[VS] (Owarij) vs (DrProof) Kakuzu vs Sasori Debate!

[DrProof]

Who started back up these debate threads?!? Nonetheless, happy to see them back and never would I have thought Sasori would lose to Kakuzu

I'm thinking about getting a tournament started soon, and yes Kakuzu can beat Sasori vice versa.

OT: Owarij I'll post a reply soon.

 

[fastrthnwind]

I'm thinking about getting a tournament started soon, and yes Kakuzu can beat Sasori vice versa.

OT: Owarij I'll post a reply soon.

What kind of tournament?

 

[spade3dg]

Umm Dr. Proof no reply to Owarij?

Ot: great debate so far

 

[DrProof]

Umm Dr. Proof no reply to Owarij?

Ot: great debate so far

I'm saving it for tomorrow, or until I get things done. There is no need to rush. Patience is Key.

 

[Owarij]

I'm saving it for tomorrow, or until I get things done. There is no need to rush. Patience is Key.

Yeaa, even if you replied, i'd prob respond tomorrow

 

[killer1]

i want to add one point by applying current on a material yo basically deteriorate the magnetic in a material its not just that simple if it is not applied in right direction such as its effect is opposite of magnetic moment of domains it will work however if applied in wrong direction it will have no effect

now keeping the above statement i derive this possibility that as sand magnetism can be used to arrange domain in what ever he wants rite and that is the main source of magnetize he can arrange magnetized sands of different magnetic moments of domain in this case there will be no absolute possibility that all magnetic moments will be disturbed which means lighting will sometimes and sometimes will not work is is more dangerous than not working alone and if the magnitude of current is large it can demagnetize and then magnetize domains in opposite direction so result is still magnetized sand so i think you guys should rule out that possibility

as long fire is concerned it is possible but then again where was physics when deidra used clay to make birds and explosives lol and take a look at this

Ferrofluid is a unique material that acts like a magnetic solid and like a liquid. In contrast, black sand is a regular magnetic solid. Surprisingly, both ferrofluid and black sand are made of magnetite! The difference in their behavior is due to size.

Ferrofluid is made of tiny, nanometer-sized particles of coated magnetite suspended in liquid. When there’s no magnet around, ferrofluid acts like a liquid. The magnetite particles move freely in the fluid. But when there’s a magnet nearby, the particles are temporarily magnetized. They form structures within the fluid, causing the ferrofluid to act more like a solid. When the magnet is removed, the particles are demagnetized and ferrofluid acts like a liquid again.

Black sand is also made of magnetite, but it doesn’t have ferrofluid’s unusual properties. That’s because the grains of sand are much larger than the magnetite particles in ferrofluid. As a result, they’re permanently magnetic and can’t be suspended in a liquid.

and Average fire will burn somewhere between 700 and 900 Deg. C
The Curie temperature of magnetite is 858 K (585 °C; 1,085 °F).

so yes fire can work in demagnetizing

END RESULT - SHOCK factor may not work FIRE or Heating method will work


hope it helps the judges and this also means you have to get the magnet out if you want to defeat sasori lol

and i suggest don't use much physics and its not that simple we don't know yet that magnetized sand components yet in naruto it can differ which can result in lowering or increasing curie temperature which can very well go out of range of heat of average fire

 

[DrProof]

Spoiler

I'm aware that naruto uses real physics but as I said the magnetism release is more complicated than plain physics....I listed nothing at all that's "speculation" I listed things you didn't cover... "beyond hot" isn't enough to say for sure that it can dematerialize the iron sand, as you don't know exactly what type of iron is used and what its curie point is.. You also don't know what effect chakra has on the curie point nor how sand which is one of the medium affects fire in the first place... (In the real world sand is capable of killing the oxygen for a fire thus extinguishing it.. which is why throwing a bucket of sand on fire is a commonly used technique)

Jiton when translated to english means Magnetism release or magnetism nature, All chakra transformations and advance chakra transformations translate to similar names and every single one have to do with chakra combinations..

Haku's Ice release, wood release etc..

Bloodline kkgs like sharingan or Shikotsumyaku have totally different names .Their translations turn into more literal things.. eg kimaro's when translated is - "Corpse Bone Chain" Sharingan "Copy wheel eye" .this is a theme in the manga..so I don't see how you suggest that magnetism release isn't an elemntal kkg..


