Edo Hashirama>Edo Madara

[Founding Fire Shadow]

When did I ever imply that Preta Path could absorb taijutsu? Given that taijutsu doesn't require chakra, Preta Path would be ineffective. This is where Deva Path would come in. Preta Path can absorb the chakra out of a users body. Its already been stated that Preta Path can absorb any type of chakra and the databook makes it out to be limitless.

You say we're trying to discount the manga, look at yourself. Where has it said anywhere that Hashirama was stronger than Edo Madara? I'll wait for the manga scan that explicably states this. This is what the title implies and what you all imply, that Hashirama > Edo Madara. Yet Hashirama hasn't fought Edo Madara so don't give me that bullshit about us nitpicking at the manga. That's what you're doing, making assumptions as to who would win. Given that they haven't fought, its necessary for debate about the issue. At best, its inconclusive as to who would win given that we aren't Kishi. So please, spare us that pompous attitude. I'm no more wrong than you are.

I know the abilities of Preta Path, however you are applying them in ways not seen or even suggested like your theories on how it would stop Mokuton, furthermore Taijutsu is fueled by chakra just like any other jutsu in the world of Naruto, the shinobi with the best chakra control are shown to be exceptional in Taijutsu as they can build their chakra up and release it at the perfect point to enhance their strength & speed (Tsunade, A, etc...), if Preta Path can absorb the chakra from physical material as casually as you put it, then even Taijutsu would be useless against the Preta Path as Madara could just absorb the chakra from the blows of these shinobi rendering them moot, yet this has never been seen or even suggested & in fact in moments we have seen Preta Path go against direct physical attacks regardless if it was Taijutsu or elemental based(Gaara's sand) it has failed with the only exception being Killer Bee's Lariat as Nagato absorbed his chakra shroud, not to mention it has weaknesses as the properties of the chakra absorbed effect the user thus in cases where Hashirama's Mokuton is fueled by natural chakra, the Rinnegan user will be turned to stone if it absorbs said chakra as seen in the manga during Pain's battle with Naruto during his invasion.

I am not suggesting he is necessarily stronger than Madara as an Edo in fact I believe he is more or less equals given Edo Madara's own statements about his own power compared to the living Hashirama let alone the Edo version of him, I only debated flawed assumptions & theories on why Edo Madara was stronger just because of the Rinnegan as he no longer has the full power Kurama to aid him, which at half power is fueling the Alliance's efforts against Obito & Madara's Rinnegans & Mokuton + was powerful enough to break free of Pain's Chibaku Tensei at only 8-Tails, not once did I suggest Hashirama was stronger. I then pointed out the hypocrisy of your "low standards" comments given you blatantly admit you ignore excerpts from the manga (which will always carry more weight than any fan's opinion) in favor of your own opinion.

Pay closer attention to what I am actually saying before assuming my intent.shodaimeicon:

 

[Edo Odin]

Edo Madara stating that Hashirama beat him was ridiculous, and when you look at the feats of each character, it becomes clear that with the Rinnegan and Wood Release added to his powers, Madara takes this. I always find it funny when people try to use things that characters have stated to settle disagreements when there's nothing that actually supports that statement, because that'd mean that:

1) The Helmsplitter sword can get through Perfect Susanoo, since it was stated to get through any and all defenses [

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]

2) Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama and Minato, since Iruka stated so [

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]

3) Beating the Six Paths of Pein without knowledge is not possible, since Fukasaku stated so [

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] This means that the Six Paths of Pain take out Hashirama, since the manga said so.

So, in conclusion, believing that a match will go some way simply because some character said something about it, while there's nothing supporting that statement, doesn't make sense.

KingHashirama, are you ready to admit that Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, and that Hashirama loses to Pain ?

