Rikudou Sennin Is Definitely An Uzumaki

[Chatte]

I disagree on this theory over and over bro. Why? Because it doesn't make any sense. NO UZUMAKI IS THAT OP.

If it was in the Uzumaki bloodline, then the others would be OP to. But they weren't. A lot bout the sage has been revealed. And the revealed information says, he is SENJU and UCHIHA.

And since Uzumaki clan members are considered Senju linage. That just proofs Uzumaki came after the Senju and Uchiha Clan.

Also, I doubt they are over 1000 or so years old.



no Omni bro, you messed up on the timeline. Nawaki was dead, when Kushina was brought in as a Jin.

And also, you do have to remember. The first Hokage and the Second hokage were gone by then. So, their information on the Senju or who to pick was not considered. Instead it was up to MITO, who herself was a Uzumaki. So thats where the tradition began. But she herself was a coincidence Jinchuriki, not brought to the village to be the 9-tails jin.

But if SO6P was a Uzumaki, he would've no chance against the Juubi.

What? Did you really read the thread throughout?
Most of the points you said were already covered.
Kushina was brought especially for being a Jinchuuriki for the 9 tails.
This only enforces the idea. :|
Not everything is about Uchihas and Senju's in this manga, you know?
Hell, the protagonist is an Uzumaki, as I said.

 

[KingHashirama]

I respect your opinion on the matter, but like I pointed out, the word "lineage" uttered by Zetsu was misconstrued to mean that the Uzumakis were an off-branch family from the main Senju line, which is false, since the contextual meaning of the word lineage in an anthropological sense in relation to the coefficient of variants of relations, Lineage in that context definitely meant : Kinship
which is blood-related, not the Uzumakis stemming forth from the Senju tree. And like I pointed out in my previous posts, it does not necessarily follow that if one member your clan was "OP" then the rest would be also, is Konohamaru OP like Hiruzen? no, there's always one who stands out even among the cream of the crop, so Rikudou Sennin standed out as the elite of the elite of his clan, and the Rinnegan was his power alone, not a Kekkei Genkai that is passed down through one's clan, but, since the original Rinnegan was wielded by the Sage, then by the law of genetic inheritance, as the combination of Uchiha and Senju DNA has shown, is the method to unlock and awaken the Rinnegan, so the power of the Sage is passed through his direct descendants, and not his clan. And besides, was not the Uzumakis the elite of the elite when it comes to sealing jutsus?

Wrong sir, Zetsu stated " from the senju linage". He did not state from the Uchiha linage.. did he? no sir. He specifically stated the SENJU. Meaning the Uzumaki clan started off from the Senju clan, which leads them to be distant relatives. If you are from that specific linage, also means you have that blood. Madara himself, said only those with Senju and Uchiha blood can summon the Gedo.. meaning Nagato had senju blood. He could not have Senju blood, if the Uzumaki clan was not part of the Senju clan in the past.

Konohamaru is like 14... how can he already be OP.. lol. But he sure in hell will be in the future , more OP then Hiruzen.

Also, the Shinobi system started later on. Before the SO6P there were no Shinobi. Uzumaki clan is a clan of Shinobis. Before the shinobi system, there were Samurai.

Were Uzumaki elite of the elite when it comes to sealings.. It depends. The SPECIALIZED in sealing. They were not a warrior clan. However, the Senju leader himself, had a scroll called the "Scroll of seals". So that also means the Senju did seals to.

You must possess Senju + Uchiha blood to have the rinnegan. And Uzumaki clan is considered to have Senju blood.

I can basically turn your whole theory around, and base it on the Senju clan, and meaning that the SO6P was originally from the Senju clan, and the Uchiha clan was started by the SO6P's older son, because he was mad at the younger son being the successor for the Senju clan.


But in the end that will go against the manga, and will be proven wrong.



(Uzumaki) Senju + Uchiha = SO6P.

