Edo Hashirama>Edo Madara

[TheSages456]

Edo Madara laughs at edo hashirama with his rinnegan and mokuton.

the same way madara laughed at hashirama using powers stronger than his rinnegan & mokuton?

 

[Waltz]

Preta Path has to make physical contact to absorb chakra directly from solid matter, that is established in the manga & data-books, as seen when Preta Path had to grab Naruto to absorb his chakra from him, if the barrier could absorb chakra from physical matter then physical attacks would be useless too as the chakra would be absorbed from the attacks before they ever made contact hence why Madara's barrier failed to absorb Gaara's chakra from his sand & disable it.shodaimeicon:

@ the bold, Good that you now know. It only means that any Mokuton that comes in contact with madara can be absorbed via preta path and rendered useless.

@ Underlined: Dont be ignorant. Madara has to cast preta path himself, it is not an automatic response and over-riding all of that, he was paralized due to the Raiton 'A' merged into Mei's suiton.

@ Strike, Why do you keep repeating yourself? Its not necessary to continuously tell me something i already know. You keep circulating the content in your post making the discussion futile.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

@ the bold, Good that you now know. It only means that any Mokuton that comes in contact with madara can be absorbed via preta path and rendered useless.

@ Underlined: Dont be ignorant. Madara has to cast preta path himself, it is not an automatic response and over-riding all of that, he was paralized due to the Raiton 'A' merged into Mei's suiton.

@ Strike, Why do you keep repeating yourself? Its not necessary to continuously tell me something i already know. You keep circulating the content in your post making the discussion futile.

I have always known that & have repeated it several times in previous posts, I also said the sheer quantity of Mokuton that Hashirama can produce makes it impossible for him to absorb every bit of Mokuton that comes his way by physical touch & in the case of Senjutsu fueled Mokuton Madara or any Rinnegan user risks being petrified...Pay attention to detail.

Madara was casting Preta Path as seen as he absorbed her water (you make it seem as if he was caught off guard & disabled before he tried to utilize it), however the first thing that he took note of was the sand mixed in the water that he could not absorb or disable, this allowed the Raiton to take effect & numb his senses to prevent further resistance...This is also something I said before, Onoki described the attack in detail; again pay attention to details.

I keep circulating the same content because you keep circulating the same flawed arguments that are not supported by what we have seen in the manga, we have seen Preta Path fail multiple times against physical attacks of a solid nature & we have never seen Preta Path be effective against solid matter unless it was absorbing the chakra directly from a single individual(which led to it being petrified) or the attacker was covered in a chakra shroud that could be absorbed through the barrier, why you continue to try & ignore this is more futile than anything I have said.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

I have always known that & have repeated it several times in previous posts, I also said the sheer quantity of Mokuton that Hashirama can produce makes it impossible for him to absorb every bit of Mokuton that comes his way by physical touch & in the case of Senjutsu fueled Mokuton Madara or any Rinnegan user risks being petrified...Pay attention to detail.

Madara was casting Preta Path as seen as he absorbed her water (you make it seem as if he was caught off guard & disabled before he tried to utilize it), however the first thing that he took note of was the sand mixed in the water that he could not absorb or disable, this allowed the Raiton to take effect & numb his senses to prevent further resistance...This is also something I said before, Onoki described the attack in detail; again pay attention to details.

I keep circulating the same content because you keep circulating the same flawed arguments that are not supported by what we have seen in the manga, we have seen Preta Path fail multiple times against physical attacks of a solid nature & we have never seen Preta Path be effective against solid matter unless it was absorbing the chakra directly from a single individual(which led to it being petrified) or the attacker was covered in a chakra shroud that could be absorbed through the barrier, why you continue to try & ignore this is more futile than anything I have said.shodaimeicon:

The Databook excerpt of preta path says that it is an endless pool of suction. It is possible.

-post a scan of what your referring too.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

The Databook excerpt of preta path says that it is an endless pool of suction. It is possible.

-post a scan of what your referring too.