 

[Enton]

if Preta Path can absorb the chakra from physical material as casually as you put it, then even Taijutsu would be useless against the Preta Path as Madara could just absorb the chakra from the blows of these shinobi rendering them moot, yet this has never been seen or even suggested & in fact in moments we have seen Preta Path go against direct physical attacks regardless if it was Taijutsu or elemental based(Gaara's sand) it has failed with the only exception being Killer Bee's Lariat as Nagato absorbed his chakra shroud, not to mention it has weaknesses as the properties of the chakra absorbed effect the user thus in cases where Hashirama's Mokuton is fueled by natural chakra, the Rinnegan user will be turned to stone if it absorbs said chakra as seen in the manga during Pain's battle with Naruto during his invasion

anything with chakra in it is getting absorbed. gaara's sand isn't made of chakra, its prexisting. lots of hashirama's mokuton is made purely of chakra so it will be absorbed. only wood release which makes preexisting plants grow wont get absorbed, instead, they will have the chakra sucked out of them.

nagato absorbed sm naruto's rasenshuriken and he didnt turn to stone.

 

[SadSasuke]

Hashirama's fanboy detected! Just wait for the fight, dude.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

anything with chakra in it is getting absorbed. gaara's sand isn't made of chakra, its prexisting. lots of hashirama's mokuton is made purely of chakra so it will be absorbed. only wood release which makes preexisting plants grow wont get absorbed, instead, they will have the chakra sucked out of them.

nagato absorbed sm naruto's rasenshuriken and he didnt turn to stone.

Hashirama's Mokuton is still wood, yes chakra fueled its growth & is thus infused in it making it stronger & more durable but that does not change its cellular build, chakra is also infused in Gaara's sand yet Preta Path still could not absorb it, we have yet to see Preta Path absorb any physical matter in a solid state & it has been mentioned several times that only physical attacks are effective against it. What is there that disproves this? You can not name a single instance where we have seen Preta Path absorb solid matter; yet we have seen it fail to absorb solid matter leading to Madara being disabled.

The Rasenshuriken is not a Sage Art like Hashirama's Thousand Hand Jutsu, I am sure it had some natural chakra in it, but no where near enough to cause the transformation into stone, I doubt that is the case with the Thousand Hand Jutsu infused with natural chakra that dwarfs even mountains & the full power Kurama.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

Madara should've been able to absorb this mountain....:

Spoiler

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And Wooden release does have a mountain in it:

Spoiler

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And Madara's strongest ATTACK RIGHT NOW ACCORDING TO HIM IS:

Spoiler

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Madara's strongest attack when he faced Hashirama was:

Spoiler

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Also, no.. Now your making random assumptions on Madara's part. Which I haven't done on my part. And aren't you the same person who puts Kabuto + Edos above Hashirama... when Kabuto said noone alive is on his level? lmao.
You are acting like a typical fanboy who can't take his character being on the same level as another character.
Underestimating someone called the "GOD OF SHINOBI" is freaking retarded.


AND all Preta path has shown to absorb is the jutsus where chakra is visible.... when in the blue hell has it absorbed solids? Like I said before. Making random assumptions doesn't help your case.


Its clearly shown Tsunade uses Chakra when using Taijutsu.....

And don't give us random assumptions about Edo Madara >> Hashirama... even though he still can't match Hashirama's normal prowess.

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I've already made note of mokuton's composition and it is not the BS that your assuming. I stopped reading when you posted a scan of madara's meteorite within advent world of flowering trees and claimed that it's mokuton. Your an extremely confused individual and as a debater and you have failed.

Again it has been established in the manga multiple times, the fact that Preta Path cannot absorb physical matter is why physical attacks are effective, as seen in Chapter 588; if Preta Path could absorb physical matter then why did it fail to absorb the sand, once Madara was aware there was sand in the water why did he not just absorb it, the manga says it can't & we have not once seen it absorb physical matter], if it could taijutsu would be useless too as Preta Path could justu absorb its opponents flesh, you cant just ignore facts when it suits you.shodaimeicon:

@ the red, Obviously that is generally known and I never said that preta path can absorb physical matter, i said, and get it clear, Preta path can absorb any jutsu which includes mokuton. I read 588 and noticed that half of Madara's body was missing due to jinton and the remaining half was paralyzed due to raiton which completely strikes out him attempting to absorb the jutsu's, so whats your point here exactly?

 

[TrollingSage]

I've already made note of mokuton's composition and it is not what you assume. I stopped reading when you posted a scan of madara's meteorite within advent world of flowering trees and claimed that it's mokuton. Your an extremely confused individual, i'll leave you be.