What? Did you really read the thread throughout?
Most of the points you siad were already covered.
Kushina was brought especially for being a Jinchuuriki for the 9 tails.
This only enforces the idea. :|
Not everything is about Uchihas and Senju's in this manga, you know?
Hell, the protagonist is an Uzumaki, as I said.

The reason i restated them is because they weren't covered. They were covered based on assumptions not on manga facts.
Kushina was brought especially for being a jinchuriki, yes. But there was no Senju clan there. And I doubt the village was gonna used the grandkids of the First Hokage.. lmao. Next best choice after the Senju are the Uzumaki.

Actually everything is about the Senju and Uchiha.
The protagonist represents the Senju.. lol while the antagonist reps the Uchiha.

Nagato was used by Madara why? cause he is from the senju linage.

 

[bl4ckJack]

Nicely presented :y

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Wrong sir, Zetsu stated " from the senju linage". He did not state from the Uchiha linage.. did he? no sir. He specifically stated the SENJU. Meaning the Uzumaki clan started off from the Senju clan, which leads them to be distant relatives. If you are from that specific linage, also means you have that blood. Madara himself, said only those with Senju and Uchiha blood can summon the Gedo.. meaning Nagato had senju blood. He could not have Senju blood, if the Uzumaki clan was not part of the Senju clan in the past.

Konohamaru is like 14... how can he already be OP.. lol. But he sure in hell will be in the future , more OP then Hiruzen.

Also, the Shinobi system started later on. Before the SO6P there were no Shinobi. Uzumaki clan is a clan of Shinobis. Before the shinobi system, there were Samurai.

Were Uzumaki elite of the elite when it comes to sealings.. It depends. The SPECIALIZED in sealing. They were not a warrior clan. However, the Senju leader himself, had a scroll called the "Scroll of seals". So that also means the Senju did seals to.

You must possess Senju + Uchiha blood to have the rinnegan. And Uzumaki clan is considered to have Senju blood.

I can basically turn your whole theory around, and base it on the Senju clan, and meaning that the SO6P was originally from the Senju clan, and the Uchiha clan was started by the SO6P's older son, because he was mad at the younger son being the successor for the Senju clan.


But in the end that will go against the manga, and will be proven wrong.



(Uzumaki) Senju + Uchiha = SO6P.

It is ,like I pointed out, a misconstrued interpretation that the Uzumaki's were an off-branch of the Senjus, like I pointed out the real contextual meaning of the word was "kinship" of related by blood, not necessarily meaning descendant.

Wrong sir, Zetsu stated " from the senju linage". He did not state from the Uchiha linage.. did he? no sir. He specifically stated the SENJU. Meaning the Uzumaki clan started off from the Senju clan, which leads them to be distant relatives. If you are from that specific linage, also means you have that blood. Madara himself, said only those with Senju and Uchiha blood can summon the Gedo.. meaning Nagato had senju blood. He could not have Senju blood, if the Uzumaki clan was not part of the Senju clan in the past.

you said it yourself, you need both Senju and Uchiha DNA to summon the Gedo Mazo, but if you say Nagato only has Senju DNA through his Uzumaki Heritage, then where is the Uchiha DNA within him to accomplish such a feat like summoning the statue?

Quoted from official sources:

Due to having the DNA of both Senju and Uchiha and awakening the Rinnegan, Madara Uchiha was able to break the seal placed on it by the Sage of the Six Paths, who had sealed it within the moon, and summon the body to earth.

 

[KingHashirama]

It is ,like I pointed out, a misconstrued point that the Uzumaki's were an off-branch of the Senjus, like I pointed out the real contextual meaning of the word was "kinship" of related by blood, not necessarily meaning descendant, and you said it yourself, you need both Senju and Uchiha DNA to summon the Gedo Mazo, but if you say Nagato only has Senju DNA through his Uzumaki Heritage, then where is the Uchiha DNA within him to accomplish such a feat like summoning the statue?

And what is the problem being a off-branch? They were weaker then the Senju...
"The real contextual meaning" that is your assumption.