I just post the small cut scans to save space in the argument, but if you want the entire argument and to save counters of other things for later posts, but here you go

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Top is where you're looking at in which the databook states the magnetism can be increased at will.. which backs up my original statement in saying, your argument was just circumstantial.. you have no idea of how chakra influences the sand or magnetism, so you can't make an argument simply based on a real world event


Also the databook on practically every page says iron sand, not powder, iron sand is an actual material ...
Once again , how would jinogu do such a thing when Sasori's defence theoretically would be greater than that of Gaara's... his movement in the air when fighting on iron sand footholds would be incredible, faster than gaara's movement, since the databook states he can

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Use repellent property of magnetism to significantly increase his speed... This makes dodging incoming attacks easier and he may not even need to cover himself in a defence

Futile Argument Without Properties Given


However, I take note of everything you've said. But hypothetically Katon/Raiton WILL demagnetize a magnetic force. Saying it won't is pure speculation as we don't know the properties of either the fires heat, and the properties of The Third Kazekage's Iron Sand. However, fire itself usually burns around 1,000 °C (1,830 °F) which is degree's above the temperature needed to demagnetize a magnet thus' why I say Kakuzu's Katon/Raiton will get the job done.. It's really baseless to argue against each other due to this topic not being specified to its fullest.

Also, to debate against his repellent force granting him speed, that is incorrect. The repellent force will give his Iron Sand speed correct, as it is a magnetic force. However saying that it will indirectly give him increased speed is a false accusation thus' it is moot mentioning it.

Sasori CANNOT Fly/Kakuzu Jiongu Tactics


Also mentioning that Sasori when he wasnt shown to do such (flying on Iron Sand) is also an accusation that you cannot concur to be true. What if Sasori needs to be on the ground to control his Iron Sand? What if any added weight would cause the Iron Sand to drop to the ground due to it's increased density? See where I am going? If Sasori hasn't been shown to even display such tactics we cannot imply that he can do such. Thus' that was also a moot point.

Jiongu wouldn't be able to pierce through Iron Sand you are 100% correct on that accusation, however Raiton/Katon would defeat Sasori's Iron Sand as I've already stated, and Sasori cannot fly on Iron Sand due to us not personally witnessing such tactics. Which leaves Sasori open to a Joingu attack, however which attack is it?

Kakuzu was seen to be able to reattach, and send his own limbs down into the ground, thus being able to surprise Sasori from an ambush from behind invading his body, and ultimately taking his core killing him.

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[Owarij]

Futile Argument Without Properties Given


However, I take note of everything you've said. But hypothetically Katon/Raiton WILL demagnetize a magnetic force. Saying it won't is pure speculation as we don't know the properties of either the fires heat, and the properties of The Third Kazekage's Iron Sand. However, fire itself usually burns around 1,000 °C (1,830 °F) which is degree's above the temperature needed to demagnetize a magnet thus' why I say Kakuzu's Katon/Raiton will get the job done.. It's really baseless to argue against each other due to this topic not being specified to its fullest.

Also, to debate against his repellent force granting him speed, that is incorrect. The repellent force will give his Iron Sand speed correct, as it is a magnetic force. However saying that it will indirectly give him increased speed is a false accusation thus' it is moot mentioning it.

Sasori CANNOT Fly/Kakuzu Jiongu Tactics


Also mentioning that Sasori when he wasnt shown to do such (flying on Iron Sand) is also an accusation that you cannot concur to be true. What if Sasori needs to be on the ground to control his Iron Sand? What if any added weight would cause the Iron Sand to drop to the ground due to it's increased density? See where I am going? If Sasori hasn't been shown to even display such tactics we cannot imply that he can do such. Thus' that was also a moot point.

Jiongu wouldn't be able to pierce through Iron Sand you are 100% correct on that accusation, however Raiton/Katon would defeat Sasori's Iron Sand as I've already stated, and Sasori cannot fly on Iron Sand due to us not personally witnessing such tactics. Which leaves Sasori open to a Joingu attack, however which attack is it?

Kakuzu was seen to be able to reattach, and send his own limbs down into the ground, thus being able to surprise Sasori from an ambush from behind invading his body, and ultimately taking his core killing him.

