Hiruzen's place.
I doubt he attacks with a Raikiri from the ground, he possibly could have done that against Itachi but he didn't.
The staff's properties are not metallic in any way, its hardness is stated to be that of a diamond, so no one is electrocuted that way.
I don't see the dogs being of use here, Kakashi is the one to be tracked since he uses clones and hides and Enma is an excelent backup.
Can a clone be sealed? I'm not sure o.o
Concluding: Hiruzen tag teaming with Enma can overpower Kakashi in CQC, it becomes 2v1. Hiruzen can also deceive Kakashi with kage bunshin a couple times. Kakashi doesn't use bunshin all the time and Hiruzen as dozens of years of experiece he won't fall for that, he can keep searching for the real one using his nose.

Kakashi has a greater chakra reserve than Hiruzen as Hiruzen only had enough chakra to make two Kage Bushins while Kakashi even while he was running low on chakra was able to do the Multiple Shadow Clone Jutsu,

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he can use this to gang up on Hiruzen and Enma. Kakashi can use his Sharingan to find the real Hiruzen if he decides to use clones. Also Kakashi doesn't always have to come into CQC with Hiruzen as he can attack from distance with Jutsu such as Lightning Beast Running Jutsu then while Hiruzen dodges charge to him with a Raikiri. Also if Kakashi uses a Water Clone as a distraction and he performs Earth Release:Hiding in a mole jutsu, he can surprise attack Hiruzen from underground like so

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and stabbing him then. Also Hiruzen's old age affects him in battle as in his fight with Oro the max amount of clones he could make was two Kakashi's stamina has improved alot and he was able to fight against Hidan and Kakuzu for quite a while without showing signs of being fatigued and those two have good stamina and even if Enma and Hiruzen are causing problems for Kakashi he can outlast Hiruzen as because of his old age he doesn't have a great deal of stamina or chakra reserves which is an even bigger advantage for Kakashi. And as I have stated before Kakashi has counter's for Hiruzen's ninjutsu, Katon's get stopped by Suiton walls or Suiton: Daibakufu no Jutsu to cancel out the Katon and Kakashi has Raiton to break through Hiruzen's Doton wall. Or Kakashi can use his Lightning Release Shadow Clone and if the clone electrocutes Hiruzen the real Kakashi would be able to quickly Raikiri Hiruzen.

 

[RicardoA]

Kakashi has a greater chakra reserve than Hiruzen as Hiruzen only had enough chakra to make two Kage Bushins while Kakashi even while he was running low on chakra was able to do the Multiple Shadow Clone Jutsu,

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he can use this to gang up on Hiruzen and Enma. Kakashi can use his Sharingan to find the real Hiruzen if he decides to use clones. Also Kakashi doesn't always have to come into CQC with Hiruzen as he can attack from distance with Jutsu such as Lightning Beast Running Jutsu then while Hiruzen dodges charge to him with a Raikiri. Also if Kakashi uses a Water Clone as a distraction and he performs Earth Release:Hiding in a mole jutsu, he can surprise attack Hiruzen from underground like so

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and stabbing him then. Also Hiruzen's old age affects him in battle as in his fight with Oro the max amount of clones he could make was two Kakashi's stamina has improved alot and he was able to fight against Hidan and Kakuzu for quite a while without showing signs of being fatigued and those two have good stamina and even if Enma and Hiruzen are causing problems for Kakashi he can outlast Hiruzen as because of his old age he doesn't have a great deal of stamina or chakra reserves which is an even bigger advantage for Kakashi. And as I have stated before Kakashi has counter's for Hiruzen's ninjutsu, Katon's get stopped by Suiton walls or Suiton: Daibakufu no Jutsu to cancel out the Katon and Kakashi has Raiton to break through Hiruzen's Doton wall. Or Kakashi can use his Lightning Release Shadow Clone and if the clone electrocutes Hiruzen the real Kakashi would be able to quickly Raikiri Hiruzen.