Lineage definitions (free-dictionary) :

1.
a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

Lineage (Merriam-Webster dictionary):


a : descent in a line from a common progenitor
b : derivation
2
: a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; especially : such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder


The eyes of Madara = Uchiha DNa..... and who did those eyes go to? Nagato Uzumaki.. someone with Senju dna.

 

[Chatte]

The reason i restated them is because they weren't covered. They were covered based on assumptions not on manga facts.
Kushina was brought especially for being a jinchuriki, yes. But there was no Senju clan there. And I doubt the village was gonna used the grandkids of the First Hokage.. lmao. Next best choice after the Senju are the Uzumaki.

Actually everything is about the Senju and Uchiha.
The protagonist represents the Senju.. lol while the antagonist reps the Uchiha.

Nagato was used by Madara why? cause he is from the senju linage.

There was no Senju? You realize you are wrong, right? Tsunade was still alive at that time and I am pretty sure Nawaki too. You say they won't make the grandkids of the first Hokage as Jinchuuriki, yet his wife was a Jinchuuriki. Who happened to be an Uzumaki. :|
Actually, not everything is. See, Naruto is associated indeed with the Senju but he is an Uzumaki. Doesn't this make you pose questions to yourself? Really now?
Sorry, but your arguments lack a strong basis, unlike what we already discussed here.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

And what is the problem being a off-branch? They were weaker then the Senju...
"The real contextual meaning" that is your assumption.

Lineage definitions (free-dictionary) :

1.
a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
b. Derivation.
2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

Lineage (Merriam-Webster dictionary):


a : descent in a line from a common progenitor
b : derivation
2
: a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; especially : such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder


The eyes of Madara = Uchiha DNa..... and who did those eyes go to? Nagato Uzumaki.. someone with Senju dna.

Lineage meant in context as Kinship:

kin·ship - 1. Connection by blood, marriage, or adoption; family relationship.
2. Relationship by nature or character; affinity.

Kushina said the Uzumakis and Senjus were relatives, not descendants. So in terms of context of Zetsu's statement in relation to Kushina's statement, then the contextual meaning of Lineage as Kinship is solidified.

And Madara's Rinnegan eyes both contain Uchiha and Senju DNA, he awakened it after he injected himself with Hashirama's cells, so why the need to implant it on someone who only had Senju blood? unless, he (Nagato) has both Uchiha and Senju Blood like how the Rinnegan was awakened.

 

[KingHashirama]

Lineage means in context as Kinship:

kin·ship - 1. Connection by blood, marriage, or adoption; family relationship.
2. Relationship by nature or character; affinity.

Kushina said the Uzumakis and Senjus were relatives, not descendants.

And Madara's Rinnegan eyes both contain Uchiha and Senju DNA, so why the need to implant it on someone who only had Senju blood? unless, he has both Uchiha and Senju Blood.

You can only be "relatives" if your related by blood. Also, which one is the most recent? Zetsu's statement or Kushina's statement? Zetsu's.

And we are focusing on the word "lineage" not "kinship" As you can there see is a big difference. And clearly Kishimoto didn't use the word "kinship" now did he.

Wrong, Senju Dna provides Chakra.. while the Uchiha Dna provides the Eyes. Rinnegan is unlocked by the combination of both.

Rinnegan as a eye is only effective with the body of a Senju. That is why he needed Nagato.

There was no Senju? You realize you are wrong, right? Tsunade was still alive at that time and I am pretty sure Nawaki too. You say they won't make the grandkids of the first Hokage as Jinchuuriki, yet his wife was a Jinchuuriki. Who happened to be an Uzumaki. :|
Actually, not everything is. See, Naruto is associated indeed with the Senju but he is an Uzumaki. Doesn't this make you pose questions to yourself? Really now?
Sorry, but your arguments lack a strong basis, unlike what we already discussed here.