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You're mistaken yet again Mr proof.. the one speculating that fire/lightning would demagnitize the iron here is you.. as i've said twice now you're only speculating on the heat of the fire.. you don't know the sub elements of magnetism release.. and you fail to acknowledge the fact that Sasori can INCREASE the magnetism at will..

Your entire argument is based on your assumption of kakuzu's fire heat, suited for your argument.. you STILL don't know the curie point of Sandaime's sand.. and you don't know how chakra affects it.. I covered and refuted this already yet you still reiterate the same argument

Also mentioning that Sasori when he wasnt shown to do such (flying on Iron Sand) is also an accusation that you cannot concur to be true. What if Sasori needs to be on the ground to control his Iron Sand? What if any added weight would cause the Iron Sand to drop to the ground due to it's increased density? See where I am going? If Sasori hasn't been shown to even display such tactics we cannot imply that he can do such. Thus' that was also a moot point.

And really? If this is how you're going to grasp at straws then it would be best to end the debate as we've reached an impassible difference in opinions.. what at all suggests that iron sand isn't capable of holding up a few pounds? when gaaras ordinary stand has lifted up not only himself but 5 kage + more..

What in the manga suggests he needs to be on the ground to control iron sand? His sandaime puppet is constantly in the air and has displayed the iron sand ability.. so what does that have to do with Sasori? he's just the puppeteer giving instructions.. the one casting the jutsu is the puppet.. and the puppet casted it while aerial..

Saying sasori can use water element because he has 298 puppets and one of them most likely is a suiton user - that is an example of giving sasori a feat he hasn't shown...


1) Sasori has shown he's capable of making any shape with his iron sand, databook backs this up
2) Sasori has shown he can make the sand levitate

Sasori has fully shown every prerequisite needed to accomplish something as simple as that.. So I fail to see what exactly you're claiming he can't do...



If we can't get past this, then We'll require the judges to come in and decide the winner based on what has been done thus far

 

[Penguin]

I am in shock tht you guys know this much. Too bad this isn't dragon ball or I would be top dog =P Great debate!

 

[Kages]

I am in shock tht you guys know this much. Too bad this isn't dragon ball or I would be top dog =P Great debate!

Yes they are both intelligent.. Well everyone would go to e depths of everything to win a debate xd

 

[DrProof]

Spoiler

You're mistaken yet again Mr proof.. the one speculating that fire/lightning would demagnitize the iron here is you.. as i've said twice now you're only speculating on the heat of the fire.. you don't know the sub elements of magnetism release.. and you fail to acknowledge the fact that Sasori can INCREASE the magnetism at will..

Your entire argument is based on your assumption of kakuzu's fire heat, suited for your argument.. you STILL don't know the curie point of Sandaime's sand.. and you don't know how chakra affects it.. I covered and refuted this already yet you still reiterate the same argument






And really? If this is how you're going to grasp at straws then it would be best to end the debate.. what at all suggests that iron sand isn't capable of holding up a few pounds? when gaaras ordinary stand has lifted up not only himself but 5 kage + more..

What in the manga suggests he needs to be on the ground to control iron sand? His sandaime puppet is constantly in the air and has displayed the iron sand ability.. so what does that have to do with Sasori? he's just the puppeteer giving instructions.. the one casting the jutsu is the puppet.. and the puppet casted it while aerial..

Saying sasori can use water element because he has 298 puppets and one of them most likely is a suiton user - that is an example of giving sasori a feat he hasn't shown...


1) Sasori has shown he's capable of making any shape with his iron sand, databook backs this up
2) Sasori has shown he can make the sand levitate

Sasori has fully shown every prerequisite needed to accomplish something as simple as that.. So I fail to see what exactly you're claiming he can't do...

You're mistaken yet again Mr proof.. the one speculating that fire/lightning would demagnitize the iron here is you.. as i've said twice now you're only speculating on the heat of the fire.. you don't know the sub elements of magnetism release.. and you fail to acknowledge the fact that Sasori can INCREASE the magnetism at will..

Your entire argument is based on your assumption of kakuzu's fire heat, suited for your argument.. you STILL don't know the curie point of Sandaime's sand.. and you don't know how chakra affects it.. I covered and refuted this already yet you still reiterate the same argument

Incorrect, you are speculating that due to the unknown curie point of Sandaime KazeKage's Iron Sand you can infer that the Katon itself would have no effect well sure I'll let you believe such matters. However you have no countered the Lightning based approach. Raiton or Lightning is hotter than fire itself, but that's not the point. The energy Lightning produces would demagnetize the Kazekage's Iron Sand defense rather you disagree or not.