The databook stats gives the same amount of stamina for both, although this may not necessarily be true when we analyse feats its also not a major concern for Hiruzen since he isn't fighting alone here. The Multiple Shadow Clone Jutsu you showed were only used to scare Gatou's gang, they were useless in battle because they barely had chakra. When that happened Kakashi was tired, but if he could use that move effectively he would train like Naruto did when learning Fuuton:Rasenshuriken, but the thing is he can't. All this to say he can't spam multiple useful clones, he uses two or three to test the opponent and goes to fight himself after. The Sharingan can't distinguish shadow clones from the original user its stated in the manga and anime.
Enma won't let him be caught from the ground, he can also surprise attack by emerging from the staff, he can cover for Hiruzen.
Hiruzen knows of his limitations that's why he will finish quickly or use Reaper Death Seal. A Hokage and veteran like him won't be wasting moves. He was able to fight against someone with bigger chackra reserves than him and two edo kages wich have a infinite chakra pool, i don't think chackra is a problem.
Its unknown how chakra taxing is Lightning Release Shadow Clone but Kakashi only used it once, and if he wastes that move with a Hiruzen's trick, he won't fall for that again, he has other ways to attack and see if there's other Kakashi around (the real one) through is nose.
Lastly, one note about Lightning Transmition. The attack was useful against the chakra arms because these covered somewhat a wide area, are tall and this works in a linear way, so no avoiding it for those arms. Against a single person or a small target its not effective and Hiruzen isn't stationary neither is Enma.

 

[Izuna Kakashi Senju]

The databook stats gives the same amount of stamina for both, although this may not necessarily be true when we analyse feats its also not a major concern for Hiruzen since he isn't fighting alone here. The Multiple Shadow Clone Jutsu you showed were only used to scare Gatou's gang, they were useless in battle because they barely had chakra. When that happened Kakashi was tired, but if he could use that move effectively he would train like Naruto did when learning Fuuton:Rasenshuriken, but the thing is he can't. All this to say he can't spam multiple useful clones, he uses two or three to test the opponent and goes to fight himself after. The Sharingan can't distinguish shadow clones from the original user its stated in the manga and anime.
Enma won't let him be caught from the ground, he can also surprise attack by emerging from the staff, he can cover for Hiruzen.
Hiruzen knows of his limitations that's why he will finish quickly or use Reaper Death Seal. A Hokage and veteran like him won't be wasting moves. He was able to fight against someone with bigger chackra reserves than him and two edo kages wich have a infinite chakra pool, i don't think chackra is a problem.
Its unknown how chakra taxing is Lightning Release Shadow Clone but Kakashi only used it once, and if he wastes that move with a Hiruzen's trick, he won't fall for that again, he has other ways to attack and see if there's other Kakashi around (the real one) through is nose.
Lastly, one note about Lightning Transmition. The attack was useful against the chakra arms because these covered somewhat a wide area, are tall and this works in a linear way, so no avoiding it for those arms. Against a single person or a small target its not effective and Hiruzen isn't stationary neither is Enma.

Kakashi can summon his ninken to assist him in this battle and as Kakashi has stated before that they can tear their opponents apart on his command and we have seen that they can hold opponents down for a while such as Kakashi's battle against Zabuza

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and if they do this to Enma he would disappear as when summons are harmed they usually leave the battlefield and return to their land. And if Enma is taken out then Kakashi wouldn't have much difficulty as he can outlast Hiruzen and he has more deadly techniques compared to Hiruzen. Also Hiruzen was exhausted in his fight against the edo hokages and Oro as he was getting dominated as they were all over him and he had to resort to use the reaper death seal, and due to Hiruzen's old age I don't think he will be using any clones as it is stated here

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, that it would be a mistake and a waste of chakra and it would be quite foolish to use clones as he will just be making the fight easier for Kakashi. Also how will Hiruzen take out Lightning Beast Running Jutsu as Kakashi manipulates the Beast and makes it follow his opponent and also the beast has great speed as seen here:

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and if it hits Hiruzen it could be game over.
Also Kakashi can protect himself from Hiruzen's jutsu by making Doton walls or Suiton walls or going underground to attack Hiruzen. And Hiruzen's only hope of winning is reaper death seal but he has to get close to Kakashi to take his soul away and plus Kakashi can use one of his long range jutsu to stop Hiruzen from completing the seals as Kakashi can perform Hand seals much faster than Hiruzen, and can use a Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique to stop him from completing the seals. Also without Enma Hiruzen doesn't have anything to kill Kakashi so if Kakashi takes out enma he has a bigger advantage in this fight.

 

[EZQ]

I'm a judge son i can't give arguments.. But its actually CANNON that sharingan can see trought clones (ricardoA)