No Senju as in no Senju CLAN. While there was the Uzumaki clan.... His wife was not MADE a jinchuriki.. she CHOSE herself to be the jinchuriki, so her hubby could fight Madara. Again, showing the relationships between their clans were that of branch and main clan. As zetsu said, Nagato is from the Senju linage.. and Nagato is from the Uzumaki clan, meaning Uzumaki are also from the Senju linage.


I'm talking about BLOOD, you guys are talking about clans. As far Naruto's blood is concerned he has Senju blood and is from that linage. Also, they had strong life forces I agree, but how do you explain the strongest life force shown in the manga , which was by none other then a Senju:

Spoiler

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My point: Uzumaki are Senju Blood, When its stated Senju + Uchiha = SO6P.. Uzumaki are counted as Senju.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

You can only be "relatives" if your related by blood. Also, which one is the most recent? Zetsu's statement or Kushina's statement? Zetsu's.

And we are focusing on the word "lineage" not "kinship" As you can there see is a big difference. And clearly Kishimoto didn't use the word "kinship" now did he.

Wrong, Senju Dna provides Chakra.. while the Uchiha Dna provides the Eyes. Rinnegan is unlocked by the combination of both.

Rinnegan as a eye is only effective with the body of a Senju. That is why he needed Nagato.

Clearly Kishimoto did not use the word descendants which would have settled this argument, so it's safe to assume that based on Kushina and Zetsu's statement that what they meant was that the Uzumakis and Senjus were relatives, of kin, not the latter stemming its' descent from the former. And the Rinnegan is effective in a body in the possession of both Senju and Uchiha DNA in one body, since the progenitor of both the Uchiha and Senju ancestors originally wielded the Rinnegan: The Sage of the Six Paths. The Rinnegan is both senju+uchiha dna, if it was pure uchiha then Madara would not have needed to inject Hashirama's cells, so the Rinnegan was awakened by the combination of both Uchiha and Senju DNA so it's only logical that the eye itself is composed of both Senju and Uchiha DNA

 

[2big]

very very nice im waiting for kishi to start releasing chapters about the sage of six paths and his sons that goes further in detail and explains the full story

 

[KingHashirama]

Clearly Kishimoto did not use the word descendant which would have settled this argument, so it's safe to assume that based on Kushina and Zetsu's statement that what they meant were the Uzumakis and Senjus were relatives, not the latter stemming its' descent from the former. And the Rinnegan is effective with the body in the possession of both Senju and Uchiha DNA in one body, since the progenitor of both the Uchiha and Senju ancestors originally wielded the Rinnegan: The Sage of the Six Paths. The Rinnegan is both senju+uchiha dna, if it was pure uchiha then Madara would not have needed to inject Hashirama's cells, so the Rinnegan was awakened by the combination of both Uchiha and Senju DNA so it's logical that the eye itself is composed of both Senju and Uchiha DNA

Clearly he did use the word "descendant".. its just you choose to ignore the definition of the word "Lineage" to support your theory.

What is Uchiha Dna? what did the Uchiha get from the SO6P? The EYES.

What is SEnju DNA? what did the Senju get from the SO6P? Strong Bodies.

The combination of both Body and Eyes unlocks the Rinnegan, which are a EYE. To control those eyes you need a SENJU BODY. How do you not understand this man?

 

[new sage of 6 paths]

King hashirama,you pose an invalid statement...
Ask yourself this,if there's truely some Dna present that could be transfered to an host,upon implanting,Naruto was given shisui's eye,why hasn't he awakened rinnegan!

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

Re: Rikudou and Uzumaki: Sealing Jutsus

+ rep for the effort bro (well organized, well explained BRAVO). am really sorry .... but i have to disagree (i did with the first person that said the SO6P was an uzumaki), i still believe that he was the founder and the teacher, he was the teacher who understood the flow of chakra and told people how it works (he gave them jutsu, with out his understanding of how the chakra works, they wouldn't have had any jutsu and that includes sealing jutsu), so even if there were clans at that time, they couldn't have been SHINOBI clans (with any kind of jutsu).
i see the points you made (great ones BTW) but you see ..... all of this can be understood in different ways

either :

- The uzumaki were simply senju (came after the SO6P) and i lean to that of course coz it doesn't raise too much questions.