You are the one re-stating what has already been dismissed, and proven. Iron Sand would be demagnetized by Katon, or Raiton.

And really? If this is how you're going to grasp at straws then it would be best to end the debate.. what at all suggests that iron sand isn't capable of holding up a few pounds? when gaaras ordinary stand has lifted up not only himself but 5 kage + more..

What in the manga suggests he needs to be on the ground to control iron sand? His sandaime puppet is constantly in the air and has displayed the iron sand ability.. so what does that have to do with Sasori? he's just the puppeteer giving instructions.. the one casting the jutsu is the puppet.. and the puppet casted it while aerial..

We can end this debate here, and now. As I've already stated, speculating things that we haven't see the character DO is pointless, and isn't proof. However you did prove me wrong about Sasori not controlling the Iron Sand itself (forgot about that). However, once again stating things that we haven't seen from the character is pointless, and unprofessional.

Saying sasori can use water element because he has 298 puppets and one of them most likely is a suiton user - that is an example of giving sasori a feat he hasn't shown...


1) Sasori has shown he's capable of making any shape with his iron sand, databook backs this up
2) Sasori has shown he can make the sand levitate

Sasori has fully shown every prerequisite needed to accomplish something as simple as that.. So I fail to see what exactly you're claiming he can't do...

Mentioning these points are futile, as the above I've already stated that the character not showing they can perform the capabilities to do such things doesn't help the argument itself. That's like saying Sasuke can use Suiton when he cannot, or that Madara can use Suiton/Doton because he has rinnegan when he hasn't shown such. It's all pointless, so showing things he can do is what you should stick with, it helps your argument as you're providing true factual mentions.

 

[Owarij]

Incorrect, you are speculating that due to the unknown curie point of Sandaime KazeKage's Iron Sand you can infer that the Katon itself would have no effect well sure I'll let you believe such matters. However you have no countered the Lightning based approach. Raiton or Lightning is hotter than fire itself, but that's not the point. The energy Lightning produces would demagnetize the Kazekage's Iron Sand defense rather you disagree or not.

I never said that due to the unknown curie point the katon would have no effect... It would be best to stop twisting my words..
I said your entire argument is filled with speculation and missing gaps of information..Such asl
- The heat of the flame
- The curie point of the material Sandaime uses as a medium for his kekke genkai
-What role chakra has to play in the element (Databook states that which chakra he can increase the magnetism) That alone should shut down your argument
+ more I have previously listed

I already spoke about the lightning argument.. As I said, thought the narutoverse follows physics, it still implements its on elements... specifically referring to the Nature transformations... As I have stated, Magnetism is an advance nature kekke genkai..made by combining two elements.. you do not know how the compositon of elements would affect raiton..

eg- in the real work, water would normally extinguish fire...but when kakuzu added wind , kakashi's suiton was useless

As iv'e covered already, you can't speculate such a thing for certain when you don't have enough evidence about the topic at hand

I also found the very website you copy pasted you "Shock" argument from and

3) Via shock: this really only applies to older materials such as magnetic steels and Alnico materials; the mechanism that creates coercivity means that they are susceptible to being demagnetized if enough energy is transmitted through the material via a shock, such as being dropped or hit with a hammer. Modern materials do not suffer this type of problem.

It was not reffering to electricity but the other definition of "Shock"

a sudden and violent blow or impact; collision.

I am interested in known how exactly you came to the conclusion that its referring to electricity, or how you can dare assume that the iron sand falls under the category of older materials?