Is it possible? Yes; but highly unlikely then there is also the momentum of the Mokuton he has to deal with as well, do not get me wrong I am not saying that the Rinnegan as a whole can't counter Mokuton, I am just saying Preta Path alone is not a true counter.

Chapter 588, Page 14-15, as the jutsu approaches Madara chastises them warning them only physical attacks will work, & begins to absorb the jutsu, however he is not able to absorb the sand mixed in & takes note, afterwards which Onoki explains in his head that if the Sand is not enough then the Raiton should numb his senses.

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shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

Is it possible? Yes; but highly unlikely then there is also the momentum of the Mokuton he has to deal with as well, do not get me wrong I am not saying that the Rinnegan as a whole can't counter Mokuton, I am just saying Preta Path alone is not a true counter.

Chapter 588, Page 14-15, as the jutsu approaches Madara chastises them warning them only physical attacks will work, & begins to absorb the jutsu, however he is not able to absorb the sand mixed in & takes note, afterwards which Onoki explains in his head that if the Sand is not enough then the Raiton should numb his senses.

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shodaimeicon:

I would believe your arguement with this is that being that Madara was unable to absorb chakra within gaara's sand to render it useless it would be the same against hashirama's mokuton. Well, your a bit off...note that on absorbing the jutsu [

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] Raiton was already present if you observe carefully, meaning that madara was already paralyzed at that point enabling the sand to continue around his body (we see the raiton present here also) [

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Unless hashirama can infuse something like raiton to physically disable Madara, he will effortlessly absorb the chakra within mokuton, as for the bold, it is the perfect counter and quantity isn't really an issue being that it absorbs 360 degrees; from all directions. It would be no different from from naruto using tajuu Kage bunshin along with hundreds of rasengans as they would all be absorbed, regardless of incoming direction.

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[Founding Fire Shadow]

I would believe your arguement with this is that being that Madara was unable to absorb chakra within gaara's sand to render it useless it would be the same against hashirama's mokuton. Well, your a bit off...note that on absorbing the jutsu [

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] Raiton was already present if you observe carefully, meaning that madara was already paralyzed at that point enabling the sand to continue around his body (we see the raiton present here also) [

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]

Unless hashirama can infuse something like raiton to physically disable Madara, he will effortlessly absorb the chakra within mokuton, as for the bold, it is the perfect counter and quantity isn't really an issue being that it absorbs 360 degrees; from all directions. It would be no different from from naruto using tajuu Kage bunshin along with hundreds of rasengans as they would all be absorbed, regardless of incoming direction.

Spoiler

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If that was the case then the first thing Madara would have noticed was the fact he was paralyzed, the sand mixed in the water would have been irrelevant, the fact that he could not absorb the sand was what allowed the Raiton (which I agree was always present) to take effect thus truly disabling him.

The barrier can only absorb pure chakra; to absorb the chakra from the Mokuton, Madara would have to make physical contact which is not as simple as establishing a 360 degree barrier, furthermore Hashirama can infuse Natural chakra in his Mokuton which possesses far more dangerous properties than the temporary paralysis of Raiton.shodaimeicon:

 

[TobitoUN]

Just putting my opinion up here.

I don't think it is Edo Hashi>Edo Madara nor do I think it is Edo Madara>Edo Hashi.
I think it's more of a Edo Madara=Edo Hashi, and by this I mean that I don't see either of them completely destroying the other easily.
That said, we don't really know THAT much about Hashirama (Note: At least I don't.), and we've not properly seen him in many battles, so maybe he could win easily. People have to remember that Madara has the Rinnegan now, and he does seem a lot stronger.
But to me this is a stalemate until I actually see them battle Edo'd.

 

[Waltz]

If that was the case then the first thing Madara would have noticed was the fact he was paralyzed, the sand mixed in the water would have been irrelevant, the fact that he could not absorb the sand was what allowed the Raiton (which I agree was always present) to take effect thus truly disabling him.