@ the red, Obviously that is generally known and I never said that preta path can absorb physical matter, i said, and get it clear, Preta path can absorb any jutsu which includes mokuton. I read 588 and noticed that half of Madara's body was missing due to jinton and the remaining half was paralyzed due to raiton which completely strikes out him attempting to absorb the jutsu's, so whats your point here exactly?

By that logic if Tsunade loses say an arm, and she regenerates it with her nin jutsu, preta path can absorb her arms right?

 

[KidGamer65]

Edo Madara stating that Hashirama beat him was ridiculous, and when you look at the feats of each character, it becomes clear that with the Rinnegan and Wood Release added to his powers, Madara takes this. I always find it funny when people try to use things that characters have stated to settle disagreements when there's nothing that actually supports that statement, because that'd mean that:

1) The Helmsplitter sword can get through Perfect Susanoo, since it was stated to get through any and all defenses [

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-

You must be registered for see links

]

2) Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama and Minato, since Iruka stated so [

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]

3) Beating the Six Paths of Pein without knowledge is not possible, since Fukasaku stated so [

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] This means that the Six Paths of Pain take out Hashirama, since the manga said so.

So, in conclusion, believing that a match will go some way simply because some character said something about it, while there's nothing supporting that statement, doesn't make sense.

KingHashirama, are you ready to admit that Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, and that Hashirama loses to Pain ?

Not really.

1) Hyperbole

2) Unlike this case, Hashirama himself didn't say Hiruzen could beat him so it is not the same as Madara saying Hashirama can beat him.

3) Another hyperbole.

All your examples aren't as credible as one person saying that they will lose to another, especially when the one admitting inferiority knows everything about the one who he's admitting inferiority to. That is why Hashirama beating Edo Madara is fact.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

I've already made note of mokuton's composition and it is not what you assume. I stopped reading when you posted a scan of madara's meteorite within advent world of flowering trees and claimed that it's mokuton. Your an extremely confused individual, i'll leave you be.


@ the red, Obviously that is generally known and I never said that preta path can absorb physical matter, i said, and get it clear, Preta path can absorb any jutsu which includes mokuton. I read 588 and noticed that half of Madara's body was missing due to jinton and the remaining half was paralyzed due to raiton which completely strikes out him attempting to absorb the jutsu's, so whats your point here exactly?

Preta Path absorbs chakra, this is how it nullifies jutsu, Mokuton is not a jutsu in the typical sense as it is solid matter created by Hashirama infusing his elemental chakras into the earth, Preta Path cannot absorb solid matter this is why physical attacks like Taijutsu are effective against it, thus Preta Path cannot absorb Mokuton, Preta Path can absorb the chakra from solid matter through physical contact but this is limited as shown in Chapter 588, in which Madara specifically notes the sand in the water blocking his Preta Path's absorption abilities after which the Jinton he absorbed numbs his senses preventing further resistance, his current state had nothing to do with the fact that Preta Path was unable to absorb solid matter, thus Preta Path is not an effective counter to Mokuton given the sheer quantity of Mokuton Hashirama can produce & especially since Hashirama's senjutsu arts use natural chakra which the user can only absorb so much of before turning to stone.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

By that logic if Tsunade loses say an arm, and she regenerates it with her nin jutsu, preta path can absorb her arms right?

Why the stupid question? Her arm itself isn't ninjtusu so it obviously can't absorb it.

Preta path absorbing ninjutsu.....isn't my logic, this is databook facts.

Preta Path absorbs chakra, this is how it nullifies jutsu, Mokuton is not a jutsu in the typical sense as it is solid matter created by Hashirama infusing his elemental chakras into the earth, Preta Path cannot absorb solid matter this is why physical attacks like Taijutsu are effective against it, thus Preta Path cannot absorb Mokuton, Preta Path can absorb the chakra from solid matter through physical contact but this is limited as shown in Chapter 588, in which Madara specifically notes the sand in the water blocking his Preta Path's absorption abilities after which the Jinton he absorbed numbs his senses preventing further resistance, his current state had nothing to do with the fact that Preta Path was unable to absorb solid matter, thus Preta Path is not an effective counter to Mokuton given the sheer quantity of Mokuton Hashirama can produce & especially since Hashirama's senjutsu arts use natural chakra which the user can only absorb so much of before turning to stone.shodaimeicon:

Mokuton no Jutsu is a combination of two elements, Suiton and Doton it is converted to a source of life due to Yang release (yoton) which gives vitality and life. Nature Release via senjutsu is easily absorbed by preta path making yoton fall under the same category. You should read up on the jutsu before talking nonsense.