Since this isn't going anywhere, the judges must be contacted to make final adjudication

 

[DrProof]

I never said that due to the unknown curie point the katon would have no effect... It would be best to stop twisting my words..
I said your entire argument is filled with speculation and missing gaps of information..Such asl
- The heat of the flame
- The curie point of the material Sandaime uses as a medium for his kekke genkai
-What role chakra has to play in the element (Databook states that which chakra he can increase the magnetism) That alone should shut down your argument
+ more I have previously listed

I already spoke about the lightning argument.. As I said, thought the narutoverse follows physics, it still implements its on elements... specifically referring to the Nature transformations... As I have stated, Magnetism is an advance nature kekke genkai..made by combining two elements.. you do not know how the compositon of elements would affect raiton..

eg- in the real work, water would normally extinguish fire...but when kakuzu added wind , kakashi's suiton was useless

As iv'e covered already, you can't speculate such a thing for certain when you don't have enough evidence about the topic at hand

I also found the very website you copy pasted you "Shock" argument from and
It was not reffering to electricity but the other definition of "Shock"
I am interested in known how exactly you came to the conclusion that its referring to electricity, or how you can dare assume that the iron sand falls under the category of older materials?


Since this isn't going anywhere, the judges must be contacted to make final adjudication

I wasn't twisting you words around, I was merely assuming the latter that being you would believe since we don't know the curie point of The Kazekage's Iron Sand.

Also, thanks for finding that I was actually looking for the site to save for later arguments. It refers to energy, energy is made with light which is electricity is it not? If enough energy (which lightning proves to deploy) is deployed against the Iron Sand, which you cannot speculate either if it is a new or old material would demagnetize it.

However if you want to go with the latter believing that shock is by physical force Kakuzu's Doton Armor: Earth Spear would get the job done since dropping obviously as it is seems a hard physical force on a magnetic field would cause the field to deter?

It's actually quite logical. Anyhow, let the judges debate the winner. Good Job, you've probably won this debate nonetheless it was fun, and having a legendary debater such as you all the more has improved my skill. That's all I really wanted.

 

[Edo Odin]

Alright guys, I've notified the other judges of this, the results should be up pretty soon.

 

[Varrah]

Expecting highlights showcasing the character(s) pluses and de-confining their respective weaknesses; as you know, the point of a debate is not to tell why X defeats Y, but rather who explains it better. In simplicity, it’s not about who would win in a fight between the manga characters; it's about who forms the better argument between users.

Branching from this, both arguments as a collective focused primary on the theoretical possibilities, with only one debater actually moving forward, the opposition’s context was heavily concerned with rebuttals, and as such; had no real progressing tended to or accounted for his opponent’s advancement: it lacked development.

Wholly, Owarij’s argument flowed better: when in comparison, Proof’s did not, spending the majority of his time countering his opponents post. Owarij advanced from objective

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involving

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that concluded the battle; Proof’s argument was hazy for it ultimately lacked these developments. It felt, that outside of rebutting Owarij’s arguments, you had little strategy for your own.

Ultimately, if you had constructed your argument

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, than I believe it would have won the debate in your favor; especially since you are arguing Kakuzu:

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, possessing both Jinogu and Doton Domu, attributes that severely heighten his close quarter combat abilities—which is a range that generally, puppeteers are weak in—though obviously this applies less to Sasori, than say Kankuro.

Vote, Owarij.​

 

[Kages]

Yeah, go Owarij (no offense Proof, but Owarij is Mah bestie) :drive:

 

[slaton02]

close fight but Kakuzu has the edge because his Iron skin and Heart Ninjutsu

 

[Edo Odin]

Great debates from both sides, very well done gentlemen.

Overall, both sides came up with some good arguments for their shinobi, but in the end, I'd have to give this to Owarij. Looking at the debate as a whole, he was the more aggressive one in the debate, with him mainly bringing up points while DrDroof mainly seemed just to focus on countering them instead, and seemed to have more knowledge of the abilities of his shinobi overall.

Proof also brought up a bit shaky point when involving physics in Naruto, when we've seen before that real life physics do not always apply in the NarutoVerse, and especially with the Kekkei Genkai's, an example being when a Fireball did close to nothing to Haku's thin Ice Mirrors, when by all logic the thin ice plates should have been easily melted [

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] This points to Kekkei Genkai's not necessarily obeying the laws of the real world, and that, along with the fact that Sasori can control the magnetism of the Sand, leads me to side with Owarij on that one.

But like I said, great debate, it was immensely fun to read, and I look forward to seeing more of you guys in the future.

Ultimately, my vote goes to Owarij.

 

[DrProof]

I see. So instead of mainly countering I should have devoted some time into progressing? I see. Nice job Owarij.

 

[Kages]

I see. So instead of mainly countering I should have devoted some time into progressing? I see. Nice job Owarij.

Owarij got back at you for beating me