The barrier can only absorb pure chakra; to absorb the chakra from the Mokuton, Madara would have to make physical contact which is not as simple as establishing a 360 degree barrier, furthermore Hashirama can infuse Natural chakra in his Mokuton which possesses far more dangerous properties than the temporary paralysis of Raiton.shodaimeicon:

Initial deception. Why do you think he stopped absorbing the jutsu? Judging from where the sand was covering his body he was already paralyzed. Analyzing the images in each scan are just as important as actual statements as raiton travels faster than sand in such a medium as water and was seen present as he began to absorb the jutsu.

No your wrong again there. Amplifying techniques using Nature-energy to produce Senpou/Senjutsu techniques as the jutsu themselves do not induce toad transformations as we see that jiraiya also used senpou and was completely absorbed [

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] the only way this is possible is if Madara using preta path comes into contact with hashirama only while he's gathering natural energy . Even if he's not gathering and in SM itself, his chakra is still absorb-able. [

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[shelke]

That doesn't equate to Hashirama stopping Madara, that equates to him holding him off but a standstill is not one stopping the other. Two Tiers above Hashirama? His Mokuton is inferior, His EMS was beaten already and now he has the Rinnegan, but in return he has lost the Kyuubi so that really isn't two tiers above Hashirama. His SM advantage wasn't miles above EMS (Perfect Susanoo) but it was above a PS Kyuubi fusion which is in turn above PS. Madara has now lost that Kyuubi and gained the Rinnegan instead so his SM advantage was above PS by itself by a large enough margin that fusing it with Kyuubi couldn't close the gap.

Inferior or not, Mokuton is STILL an additional ability. Rinnegan is STILL an additional Doujutsu. If the guy barely won against EMS Madara, how do you expect him to level up to EMS + Mokuton (Regardless of its inferior status) + Rinnegan?

He didn't fuse with Kurama, by the way. Basically what he did was coat it with PS. SO, he wasn't losing chakra when he was constantly using genjutsu to put nine-tails under his control? That is just pure speculation that Kurama somehow equals Rinnegan. I have no idea where you even got that impression from.

 

[KidGamer65]

Inferior or not, Mokuton is STILL an additional ability. Rinnegan is STILL an additional Doujutsu. If the guy barely won against EMS Madara, how do you expect him to level up to EMS + Mokuton (Regardless of its inferior status) + Rinnegan?

He didn't fuse with Kurama, by the way. Basically what he did was coat it with PS. SO, he wasn't losing chakra when he was constantly using genjutsu to put nine-tails under his control? That is just pure speculation that Kurama somehow equals Rinnegan. I have no idea where you even got that impression from.

What you're doing is simply layering abilities on top of each other and thinking that they make Madara superior when they obviously don't and Madara seems to agree. What will Mokuton do in the inevitable PS vs Shinsennjuu clash? Nothing. Nothing Madara has displayed with Rinnegan will make a difference during the Shinsennjuu vs PS clash either because with what he's displayed, PS is still the jutsu in his arsenal that has the most destructive power.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

Initial deception. Why do you think he stopped absorbing the jutsu? Judging from where the sand was covering his body he was already paralyzed. Analyzing the images in each scan are just as important as actual statements as raiton travels faster than sand in such a medium as water and was seen present as he began to absorb the jutsu.

No your wrong again there. Amplifying techniques using Nature-energy to produce Senpou/Senjutsu techniques as the jutsu themselves do not induce toad transformations as we see that jiraiya also used senpou and was completely absorbed [

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] the only way this is possible is if Madara using preta path comes into contact with hashirama only while he's gathering natural energy . Even if he's not gathering and in SM itself, his chakra is still absorb-able. [

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]

He stopped absorbing the jutsu due to his inability to absorb the sand mixed in the water, this allowed the Raiton to take effect, if Raiton was the first to effect him it would have naturally been the first thing he noticed, I agree the Raiton was absorbed first, but the quantity was not yet enough to impair him until after he was already disabled by the Sand, if he was already paralyzed by the Raiton that would have been evident the moment he tried to resist.