 

[TrollingSage]

Why the stupid question? Her arm itself isn't ninjtusu so it obviously can't absorb it.

Preta path absorbing ninjutsu.....isn't my logic, this is databook facts.



Mokuton no Jutsu is a combination of two elements, Suiton and Doton it is converted to a source of life due to Yang release (yoton) which gives vitality and life. Nature Release via senjutsu is easily absorbed by preta path making yoton fall under the same category. You should read up on the jutsu before talking nonsense.

Mokuton is created with ninjutsu. Tsunade recreates her arm with nin jutsu. See the similarities now?

 

[shelke]

@OP You have no argument at all here. Stop doesn't equate defeat or overwhelming someone. It's a very stale and rubbish argument. What does common sense imply? One user has Mokuton-based techniques the other has Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. That is not only Hashirama and Madara, but an additional Doujutsu combined.

Why are people bringing Dan into this? How would he know whether Hashirama beats Madara or not? A barrel of laughs.

 

[KidGamer65]

@OP You have no argument at all here. Stop doesn't equate defeat or overwhelming someone. It's a very stale and rubbish argument. What does common sense imply? One user has Mokuton-based techniques the other has Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. That is not only Hashirama and Madara, but an additional Doujutsu combined.

Why are people bringing Dan into this? How would he know whether Hashirama beats Madara or not? A barrel of laughs.

You can't say that is Hashirama and Madara when Madara doesn't have all of Hashirama's abilities and all of his Mokuton techs. For example Madara can't use Shinshuusenju and any other Sage Mokuton tech he might have. Not to mention Auto Healing and the benefits of Sage Mode. Madara only has a fraction of Hashirama's power.

Also, Madara is in the middle of a fight with the Gokage and proceeds to say only Hashirama can stop him. Context obviously shows that he means defeat. What else would he be talking about when comparing how Hashirama can stop him to how the Gokage can't stop him?

The only buff that Madara has gotten that really matters is Rinnegan. He's gained Mokuton but he can't use Sage Mokuton or Sage Mode and the other various techs Hashirama has which already triumphed over the 100% Kyuubi and his strongest jutsu, Perfect Susanoo. So EMS isn't making a difference here either.

 

[Waltz]

Mokuton is created with ninjutsu. Tsunade recreates her arm with nin jutsu. See the similarities now?

I only see you misunderstanding the jutsu itself. Mokuton is a jutsu, specifically a Kekke Genkai just as Jinton is a Kekke Tota and is a combination of two elements, Suiton and Doton then converted to a source of life due to Yoton which gives vitality and life; giving Hashirama the ability to manipulate its shape size and growth ect. Shizen enerugi via senjutsu is easily absorbed by preta path making Yoton fall under the same category.

 

[TheSages456]

@OP You have no argument at all here. Stop doesn't equate defeat or overwhelming someone. It's a very stale and rubbish argument. What does common sense imply? One user has Mokuton-based techniques the other has Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. That is not only Hashirama and Madara, but an additional Doujutsu combined.

Why are people bringing Dan into this? How would he know whether Hashirama beats Madara or not? A barrel of laughs.

are people still spouting this "edo madara is hashirama+madara" nonsense?

 

[shelke]

You can't say that is Hashirama and Madara when Madara doesn't have all of Hashirama's abilities and all of his Mokuton techs. For example Madara can't use Shinshuusenju and any other Sage Mokuton tech he might have. Not to mention Auto Healing and the benefits of Sage Mode. Madara only has a fraction of Hashirama's power.

Also, Madara is in the middle of a fight with the Gokage and proceeds to say only Hashirama can stop him. Context obviously shows that he means defeat. What else would he be talking about when comparing how Hashirama can stop him to how the Gokage can't stop him?

The only buff that Madara has gotten that really matters is Rinnegan. He's gained Mokuton but he can't use Sage Mokuton or Sage Mode and the other various techs Hashirama has which already triumphed over the 100% Kyuubi and his strongest jutsu, Perfect Susanoo. So EMS isn't making a difference here either.