- or you can say that they did exist (your theory) and had sealing jutsu before the SO6P did his legendary mythical thing (but that raises way to many questions than solving anything).

i have to disagree, because if this is true then :

Where did he get his legendary weapons from ?? were they uzumaki artefacts ??

How can a single UZUMAKI shinobi seal the juubi ?? was he some sort of a super uzumaki with super weapons from god knows where that took on the juubi (to have the audacity) all alone also WITHOUT NINJUTSU ?? so .... what,
he woke up one day in the uzumaki clan, decided that he will go and take on a destroyer of worlds ..... alone (when no one even dared to think about doing that, and that could be because they didn't have the means to do so like JUTSU) also what were they sealing at that time ??

Why wasn't that ever mentioned (not even hinted), and how can there be shinobi at that time (sealing jutsu is still a JUTSU preformed by shinobi, or people who understood chakra) when he was supposed to be the origin of shinobi and the GOD who brought peace to the world ?? and how did he separate the juubi into 9 parts, was that an uzumaki secret tech (to even come up with idea) ?? coz that doesn't seem like something a simple uzumaki jinchuriki can do (we would have seen more of it IF it was true and he was an uzumaki) .....

To me the uzumaki clan is simply senju that are gifted in the sealing techs (specialised in it) and it all started with UCHIHA and SENJU, i lean to this because it adds up instead of pointing out stuff without solving anything (whats the purpose) ..... so i don't know really but this uzumaki theory always made me ask more questions than ever and at some points didn't add up. as for the SO6P's origin .... i believe it was designed to simply be as mythical as it was presented (a god came a long who gave humanity hope).

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Clearly he did use the word "descendant".. its just you choose to ignore the definition of the word "Lineage" to support your theory.

What is Uchiha Dna? what did the Uchiha get from the SO6P? The EYES.

What is SEnju DNA? what did the Senju get from the SO6P? Strong Bodies.

The combination of both Body and Eyes unlocks the Rinnegan, which are a EYE. To control those eyes you need a SENJU BODY. How do you not understand this man?

That is why we are arguing the definition of lineage in the first place, it's not that I choose to ignore it, I am merely approximating the most correct interpretation of the word based on the coherency of both Zetsu and Kushina's statement in terms of context, Look, you only need to look at the chronological and biological development of the Rinnegan, if they were awaken by combining both Senju and Uchiha DNA, then the DNA composition itself of the Rinnegan must absolutely be both of Senju and Uchiha DNA, if they are both Senju and Uchiha DNA, and are awakened and wielded with the combination of both (Madara), then the successive bearer of the Rinnegan must also possess both Uchiha and Senju DNA, and no, the Rinnegan is not purely Uchiha DNA like you say it is, it is both Uchiha and Senju, so logically, its' wielder like Madara who had both Uchiha and Senju DNA, must pass it to someone who has both Senju and Uchiha DNA prior to giving the Rinnegan itself, which is Nagato through his Uzumaki heritage, who has Senju DNA and almost certainly has Uchiha DNA within it.

 

[Micho22]

Than what is about the dojutsu

 

[KingHashirama]

That is why we are arguing the definition of lineage in the first place, it's not that I choose to ignore it, I am merely approximating the most correct interpretation of the word based on the coherency of both Zetsu and Kushina's statement in terms of context, Look, you only need to look at the chronological and biological development of the Rinnegan, if they were awaken by combining both Senju and Uchiha DNA, then the DNA composition itself of the Rinnegan must absolutely be both of Senju and Uchiha DNA, if they are both Senju and Uchiha DNA, and are awakened and wielded with the combination of both, then the bearer of the Rinnegan must also possess both Uchiha and Senju DNA, and no, the Rinnegan is not purely Uchiha DNA like you say it is, it is both Uchiha and Senju, so logically, its' wielder like Madara who had both Uchiha and Senju DNA, must pass it to someone who has both Senju and Uchiha DNA prior to giving the Rinnegan itself, which is Nagato through his Uzumaki heritage, who has Senju DNA and almost certainly has Uchiha DNA within it.