Its not just the act amplifying the jutsu with natural chakra alone, but the quantity, as shown when Preta Path absorbed Naruto's natural chakra, it was the quantity of natural chakra that caused the transformation, the quantity levels are going be drastically more substantial in a jutsu like the Thousand Hand jutsu which dwarfs mountains compared to Jiraiya's Goemon.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

He stopped absorbing the jutsu due to his inability to absorb the sand mixed in the water, this allowed the Raiton to take effect, if Raiton was the first to effect him it would have naturally been the first thing he noticed, I agree the Raiton was absorbed first, but the quantity was not yet enough to impair him until after he was already disabled by the Sand, if he was already paralyzed by the Raiton that would have been evident the moment he tried to resist.

Its not just the act amplifying the jutsu with natural chakra alone, but the quantity, as shown when Preta Path absorbed Naruto's natural chakra, it was the quantity of natural chakra that caused the transformation, the quantity levels are going be drastically more substantial in a jutsu like the Thousand Hand jutsu which dwarfs mountains compared to Jiraiya's Goemon.shodaimeicon:

@ bold: It must have been if he stopped absorbing the jutsu then the sand suddenly appeared around his body. Gaara controls the sand with his chakra, if it comes in contact with Preta path it would just absorb the chakra from within and the sand will fall to the ground.

When i said amplify i meant in terms of the jutsu quantity. Thus far, only absorbing pure Natural chakra form the user themselves have shown to be effecting in bringing forth a frog-like transformation. As for jutsu, natrue energy acts as a catalyst to speed up the production rate of the jutsu like jiraiya's goemon and the Larger the jutsu the larger the quantity of Natural energy that will be supplied to catalyze the jutsu but the natural energy itself isn't present in the jutsu as it is used up to catalyze it, hence giving preta path the ability to absorb whats left in it, the users own chakra. Hashirama's mokuton would be absorbed.

 

[BazzBee]

Madara wins No further battles

 

[HadouKage]

@ the bold, Good that you now know. It only means that any Mokuton that comes in contact with madara can be absorbed via preta path and rendered useless.

@ Underlined: Dont be ignorant. Madara has to cast preta path himself, it is not an automatic response and over-riding all of that, he was paralized due to the Raiton 'A' merged into Mei's suiton.

@ Strike, Why do you keep repeating yourself? Its not necessary to continuously tell me something i already know. You keep circulating the content in your post making the discussion futile.

When Nagato was struck by Bee's V2 lariat, he did not display any physical movement but still absorbed his chakara

 

[iRefleX]

Obito obviously isnt going to be the finale villian he's going to die by kakashi hands why would sasuke want to be the host of the 10 tails sasuke & naruto are gonna fight as rivals in the final battle have juubi criples that and if the sage cant hold juubi sasuke cannot eithere sasuke isnt becomeing a jin

also no one wins nithere can get over on the other but madara is stronger

the sage held the juubi until his death bed...

 

[iRefleX]

EMS > Rinnegan? are you stupid? Rinnegan used properly is the most OP thing in narutoverse. Rinnegan mastered properly, will allow the user to use any element, summon any creature, know all ninjutsu..etc.

Nagato with all 6 powers combined we can see a glimpse how powerful he would of been. Edo Nagato took on Naruto, Bee & Itachi. Do you know the reason he lost against them? His movement was restricted. The damage done to legs before was irreversible, meaning he could not dodge attacks, yet he nearly killed naruto, beat up bee & Itachi.

Madara will have more knowledge and will know how to use the Rinnegan to a better extent than Nagato. And i think he is the only one who capable mastering Rinnegan completely, like SO6P.

For those that say Rinnegan Madara < Hashirama...don't be ridiculous. Madara is above Hashi now. Their last fight was to the death, but no-one died = draw. yeah madara had Kurama, but madara at 1 point also lost Kurama and maybe used against him...back then Hashirama >= Madara (>= is barely). Now Madara > Hashirama.

Also Madara think Hashirama can beat him is a misconception what he means by that is he is the only other shinobi who can keep up with him. But right now Madara is wayy too OP.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

@ bold: It must have been if he stopped absorbing the jutsu then the sand suddenly appeared around his body. Gaara controls the sand with his chakra, if it comes in contact with Preta path it would just absorb the chakra from within and the sand will fall to the ground.