That is a Sage Mode, a completely different mode of fighting. I am only counting Hashirama's Mokuton techniques outside the SM. Even if we do include this, let's not forget this Hashirama barely won and by a hair at that against an EMS user. Why are you bringing healing into this? The guy is an Edo. Is that even a moot point here?

Not really. Even it terms of context, it may not imply defeat at all, but a simple dead-end on both sides where there is no defeat or victory. It's not EMS alone, but EMS in conjunction with Mokuton - without SM - and Rinnegan. That is two tiers above Hashirama regardless of his SM advantage, which we all know wasn't miles above EMS.

are people still spouting this "edo madara is hashirama+madara" nonsense?

I can't see how you are contributing to the discussion. Mokuton - without SM - + EMS - which he barely won against, but couldn't do so in the past - + Rinnegan. I don't see your overly collaborating pointer's implication.

 

[TheSages456]

That is a Sage Mode, a completely different mode of fighting. I am only counting Hashirama's Mokuton techniques outside the SM. Even if we do include this, let's not forget this Hashirama barely won and by a hair at that against an EMS user. Why are you bringing healing into this? The guy is an Edo. Is that even a moot point here?

Not really. Even it terms of context, it may not imply defeat at all, but a simple dead-end on both sides where there is no defeat or victory. It's not EMS alone, but EMS in conjunction with Mokuton - without SM - and Rinnegan. That is two tiers above Hashirama regardless of his SM advantage, which we all know wasn't miles above EMS.



I can't see how you are contributing to the discussion. Mokuton - without SM - + EMS - which he barely won against, but couldn't do so in the past - + Rinnegan. I don't see your overly collaborating pointer's implication.

hashirama won against a PS/kyuubi fusion which is above anything that current madara has. that alone ends the debate. if hashirama struggled & barely beat madara when he wasnt using PS then you would have an argument of how he loses to edo madaras new weaker techs.

 

[Omnipotent]

It was stated that Hashirama has a chance at beating Edo Madara.
But when did this ever equate to him actually beating him 10/10 times as you guys seem to imply?

You guys are going so far as to say Hashirama (not an Edo) > Edo Madara. Tell me now, how would he deal with Edo Madara, who has unlimited chakra and an undying body? You guys must think after seeing Shinsuusenju that EMS Madara must have been taken down negative difficulty, because big things impress you, right?

Hashirama, had he faced even an Edo EMS Madara back in the day, would have lost. Yes, he would be slightly superior, but what would that mean when your opponent won't run out of stamina and he just won't die?

Didn't even have to mention the rinnegan :|. Can't Edo Madara just spam meteors?

 

[shelke]

hashirama won against a PS/kyuubi fusion which is above anything that current madara has. that alone ends the debate. if hashirama struggled & barely beat madara when he wasnt using PS then you would have an argument of how he loses to edo madaras new weaker techs.

You have I have gone through this debate in another thread as well. You didn't agree with me, and I didn't see things your way. There is no point in restarting this.

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

Edo Madara stating that Hashirama beat him was ridiculous, and when you look at the feats of each character, it becomes clear that with the Rinnegan and Wood Release added to his powers, Madara takes this. I always find it funny when people try to use things that characters have stated to settle disagreements when there's nothing that actually supports that statement, because that'd mean that:

1) The Helmsplitter sword can get through Perfect Susanoo, since it was stated to get through any and all defenses [

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-

You must be registered for see links

]

2) Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama and Minato, since Iruka stated so [

You must be registered for see links

]

3) Beating the Six Paths of Pein without knowledge is not possible, since Fukasaku stated so [

You must be registered for see links

] This means that the Six Paths of Pain take out Hashirama, since the manga said so.

So, in conclusion, believing that a match will go some way simply because some character said something about it, while there's nothing supporting that statement, doesn't make sense.

KingHashirama, are you ready to admit that Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, and that Hashirama loses to Pain ?

BUT a statement by the character HIMSELF admitting that he would loose is ...... hard to argue against. it's different than another character saying something he believes and madara is PROUD of his power (he has a lot of pride.

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so he wouldn't say hashirama could beat him in the sense of admiring him, he was his rival.
now people not being able to imagine how this fight will go doesn't mean anything, and to dismiss this statement you need a good valid reason coz this was said by madara himself not what another character thinks of him .....