But why are you ARGUING THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD LINEAGE... lol. The word linage refers to descending to a specific ancestry... which PROVES what Kushina said.

Bro, do you understand what i'm saying at all? I stated you must have the Senju Dna and the Uchiha dna to UNLOCK the rinnegan.. lol. Just like you need to be a Uchiha to UNLOCK the sharingan...

Uchiha : EYES

SENJU : BODY

Combination of Eyes and Body = RINNEGAN. This is already explained.

Madara's eyes = Uchiha DNA

However you need a Senju DNA to controll the RINNEGAN.... otherwise a Uchiha by itself would be good enough.

 

[KingHashirama]

King hashirama,you pose an invalid statement...
Ask yourself this,if there's truely some Dna present that could be transfered to an host,upon implanting,Naruto was given shisui's eye,why hasn't he awakened rinnegan!

Naruto was never implanted. Reading the wrong chapter mate.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

But why are you ARGUING THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD LINEAGE... lol. The word linage refers to descending to a specific ancestry... which PROVES what Kushina said.

Bro, do you understand what i'm saying at all? I stated you must have the Senju Dna and the Uchiha dna to UNLOCK the rinnegan.. lol. Just like you need to be a Uchiha to UNLOCK the sharingan...

Uchiha : EYES

SENJU : BODY

Combination of Eyes and Body = RINNEGAN. This is already explained.

Madara's eyes = Uchiha DNA

However you need a Senju DNA to controll the RINNEGAN.... otherwise a Uchiha by itself would be good enough.

It is merely conjecture in your part, she said relatives, not descendants, and which Zetsu says as "lineage" which could or could not mean descendant, then by the application of Occam's Razor, the intended meaning of "lineage" is most certainly Kinship. and no, Madara's eyes were originally pure Uchiha dna composition, but since he injected Senju DNA within him, then it only follows through biochemical process that the Rinnegan is both Senju and Uchiha DNA, you seem to be under the assumption that the Rinnegan eye of Madara is still purely Uchiha DNA after awakening it, that's wrong, they are both the dna composition of the Uchiha's and the Senju's, and the control and wielding of the Rinnegan does not entail the requirement upon the sole possession of Senju DNA only but by both. Uchiha and Senju DNA. Look at this logically, the genetic material of both the Uchiha and Senju ancestors came from where? the Sage of the Six Paths, therefore his genetic composition contains both Senju's and Uchiha's, and since the original Rinnegan was his, then the genetic dna composition of the Rinnegan eye contains both senju and uchiha dna. So it only follows, that this awakened Rinnegan by Madara must be of the same biological and genetic composition of the original Rinnegan: The Sage's eyes. which is the unified DNA of the Senjus and Uchihas combined.

 

[new sage of 6 paths]

The funniest thing is that derp actually broke it down to simpler form,but debaters are not simplifyng their points,they are only confusing themselves
Like someone actually saying "no uzumaki is that op"
And also
no uber duper seal comes from the Uzumaki!
really?have you seen RDS
kushina have the same ability as Gedo
Why is it that you have to put an Uzumaki mask on your face while standing infront of the uchiha tablet before summoning the RDG
Kakashi having a sharingan doesn't mean he has uchiha Dna...if he does,he won't faint anytime he uses kamui,would he?
Seriously kishi has always proved to us anything can happen in his manga.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

And also, if the Uzumakis were a branch relative of the main Senju line, wouldn't have Kushina specified that? "We Uzumakis are descended from the great Senju Clan" but all she said was "The Uzumakis and Senjus are relatives" wouldn't it be more grammatically and contextually correct to point out that your off-branch clan came from your main branch one? she is talking of the Uzumakis and Senjus as relatives of equal footing, not inferior or descended from the Senjus in any way.