When i said amplify i meant in terms of the jutsu quantity. Thus far, only absorbing pure Natural chakra form the user themselves have shown to be effecting in bringing forth a frog-like transformation. As for jutsu, natrue energy acts as a catalyst to speed up the production rate of the jutsu like jiraiya's goemon and the Larger the jutsu the larger the quantity of Natural energy that will be supplied to catalyze the jutsu but the natural energy itself isn't present in the jutsu as it is used up to catalyze it, hence giving preta path the ability to absorb whats left in it, the users own chakra. Hashirama's mokuton would be absorbed.

A shinobi of Madara's caliber would no have taken note of the sand first if it was not the most disabling obstacle, even Onoki referred to the Raiton infused in the jutsu as a back-up to the sand if it was not enough, furthermore if you look closely he did not stop absorbing the jutsu until he was nigh completely encased in sand, the sand was the key to the tactic.

The side-effects of Preta Path's abilities has shown to be present in the the barrier (as shown with the paralysis caused by Raiton) as well as through direct contact (as shown when the natural chakra absorbed by the Preta Path petrified the body) regardless if it was purely a single element/composition or not, Madara was affected by the properties of Raiton despite it being only infused in a larger jutsu of varying composition, so why would he not feel the effects of natural chakra infused into Mokuton regardless of how he absorbed it? the facts established in the manga do not support Preta Path being able to absorb physical matter or being effective against physical matter regardless if chakra is infused in it or not, Preta Path is not a counter to Mokuton, Deva Path is better suited for that.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

A shinobi of Madara's caliber would no have taken note of the sand first if it was not the most disabling obstacle, even Onoki referred to the Raiton infused in the jutsu as a back-up to the sand if it was not enough, furthermore if you look closely he did not stop absorbing the jutsu until he was nigh completely encased in sand, the sand was the key to the tactic.

The side-effects of Preta Path's abilities has shown to be present in the the barrier (as shown with the paralysis caused by Raiton) as well as through direct contact (as shown when the natural chakra absorbed by the Preta Path petrified the body) regardless if it was purely a single element/composition or not, Madara was affected by the properties of Raiton despite it being only infused in a larger jutsu of varying composition, so why would he not feel the effects of natural chakra infused into Mokuton regardless of how he absorbed it? the facts established in the manga do not support Preta Path being able to absorb physical matter or being effective against physical matter regardless if chakra is infused in it or not, Preta Path is not a counter to Mokuton, Deva Path is better suited for that.shodaimeicon:

Over looking the obvious? he was making direct physical contact with the jutsu itself, not to mention raiton infused water segments surrounded his body from the impact of the jutsu hitting his palm. Read Mei's statement [

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Based on the constructs of Hashirama's mokuton, natural energy does not merge with it but amplifies it's production [

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] As i stated, it only catalyzes his techniques making him produce them in larger quantities in shorter time not that it acutally merges with the jutsu. It's already been made clear via Jiraya's Senpou Goemon that the Natural energy only amplifies the scale of his techniques. Also to mention that it also enabled naruto to produce several rasenshuriken as some further implication.

 

[shelke]

What you're doing is simply layering abilities on top of each other and thinking that they make Madara superior when they obviously don't and Madara seems to agree. What will Mokuton do in the inevitable PS vs Shinsennjuu clash? Nothing. Nothing Madara has displayed with Rinnegan will make a difference during the Shinsennjuu vs PS clash either because with what he's displayed, PS is still the jutsu in his arsenal that has the most destructive power.

And what you are doing is assuming that they do not. Do you have any proof that taking Kurama out of the picture and adding Rinnegan into the mix somehow balances it all out? There is still a possibility that Mokuton's chakra can be absorbed with Petra rendering it completely useless for further control. You cannot simply make a factual statement on complete absence of facts when the creator went as far as to venture that the man has no weakness; meaning, there is nothing to exploit, noting to over-whelm, and nothing to defeat. What would Hashirama exactly exploit?